Scratch that Panasonic PT-AE8000 or Sony HW50ES, how about Sony VPL95ES or Mits HC9000D? UPDATED: Bought a 5010, now what? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 09-22-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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So after resisting 3D for years now, I have decided to bite the bullet. I presently have a JVC RS10 which has provided me about a year of 2D enjoyment, but is ready for a bulb replacement and prompted to consider a new projector. That all said, I am see sawing between a Panasonic AE8000 or Sony HW50ES. Yes, I am aware of the $1000 gap between them, but that isn't really much of an issue. Having never used either's predecessor and only looking at reviews I am inclined to go with the Panny. I am using a 92" 1.0 gain screen with my current projector ceiling mounted about 15-16' back. Thoughts?

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post #2 of 27 Old 09-22-2012, 08:57 AM
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I have a JVC HD250, so the RS10, and I am going with the Panasonic because of lens memory and its good reviews of image in 3D. The HW50 sounds fantastic. I'm really worried that I'm going to miss my JVC's calibrated blacks. Hopefully the improved contrast plate for the Panasonic will make enough of a difference to catch up with a 2 year JVC that is based on the RS10's 5 year old JVC technology.
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post #3 of 27 Old 09-22-2012, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by chasiliff View Post

I have a JVC HD250, so the RS10, and I am going with the Panasonic because of lens memory and its good reviews of image in 3D. The HW50 sounds fantastic. I'm really worried that I'm going to miss my JVC's calibrated blacks. Hopefully the improved contrast plate for the Panasonic will make enough of a difference to catch up with a 2 year JVC that is based on the RS10's 5 year old JVC technology.

Doubtful..but just think ..you'll have 3D.smile.gif
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post #4 of 27 Old 09-22-2012, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chasiliff View Post

I have a JVC HD250, so the RS10, and I am going with the Panasonic because of lens memory and its good reviews of image in 3D. The HW50 sounds fantastic. I'm really worried that I'm going to miss my JVC's calibrated blacks. Hopefully the improved contrast plate for the Panasonic will make enough of a difference to catch up with a 2 year JVC that is based on the RS10's 5 year old JVC technology.

That's sort of where I'm at. The black issue is the reason I am considering the Sony. I figure since it uses similar LcOS technology it might be closer to the JVC in the black department. Lens memory is less of an issue since I am using straight 16:9.

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post #5 of 27 Old 09-22-2012, 06:29 PM
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I just streamed the first episode of Homeland in my theater. Man the picture is beautiful! I'll have 3D and I can go to a scope screen, wider by a bunch than my current 135" 16:9 screen because I think the Panasonic can drive a bigger screen. Still hard to consider giving up this stunning 2D image. Makes me consider leaving the JVC up in its current close position and have the Panasonic set back to drive the wider screen. I hope it comes close to my JVC.
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post #6 of 27 Old 09-23-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by chasiliff View Post

I just streamed the first episode of Homeland in my theater. Man the picture is beautiful! I'll have 3D and I can go to a scope screen, wider by a bunch than my current 135" 16:9 screen because I think the Panasonic can drive a bigger screen. Still hard to consider giving up this stunning 2D image. Makes me consider leaving the JVC up in its current close position and have the Panasonic set back to drive the wider screen. I hope it comes close to my JVC.

i assume your JVC is paid for .
in that case i would keep your jvc for movies only and buy the Panny 8000 for 3D
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post #7 of 27 Old 09-23-2012, 05:35 PM
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I will be able to compare them back to back with the JVC at 14.5 feet and the Panasonic at 18 feet to a 135" Elite screen with bat cave. (That is if I don't cancel my order after continuing to love how good the JVC's picture is.) My order of the Panasonic is a little impulsive. I am likely going to buy a Yamaha 3D capable receiver to replace my Onkyo. The new 7.1 or 7.2 Onkyos are getting pretty bad reviews even though they have a huge range of features. Most of my reason to move on a new projector now, even one that may be inferior in 2D, is because the value of my HD250 is set to fall off dramatically as 3D really becomes mainstream. I figure I can spend a year with the 8000 and take advantage of its good 3d and zoom capability. The 8000 might be great. If it's just okay, I might have to trade up in 2013. The Sony sounds good but it doesn't have the ability to swap between 16:9 and 2.35 and I plan to go bigger with my screen in 2.35:1 format. I hope Art gets the 8000 soon. His site gives me reason to hope the Sony's review could be up this coming week.
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post #8 of 27 Old 09-23-2012, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm with you Chasiliff. I am trying to wait patiently for Art's review of the HW50ES before pulling the trigger anxiously on the Panny. It's like I have money just burning a hole in my pocket and I need to satisfy the itch NOW. Probably not the best way to go about things, but sometimes you just have to do it....

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post #9 of 27 Old 09-23-2012, 06:01 PM
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Being a JVC owner myself I just can't consider the Panasonic because of the black levels. Everything I've read says the Panasonic is behind and ProjectorCentral always loves the Panasonic's and their review is up and there is no mentioned of improved black levels (unless I overlooked it). Many are probably not as picky as I am and the Sony HW30 will likely not be the equivalent of the JVC but I'm hoping it is closer. I really wish other manufacturer's would close the gap between the JVCs when it comes to black levels so there are more options.
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post #10 of 27 Old 09-23-2012, 09:45 PM
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Man the Europeans sure seem to know how to test this stuff right, with quantitation rather than subjective opinion (though I realize this is hard with so many factors when it comes to projectors; for example, screen material, ability of walls/ceilings to reject ambient light, etc.)

But cine4home.de has already shown the PT-AE8000U to have lower native contrast than the older Sony HW30ES, despite the fact that the Panny is advertised as having greater dynamic contrast.

Panasonic AE8000U: 6800:1 (http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Panasonic_PTAT6000/AT6000_Test_A.htm)
Sony HW30ES: 7500:1 (http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Sony_HW30/Test_Sony_HW30.htm)

The Epson 6020 appears to reach 6000:1 native contrast (http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Epson_TW9100/TW9100_Test_Preview.htm)

That's impressive for LCD, but it appears that LCD still lags behind LCOS, though not by much if we're talking about Sony's LCOS implementation.

My 2 cents:

I don't like the Epson b/c it does nothing about the obvious grid pattern (screen door effect) of the LCD panel.
I don't like the Panasonic b/c too many Panny projectors I've seen have flickering issues (bulb problems?). Smooth Screen tech, however, really does work... making it a better choice than Epsons for shorter viewing distances.

Sony bulbs appear to have no complaints, & SXRD has a fantastic fill ratio. If the layer of liquid crystals is thinner in LCOS implementations, it's conceivable that actual liquid crystal transition times are faster, leading to better motion, which should also show up as less ghosting in 3D without the need for technologies like Panasonic's 480Hz technology (skip down to section 4.2 here: http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Panasonic_PTAT5000/PT-AT5000_Test-Final.htm)... though I admit that's some clever technology. I wonder if Sony's Black Frame Insertion technology can help reduce ghosting in 3D (if it can at all be enabled in 3D) by helping 'clear' the panels in between frames to reduce 'memory' of images that shouldn't be there.

Which brings me to another point: in my opinion, Sony's done the best job of reducing 24p motion judder due to 'sample & hold' without resorting to too much 'soap-opera' effect. I'm not sure how they did it, but maybe it has something to do with the black frame insertion, which emulates the shutter blankout time of movie theater projectors... the idea being that this reduces 'sample & hold', the black frame allowing the eye-brain system to sort of interpolate a frame in between frames itself. I would imagine this would also help with motion blur. Perhaps other companies have now caught up; regardless, I really look forward to giving these modes a thorough look when I receive my HW50ES!
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post #11 of 27 Old 09-23-2012, 10:39 PM
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Doesn't measure how the ANSI contrast of SXRD compares to 3LCD though. I wonder how they do. As I understand the tech they're using to improve native LCOS contrast also lowers ANSI. The 50 will have quite a bit brighter correct color mode(1000 vs just above 800), but it will also have a MUCH lower highest brigthness setting(1300 vs 2500). I´m very curious how the 3D brightness will compare, if any of them have somehow been able to reduce the amount of light loss with 3D.

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post #12 of 27 Old 09-23-2012, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

Panasonic AE8000U: 6800:1 (http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Panasonic_PTAT6000/AT6000_Test_A.htm)

If that is accurate, that is a huge improvement for the Panny's contrast over pre-existing years. That makes the Panny a more formidable contender this year potentially.


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post #13 of 27 Old 09-23-2012, 11:45 PM
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They measured 6000:1 native for last years model in dynamic mode.

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post #14 of 27 Old 09-24-2012, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I did a quick check using the calculator on ProjectorCentral.com and it is telling me that the Panasonic is only going to give me 12FL output. Yet, my RS10 gives me the same according to the calculator. How in the hell is that? The Panasonic is 2400 ANSI lumens and the JVC is 1000. What don't I understand here?

Should I be considering the BenQ W7000?

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post #15 of 27 Old 09-24-2012, 11:41 AM
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The Panasonic is rated at 2400 lumens, but this is in some dynamic mode that is going to give wacky colours. The Panny and JVC will give around 800 lumens (high lamp and positioned as close to the screen as possible) when calibrated for correct colour.
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The Panasonic is rated at 2400 lumens, but this is in some dynamic mode that is going to give wacky colours. The Panny and JVC will give around 800 lumens (high lamp and positioned as close to the screen as possible) when calibrated for correct colour.

Hmmmm, sneaky bastards. Well, I face a dilemma. My issue is that my JVC has about 1200 hours on the bulb. When I bought it used it had just under 1100. I have never seen it at its brightest and therefore no real reference to what 12FL looks like. All I know is that it is definitely dimmer than I would like right now. Should I consider the bulb to be only at 50% brightness? That would help to better understand and visualize where I am trying to get to. I do realize the fact that I am trying to light up a 92" screen from 15' back poses a challenge, but that is unfortunately the restriction I have in my living room presently. Thoughts? Ultimately, I want brighter 2D and viable 3D.

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post #17 of 27 Old 09-24-2012, 12:16 PM
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Some people may need high brightness modes such as when watching sports with lights on - but this comes at the expense of colour. I think that it is safe to say that the lamp in your JVC is at 50% brightness. Colour tracking may also have drifted as the lamp ages. Your cheapest upgrade is likely to be a new lamp. It will look like you upgraded to a much superior projector. The JVC should have no issues lighting up a low gain 92" screen with a new lamp. Whether 3D with the JVC is acceptable is a personal decision, and this is where the Panasonic will be superior. For 2D keep the JVC and get a new lamp.
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post #18 of 27 Old 09-24-2012, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott B View Post

Some people may need high brightness modes such as when watching sports with lights on - but this comes at the expense of colour. I think that it is safe to say that the lamp in your JVC is at 50% brightness. Colour tracking may also have drifted as the lamp ages. Your cheapest upgrade is likely to be a new lamp. It will look like you upgraded to a much superior projector. The JVC should have no issues lighting up a low gain 92" screen with a new lamp. Whether 3D with the JVC is acceptable is a personal decision, and this is where the Panasonic will be superior. For 2D keep the JVC and get a new lamp.

Thanks Scott. Just to note, my current JVC is 2D only capable. The itch for 3D is what got this whole cycle started, I was going to buy a new bulb and then thought I could just use the $300-400 towards a new projector. I don't want to spend a ton as I figure it only needs to last a year or less. I will most likely be going to the Sony XBR-84X900 or VLPX1000 successor next year.

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post #19 of 27 Old 09-24-2012, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have decided to go a different route than planned. Instead of the absolute newest mid-tier projectors, how about older upper tier projectors. I can get a Mitsubishi HC9000D for about the same price as a B-Stock Sony VPL95ES. I am leaning towards the Sony, but Mike G. is pushing me towards the Mits. Thoughts?

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post #20 of 27 Old 09-24-2012, 08:20 PM
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So I have decided to go a different route than planned. Instead of the absolute newest mid-tier projectors, how about older upper tier projectors. I can get a Mitsubishi HC9000D for about the same price as a B-Stock Sony VPL95ES. I am leaning towards the Sony, but Mike G. is pushing me towards the Mits. Thoughts?

Who's selling B-Stock 95ES ? AVS ?
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post #21 of 27 Old 09-26-2012, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, Mike said they are expecting some 95ES B-stock this week.

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post #22 of 27 Old 09-26-2012, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Last night I was in my local Best Buy to pick up Bond 50 on Blu and I made my way into their Magnolia store and much to my surprise they actually had some projectors in stock. I chatted with the sales guy for a bit and explained that I was interested in making the jump to 3D. Long story short, I walked out with an Epson 5010, some glasses, a Sony S790, and some 3D BDs. Yeah, that wasn't the plan, but the guy made me a reasonably decent deal on the PJ and I decided "what the hell, it's worth trying." Got everything hooked up and sat the Epson on my coffee table as a temporary solution. Charged up the glasses and popped in Hugo and my immediate reaction was "HOLY $#@!". My wife and kids came over and tried on a pair of glasses and got similar reactions. Let me qualify this by saying I have seen many movies in 3D at theaters and even seen one a on 55" LED-LCD, but something about seeing it so crisp and large at home illicts a real reaction of awe. From a 3D perspective, I think the Epson did a fantastic job. I exhibited minimal crosstalk and the brightness was fantastic. The 2D was good, but I did perceive the black level difference versus my JVC, but that was to be expected. The contrast didn't seem quite as good either, but the colors did have a real pop to them and it was a very sharp presentation. With all of that said, I can't help but feel that I should go with the Panasonic AE8000 coming out next week. It's not that I am unhappy with the Epson, but I think it is more of "the grass is greener on the other side" mental problem. After all, the release is right around the corner, but is it really worth the $500 premium I will pay for it? The ProjectorCentral.com review felt more like an ad and less like a review, so I am hard pressed to jump on the Panny purely on that reference alone. Thoughts? What would you guys do?

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post #23 of 27 Old 09-26-2012, 05:20 AM
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I'd wait to see if any bugs might need squashing, but if you want to buy the 8000, you can give the Epson to me.
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post #24 of 27 Old 09-26-2012, 05:44 AM
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If you can hold out for another 2 months wait for the Epson 5020. The DI is enabled in 3D now.
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post #25 of 27 Old 09-26-2012, 10:49 PM
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Sorry for asking here. I want to buy sony 95es. Mike, how can I place the order on the 95ES B-stock? Thanks a lot.
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post #26 of 27 Old 09-27-2012, 04:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for asking here. I want to buy sony 95es. Mike, how can I place the order on the 95ES B-stock? Thanks a lot.

Just need to call AV Science and speak to him. He can't really discuss much via the forum.

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post #27 of 27 Old 09-27-2012, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B View Post

The Panasonic is rated at 2400 lumens, but this is in some dynamic mode that is going to give wacky colours. The Panny and JVC will give around 800 lumens (high lamp and positioned as close to the screen as possible) when calibrated for correct colour.


Art got 892 lumens Calibrated for an RS45 mid zoom. http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-rs45/performance.php#bright The calibrated lumes measurement is 2/3rds down the page.

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