Offical JVC DLA-RS4810 Owners Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 08:17 AM
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It would help in terms of correcting the pincushion, but like keystone I would expect it to reduce resolution in doing so. I had a quick play with it and only needed 1 or 2 clicks to completely lose pincushion on my screen (I normally just overspill the border slightly). I didn't leave it there and haven't checked with any test patterns to see what the effect is in terms of resolution loss or other side effects on test patterns.

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post #542 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I haven't checked but is it possible to run this advance colour check using the automatic function somehow or at least having the Lumagen generate the patterns for it?
If you have setup the Lumagen as your signal generator, then it will generate the correct test patterns for this.

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post #543 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 12:09 PM
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Thanks Tom, I had a feeling it would be the case. I'll have to try doing this next time I have the calibration gear out. smile.gif

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post #544 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

because of some damage during the hurricane, I now have to do some repairs to the house.The roofer is doing his thing tomorrow (reflashing the blown off flashing around the chimney), then the plasters and painters for where the water came in, then the cedar siding people where some siding on an outside curved wall buckled out. Then we shoot the virtual tour video and start showing our house. I won't buy a house in sarasota until we sell the present one her in MD.All this wil take about 6 weeks.
Good golly...well at least it is still standing AND your Sony 1000ES didn't get damaged.....whew....always something though....

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post #545 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Oh Mark... had no idea you were hit with the storm! eek.gif
Hope you and you family are able to get through everything with minimal disruption this holiday season!
+1 to what Geof said . . .Happy holidays my friend!! smile.gif

We really were only minimally hit. We didn't see or feel the damage until several days after. Nothing a modest amount of money can't fix.

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post #546 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

If you have setup the Lumagen as your signal generator, then it will generate the correct test patterns for this.

You just tell Chromapure you want the lumagen to generate the color patterns and then of course chromapure adjusts the settigs in the Lumagen when you are doing autocal.

I of course confused L or intensity with saturation. The cube used for 7 point calibration using the lumagen patterns is 100 saturation which selectable L or intensity. Use of 75% intensity is recommended. Auto cal at least for 125 points uses a smaller cube whose extremetries are at 75% saturation , not 100%. By definition the 125 point is calibration of multiple points of varying saturation within the cube and for that matter outside the cube for sats abov75% but within the maximum saturations of the 100% sat space. Inthe case of Red and Blue in the graphs above, sats are above 100% and the Lumagen CMS can reel them in. green is undersaturated and the Lumagen can't increase that . Points within the 75% sat auto cal cubebut between any two of the 125 points or so and siply interpolated. Points outside the cube are mathematically generated differently, extrapolated I think isd the word, and they MAY not exactly match what one woud get with a 100% sat space but better accuracy is achieved for sats at 755 or below, 'the way I understand it pending the next round of clarification.

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post #547 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 07:30 PM
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Received & installed my 4810.

Thanks to Mike and AVS for the great service, pricing and attention to you're customers.

Previous projector: RS40. Screen: Da-Lite JKP .9 gain( no interest in 3D)

When my 4810 had already been shipped I considered returning it factory sealed to AVS and exchanging it for a 46.
Why? Due to the impression given by a few on this and other forums that 4k technology was basically some very expensive form of terrible looking digital sharpening.

With the 4k set on Film and controls on factory 50 50 50 my image quality is fabulous. Incredibly natural detail.Nothing even close to a cheap video look. The high resolution setting is just too detailed and noisy for my taste. Film setting is perfect. And at least with my dark(.9) screen the factory settings are just right. Impressive amount of detail w/o noise. My calibrated RS40 can't come even close.
If I switch off the Eshift 2 the image is a bit softer than my RS40 but this is because the factory sharpness & detail settings when off are too low(0 0 0). But even if I raise the sharpness to the level of my RS40 it can't match the 4810 w/ Eshift on (50 50 50).

Some have expressed that 4k Eshift 2 can only be enjoyed if you own at least a big 120" screen and you watch at a close .5 to 1.3w distance.
Well the fantastic image quality that I described is on a Da-Lite JKP screen 92" diagonal and 80" w. Seating distance 1.5w
I'am positive that even smaller screens can benefit from Eshift 2 technology.
As Mike G. mentioned pixel structure can only be clearly seen at 12" from the screen(eshift off) but makes a huge difference at normal seating distances(eshift on).

I can't remember having seen any display that looked so good basically out of the box. No calibration until at least 50 hrs. on the lamp.
Colors and specially flesh tones are spot on. The new RS46 according to many owners also enjoys from having some really good factory set colors.

An RS40,45 or the new 46 by themselves look really good. And probably fantastic with the very affordable Darblet.

But if you can afford the 4810 go for it. It's fantastic and for the AVS pre-order price a great bargain considering it's performance and features.smile.gif
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post #548 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anjo1530 View Post


When my 4810 had already been shipped I considered returning it factory sealed to AVS and exchanging it for a 46.
Why? Due to the impression given by a few on this and other forums that 4k technology was basically some very expensive form of terrible looking digital sharpening.

With the 4k set on Film and controls on factory 50 50 50 my image quality is fabulous. Incredibly natural detail.Nothing even close to a cheap video look. The high resolution setting is just too detailed and noisy for my taste. Film setting is perfect. And at least with my dark(.9) screen the factory settings are just right. Impressive amount of detail w/o noise. My calibrated RS40 can't come even close.

The 4810 is more affordable than last years RS55, so more people will see it this year. Last year e-shift1 took the same heat until people saw it in person. Most RS55/X70 owner's liked the effect of e-shift. It is not the same as the Darbee device.The 4810's 'FILM' mode is very close to last year's e-shift 1 with MPC @ 2.

The pixel overlap creates a perception of increased contrast and detail from seating distance. Then a mild sharpening from the MPC for a great looking image.

jvc-eshift1.jpg
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post #549 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Well, I guess that there are several answers to this. One is that calibrating from either 100% or 75% intensity is a standard option in just about every calibration package I have ever used. Second, it is always better to sample more, rather than less, of the gamut. Third, many displays simply won't track well at 100% intensity. In such cases, 75% intensity is the obvious alternative. Fourth, 75% intensity is probably more typical of viewing material, though higher intensity is certainly not unheard of.
ChromaPure's Advanced Color Management option, which is what SOWK shows above, offers the opportunity to sample the color space at 4 levels of intensity, 4 levels of saturation, and then 4 levels of saturation at 3 levels of intensity. The 125-point calibration not only samples, but also corrects, at multiple levels of saturation and intensity throughout the entire gamut.

Thanks Tom. So in short... really nothing to fiddle with (worry about), when using CPure; especially if using the 125pt calibration routine. wink.gif

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post #550 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 10:06 PM
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I've expected that I won't see the pixel grid when enabling E-shift2 but I could see it even if it was smaller than the size of pixel grid with no eshift.
Does it mean there's something wrong with my 4810?
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post #551 of 1852 Old 12-19-2012, 10:19 PM
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post #552 of 1852 Old 12-20-2012, 04:56 AM
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Yes. barely visible but sometimes I could see the pixel grid noticeably based on the contents.
Btw, I hear more noise when Eshift is turned on but the picture quality forgives it smile.gif
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post #553 of 1852 Old 12-20-2012, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I just saw the pincushion button on the new JVC, I don't remember it on the last two JVCs. I know it always for a curve screen without an A-Lens but I want to know if it helps with having less distortion with less than a 2.0 throw ratio

Its idiotic. Just like electronic keystone correct. Keystone and pincushioning are obvious geometric artifacts that EVERYONE can see. So manufacturers provide electronic means of hiding them just as they provide electronic means of hiding misconvegence and CA. These means result in PQ deterioration but not in ways the average Joe will notice. The average Joe is so happy with making the visability of pincushioning etc go away, he just shuts up.

Do not use the electronic pin cushioning fix. Set up properly and overscan any residual pin cushioning.

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post #554 of 1852 Old 12-20-2012, 07:30 AM
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If the pixels are overlaping, how can you see the pixel grid? There is a difference in seeing the overlap edge which can be photographed but not the grid which is of course delineated by space between pixels and not the edges of one pixel sitting on another.

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post #555 of 1852 Old 12-20-2012, 08:13 AM
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As a new owner of a 4810 (coming from an RS15) could someone clarify the terminology for me, I'm a bit confused. Is the e-shift the 4K setup ? and is the MPC different. I'm sure it would be cleared if I was in front of the controls but am reading the thread offsite.
Thanks!

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post #556 of 1852 Old 12-20-2012, 09:29 AM
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Has anyone done convergence correction at 1/16th of a pixel? Seems like when I try the "fine" option it still shifts a lot more than 1/16th of a pixel at a time.

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post #557 of 1852 Old 12-20-2012, 11:20 AM
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When I first fired up the x55 it was noticeably noisier than an RS55 but only with eshift engaged. With the projector in the 2K mode "fan noise" was much quieter.
However, now that I have more hours on it the "eshift noise" has greatly subsided. Anyone else notice this?

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post #558 of 1852 Old 12-20-2012, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

Yes. barely visible but sometimes I could see the pixel grid noticeably based on the contents.
Btw, I hear more noise when Eshift is turned on but the picture quality forgives it smile.gif

I've heard about the noise from others, but this 4810 I have has no detectable changes in noise when engaging e-shift. Maybe something changed in the production line at some point, similar to the 3D emitter buzz on the HW50.
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post #559 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 09:28 AM
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My 4810 is the same with e-shift on as with it off. Fan kicks up a wee bit if I switch it to high lamp mode. Coming from from the Sharp XV12000 this projector is silent.

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post #560 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

It really does, especially with the JVCs black level. I'm sitting 1.2 SW from my 9ft wide screen and I'm loving it. I got a lot more comparisons though, didn't get a chance to do all of them before I left for work yesterday

I am curious and I am not trying to be argumentative. Why does a lower black reference value level let the Darblet's contribution shine? Aren't they completely different things? Maybe what you mean is higher on off but I would think the worse the on off the more the Darblet would contribute?

I do understand how the Darblet makes just about every projector look better no matter how crappy or good the projector may be. Your thoughts?

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post #561 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I haven't checked but is it possible to run this advance colour check using the automatic function somehow or at least having the Lumagen generate the patterns for it?

Obviously intensity and saturation can be set by the Lumagen . Of course the Lumagen can not raise the saturation above what the projector can provide Any calibration requires some sort of signal generator to provide the let's call them gray scale patterns from 0 to 100 so the color temperature across the gray scale can be set. Then color targets of the right value are necessary. These could be off a DVD or Bluray, off a signal generator, found in the projector, or provided by a signal processor. The lumagen can generate all the needed patterns including the generation of the correct targets for a 125 point color calibration. It can do IRE steps in increments of 5 allowing a 21 point gray scale calibration and I think the same number of point gamma calibration. Of course one can use less steps and points. Autocal is a computer program that takes humanality out of the questions. You set it up and the plane takes off, flies, and lands without further human intervention. It tells the Lumagen what pattern to generate, measures it, and then tells the Lumagen how to correct it by using repeated measurements for each click of adjustment until it measures right to within some measure of deviati which could vary by the run time specified by the designer or user if the user is allowed to determine run time, it does gray scale, CMS and gamma sequentially and let's you specify the order and it will repeat these because of the interactions between gray scale and say gamma.

One must remember that calibration involves some art as well as science. There is of course a theoretical end result for CMS and gray scale. There is none for gamma because there is no official gamma, its a personal preference and is the one of the three limited by the projector's on screen on off.


CMS is limited by what the projector can deliver at the primary points of the color space. If green is undersaturated, nothing can really be done to make the projector perform better. It is always better to select a starting color space (in the projector that has the correct primary saturations of ones oversaturated because the Lumagen can real them in. Generally one starts with a 7 point CMS and here the targets generated for the primaries and secondaries are at 100 . The intensity or luminance is selectable and generally the consensus is that after everything is done, overall best results are achieved by initially measuring and setting at 75%.

When you switch to 125 point CMS obviously using are measuring points most of which are not on the colorspace boundaries but are withing the boundaries. Obviously these points are by definition at less than 100% saturation. The sats vary by the color. So you can't specify a sat. But you can select intensities and you can (or the designer) can select a colorspace defined at a specific sat for the primaries. It is my understanding that the color space used by Lumsgen for 7 point is at 100% sat but the one for 125 point is at 75% sat. This gives them better results for points at 75% and below. This does not mean that points of great saturation are not set, the primary points are but those are extrapolated rather than actual. At least that is the way Lumagen explained it to me.

Basically, its all very easy to do but the few choices you make can vary the ultimate results slightly but do not let it drive you crazy. Take my advice. There is no 100% correct selections particularly when choosing the initial intensity or luminosity for the primaries. There is no specific gamma which is right but there are ones which are wrong and the only way to get it more correct is to emply a S curve that will let you have a more contrasting gamma which many find as a matter of preference more pleasing without crushing the blacks.


I am not a calibration expert and God knows if I am wrong in any of this, please engage.
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post #562 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 10:57 AM
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Thanks Mark. I'm already using the 125 point autocal, but I haven't bothered viewing the advanced colour results so I just wondered if the Lumagen could be used for this as a signal generator, which obviously it can seeing the response to my question. smile.gif

I know what you mean about calibration being a bit of art as I've had a few PMs discussing the autocal as it tends to give the impression you just have to push a button: Of course you can, but might not get very good results if you haven't done some intial setting up first, such as chosing the right colour space and setting the brightness, contrast and 100% whitebalance. Having been doing manual calibration for the past 4 years or so, I've got a reasonable idea of what to do and which gamma I prefer on each of my displays, so for me, just having to do these few basic setting first and then pressing the button is bliss...Kudos to Tom and Lumagen. cool.gif

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post #563 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

...
just having to do these few basic setting first and then pressing the button is bliss...Kudos to Tom and Lumagen. cool.gif

And let's not forget the good folks at SpectraCal. CalMAN does a good job too! smile.gif
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post #564 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I am curious and I am not trying to be argumentative. Why does a lower black reference value level let the Darblet's contribution shine? Aren't they completely different things? Maybe what you mean is higher on off but I would think the worse the on off the more the Darblet would contribute?
I do understand how the Darblet makes just about every projector look better no matter how crappy or good the projector may be. Your thoughts?

I was saying with JVCs black levels, the Darbee helps it shine. Not that the Darbee make the blacks better. Just the combination. Basically, it enhances the picture that is already great.
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post #565 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I was saying with JVCs black levels, the Darbee helps it shine. Not that the Darbee make the blacks better. Just the combination. Basically, it enhances the picture that is already great.

I totally agree it enhances the picture too and that it doesn't make the blacks any better (in the same way that a BluRay player can't make the blacks any better either despite some reviews claiming they do. rolleyes.gif)
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post

And let's not forget the good folks at SpectraCal. CalMAN does a good job too! smile.gif

Well it might do, but I've no need to try it since I'm happy with Chromapure. smile.gif

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post #566 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 12:48 PM
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Both offer great products.
But I still do not see the need for the lowest black value to maximize the enhancement of the Darblet. I am all in favor of low ref black levels and high on offs and high ANSI, but for example a really great lens on a projector or a really piss poor one might make the Darblet shine more than a low ref black level. I do not know about the extremes of lens quality and the Darblet. A lens that doesn't appear to be that sharp would appear sharper with a darblet and a sharp lens would be even sharper.

I tend to think the maximization would be with a poorer quality lens.

rememberwe are talking what makes the Darblet shine, not the other way around.

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post #567 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 07:29 PM
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So I finally got to play with my 4810. Out of the box this unit is great!!!!! "Ooooohhhh you Sneaky Mom" calibration is going to be incredible with 3DLUT!!!!!
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post #568 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 07:47 PM
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Yea. 125 point calibration will probably be unwatcheable in comparison I sincerely doubt in an A/B one could determine which one was being watched but 4000 plus points CMS will keep you off the street and out of possible slipping on a wet or icy sidewalk. smile.gif The incredibility won't change but buying a 3D light box for $600 will help the national economy. Perhaps this will become so pupular, the projector manufacturers will spend $40 or whatever bucks on an extremely large field gate array chip and buidt consumer addressable lut storage into their top of the line projectors. remember is the projectors uses the correct decoding algs and one sets just the three primaries correctly, no further calibration should be required.We keep adding more points, the secondarie to fix the use of the wrong algs. Everything else is wrong too, but only by a little. So we add a bunch more points accross the color space and then we stll generate the remaining ppoints between the more poits. Say one does 125 points, it might be no better, ), than just doing the primaries, if the correct formulas were used. Even with errors else,the correlation between the actual colors coded in the medium by the colorist and what the projector presents should be very very close. The incredibility of the projector won't change by calibration. The wow factor won't change. Just the colors will by a tiny tad and your brain just can't pick up tiny tiny changes. Besides the colors are completely screwed up because of the limiations of the color space. Many many colors can not be presented, those outside the triasngle, and the colorist had to change those colors to something the color space can ptresent. Not that's freekin incredible. When I tell friends this, they say not MY LCD it can do every color

Then you have a cheap ass meter trying to measure 4000 plus points accurately. And a cheap ass meter may be a calibrated one at say $600. Meters needed to accurately set 4000 points are really expensive. You would be better to buy a projector that used the right formulas instead of wasting your time setting 4000 points inaccurately to obtain changes that you will never see. Of course you could generate LUT tables that will really change the colors and my LUT table box contains tables to make the picture look better to ones eyes colorwise under adverse lighting conditions. But I never watch under such conditions so my box just sits in a corner.

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post #569 of 1852 Old 12-21-2012, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I was saying with JVCs black levels, the Darbee helps it shine. Not that the Darbee make the blacks better. Just the combination. Basically, it enhances the picture that is already great.

+1

It just seems to intensify the black areas around objects which I believe creates a perceived increase in contrast (thus the blacks are perceived as "better"?) wink.gif

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post #570 of 1852 Old 12-22-2012, 08:48 AM
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Hey everyone,

I am pretty happy with my new RS4810 but have one question. The unit I have has uniformly bright corners. I do not notice them when viewing most content, only on black or mostly black screens. The only time I have noticed it while watching content is when there is an intro or credits that are white in the middle of the screen. I do not seem to notice on dark screens with other stuff going on. Using the search function here only showed a few examples and the ones posted looked worse than what I have.

My concern is that I wonder if the bright corners reduce the contrast that I could be getting on the screen if they were not present.

Has anyone else thought this through?

AVS is willing to try to work with their supplier to exchange this unit if I can get some good documentation pictures to them but my camera and camera skills don't seem to be up to the task in my opinion. I think I can live with this (and some focus uniformity problems I have) if it isn't a really big problem. My calibrator has recommended I exchange it (of course he wants the best unit to work with), but I don't know if I want to hassle with it. He has not seen the pj in person, only going off of my description.

If the bright corners significantly reduce contrast I would probably go thru the hassle of exchanging it. If it is only an annoyance, I want to just let it go and enjoy the projector.

thanks for any and all opinions.

ed
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