Upgrading from my AE2000 - going for either an AE7000 or an RS45 - thoughts? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 09-24-2012, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I continue to be amazed by my now 5-year-old (!) Panasonic pj. Main reason to upgrade will be for brighter and sharper image, better contrast and - of course - 3D. Between the Panny AE7000 and the JVC RS45, which would be my best bet?

Also, I've read some review of the 7000 claiming that its image isn't particularly sharp. This strikes me as odd since my 2000 produces razor sharp image, to such a degree that it can faithfully reproduce the grain structure of various shooting stocks (when fed with well-transfered, DVR-free blu-ray sources). The newer 7000 couldn't be producing softer images than the much older 2000, could it?
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post #2 of 33 Old 09-25-2012, 03:51 AM
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Ive never seen the 2000, but have owned the 3000 and the 7000. Both were very nice pjs.

If you find your 2000 very sharp, you likely have a unit with good convergence. What kind of screen do you have?

I personally found both my 3000 and 7000 to be fairly soft, particularly compared to the single chip dlps I moved onto... which is to be expected.

How did you arrive at those 2 units you are considering? I dont think 3d is aparticular strength of either unit. If you arent gaming, id consider the 5010 which is a little cheaper in canada, alittle brighter than both units, and is closer to the jvcs black levels than the panny.

If you are happy with your current unit, id suggest waiting until the new crop of pjs arrives. Id have my eyes on the 5020 or 8000.
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post #3 of 33 Old 09-25-2012, 05:13 AM
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I 'upgraded' from an AE2000 to an early AE3000 and briefly owned them both: My AE2000 was sharper and had uniform focus which the AE3000 didn't. Now it could have been a bad example (one of the first into the UK I believe), but it was disappointing. Especially as I'd already agreed a sale for the AE2000. I mainly bought it for the lens memory feature, but expected an improvement in picture quality, but didn't find one. I've heard similar comments from those going from AE3000 to AE4000 too, so I wonder if there really has been much improvement over the various models, plus you could be unlucky and get a poor convergence one like I did. JVCs of course aren't immune from poor convergence, but it seems the exception rather than the rule.

Shortly afterwards I upgraded to a JVC HD350 (RS10) and the sharpness was much better, despite LCOS getting bad 'press' regarding sharpness. Also the blacks were just so much better that it was obvious even not side by side. The RS45 is a further step up in contrast terms and I found that motion seemed better than my HD350, so it's on a list of possible future projector purchases as the price is dropping now that the replacements are due out soon.

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post #4 of 33 Old 09-25-2012, 11:49 AM
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True @ Kelvin...

There is a lot of misinformation out there about sharpness in general, and it starts with some of the PRO reviewers and then the misinformation filters through this forum.


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post #5 of 33 Old 09-25-2012, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Shoot, this is not very encouraging. frown.gif

I'd go for an RS45 but I hear terrible things about bulb life and 3D imaging quality. I definitely don't want to buy the 7000 if there's a likelihood that it won't be as sharp / detailed as my AE2000 is. frown.gif
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post #6 of 33 Old 09-29-2012, 02:46 AM
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Why not preorder a Rs46 price is real good right now
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post #7 of 33 Old 09-29-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dizzyboy View Post

Shoot, this is not very encouraging. frown.gif
I'd go for an RS45 but I hear terrible things about bulb life and 3D imaging quality. I definitely don't want to buy the 7000 if there's a likelihood that it won't be as sharp / detailed as my AE2000 is. frown.gif

The likelihood is the opposite, the ae7000 or ae8000 will usually be sharper than the ae2000u, but it still depends on convergence luck. My agreement with his point was that the JVC's are generally sharper than the Panasonics (and Epsons), and I also agree there is no guarantee either way. I would also go for the RS-46 on pre-order if you care about 2D more than 3D, but also look at the Sony hw50es for a better balance of 2D/3D image quality.


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post #8 of 33 Old 09-29-2012, 06:00 PM
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Not sure what the preorder price is on the hw50 but the rs46 was pretty good at least I think
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post #9 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

Not sure what the preorder price is on the hw50 but the rs46 was pretty good at least I think

The jvc price will be better but then again the Sony comes with an extra bulb two glasses and the transmitter and I beleave one extra year on the warranty. Plus you get Darblet like processing for free (saving you another 300).


Jvc will have much better contrast.
The Sony will probably be brighter.

Improvements in 3d on the jvc is unknown vs Sony but it sounds like its been much improved on the jvc.

Sony has faster panels which I can only assume will equal less ghosting then the jvc.
Motion will be better for sports on the Sony and gaming will have lower lag time.

Jvc has motorized everything which is nice and more flexibility with the zoom. However there is also more effect on the images brightness and contrast depending on where the zoom is set


Well that's all the differences I can think of. Ofcourse I haven't seen either smile.gif
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post #10 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

The jvc price will be better but then again the Sony comes with an extra bulb two glasses and the transmitter and I beleave one extra year on the warranty. Plus you get Darblet like processing for free (saving you another 300).
Jvc will have much better contrast.
The Sony will probably be brighter.
Improvements in 3d on the jvc is unknown vs Sony but it sounds like its been much improved on the jvc.
Sony has faster panels which I can only assume will equal less ghosting then the jvc.
Motion will be better for sports on the Sony and gaming will have lower lag time.
Jvc has motorized everything which is nice and more flexibility with the zoom. However there is also more effect on the images brightness and contrast depending on where the zoom is set
Well that's all the differences I can think of. Ofcourse I haven't seen either smile.gif

I wouldn't go so far to say that the JVC will have better contrast. Just take a look at Art's review of the HW50. He says that the Sony has better contrast than the RS45 as he wasn't all that impressed with last years black level of their entry model and he expects this years to be similar. So contrast will actually favor the Sony.
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post #11 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 01:31 PM
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If I was in the market, I'd have the Epson 5020 (or a used 5010 or 6010), JVC RS4810 (that's assuming that the new lamp/power supply have resolved the lamp issues and improved 3D), or Sony HW50 on my short list.

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post #12 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I wouldn't go so far to say that the JVC will have better contrast. Just take a look at Art's review of the HW50. He says that the Sony has better contrast than the RS45 as he wasn't all that impressed with last years black level of their entry model and he expects this years to be similar. So contrast will actually favor the Sony.

Sony native on off cr has always been much lower then the jvc.
Honestly I think the increased contrast is just perception based on the reality engine.


Take a Darblet add it to the jvc then compare.
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post #13 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 02:13 PM
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If I was in the market, I'd have the Epson 5020 (or a used 5010 or 6010), JVC RS4810 (that's assuming that the new lamp/power supply have resolved the lamp issues and improved 3D), or Sony HW50 on my short list.

I agree which the rs4810 if you can afford it but its not quite in the same price range.
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post #14 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 02:33 PM
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The Sony HW30 is in the same price range, if you can't swing the new Sony HW50, which costs quite a bit more.

I personally like the Sony's because they have a good game mode (sub 30ms, whereas the JVCs and Epsons are 80ms+).

The Panasonic hits all the bulletpoints, but I've had two Epson-LCD panel projectors (Panny AE900u and Sanyo Z3000) have panel malfunctions, so I'd like to try another technology.
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post #15 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

Sony native on off cr has always been much lower then the jvc.
Honestly I think the increased contrast is just perception based on the reality engine.
Take a Darblet add it to the jvc then compare.

I'm not talking native contrast because nothing can touch their native numbers. The good thing about Sony's projectors is how well implemented their irises are. They are basically without artifacts and can only rarely be noticed. There are several reviews out there that put on/off measurements above the entry level JVCs. I'm just saying, over all the Sony is a much better option. It seems to have a very nice lens for the price, it calibrates beautifully, does 3D much better (if you intend to use it as a 3D projector), and has much faster panels to ensure better motion. Its a very compelling package for the price.
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post #16 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 02:38 PM
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Velvet post I agree with your comments . The Sony measured 6800:1 in recent test. The RS45 measures above 20:000:1 by most accounts. How anyone could think the Sony has higher contrast is totally beyond me.rolleyes.gif
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post #17 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 03:26 PM
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Velvet post I agree with your comments . The Sony measured 6800:1 in recent test. The RS45 measures above 20:000:1 by most accounts. How anyone could think the Sony has higher contrast is totally beyond me.rolleyes.gif

Yes. 6800:1 is native. With the iris on its higher than the RS45. Cine4home measured it as high as 28000:1. This puts it over the RS45.
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post #18 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 03:40 PM
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I wouldn't go so far to say that the JVC will have better contrast. Just take a look at Art's review of the HW50. He says that the Sony has better contrast than the RS45 as he wasn't all that impressed with last years black level of their entry model and he expects this years to be similar. So contrast will actually favor the Sony.

Here are some cut and pastes from Art's RS45 review:


"I mentioned on the first page of this review that the JVC RS45 produces excellent black levels. This is important. The black level performance of the RS45 may well be its single greatest achievement, even though the more expensive JVC's starting at over twice the price are even better. With the RS45, even on the darkest scenes, our side by side viewing with the Epson showed that at its best the Epson could barely match the JVC and on most scenes, the JVC RS45 offers a slight, but distinct advantage."

"Epson has reigned for years as the "black level champ" in the under $3500 price range, and can compete in blacks, rather easily with most over $5000 projectors.

That said, it can't quite compete with the JVC DLA-RS45, which is simply better at doing blacker blacks."



Art is starting to get conflicting results. People that have compard the VW95 to the RS45 said the RS45 had slightly better blacks. Art in his review of the RS45, said the Epson could not keep up with the RS45 and know in the Sony HW50ES review, he says the Epson was last years black level champ.


"Blacks look very good. Oh, not as good as the Sony's best 2K projector, the VPL-VW95ES ($6995), but impressive nonetheless. If you see having good inky dark blacks is really important, as I do, this Sony HW50ES projector almost certainly will not disappoint you.

Sony seems to have built this HW50 with better abilities in terms of blacks, than the older HW30ES. With this projector, Sony now is right there slugging it out for best blacks under $5000.

This Sony is definitely right up there challenging last year's sub-$5000 champ, the Epson 5010/6010 in terms of blacks."

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post #19 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 04:13 PM
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Here are some cut and pastes from Art's RS45 review:
"I mentioned on the first page of this review that the JVC RS45 produces excellent black levels. This is important. The black level performance of the RS45 may well be its single greatest achievement, even though the more expensive JVC's starting at over twice the price are even better. With the RS45, even on the darkest scenes, our side by side viewing with the Epson showed that at its best the Epson could barely match the JVC and on most scenes, the JVC RS45 offers a slight, but distinct advantage."
"Epson has reigned for years as the "black level champ" in the under $3500 price range, and can compete in blacks, rather easily with most over $5000 projectors.
That said, it can't quite compete with the JVC DLA-RS45, which is simply better at doing blacker blacks."
Art is starting to get conflicting results. People that have compard the VW95 to the RS45 said the RS45 had slightly better blacks. Art in his review of the RS45, said the Epson could not keep up with the RS45 and know in the Sony HW50ES review, he says the Epson was last years black level champ.
"Blacks look very good. Oh, not as good as the Sony's best 2K projector, the VPL-VW95ES ($6995), but impressive nonetheless. If you see having good inky dark blacks is really important, as I do, this Sony HW50ES projector almost certainly will not disappoint you.
Sony seems to have built this HW50 with better abilities in terms of blacks, than the older HW30ES. With this projector, Sony now is right there slugging it out for best blacks under $5000.
This Sony is definitely right up there challenging last year's sub-$5000 champ, the Epson 5010/6010 in terms of blacks."

Well, then Art contradicts himself. I guess you could say that the RS45 looks more natural in dark scenes. But as far as actual measurements go, the Sony does do better. I think Art realizes that which explains his comments on the 45 looking more dynamic.

Ironically enough, I want to give JVC another chance. I purchased a refurb X3 last week. We'll see how well I like it. I just think the HW50 is much better deal considering you get better 3D, faster panels for motion, a CMS, reality creation, better FI algorithms, a better lens for a sharper picture, ect. I don't see why so many people still give the JVCs in this price range such huge praise.
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post #20 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 04:53 PM
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Well, then Art contradicts himself. I guess you could say that the RS45 looks more natural in dark scenes. But as far as actual measurements go, the Sony does do better. I think Art realizes that which explains his comments on the 45 looking more dynamic.
Ironically enough, I want to give JVC another chance. I purchased a refurb X3 last week. We'll see how well I like it. I just think the HW50 is much better deal considering you get better 3D, faster panels for motion, a CMS, reality creation, better FI algorithms, a better lens for a sharper picture, ect. I don't see why so many people still give the JVCs in this price range such huge praise.

The answer is simple. Some of us don't use FI,3D or care for a dynamic iris. I doubt the vw50 is any sharper than an RS45.
For the darkest scenes there's no doubt the JVC's rule. I would like to see the vw50 one of these days. I'm sure it throws a terrific image.
There are just some things native contrast gives no dynamic iris can mimic. Dark scene dynamics require a high native CR. This is why the further you move up the Sony food chain the better the native contrast.

I've noticed a lot of JVC bashing over the last week on this site. No projector is perfect. We each buy what suits our needs. If I played video games I'd buy the Sony.

At the present time for 2D movies I haven't seen another projector I'd rather own than the JVC.

There is definitely a sample to sample variation with projectors of the same model. My dealer friend owned a RS40 that had a washed out image compared to what I get at home on the RS45. I tried for several hours to get it to give the same image/contrast I'm accustom too with no luck. If I'd aquired a JVC with that look..I would have given it low marks as well.

Buying a B-stock JVC for half the price of the vw50 is a no brainer if your a 2D movie fan.
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post #21 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 05:18 PM
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I don't intend to bash JVC. There are a lot of JVC fan boys on this forum who seem to always push the threads in that direction. I'm simply trying to give another perspective. Yes, the lack of a dynamic iris has it perks when you can get the numbers just as easily without one. The results are obviously apparent with one 5 minute demo. But that initial shock wears off over a small period of time and you begin to realize some of the JVCs faults. Especially when comparing the entry level JVCs you lack a CMS. Considering that just about every other competing projector at this price point has one makes the JVC seem a bit lack luster. JVC clearly has some issues with motion. Read any review or do a side by side comparison. There is a difference there. Sharpness will depend a lot on your specific unit, I'll give you that. But many reviewers are amazed at how well the optics compare to last years HW30. It's a real step up. I would say that given the better optics your chances of seeing a sharper and clearer picture are more likely when compared to the JVC. The OP is very interested in 3D as he said in his original post. The Sony will do a much better job and will be brighter in 3D (as noted by Art in his review). If you can live without that naturalness during dark scenes and settle for the next best thing I think with all things considered the HW50 is a better projector. Now, if I had to choose between the OPs original pair of projectors I'd recommend the JVC hands down. LCD by comparison to both DLP and LCoS in terms of picture quality on a projector in this price range can't compete in my opinion. In the end it's really dependent on what the buyer wants. If he feels that the best black level is the most important decision then by all means get the JVC, but if he values a solid all-around performer without one major flaw and something that does everything just about right then I'd say go for the Sony.

I'll let Art sum it up and he admits on frequent occasion that he is a JVC fanboy and has owned 2 JVC's consecutively ( RS1 and now an RS20):
Quote:
I can start my summary of the VPL-HW50ES by saying that if I was shopping for a sub $5000 projector for my theater at this time, I believe it would be my top choice. True, I have the updated Epsons coming in, and then this year's minor improvements to the lowest cost JVC, but based on what I know about those projectors predecessors, this Sony may very well be the pick of the litter even against those companies' newer projectors. We shall see.
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post #22 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 05:32 PM
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I don't intend to bash JVC. There are a lot of JVC fan boys on this forum who seem to always push the threads in that direction. I'm simply trying to give another perspective. Yes, the lack of a dynamic iris has it perks when you can get the numbers just as easily without one. The results are obviously apparent with one 5 minute demo. But that initial shock wears off over a small period of time and you begin to realize some of the JVCs faults. Especially when comparing the entry level JVCs you lack a CMS. Considering that just about every other competing projector at this price point has one makes the JVC seem a bit lack luster. JVC clearly has some issues with motion. Read any review or do a side by side comparison. There is a difference there. Sharpness will depend a lot on your specific unit, I'll give you that. But many reviewers are amazed at how well the optics compare to last years HW30. It's a real step up. I would say that given the better optics your chances of seeing a sharper and clearer picture are more likely when compared to the JVC. The OP is very interested in 3D as he said in his original post. The Sony will do a much better job and will be brighter in 3D (as noted by Art in his review). If you can live without that naturalness during dark scenes and settle for the next best thing I think with all things considered the HW50 is a better projector. Now, if I had to choose between the OPs original pair of projectors I'd recommend the JVC hands down. LCD by comparison to both DLP and LCoS in terms of picture quality on a projector in this price range can't compete in my opinion.

It hasn't worn off for me as yet. lol
I know instantly when a projector can't match it in contrast. I could say the same about the competition being lack luster, since all of them rely on a DI for decent contrast.
If the OP is big on 3D and sports, buy a Benq w7000. smile.gif
At $4K I don't see the vw50 as a bargain. If I'm going to spend $4K , I might as well buy the RS56.
Or better yet get the B stock vw95 and save some money.
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post #23 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 05:38 PM
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It hasn't worn off for me as yet. lol
I know instantly when a projector can't match it in contrast. I could say the same about the competition being lack luster, since all of them rely on a DI for decent contrast.
If the OP is big on 3D and sports, buy a Benq w7000. smile.gif
At $4K I don't see the vw50 as a bargain. If I'm going to spend $4K , I might as well buy the RS56.
Or better yet get the B stock vw95 and save some money.

I don't mean that you forget about how well the contrast is. I'm saying that initial "omg lets go through all my dark movies to see how good it looks" phase runs out and you can begin to look at other aspects of the projectors image.

Also $3999 is MSRP. It will be cheaper than that. You also get, on top of just the projector, 2 pairs of glasses, the emitter, an extra lamp, the reality creation engine is basically a Darblet, and an extra year on the warranty compared to the JVC. So if you figure the selling point is going to actually be around $3500 (maybe less as I haven't asked any dealers) and you take out the cost of the extras you're really getting a much better deal compared to a new RS45.

I also love how you ignore my main point and argue about something trivial.
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post #24 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 05:42 PM
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I don't mean that you forget about how well the contrast is. I'm saying that the shock of how well it is wears off and you can begin to look at other aspects of the projectors image.
Also $3999 is MSRP. It will be cheaper then that. You also get, on top of just the projector, 2 pairs of glasses, the emitter, an extra lamp, the reality creation engine is basically a Darbee, and an extra year on the warranty compared to the JVC. So if you figure the selling point is going to actually be around $3500 and you take out the cost of the extras you're really getting a much better deal compared to a new RS45.

I gotcha..since I paid roughly $2600 for a new RS45. I still have a hard time seeing the vw50 as a bargain. I thought Sony had the pricing locked in? Did something change? Doesn't sound too bad if they're throwing all that in, even though I personally wouldn't be using all of it besides the lamp.
Oh and your signature pretty much says it all. Why even bother with another JVC..since they are soooo bad?
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post #25 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 05:53 PM
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JVC's aren't terrible, I never made that claim. I had an RS20 for about 6 months. It was a nice projector with good convergence. But like I said, there were certain things I felt were a bit lack luster. I switched over to a higher end DLP (Planar PD8150) and felt it did almost everything better. I just think there are better options out there for certain situations. This is one of those, especially considering his 3D interest.

As I said before, I want to give JVC another chance. I bought a refurb X3 (RS40) for $1499 and I should have it Tuesday. I did demo an RS45 but it was short so I can't claim to say much about it. We'll see Tuesday about the X3. I just hope the unit has decent convergence.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

JVC's aren't terrible, I never made that claim. I had an RS20 for about 6 months. It was a nice projector with good convergence. But like I said, there were certain things I felt were a bit lack luster. I switched over to a higher end DLP (Planar PD8150) and felt it did almost everything better. I just think there are better options out there for certain situations. This is one of those, especially considering his 3D interest.
As I said before, I want to give JVC another chance. I bought a refurb X3 (RS40) for $1499 and I should have it Tuesday. I did demo an RS45 but it was short so I can't claim to say much about it. We'll see Tuesday about the X3. I just hope the unit has decent convergence.

I'm just remembering a post you made recently claiming JVC's only have good contrast as a whole. lol..it was a good laugh.
Well I hope it works out for you and you get a good sample. That's a killer price on the RS40! At that price ..I wouldn't complain anyway!
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post #27 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 06:07 PM
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That doesn't make them terrible. I remember that post and what I was trying to say (and I think I did explain myself) is that it's really the only thing they seem to do really well. It's their only claim-to-fame so to speak.
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post #28 of 33 Old 09-30-2012, 06:14 PM
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Well, then Art contradicts himself. I guess you could say that the RS45 looks more natural in dark scenes. But as far as actual measurements go, the Sony does do better. I think Art realizes that which explains his comments on the 45 looking more dynamic.
Ironically enough, I want to give JVC another chance. I purchased a refurb X3 last week. We'll see how well I like it. I just think the HW50 is much better deal considering you get better 3D, faster panels for motion, a CMS, reality creation, better FI algorithms, a better lens for a sharper picture, ect. I don't see why so many people still give the JVCs in this price range such huge praise.

Where are you getting, a better lens on the HW50ES compared to the RS45? Sony builds a lens to each price point, so as you move up the line, you get a better lens. JVC only builds one lens and it is shared from top to bottom of the line. Granted the top of the line, gets the hand picked ones, but they are built to the same specs. So if what you are saying was correct, then the bottom of the line Sony lens would have to be better than the top of the line lens in the RS66. I do not believe that to be the case.

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I was speaking more specifically about the projector the OP is asking about. The RS45, not hand picked optics for the 65/high end models. There's been quite a bit talk about the new lens used in the HW50. The light path and optic design for the HW50 was engineered by the same team that engineered the 1000ES and that's why many aren't surprised with the performance of this new lens. I don't remember the review but the reviewer said it reminded him of a lens that would normally be used in a projector twice the price. I'll have to do some digging and find the quote and some of his other comments. Obviously the quality of the lens you get varies from unit to unit so I guess in the end it comes down to luck or how many times you're willing to return the units you receive. tongue.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I was speaking more specifically about the projector the OP is asking about. The RS45, not hand picked optics for the 65/high end models. There's been quite a bit talk about the new lens used in the HW50. The light path and optic design for the HW50 was engineered by the same team that engineered the 1000ES and that's why many aren't surprised with the performance of this new lens. I don't remember the review but the reviewer said it reminded him of a lens that would normally be used in a projector twice the price. I'll have to do some digging and find the quote and some of his other comments. Obviously the quality of the lens you get varies from unit to unit so I guess in the end it comes down to luck.

Yes there was even talk that the HW50ES used the lens from the VW95ES. That talk was not correct. The lens in the HW50 has more in common with the HW30 than it has with the VW95. I brought up the 65 because the 45 and 65 use the same design and the same pieces. The only difference is the 65 gets the pieces that are tighter to spec. in other words the variance is smaller.

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