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post #2071 of 2101 Old 02-13-2017, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
That was my gut feeling initially before I started seeking answers online. It will be a fun and educational experiment to compare both screens, though.
Actually by low gain I meant a so-called "negative gain" one, I.e. < 1.0.
It may be obvious that a lower gain screen will produce darker blacks along with a darker overall picture, but I'm referring to the case where the projector is re-adjusted to produce the same luminance on the screen. Even then the black will still be darker (and that was not obvious to me initially).
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post #2072 of 2101 Old 02-13-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Actually by low gain I meant a so-called "negative gain" one, I.e. < 1.0.
It may be obvious that a lower gain screen will produce darker blacks along with a darker overall picture, but I'm referring to the case where the projector is re-adjusted to produce the same luminance on the screen. Even then the black will still be darker (and that was not obvious to me initially).
Interesting. I'd have to find a negative gain floor pull up screen. I think DNP makes a floor pull up Supernova screen, but it's only 80 inches. I think a 1.2 gain 90 inch screen is a good sweet spot for size / blacks.

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post #2073 of 2101 Old 02-13-2017, 06:22 PM
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You might also try to get screen samples if they are offered.
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post #2074 of 2101 Old 02-14-2017, 01:16 AM
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Delivery estimate is now Monday even though it's Amazon Prime. Sigh.

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post #2075 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 12:51 PM
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I was able to perform extensive testing and measurements on both screens and I'm still torn on which one to keep.

The candidates are an 87 inch 1.3 gain Celexon Mobile Professional Plus and a 90 inch 2.2 gain Da-Lite Deluxe Insta-Theater. Calman Enthusiast and an i1 Display 3 Pro were used for all measurements.

With regards to black level, the Celexon wins hands down according to my eyes and my meter. On an all black field, my meter was unable to get a read on the Celexon, meaning that it was below its .001 threshold. The Da-Lite measured .0022. On later readings, they both measured .0022, so not sure what happened there.

As far as brightness goes, with the iris fully closed and contrast at 0 using Film picture mode and HDMI Standard, the Celexon measured at 12ftl on an all white field. The Da-Lite was around 18ftl under the same conditions and seemed much too bright for my taste.

I attempted to perform a calibration on each screen, but I'm positive that the light being reflected by the walls was affecting my readings, as I could not get the grayscale remotely close to linear. Gamma was even worse, as even with the 2.4 preset, it measured around 1.9 in low to medium stimulus, then dipped to 1.0 on high end. I used full fields for measurements, not sure if window patterns are preferred for projectors.

With content, the Celexon definitely had a more plasma like look due to its lower light output (which I prefer). The difference in black level was not as great as I initially thought, as black gets washed out on both screens during medium to bright scenes, which leads me to believe that a grey negative gain screen may be my best bet moving forward. A previous poster mentioned that using a high gain screen like the Da-Lite would make artifacts more visible. Not sure what is meant by artifacts, but I do see dark bands on the middle of the Da-Lite on overly bright scenes, with a white field being the worst case scenario and some bright sparkle like things in the center of the screen.

This should make the Celexon the slam dunk winner right? Well, the Celexon's build quality is not as good as the Da-Lite. It is much more heavier to carry around. The size difference between the two is more noticeable than I thought because I can't get the picture to use up all of the Celexon's screen real estate, as I run out of room on the top and bottom but end up with a one inch gap each side. On the Da-Lite, I can dial the picture up to occupy the entire screen up to all four borders. Further, I can't get the right vertical edge of the image to line up exactly parallel to the right vertical border of the Celexon screen, with the top of the image being about half an inch closer to the border than the bottom inch.

I attempted to get a lower peak light output to 14ftl on the Da-Lite by lowering contrast to -15 using HDMI Standard. Is this an acceptable way to accomplish this? Or is the Da-Lite's peak light output floor limited to what I get with the iris fully closed and contrast at 0? Would switching to HDMI enhanced and lowering contrast help? I'm trying to make it dimmer but not squash my contrast ratio.

If the Da-Lite's floor is limited to simply closing down the iris, then I think I'm going to return both and just use my wall as a screen until I have my own place to able to hang a fixed screen. I found a 0.95 gain grey 92 inch fixed screen from Silver Ticket for $350 ($200 for 1.0 gain grey), which I think would provide much better performance the the two portable screen and better bang for my buck.

Thoughts?

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post #2076 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I was able to perform extensive testing and measurements on both screens and I'm still torn on which one to keep.

The candidates are an 87 inch 1.3 gain Celexon Mobile Professional Plus and a 90 inch 2.2 gain Da-Lite Deluxe Insta-Theater. Calman Enthusiast and an i1 Display 3 Pro were used for all measurements.

With regards to black level, the Celexon wins hands down according to my eyes and my meter. On an all black field, my meter was unable to get a read on the Celexon, meaning that it was below its .001 threshold. The Da-Lite measured .0022. On later readings, they both measured .0022, so not sure what happened there.

As far as brightness goes, with the iris fully closed and contrast at 0 using Film picture mode and HDMI Standard, the Celexon measured at 12ftl on an all white field. The Da-Lite was around 18ftl under the same conditions and seemed much too bright for my taste.

I attempted to perform a calibration on each screen, but I'm positive that the light being reflected by the walls was affecting my readings, as I could not get the grayscale remotely close to linear. Gamma was even worse, as even with the 2.4 preset, it measured around 1.9 in low to medium stimulus, then dipped to 1.0 on high end. I used full fields for measurements, not sure if window patterns are preferred for projectors.

With content, the Celexon definitely had a more plasma like look due to its lower light output (which I prefer). The difference in black level was not as great as I initially thought, as black gets washed out on both screens during medium to bright scenes, which leads me to believe that a grey negative gain screen may be my best bet moving forward. A previous poster mentioned that using a high gain screen like the Da-Lite would make artifacts more visible. Not sure what is meant by artifacts, but I do see dark bands on the middle of the Da-Lite on overly bright scenes, with a white field being the worst case scenario and some bright sparkle like things in the center of the screen.

This should make the Celexon the slam dunk winner right? Well, the Celexon's build quality is not as good as the Da-Lite. It is much more heavier to carry around. The size difference between the two is more noticeable than I thought because I can't get the picture to use up all of the Celexon's screen real estate, as I run out of room on the top and bottom but end up with a one inch gap each side. On the Da-Lite, I can dial the picture up to occupy the entire screen up to all four borders. Further, I can't get the right vertical edge of the image to line up exactly parallel to the right vertical border of the Celexon screen, with the top of the image being about half an inch closer to the border than the bottom inch.

I attempted to get a lower peak light output to 14ftl on the Da-Lite by lowering contrast to -15 using HDMI Standard. Is this an acceptable way to accomplish this? Or is the Da-Lite's peak light output floor limited to what I get with the iris fully closed and contrast at 0? Would switching to HDMI enhanced and lowering contrast help? I'm trying to make it dimmer but not squash my contrast ratio.

If the Da-Lite's floor is limited to simply closing down the iris, then I think I'm going to return both and just use my wall as a screen until I have my own place to able to hang a fixed screen. I found a 0.95 gain grey 92 inch fixed screen from Silver Ticket for $350 ($200 for 1.0 gain grey), which I think would provide much better performance the the two portable screen and better bang for my buck.

Thoughts?
Have you tried room treatment with black cloth on the side walls and part of the ceiling in front of the screen area? If you can hang curtain rods on the sides, it could make a huge difference. Just make sure that the black cloth is not reflective.

Regarding the screen, you need one that you can set up and take down, right? I'd look at Vutec or Draper. Both offer a variety of screen configurations. Arguably, both are considered a step up from Da-Lite (I'm not familiar with Celexon). I'm using a Vutec 110" "Bright White" (actually, it is 1.1 gain) in a room with light colored walls. It looks very good. A few years back I owned a Stewart Firehawk, an incredible screen but pricey at the time. Check this forums "Screens" section for other options.
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post #2077 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 02:44 PM
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Have you tried room treatment with black cloth on the side walls and part of the ceiling in front of the screen area? If you can hang curtain rods on the sides, it could make a huge difference. Just make sure that the black cloth is not reflective.

Regarding the screen, you need one that you can set up and take down, right? I'd look at Vutec or Draper. Both offer a variety of screen configurations. Arguably, both are considered a step up from Da-Lite (I'm not familiar with Celexon). I'm using a Vutec 110" "Bright White" (actually, it is 1.1 gain) in a room with light colored walls. It looks very good. A few years back I owned a Stewart Firehawk, an incredible screen but pricey at the time. Check this forums "Screens" section for other options.
The Draper 94 inch with contrast grey screen (0.8 gain) seems like my best bet. But the $600 price point is ridiculous. I'm sure these portable pull up screens are expensive due to their portability and convenience, but not sure if I want to spend that much on a temporary solution.

The Silver Ticket fixed screen only requires two screws on the wall for installation. I think I'm better off returning both portable screens, taking my chances and talking my landlord into letting me install it.

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post #2078 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
With regards to black level, the Celexon wins hands down according to my eyes and my meter. On an all black field, my meter was unable to get a read on the Celexon, meaning that it was below its .001 threshold. The Da-Lite measured .0022. On later readings, they both measured .0022, so not sure what happened there.
In general, the on/off contrast ratio would be the same between different screens; i.e., their black levels would be directly proportional to their white levels.
Quote:
I attempted to perform a calibration on each screen, but I'm positive that the light being reflected by the walls was affecting my readings, as I could not get the grayscale remotely close to linear. Gamma was even worse, as even with the 2.4 preset, it measured around 1.9 in low to medium stimulus, then dipped to 1.0 on high end. I used full fields for measurements, not sure if window patterns are preferred for projectors.
Whatever effect the wall reflection has, should be proportional to the pattern being displayed; i.e., it may affect the WB but not the gamma.

Quote:
With content, the Celexon definitely had a more plasma like look due to its lower light output (which I prefer). The difference in black level was not as great as I initially thought, as black gets washed out on both screens during medium to bright scenes, which leads me to believe that a grey negative gain screen may be my best bet moving forward.
An ALR screen may also help, depending on the direction of the reflection.
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I attempted to get a lower peak light output to 14ftl on the Da-Lite by lowering contrast to -15 using HDMI Standard. Is this an acceptable way to accomplish this?
That is an acceptable way of reducing the brightness, although it will affect the on/off contrast ratio somewhat.
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post #2079 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 03:06 PM
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Whatever effect the wall reflection has, should be proportional to the pattern being displayed; i.e., it may affect the WB but not the gamma.
Not sure if I understand this one. To me it seemed like it affected both, as I could never get WB close to being acceptable, with midrange being heavy on blue and high end (80 and 90) being high on red, low on blue. I used 30 and 80 IRE to calibrate the WB and could get one or the other perfectly flat but not both. Even if 80 was perfectly flat, 80 and 90 would always be heavy on red or blue and low on red or blue.

The gamma always being below 2.0, with it dipping down towards 1.5 as I increased stimulus tells me that the meter is picking up the reflected light that washes out my picture. Am I correct in this assumption?

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That is an acceptable way of reducing the brightness, although it will affect the on/off contrast ratio somewhat.
If I were to use contrast as an additional way to lower brightness, would you suggest I use HDMI Standard or Enhanced? I noticed that with Enhanced, anything below 15 would make whiter than white show up on the pattern, with 16 being the value right before the pattern clips whites (17 and up clips). With HDMI on Standard, whiter than white would never show up, but clipping would occur on anything higher than 0.

I used contrast at 16, brightness at -7 and HDMI Enhanced with iris fully closed on the Celexon 1.3 gain and it looked superb (aside from blacks being washed out). I want to replicate this look on the 2.2 gain Da-Lite screen. On the Da-Lite, I had to lower contrast to about -20 on HDMI Standard to get around 13ftl light output, but the picture loses "pop" and seems dimmer than the Celexon. Is the low end white balance affected when using the contrast control to lower light output?

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post #2080 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 03:43 PM
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The Draper 94 inch with contrast grey screen (0.8 gain) seems like my best bet. But the $600 price point is ridiculous. I'm sure these portable pull up screens are expensive due to their portability and convenience, but not sure if I want to spend that much on a temporary solution.

The Silver Ticket fixed screen only requires two screws on the wall for installation. I think I'm better off returning both portable screens, taking my chances and talking my landlord into letting me install it.
$600 for a screen is a very competitive price. Most people will change their projectors 3-4 times while keeping the same screen. A strong argument can be made that investing in a good screen is a solid long-term investment. You've got an outstanding projector, but it needs a good screen, and in your case some room treatment, to make it really shine.
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post #2081 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 05:05 PM
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$600 for a screen is a very competitive price. Most people will change their projectors 3-4 times while keeping the same screen. A strong argument can be made that investing in a good screen is a solid long-term investment. You've got an outstanding projector, but it needs a good screen, and in your case some room treatment, to make it really shine.
But I can probably get a better screen for that price in a fixed form factor or something that equals the performance of the portable screen at a fraction of the cost. I'd like to invest in a good, long term solution once I am able to install a fixed screen. The portable floor pull up is a tenporary solution in the interim.

I'm going to talk to my landlord first, and then take it from there.

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post #2082 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 05:26 PM
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But I can probably get a better screen for that price in a fixed form factor or something that equals the performance of the portable screen at a fraction of the cost. I'd like to invest in a good, long term solution once I am able to install a fixed screen. The portable floor pull up is a tenporary solution in the interim.

I'm going to talk to my landlord first, and then take it from there.
Good Idea. Hopefully he'll be OK with it. Yes, you pay a premium for portability, but portable screen's are not not usually Tensioned. They will develop ripples over time. I had a portable that claimed to be tensioned, but it really wasn't. Ripples in the screen material will drive you crazy. Look at the pricey electric roll down screens and you'll see that they use a 'tab tension' system to keep the material rigid.

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post #2083 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 06:25 PM
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Good Idea. Hopefully he'll be OK with it. Yes, you pay a premium for portability, but portable screen's are not not usually Tensioned. They will develop ripples over time. I had a portable that claimed to be tensioned, but it really wasn't. Ripples in the screen material will drive you crazy. Look at the pricey electric roll down screens and you'll see that they use a 'tab tension' system to keep the material rigid.
Agreed. Both these screens curve in a bit at the bottom corners and have minor waves.

I'd rather invest on a good quality fixed screen solution.

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post #2084 of 2101 Old 02-20-2017, 09:23 PM
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Not sure if I understand this one. To me it seemed like it affected both, as I could never get WB close to being acceptable, with midrange being heavy on blue and high end (80 and 90) being high on red, low on blue. I used 30 and 80 IRE to calibrate the WB and could get one or the other perfectly flat but not both. Even if 80 was perfectly flat, 80 and 90 would always be heavy on red or blue and low on red or blue.
What I meant to say, is that this kind of issue is unlikely caused by the screen, or the reflection from the walls. It's the projector itself that has the issue. You can confirm this by measuring off the projector lens, with the meter in the ambient light mode (diffuser on).
It's always a good idea to run a grey scale sweep before you adjust the WB. If the colours do not track linearly (e.g., if there's a hump in one of the colours), then you won't be able to correct the WB for the entire range using only the 2-pt control.

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The gamma always being below 2.0, with it dipping down towards 1.5 as I increased stimulus tells me that the meter is picking up the reflected light that washes out my picture. Am I correct in this assumption?
I don't believe so. The wall reflection affects the measurement by equal % for all levels of stimuli, and hence does not affect the gamma.

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Is the low end white balance affected when using the contrast control to lower light output?
It should not. This can be easily confirmed by repeating grey scale sweeps at different contrast settings.

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post #2085 of 2101 Old 02-21-2017, 12:40 PM
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Good Idea. Hopefully he'll be OK with it. Yes, you pay a premium for portability, but portable screen's are not not usually Tensioned. They will develop ripples over time. I had a portable that claimed to be tensioned, but it really wasn't. Ripples in the screen material will drive you crazy. Look at the pricey electric roll down screens and you'll see that they use a 'tab tension' system to keep the material rigid.
No go with the landlord. But, I found the 92 inch Draper 0.8 gain with Contrast Grey screen for $426 shipped from B&H. They accepted the Da-Lite return and emailed me a pre-paid shipping label. The Celexon is already on its way to Amazon for a refund.

Thanks for recommending the Draper brand, as I wouldn't have found this screen without your advice. It's a special order item so it will take a couple of weeks to arrive at my doorstep. Expect an update at that time.

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post #2086 of 2101 Old 02-21-2017, 12:53 PM
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What I meant to say, is that this kind of issue is unlikely caused by the screen, or the reflection from the walls. It's the projector itself that has the issue. You can confirm this by measuring off the projector lens, with the meter in the ambient light mode (diffuser on).
It's always a good idea to run a grey scale sweep before you adjust the WB. If the colours do not track linearly (e.g., if there's a hump in one of the colours), then you won't be able to correct the WB for the entire range using only the 2-pt control.
OK. I'll try both of your suggestions later this week. Is there a 10 point control for WB? If so, how do I get to it?

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I don't believe so. The wall reflection affects the measurement by equal % for all levels of stimuli, and hence does not affect the gamma.
I was under the impression that the reflected light from the wall gets brighter and more intense as the simuli being displayed on the screen is increased.

I just purchased a 0.8 gain grey screen, which will hopefully yield better results. I can definitely see the potential in this projector, just need to pair it with a screen that can mask some of the shortcomings in my room.

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post #2087 of 2101 Old 02-21-2017, 01:06 PM
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OK. I'll try both of your suggestions later this week. Is there a 10 point control for WB? If so, how do I get to it?
The 10pt WB control is the same as the 10pt gamma control. It allows you to change R,G,B level at each of the 10 points (actually 12 points: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95).
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I was under the impression that the reflected light from the wall gets brighter and more intense as the simuli being displayed on the screen is increased.
Yes, the amount of reflected light increases with the intensity of the stimuli - you can probably see the whole room lighting up on bright scenes. However, the percentage of the reflected light is independent of the stimuli, so that means the gamma is not affected.
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post #2088 of 2101 Old 02-21-2017, 01:11 PM
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The 10pt WB control is the same as the 10pt gamma control. It allows you to change R,G,B level at each of the 10 points (actually 12 points: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95).
Off the top of your head, do you know how to get to the 12 point WB control? I can't seem to find it.

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Yes, the amount of reflected light increases with the intensity of the stimuli - you can probably see the whole room lighting up on bright scenes. However, the percentage of the reflected light is independent of the stimuli, so that means the gamma is not affected.
OK I get it now. And yes, my room lights up like a Christmas tree on bright scenes. It's as if someone turned the lights on.

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post #2089 of 2101 Old 02-21-2017, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Off the top of your head, do you know how to get to the 12 point WB control? I can't seem to find it.
It's under Custom Gamma, page 41 of the manual.
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post #2090 of 2101 Old 02-21-2017, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It's under Custom Gamma, page 41 of the manual.
That looks like 12 point adjustment for gamma not white balance.

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post #2091 of 2101 Old 02-21-2017, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
That looks like 12 point adjustment for gamma not white balance.
As mentioned in my previous reply:
Quote:
The 10pt WB control is the same as the 10pt gamma control. It allows you to change R,G,B level at each of the 10 points (actually 12 points: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95).
To adjust gamma (alone), use White or adjust R/G/B by the same amount. To adjust white balance, change only 1 or 2 of the 3 colours, just like the 2-pt controls.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-21-2017 at 02:53 PM.
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post #2092 of 2101 Old 02-21-2017, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
As mentioned in my previous reply:


To adjust gamma (alone), use White or adjust R/G/B by the same amount. To adjust white balance, change only 1 or 2 of the 3 colours, just like the 2-pt controls.
Ah, got it, thanks!

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post #2093 of 2101 Old 04-12-2017, 12:42 PM
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Here's a (very late) update on my situation.

The 92 inch Draper Traveller 0.8 gain screen ended up being the best of the bunch. While my room still lights up and my blacks get killed during bright scenes, albeit not as bad as the other screens, the black level is perceptibly improved during medium to low APL scenes and the image has more of the dim plasma look that I prefer.

Would an Ambient Light Reflection screen reduce or eliminate the amount of light that reflects off the screen and lights up my room? Or is my situation with the surrounding light beige walls too extreme for an ALR screen to make a difference?

Though I haven't found any ALR portable screens, I'd like to know if it would be wise to invest in one once I'm able to install a screen on my wall and have more control over my room conditions.

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post #2094 of 2101 Old 04-12-2017, 01:00 PM
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With light beige walls, it will be impossible to get very good results with any screen.
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post #2095 of 2101 Old 04-13-2017, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Here's a (very late) update on my situation.

The 92 inch Draper Traveller 0.8 gain screen ended up being the best of the bunch. While my room still lights up and my blacks get killed during bright scenes, albeit not as bad as the other screens, the black level is perceptibly improved during medium to low APL scenes and the image has more of the dim plasma look that I prefer.
This essentially confirmed the earlier discussion that a low gain screen would work best with light-coloured walls and ceiling.

Quote:
Would an Ambient Light Reflection screen reduce or eliminate the amount of light that reflects off the screen and lights up my room? Or is my situation with the surrounding light beige walls too extreme for an ALR screen to make a difference?
As long as most of the room light (including reflection) is not coming in the same direction as the projector, an ALR screen should help. With the projector on and displaying some bright scenes, you can stand in front of the screen facing the projector (not looking into the lens, of course), and see which part of the room lights up the most from the screen reflection.

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post #2096 of 2101 Old 04-24-2017, 04:16 AM
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Lamp Hours

Just posting to confirm this model sure handles its bulb very well, mine just hit 3,000 hours on the original bulb.
It's noticeably dimmer now, but still very watchable, well at least to me, as I came from a G70 CRT

How far beyond 3K hours has anyone else gone?
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post #2097 of 2101 Old 04-25-2017, 02:51 AM
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Not only does this 4810 model tolerate bulbs well, I've never seen anything like it. My original bulb from Jan. 2014 that I replaced in Feb. 2017 had 8246hrs. Ive installed many projectors and seen a few go 4000hrs but this one even got JVCs attention. The rep. asked me to take a pic of the screen so he could show the other reps. and probably do a lil bragging. Dim as it was, it was very watchable when it finally let go. I have an SI Black Diamond and I'm sure that helped its watchablity but 8000 plus Hrs is amazing. Color me impressed.

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post #2098 of 2101 Old 04-27-2017, 03:57 AM
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^^^ Wow! 8K hrs is very, very impressive!

I think I'll leave the bulb in for a few more hundred hours with no concerns. Well, other than the 'Lamp replacement' nag that started showing up every time I power up.

My CRT PJ had 10K hrs on the tubes when I retired it, so I'm pretty sure this JVC will still look brighter.

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post #2099 of 2101 Old 04-29-2017, 10:46 AM
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I bought my 4810 used about 2 months ago. Original bulb, only 675 hours. I wasn't expecting it to be as bright as it is! I have been very impressed with it thus far, and it's good to know there are quite a few hours left in the bulb!

Display - JVC DLA-RS4810 Projector, 106" Da-lite screen
Equipment - Integra DTR-6.8 AVR, Mac Mini HTPC (Win10, Kodi), Xbox One, Apple TV (3rd gen)
Speakers - Tekton Pendragon Towers, Pendragon Center, Pioneer BS-22s, dual Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12 Subs
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post #2100 of 2101 Old Yesterday, 01:50 PM
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Last week I replaced the lamp in my 4810 for the first time. The original lamp had about 700 hours on it but seemed to be getting dim. I had to switch to Hi lamp and open the iris fully to watch a movie.

WOW -- the new bulb is much brighter. After reading posts here about 3000 hour lamp life, I was surprised to see so much improvement after only 700 hours on the old bulb.
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