MITSUBISHI HC5, new 3D SXRD projector based on HC9000 2500 euros - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 226 Old 05-21-2013, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I meant to clarify this, my JVC RS-45 has no noise to speak of, but I saw a rather noisy scene in the source and all I meant by my comments was that the Mits highlighted it less or handled it better than the RS-46 I saw at the time. The JVC's are not noisy projectors compared to others on really clean sources, they are just not quite as good as the best PJ's are at cleaning up poor sources. Usually I find DLP's (depending on the DLP) maintain a punchier image in noisier sources or noise-ridden movies (even some Blurays have too much noise). The DLP might show the noise as well, but it seems to fight through it in a smoother manner. I would say the JVC's are at least average or slightly better than average at dealing with noise. On most blurays, the content is too clean to even make a differential judgement call between two projectors, I have to use intentionally poor blurays that show noise to tell. If you had a really noisy JVC, perhaps it was a bad sample.

I am not like some in here and always having to watch everything on Bluray (oh I wish I could, but do not have the patience to always wait). Heck, I watched Ep 1 of Continuum on Netflix, and the PQ was bareable (I know I know, it's horrible, it'll kill you watching Netflix on a projector, it'll cause stomach pains and headaches). That said, I rarely watch Netflix as it is a major degradation on PQ, but it make me appreciate those Blurays that much more.

What I really liked about the Mits, well the processing just seemed more solid, not sure how to explain it. I would not call the JVC noisy at all. I am not 100% I actually liked the Mits more if I equalized all factors, I mean 45 minutes is hardly enough time, but I do get bored owning the same projector and am inclined to switch it up for fun. I would need at least 4 hours in my own room to be honest, unless a projector really whips another one, it takes a few hours of comparisons. The problem comparing the RS-46 and Mits hc9000d for me was they are VERY close in PQ, so I kind of used some extremes to quickly eliminate one or the other. That said, I don't know if it was the focus, the screen or what, but the Mits seemed to have slightly better pixel smoothness for lack of a better word (sharp but smooth, almost like halfway between e-shift kind of effect).

Perhaps that was my imagination, but I tried smile.gif

There is no doubt this is the best 2D projector ever under $2000, I mean people that got this projector for $600 less than a new Epson, and this is in an entirely different league compared to the Epson in 2D PQ.

It must have been something specific to the DLA-X3 and RS40 then.

HomeTheater.com's Review:
Quote:
The only downside I saw was some minor noise that appeared in gray ramps and color bars. This was pretty obvious with test patterns, but I couldn’t see it with real-world material. I would guess this is a dithering issue that’s related to whatever JVC is doing to eliminate the motion artifacts, but it’s hard to say. It certainly didn’t affect normal viewing with either 2D or 3D playback.

Trusted Review:
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Perhaps as a result of its extra brightness/contrast, the X3’s pictures also look sharper and more detailed than those of all previous entry-level JVC projectors - maybe even all previous DLA projectors period, bar the HD990/HD950.

There’s a minor downside to this in the shape of a touch more video noise. But this is seldom even slightly distracting from any sort of sensible distance. And in any case, it’s a fair price to pay for the increased image punch and colour richness.

If you sit close enough or you have a large enough screen you can see the noise on solid backgrounds during real video footage and it was really bad in a HTPC setup when web browsing. I know I could see it. Glad to see they have fixed this issue.

This is what it looked like (this is not my video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKOPtGpe4b4

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post #182 of 226 Old 05-21-2013, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

It kinda hurts when you kill time to write something useful and it gets ignored. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428712/mitsubishi-hc5-new-3d-sxrd-projector-based-on-hc9000-2500-euros/150#post_23336879

Elix, I completely missed the part where you measured input lag eek.gif I got distracted by the screen shots biggrin.gif Thanks for the measurements!
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post #183 of 226 Old 05-22-2013, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKOPtGpe4b4

Oh wow, yah my Rs-46 comparison was nothing like that (nor is my RS-45). I was in magnifying glass videophile mode when I said the noise was more. That said sometimes I do notice a VERY VERY slight texture to the image on the JVC's that I do not always notice on other projectors, but then again I only notice it if A/B'n and not when watching movies. I don't know, this stuff gets to the point where you need to see a psych doc if you do this too often.

It's funny too about what I said on HTPC text of the JVC RS-45 vs. Benq w7000, I got used to the Benq's text and am fine with it. If I switch back to the JVC now, I don't really like the JVC text clarity more at the moment. Very strange I know, but sometimes it is just about what you are used to rather than what you see. That said, if I spend 2+ hours in HTPC on the JVC and switch back to the Benq, it takes me a while to re-adjust to the Benq's HTPC text.

This is why comparing PJ's is so hard, and why it is optimal to spend a few days even rather than hours, or minutes. Still there are certain PJ's I can know within 10 minutes I like more or less than certain other PJ's (sometimes).



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post #184 of 226 Old 05-22-2013, 12:05 AM
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Yeah, I mean, he's very close to the screen but you could see the noise from a normal seating distance on certain types of material. Most of the time though, it wasn't an issue.

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post #185 of 226 Old 05-22-2013, 12:35 AM
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Thanks Elix for taking a look and posting those reviews. I read through them and at least cine4home.de noticed the same thing as me: "Man sollte die Iris aber auf keinen Fall mehr als halb schließen, da sie sonst erhebliches Shading provoziert (vgl. Kapitel 3.10)." and chapter 3.10, "Nach wie vor das größte Thema dieser Rubrik ist das vielbekannte „Shading“, eine ungleichmäßige Farbtemperatur über das Bild bzw. regionale Farbwolken. Grundsätzlich hat jeder 3Chip Projektor solch ein Shading, das zudem auch einer gewissen Serienstreuung unterliegt, es sollte aber bei guten Geräten in einem unmerklichen Bereich liegen. Bei den von uns gesichteten HC9000-Seriengeräten gab es gewisse Shading-Toleranzen, die mit einer Ausnahme im unbedenklichen Bereich lagen. Unschön ist, dass die manuelle Iris weitgehend geschlossen Shading provoziert, man sollte sie daher nicht mehr als halb schließen."

So they also found that you can't shut the iris more than half way without ugly "shading" (I didn't know that this shading was "vielbekannte" well-known). I thought I read some users saying they shut it to 16, which is where it would work nicely for me (since it gets the black level really low), but I can't imagine they could have appreciated the discoloration I am seeing. All things told, if this projector simply can't have the iris closed more than half-way, I am fine with that, I just want to make sure my unit isn't defective and in need of repair. When I bumped the iris up to 9 the other night I was very pleased with the image I got (though it was just a bit bright since the projector is still quite new). Also, even if what I am seeing is normal for the projector I wouldn't dissuade others from purchasing it, just pretend that the iris can't close any further than 9 and you will be very happy (especially for the price). As you can see from my pics above, there is no discoloration once the iris is half open or more.


Hello! I also have a hc5 since a few month and I can somewhat confirm your problems with the iris. However on my unit discolorations are nit that severe, since I can clamp it down to 14 and I barely see shading whereas it is completely gone whean I clamp it to 12. When I clap it down to 18 I have severe shading plus some small shading dots that would look like dust. This was also seen on a hc9000:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254103/lightbox/
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post #186 of 226 Old 05-22-2013, 12:54 AM
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For some reason this topic is completely ignored: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467628/official-mitsubishi-hc5-owners-thread Let's discuss projector-specific issues there.
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post #187 of 226 Old 05-22-2013, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steak2 View Post

Hello! I also have a hc5 since a few month and I can somewhat confirm your problems with the iris. However on my unit discolorations are nit that severe, since I can clamp it down to 14 and I barely see shading whereas it is completely gone whean I clamp it to 12. When I clap it down to 18 I have severe shading plus some small shading dots that would look like dust. This was also seen on a hc9000:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254103/lightbox/

thanks for the info. I'd like to know how common this is, 3DMaven's projector imo is severe and should be returned. I have an HC5 arriving soon, I'll check this out and report in. I am very sensitive to white / gray field uniformity issues since I have a large high power screen which makes it stand out.


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post #188 of 226 Old 05-22-2013, 11:25 PM
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I confirm steak2's findings. The same's for me: I can clamp down to 14 and can hardly see any discoloration (well, maybe I can but it's very faint). However on 18 it's severe, like on 3DMaven's photos. Well, 18 is too dim and is useless for me anyway. I'm watching on 9-12 now and the brightness/contrast is outstanding.
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post #189 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 10:27 AM
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I am guessing this is just a phenomenon that occurs from the 3 chip design when not enough light is present in the light prism. One way to test whether the iris is causing the problem, or the lack of light, is to put it in low lamp mode and see if it occurs sooner then if it is at high lamp mode. Mine should be coming today and I too will test this. Will report back soon!
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post #190 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 11:17 AM
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I tested your hypothesis and it proved to be false.

P.S. I watch it on Normal lamp mode and tried on High lamp for the sake of the test. No difference.
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post #191 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 11:41 AM
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So it has to be the iris. Does anyone know if they are using the "diamond" iris in this? Interesting how cine4home did not bring this issue up during their tests confused.gif
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post #192 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 12:31 PM
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The iris is square shaped, rotated 45°.
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post #193 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

So it has to be the iris. Does anyone know if they are using the "diamond" iris in this? Interesting how cine4home did not bring this issue up during their tests confused.gif
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

The iris is square shaped, rotated 45°.

I love that the answer to the question as to whether the iris was diamond shaped was that it is square rotated 45º. How's that for AVS forum precision?
The cine4home review of the HC-9000 does mention the discoloration with the iris clamped more than half-way. They don't offer any pictures of the "shading", but the tenor of their prohibition of closing it more than half-way (auf keinen Fall) is pretty strong. It sounds like my unit may be par for the course, or just a bit worse than others, it is perfect at 9 and lower, fairly good at 12, watchable at 14, and then goes downhill from there.
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post #194 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 01:03 PM
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I should have tested that, but didn't think to because the Mits hc9000d I saw already had some hours on the lamp and was projecting onto a 120" screen, hence it would have been too dim that far down (and I had very limited time). The unit I saw was basically a left over demo model, he wanted $2,800 for it, no thanks. I offered $1,600 and he refused, so I left. Why would I pay $2,800 when I can get it new for $1,800 on ebay.

Check the hc9000d thread for more info on the IRIS issue, I bet it's there, no?

I have a lead on a demo model of an RS-55 with 1200 hours on it (man that's a lot, but it comes with a new lamp), but I'm offering a really low amount. Haven't heard back yet, but I suppose I will get denied again. I think these dealers try to get too much for demo models.



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post #195 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 02:06 PM
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Ok so my HC5 came today biggrin.gif Set it all up and all I can saw is...WOW. This is coming from an RS-40 btw. There are a few things that stood out immediately. First, when setting it up I noticed the lens appeared "dirty". I used a lens cloth and now its crystal clear. When I turned it on immediately I was impressed by the sharpness. Much sharper then the RS-40. Sharpness is my first concern with picture quality so if I'm happy with the sharpness then it is excellent. I put in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and the colors just jumped off the screen. It is very apparent that the ANSI contrast is much higher then the RS-40. It is also noticeably brighter. Shadow detail excellent, motion handling excellent, image processing is top notch and the overall picture is just incredible. My panel convergence is virtually perfect with the green just being a hair low. I did not calibrate it, just used Cinema, 6500k, with filter on. There are a few areas where the JVC does beat the HC5. For starters, black level. Not that it is night and day, but it is noticeable. Another area is fan noise. In low lamp mode the JVC is much more silent, but on high lamp mode they are almost the same. Another area is picture uniformity. On my RS-40, there was no color shift on a solid white screen. With the HC5 there is just enough to be noticeable if your looking for it on a solid white screen. As for the iris discoloration, it is there and I can tell the iris is to blame. At "14" the discoloration is apparent. If you look close at the lens you can see reflections off of the iris that bounce around in the lens that are the same color as the discoloration. Overall, the HC5 in my eyes beats the RS-40. I have not tested 3d but I am sure it is excellent as it is with the HW50.
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post #196 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 02:24 PM
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It sounds like that RS40 was a dud, was it calibrated? we can't compare 2 projectors from memory without a direct A/ B config and an even calibration.

That iris situation might bother me, curious to see this in person. Color uniformity stands out big time on my large HP screen.


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post #197 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 02:26 PM
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Zombie, with lamp in low at "10" iris the brightness is perfect on my 132" screen in a completely blacked out theater. My RS-40 was not a dud, it was actually a very good sample. I compared it to another RS-40 and they were similar with mine having better convergence.
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post #198 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 02:27 PM
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Also, why get a HP then use an iris? If you want to dim the picture I would get a screen with a lower gain.
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post #199 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 02:48 PM
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Because the HP screen gives you that much more room for brightness, and closing the IRIS down increases contrast. So the HP screen gives you more brightness and more contrast with most LCOS projectors. This also means longer lasting lamps at a brighter range for a given time period, and the ability to open the IRIS for 3D and have that many more foot lamberts coming off the HP. It does concern me that the Mits with the IRIS clamped all the way down has that much off-color, I did not notice this on the unit I tested (but I don't remember completely clamping the IRIS).

I think the Mits beats the RS-46 ever so slightly except blacks, but not necessarily the RS48+/RS-55+ (e-shift complicates it), and I did have the RS-46 and Mits hc9000d in an A/B (5-10 second back and forth), so it surely doesn't surprise me that he thought it beat the RS-40. I do not think the ANSI contrast was remarkably noticeable, but I did have to tweak the RS-46 BY EYE so the gamma so that 5-30 IRE wasn't crushing, and then again from 70-100 IRE to get them to look closer in bright scenes. I do admit the Mits looked a tad more refined in bright scenes, perhaps some of it was ANSI contrast, but I think it was processing mostly.

Though I do agree calibrating with the meter is much better, I don't like doing that at a dealer (it would be terribly embarrassing). I've done this enough to be able to get two projectors close to each other by eye. I can't get them at rec709 by eye, but what I can do is get the color differences to be non-visible between each other.

If anything, the reason I think the Mits wins is it actually seems to have slightly better processing and the image looks a tad more solid. Think of it sort of like, a 1/4 to halfway as prominent e-shift effect. In my comparison, the two projectors had the same sharpness, almost identical, the Mits might have edged it out ever so slightly, but let's call it identical because that's what it really was from viewing distance.



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post #200 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 02:58 PM
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What environment did you evaluate the HC9000 and RS46? Was it a light controlled, blacked out room?

How much time did you spend with these in a direct A/B?


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post #201 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 03:03 PM
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45 minutes to an hour, I was rushed but it is what it is. Yes, light controlled but the ceiling was painted a light gray, and I didn't like the red walls and bright red seats either smile.gif

I said many times before, it wasn't as good as yours will be, because I couldn't take it home with me. I am just saying I am not surprised that it in some ways could be considered to look better, at least from the time I had. Also keep in mind once you've been doing this as long as we have (I started comparing projectors 6 years ago much like you did), so I have some tricks. Heck, I saw the Benq w6000 at Fry's and immediately called the black level comparisons by others invalid as did you. So I can tell some stuff fast, what is much harder is because these two projectors are VERY close in quality (RS 46 and Mits).

I wish I could go right back and look at color uniformity more carefully, but the dealer is in another city. If I could, I would (well I could, but it's a long drive, if someone wants to pay my gas). I saw no color uniformity issue on the Mits I tested, well it had bright corners but BARELY, less than my RS-45 for sure.

The JVC is still going to win for those super dark movies, but at least the Mits puts out respectable blacks.



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post #202 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 03:24 PM
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it sounds like it responds well to calibration. Curious to see how close it looks to the VW95. My main deciding factory between the VW95 / RS55 was e-shift. I thought the JVC was more naturally sharp though. It was hard to get a clearly defined pixel structure on the Sony. I don't think it was the lens, likely the design of the SXRD panel.

can you get a clear pixel definition on the Mitsubishi?


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post #203 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 03:28 PM
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Yah, the way the pixels come out were similar looking on both projectors. This was a non-issue, it almost looked like the lens on the Mits was the same one JVC uses :P

I did try 3D, but please don't make me comment on it, I tried it for a whole 2-4 minutes. I was trying to buy the projector, I was frustrated after my JVC lamp blew, that's why I wanted to go buy it, but I thought I could get him under $2000 and I couldn't.

I am not sure how well it responds to calibration by the meter, but I was able to get the two projectors looking CLOSE enough to each other for a comparison to where the color did not look off.



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post #204 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 03:42 PM
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Ive been in the front projection hobby since 2006 so I have seen many, many projectors. The lens in the JVC is not anything like the mits, that is for sure. When I check for sharpness, I stand face to face from the screen and look at pixel structure. The mits has a higher visibility of the pixel structure then the JVC, which I am sure is attributed to the lens. Sharpness comes from how well the lens can display each individual pixel. Now, being LCoS, you can be 2 feet from the screen at 100" and not see any SDE. My personal opinion is that the very slight higher black level of the mits over the JVC is worth it considering all else. For the 1799 shipped that you can get this on ebay, the mits is untouchable.
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post #205 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

Ive been in the front projection hobby since 2006 so I have seen many, many projectors. The lens in the JVC is not anything like the mits, that is for sure. When I check for sharpness, I stand face to face from the screen and look at pixel structure. The mits has a higher visibility of the pixel structure then the JVC, which I am sure is attributed to the lens. Sharpness comes from how well the lens can display each individual pixel. Now, being LCoS, you can be 2 feet from the screen at 100" and not see any SDE. My personal opinion is that the very slight higher black level of the mits over the JVC is worth it considering all else. For the 1799 shipped that you can get this on ebay, the mits is untouchable.

Sharpness comes from multiple things, first the lens assembly accuracy, then the uniformity or quality of the parts in the assembly as it diverges through the optical path, then the convergence. The JVC lens is very refined if you get a good sample. The Mits lens is also very refined. If you get a projector with sub-optimal convergence, what happens is the spacing between the mirrors gets overlapped by another color (the color's own lack of a border), then it projects that color over the edge of the pixel fill. This was discussed in extreme length in another thread, so this doesn't mean there are 3 separate pixel grids (there is not because one color projecting over a border does not form a new border), but it can make that border look less refined.

So yes in some cases convergence can make a lens appear like the lens itself is bad (though usually it has to be off quite a bit). However, the lens assembly itself can also be variably bad (which is why some DLP's of the same model are better than others). Any of those three things (bad lens assembly, cheap parts in the lens or cheap lens itself, or bad alignment). Of course there is also rumors that some of these projectors like the Sony have a plastic lens, though I don't believe it's really pure plastic, it's some type of resin-based material (which is cheaper than glass). The point is whatever is true, well that's my assessment of what I saw. The Mits was not considerably sharper than the RS-46 I saw, it looked very similar at the pixel level with perhaps the Mits having the edge. That is my honest assessment.

My RS-45 is a golden sample, the RS-46 I saw was a very good sample, but not golden.



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post #206 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 04:07 PM
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Both projectors throw excellent pictures. My point is that JVC cant compete because of price. Not only does the mits throw a better picture (highly subjective), but its much less expensive. Also if 3D is a concern, im sure the mits will out perform the jvc.
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post #207 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 04:09 PM
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AVS has some good deals on JVC's, and the JVC's have better blacks, but at least from what I saw, I think I agree that the Mits is the better VALUE at the moment. However, it is also an e-bay purchase, and most would probably buy from AVS. Still, the Mits is amazing for its current price and can easily keep up with (and perhaps in some ways) even beat some of the lower-end JVC's. We'll need Zombie to A/B against his Rs-55 before we can say much else.



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post #208 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 04:14 PM
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unless something drastically changed from the x-talk patterns I've seen on the HC9000 from Kraine, I don't think it will beat the current JVC's in 3D. JVC did a surprisingly good job masking the x-talk this year with the updated firmware on the RS46 and shipping firmware on the 4810.

I have an inside that there are very few HC5's left from Mitsubishi so folks better get them now if they want one.


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post #209 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 04:26 PM
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@UFO
BTW, I was not disagreeing with you on your sharpness comparison. My only point was we have to be careful due to sample variance, and both Z and I have seen many many JVC's, so we know what it's supposed to look like with a golden sample.

@3D
I commented on it earlier in another thread, from the 3 minute test I did in 3D, the Mits appeared to be very similar to the RS-45 in 3D, but not as good as the RS-46. I'd guess halfway between, but the Mits was dimmer in 3D than the JVC (mainly because the Mits had a lot more hours on it), so I couldn't actually say for sure either way. This is hardly conclusive which is why I wasn't going to say anything.

I don't care about 3D that much anymore on any NON-DLP, so with limited time I'm going to ignore it in a test. The Epson is the best non-DLP at 3D I still think (and I've spent more time on Epson than some), but I have two issues with Epson's 3D. One is that as that lamp passes 500-1000 hours, that ghosting starts getting much more visible. # 2 is the Epson still has enough X-talk to be a major problem in 3D games, though I only tried X3-Terran Conflict and The Witcher 2 briefly on the Epson, they were both problematic compared to the Benq.

I am not a huge gamer, but so far the only game I've even liked 3D in was X3: Albion Prelude / Terran Conflict. Flying into a space dock gives you an almost Treky feel like you are controlling a movie, but even then I can't play it forever like that. If anyone wants to see some super-cool looking Space 3D, I highly recommend Albion Prelude, but you do have to install some non-included custom 3D mods to fix the hud. I just cannot take playing any other game in 3D thus far (well Flight Simulator X was kind of neat in 3D now that I think about it), but that's it. Though again, I haven't played many games (maybe 10 in 2 years for a few hours total).



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post #210 of 226 Old 05-23-2013, 04:57 PM
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Ok so update. After a few hours of use, the discoloration with the iris fully closed is gone eek.gif On a completely white screen, iris at 18, it is almost perfect other then the slight color shift that is there regardless of iris position.
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