Official Owners' Thread, Panasonic PT-AE8000U (US version) PT-AT6000E (European version) - Page 187 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 331Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #5581 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 04:22 PM
Member
 
Medi0gre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 83
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 25
For lense memory to function correctly top of lens must be no higher than top of sceeen. I.e. switching from 16:9 to scope
Figured this out the hard way... so much for hiding projector In the Soffit
HopefulFred likes this.

klaatu barada nik*cough*
Medi0gre is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #5582 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 04:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 474 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by deano86 View Post
No, it is not an "electronic" offset. The spec you are quoting is the actual amount of offset that you can "physically" move the lens to compensate for mounting positions that are not directly in the middle of the screen. That gets adjusted once... to properly center the 16:9 image on the screen. After that, you use "electronic" vertical Lens Control Menu shift offset (not the regular menu shift offset!) to get the scope image to display properly. You only have so much adjustment here. If indeed the OP is adjusting the correct Menu setting, and can't get the scope image back onto the screen, then indeed his projector needs to be mounted lower.
GTK. But my point is it doesn't seem to be working properly in the case of the OP. The AE6000/8000 units - according to Panasonic - have a 100% vertical offset range. Since that is from the center of the image, with the lens at the same height, that means it's effectively 50% of the image height from top or bottom of the screen edge. That is the limit. The OP says he's got his PJ mounted 15" from the top of his screen. If his screen is >30" tall (which we know it is from his post), then he should be able to get that image to move further down.

The only other thing I can think of is if his PJ is too close to the screen, but OP would know if that was an issue as he wouldn't get the right FOV to begin with.

So, what am I missing here??? I'm thinking there's something wrong with his PJ, unless he's in the wrong menu item, etc.

I realize there's a plethora of menu items on the Panny's. Does anyone have a link to a post that describes the image alignment process in detail, to help out the OP? I think that's what is needed atm; i.e. if someone can provide OP with a step-by-step guide, so he can figure out if he's performing the correct action. Or, as I suggested he can contact Panasonic and they can walk him through it.

OR... if you suspect it's the 16:9 to scope screen adjustment that's the hang-up, do you have a reference (perhaps in the owners manual) to where that limit is and/or how to determine it? Panasonic's calculator on their website is silent on that issue. It simply says to refer to the 16:9 lens settings for scope screen alignment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My HT build in progress: The Final Frontier

Quiet Glue: Why Not to Use It
HT Geek is online now  
post #5583 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 04:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
deano86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,890
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked: 152
Only the OP can chime in with what he is adjusting, I guess.....
deano86 is offline  
 
post #5584 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 05:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HopefulFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,675
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 521 Post(s)
Liked: 477
First, I used the manual lens joystick to position the 16:9 image in the center of the screen. Notice that h-area position and v-area position are set to 0.



Second, I used zoom/focus to enlarge the image until it filled the width of the screen. Notice the the top of the image has come down in the process.



Third, I used the v-area position to bring the image up. Obviously, the top of the image didn't move. This function only brings up the bottom while cropping out the top.



So, am I using the wrong menu, or does the projector need to be lower? It would seem to me that the image comes down while I zoom because of the relationship between the imaging chip and the lens, so there needs to be some way to move one or the other (chip or lens), and not simply adjust the position of the image on the chip.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lens Memory 3.jpg (222.0 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg Lens Memory 2.jpg (221.5 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg Lens Memory 1.jpg (241.2 KB, 167 views)

Last edited by HopefulFred; 07-31-2017 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Adding images
HopefulFred is online now  
post #5585 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 06:05 PM
Member
 
Medi0gre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 83
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Fred after you set your 16:9 image, save It.
Then load up a scope movie, pause it on a bright image, go to lenses control- zoom/ focus - then cycle through the test images and one of them will be the movie you loaded and you can fit your scope image to the screen.
There are no other test patterns in the projecter besides using a bluray image

klaatu barada nik*cough*
Medi0gre is online now  
post #5586 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 06:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HopefulFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,675
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 521 Post(s)
Liked: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medi0gre View Post
Fred after you set your 16:9 image, save It.
I assume you mean to save the settings to lens memory - I have done that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medi0gre View Post
Then load up a scope movie, pause it on a bright image, go to lenses control- zoom/ focus - then cycle through the test images and one of them will be the movie you loaded and you can fit your scope image to the screen.
There are no other test patterns in the projecter besides using a bluray image
How do I do that?
HopefulFred is online now  
post #5587 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 06:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
deano86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,890
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked: 152
+1....
Yes... you need to use an actual scope movie as your "test" pattern... then do your vertical offset. But, keep in mind, even though the 8000 has a lot of actual manual position lens shift available, you are limited in the amount of electronic vertical offset available to you.... As Medi0gre stated in his post above....the projector mount position tolerance for successful switching to scope is much tighter..... and with your projector being that much higher than the top of your screen, that is definitely your issue.
HT Geek likes this.
deano86 is offline  
post #5588 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 06:43 PM
Member
 
Medi0gre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 83
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Press the center button in the middle of the direction keys to initiate a pattern change when the zoom/ focus screen is up and your bluray image will come up.
... but like deano said, your gonna have to get the projector leveled out with the top of your screen at a minimum to make this work

klaatu barada nik*cough*
Medi0gre is online now  
post #5589 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 07:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HopefulFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,675
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 521 Post(s)
Liked: 477
Well, thanks for the feedback guys. I went through the same stuff with a paused movie, and got the same results (as expected). Since I am using a Chief RPAU mount, which has a 1.5" NPT fitting, and I measure the lens to be 15 inches above the top of the screen, I ordered a CMS012018 adjustable extension column. That will get me the drop I need to make good use of the memory function. What's another $85, right?...

I'll post back when it comes in and I have it working. (fingers crossed)
HT Geek likes this.
HopefulFred is online now  
post #5590 of 5604 Old 07-31-2017, 07:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
deano86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,890
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 291 Post(s)
Liked: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
Well, thanks for the feedback guys. I went through the same stuff with a paused movie, and got the same results (as expected). Since I am using a Chief RPAU mount, which has a 1.5" NPT fitting, and I measure the lens to be 15 inches above the top of the screen, I ordered a CMS012018 adjustable extension column. That will get me the drop I need to make good use of the memory function. What's another $85, right?...

I'll post back when it comes in and I have it working. (fingers crossed)
Yup... that will definitely fix it for you! Switching from a 16:9 120 inch screen to my 2.35 142 inch screen was an amazing transformation! You will love it... especially when you set it up to automatically switch! .... when the scope movie starts up and the image automatically widens out and shifts to fill the screen .... pretty damn cool!
deano86 is offline  
post #5591 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 09:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 474 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medi0gre View Post
For lense memory to function correctly top of lens must be no higher than top of sceeen. I.e. switching from 16:9 to scope
Figured this out the hard way... so much for hiding projector In the Soffit
@Medi0gre , you've been very helpful on the PJ mounting height issue. I'm still mulling over this whole issue of mounting distance from ceiling relative to top of screen distance from ceiling, and have a few questions for those of you who've been through this.

@m. zillch , any thoughts on this topic???

First, I can only think of two scenarios, and possibly the setup procedure may differ between these scenarios:
  1. 2.35:1 screen, desire to watch 2.35:1 and 16:9 AR content in native format with CIH
  2. 2.35:1 screen, desire to watch 2.35:1 and 16:9 AR content with 16:9 content zoomed to fill screen

If there are other possible scenarios, please advise.

@HopefulFred , am I correct in presuming your screen is 2.35:1 format? And are you attempting to watch 2.35:1 content natively on that screen and zoom 16:9 content to fill the screen and eliminate the side bars in the process?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
First, I used the manual lens joystick to position the 16:9 image in the center of the screen. Notice that h-area position and v-area position are set to 0.



Second, I used zoom/focus to enlarge the image until it filled the width of the screen. Notice the the top of the image has come down in the process.



Third, I used the v-area position to bring the image up. Obviously, the top of the image didn't move. This function only brings up the bottom while cropping out the top.


So, here are my thoughts and questions for everyone:
  1. If a user desires the experience I outlined above, that HopefulFred wishes to obtain, the issue where the PJ needs to be mounted very close to the top of the screen (or lower) applies, correct?
  2. If a user is not bothered with the side bars when watching 16:9 content, is it possible to mount the PJ higher in elevation (i.e. well above screen top but within vertical offset limits)?
  3. Both the Panasonic manual and Panny's tutorial videos specify setting 2.35:1 screen position first, then save in lens memory, then set 16:9 screen in memory. Is that setup sequence important?

What I'm getting at is: if there's no need to zoom the 16:9 image differently from how the 2.35:1 image is zoomed, does that increase the range of mounting height we've been discussing recently regarding ceiling mounting of the Panasonic AE8000? IOW, if HopefulFred is willing to live with black bars on the sides of 16:9 content, would he be able to mount his PJ higher than the top of the screen?

It appears to me the answer is, 'yes,' but I'd like a definitive answer from someone who knows. I believe this is an important detail relevant to the discussion. If I'm correct, it means the user has a choice between side bars in 16:9 and more mounting position choices or no side bars when using a different zoom on 16:9 vs 2.35:1 content, but at the expense of limiting mounting height choices.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My HT build in progress: The Final Frontier

Quiet Glue: Why Not to Use It
HT Geek is online now  
post #5592 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 09:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 756 Post(s)
Liked: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
What I'm getting at is: if there's no need to zoom the 16:9 image differently from how the 2.35:1 image is zoomed, does that increase the range of mounting height we've been discussing recently regarding ceiling mounting of the Panasonic AE8000? IOW, if HopefulFred is willing to live with black bars on the sides of 16:9 content, would he be able to mount his PJ higher than the top of the screen?

It appears to me the answer is, 'yes,' but I'd like a definitive answer from someone who knows. I believe this is an important detail relevant to the discussion. If I'm correct, it means the user has a choice between side bars in 16:9 and more mounting position choices or no side bars when using a different zoom on 16:9 vs 2.35:1 content, but at the expense of limiting mounting height choices.
There is no getting around the mounting height restriction. Your projector MUST be within the frame of the projected image.

Also keep in mind there really are no 'side bars'. The projector itself is always outputting a 16x9 image, so when you look at it in 16x9 mode that is the full projected image possible. What you perceive as 'side bars' is just unprojected area. When it zooms to 2.35:1 its still projecting 16x9, but the black bars are off the screen and don't matter. This may seem like a nuanced difference, but knowing the difference will help your line of thinking.

It's been like 4 years since I've had this projector but I do know if you try to set 16x9 first then zoom to 2.35:1 it won't line up right. The order is important.
Dreamliner is offline  
post #5593 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 09:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HopefulFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,675
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 521 Post(s)
Liked: 477
I'm afraid you're misreading my goals. I want constant height projection. I'm satisfied by having black bars (not actually black bars, but unprojected area of the screen) to the sides of the 16:9 image.

The best I understand the function of the lens memory system, only two of three lens parameters can be controlled via motors. The focus and zoom are motorized and can be memorized, but the physical position of the lens (up/down/left/right) is manually controlled only (via the plastic knob "joystick").

As a matter of optics, only when the image source ("imaging chip," for lack of more complete technical knowledge on my part) and the lens are perfectly aligned will changing the zoom result in no position shift. Think of it this way: the lens is "projecting" a huge cone of light, much larger than the rectangle of light from the imaging chip. When that cone is changed via zoom, the center remains unchanged but everything else slides either away from or towards the center (depending on zoom in or out). Since the rectangular image is not precisely in the center of the lens and it's cone of projection, it must slide away from the center when the cone is enlarged (zooming in). There are three ways this problem can be overcome: physically move the lens (which the projector can't do without a motor it doesn't have); physically move the imaging chip (which again we don't have a motor for and require all kinds of fancy engineering); or simple use only the portion of the imaging chip that continues to place the image on the part of the screen we want to use. We can do this last part because the 2.35 image does not use the full sensor, being only about 7-800 pixels tall instead of 1080.
HT Geek likes this.
HopefulFred is online now  
post #5594 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 09:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 756 Post(s)
Liked: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
I'm afraid you're misreading my goals. I want constant height projection. I'm satisfied by having black bars (not actually black bars, but unprojected area of the screen) to the sides of the 16:9 image.

The best I understand the function of the lens memory system, only two of three lens parameters can be controlled via motors. The focus and zoom are motorized and can be memorized, but the physical position of the lens (up/down/left/right) is manually controlled only (via the plastic knob "joystick").

As a matter of optics, only when the image source ("imaging chip," for lack of more complete technical knowledge on my part) and the lens are perfectly aligned will changing the zoom result in no position shift. Think of it this way: the lens is "projecting" a huge cone of light, much larger than the rectangle of light from the imaging chip. When that cone is changed via zoom, the center remains unchanged but everything else slides either away from or towards the center (depending on zoom in or out). Since the rectangular image is not precisely in the center of the lens and it's cone of projection, it must slide away from the center when the cone is enlarged (zooming in). There are three ways this problem can be overcome: physically move the lens (which the projector can't do without a motor it doesn't have); physically move the imaging chip (which again we don't have a motor for and require all kinds of fancy engineering); or simple use only the portion of the imaging chip that continues to place the image on the part of the screen we want to use. We can do this last part because the 2.35 image does not use the full sensor, being only about 7-800 pixels tall instead of 1080.
Yep, that is correct. Panasonic electronically zooms and electronically moves the image content. JVC uses physical lens motors. This is the one area that I believe Panasonic is superior. Pixel perfect lens shift is something the JVC's do not do. The JVC does not save the masking to the lens memory, either. This is the second thing I noticed about the JVC. The first was its superior image.
HT Geek likes this.
Dreamliner is offline  
post #5595 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 09:51 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 474 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
There is no getting around the mounting height restriction. Your projector MUST be within the frame of the projected image.
To be clear, you're referring to the scenario I'm describing where a user desires to project either a 2.35:1 or 16:9 image onto a 2.35:1 screen, correct?

The issue is whether or not vertical offset is functional when this is the desired setup. It's clear to me vertical offset works as designed if the user only has a single AR. And I'm trying to ascertain if the issue is related to a combination of the zoom function and changing AR's, or what the hangup is. I'm frustrated (at Panasonic) to discover this limitation after purchasing the PJ. And I have limited mounting options for the PJ due to side rear room entry. This is why I'm pushing for details from those of you who've been through this.


Quote:
Also keep in mind there really are no 'side bars'. The projector itself is always outputting a 16x9 image, so when you look at it in 16x9 mode that is the full projected image possible. What you perceive as 'side bars' is just unprojected area. When it zooms to 2.35:1 its still projecting 16x9, but the black bars are off the screen and don't matter. This may seem like a nuanced difference, but knowing the difference will help your line of thinking.
Good point. I forgot 16:9 is its native AR (or truly its only AR, sans masking).


Quote:
It's been like 4 years since I've had this projector but I do know if you try to set 16x9 first then zoom to 2.35:1 it won't line up right. The order is important.
GTK, as that appears to me one of the issues HopefulFred was encountering.

I'm still wondering if there's also a connection to this issue relative to Zoom. Particularly, if the 16:9 and 2.35:1 require different zooms, I'd like to know if that in conjunction with the vertical offset are creating this limitation. Maybe I'm fishing in the wrong pond here, but I'm trying to grasp how all these adjustments are related (if they are).

It seems to me two different zooms would normally be required to obtain dual 2.35:1 and 16:9 viewing modes. However, what if the PJ were placed at 1.0x zoom for one resolution? That's partly where I'm going with all my questions, if you catch my line of thinking.

Incidentally, I have read of at least one person who got it all working with their PJ mounted 2" above the top of screen; so, I'm convinced there's at least a little wiggle room. It's a question of understanding exactly what all the variables are and how they are interrelated. I'm not satisfied with blanket answers. I want to understand the 'why.'

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My HT build in progress: The Final Frontier

Quiet Glue: Why Not to Use It
HT Geek is online now  
post #5596 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 10:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 756 Post(s)
Liked: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
To be clear, you're referring to the scenario I'm describing where a user desires to project either a 2.35:1 or 16:9 image onto a 2.35:1 screen, correct?
I have a 136" 2.35:1 screen. If you want to fill the screen with 2.35:1 content and also do 16x9 you are going to have to lower your projector or raise your screen. There is no way around it. JVC does have more installation flexibility if you MUST mount over the projected image, but they are much more expensive.

I'm not certain how far along your build is but I'd also like to take a minute to save you from another headache: Buy HDCP 2.2 compatible HDMI cables so when you upgrade your projector to a 4K one, you won't have to replace them.

HDCP 2.2 4K is extremely finicky. I recommend only these cables or these cables if over 25 feet. There are no HDCP 2.2 4K certified cables over 25 feet but many people have had long-run success with the fiber optic HDMI cable I linked. No matter what you buy, if it is 25 feet or shorter and does not say EXACTLY "Certified Premium High Speed" you are taking a risk.
Dreamliner is offline  
post #5597 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 10:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1501 Post(s)
Liked: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Panasonic electronically zooms and electronically moves the image content. JVC uses physical lens motors. This is the one area that I believe Panasonic is superior.
This is not entirely true. JVC uses motorized lens shift whereas Panasonic relies on a jerky manual joystick to perform the same function. Since the manual lens shift cannot be used for automatic switching between aspect ratios, Panasonic also provides a secondary shifting function of the 2.40:1 box within the 16:9 image area. That secondary function only has a very limited range, hence the restriction on the projector mounting height relative to the screen.

Since this secondary shift is done in addition to the physical lens shift, it does not provide any advantage in the image quality.

JVC DLA-RS400
HCFR Bug List
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #5598 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 10:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,295
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 756 Post(s)
Liked: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
This is not entirely true. JVC uses motorized lens shift whereas Panasonic relies on a jerky manual joystick to perform the same function. Since the manual lens shift cannot be used for automatic switching between aspect ratios, Panasonic also provides a secondary shifting function of the 2.40:1 box within the 16:9 image area. That secondary function only has a very limited range, hence the restriction on the projector mounting height relative to the screen.

Since this secondary shift is done in addition to the physical lens shift, it does not provide any advantage in the image quality.
Lens memory has nothing to do with image quality and I'd never say it does. The manual joystick does not matter one bit as it is adjusted once during installation and never touched again.

Panasonic advantages:
Pixel perfect lens memory
Masking saves to lens memory
Zero lens light leak

JVC advantages:
Installation flexibility when projector must be slightly outside projected image.

JVC offers superior image quality, but they are significantly more expensive. If you are mounting within the frame of the projected image, the Panasonic lens memory is superior. I love my JVC but I hate its lens memory system.
Dreamliner is offline  
post #5599 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 10:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1501 Post(s)
Liked: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
The issue is whether or not vertical offset is functional when this is the desired setup. It's clear to me vertical offset works as designed if the user only has a single AR.
Vertical offset does work for dual AR (16:9 and 2.40:1). However, it has very limited range, as all the projector does it to shift the 2.40:1 image box within the total 16:9 image area.

Quote:
And I'm trying to ascertain if the issue is related to a combination of the zoom function and changing AR's, or what the hangup is.
With a CIH system, the projector always has to use two different zooms when switching AR, unless you have an anamorphic lens. The issue you're encountering is caused by the lens shift. With ceiling mounted projector (projecting downwards), the centre of the image would shift down further as you zoom for the large image.

Quote:
Incidentally, I have read of at least one person who got it all working with their PJ mounted 2" above the top of screen; so, I'm convinced there's at least a little wiggle room.
Yes indeed there's a little wiggle room when people say that the projector must be mounted no higher than the top edge of the screen.
HT Geek likes this.

JVC DLA-RS400
HCFR Bug List

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-02-2017 at 10:36 AM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #5600 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 11:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 474 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Thanks to all of you. This is all starting to make more sense to me now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Vertical offset does work for dual AR (16:9 and 2.40:1). However, it has very limited range, as all the projector does it to shift the 2.40:1 image box within the total 16:9 image area.
Right. So, I now understand to the PJ they are both simply 16:9 images. The difference is the 2.40:1 image is larger (zoom out). Since the top and bottom 140 pixels each have no content, they get masked (or black bars) one way or another depending on the PJ.


Quote:
With a CIH system, the projector always has to use two different zooms when switching AR, unless you have an anamorphic lens. The issue you're encountering is caused by the lens shift. With ceiling mounted projector (projecting downwards), the centre of the image would shift down further as you zoom for the large image.


Yes indeed there's a little wiggle room when people say that the projector must be mounted no higher than the top edge of the screen.

So, the PJ must zoom in for 16:9 since it will be the smaller of the image sizes. If I'm following the logic correctly, you're saying the physical lens shift (offset) is accentuated by the delta in electronic zooms, and the combination causes a shift in image centroid on the vertical axis. And the further the PJ is outside the dimensions of the image window, the greater the effect is exacerbated.

If that's true then doesn't this all boil down to the fact the AE8000 does not maintain the same centroid when changing zoom? Or am I missing something here regarding the image chip?

If HopefulFred turned his PJ upside down, wouldn't that allow [V-Area Position] to help rectify his situation? Or would that simply trade one problem for another?

I'm surprised [V-Area Position] did not solve the problem, as the PJ manual indicates that's what it's for.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My HT build in progress: The Final Frontier

Quiet Glue: Why Not to Use It
HT Geek is online now  
post #5601 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 12:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1501 Post(s)
Liked: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
Right. So, I now understand to the PJ they are both simply 16:9 images. The difference is the 2.40:1 image is larger (zoom out). Since the top and bottom 140 pixels each have no content, they get masked (or black bars) one way or another depending on the PJ.
They do not need to be masked, as the pixels with no contents are black.

Quote:
So, the PJ must zoom in for 16:9 since it will be the smaller of the image sizes. If I'm following the logic correctly, you're saying the physical lens shift (offset) is accentuated by the delta in electronic zooms, and the combination causes a shift in image centroid on the vertical axis. And the further the PJ is outside the dimensions of the image window, the greater the effect is exacerbated.
Zooming out the lens (making the image larger) has a similar effect as moving the screen farther away from the projector. If the projector light is aiming downwards (as would be the case with ceiling mounting), as the image gets larger it's also getting lower. The problem would not exist if the projector is mounted at the screen centre height, but that's not usually practical.

Quote:
If that's true then doesn't this all boil down to the fact the AE8000 does not maintain the same centroid when changing zoom? Or am I missing something here regarding the image chip?
It has nothing to do with the image chip. It's just the law of physics, when the light hits the screen at an angle.

Quote:
If HopefulFred turned his PJ upside down, wouldn't that allow [V-Area Position] to help rectify his situation? Or would that simply trade one problem for another?
The latter.

Quote:
I'm surprised [V-Area Position] did not solve the problem, as the PJ manual indicates that's what it's for.
[V-Area Position] is indeed designed to solve the problem, but it only has a limited range (140 pixels each way), so the projector needs to be mounted at about the height of the screen top edge or lower.

JVC DLA-RS400
HCFR Bug List

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-02-2017 at 12:38 PM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #5602 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 12:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
HopefulFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,675
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 521 Post(s)
Liked: 477
What would be cool is a video processor that could move the 2.35 image to the bottom of the frame and for Panasonic to unlock the limit of v-area shift. I'm sure there are processors that could move the image, but the projector still wouldn't move it far enough.
HopefulFred is online now  
post #5603 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 12:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,051
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 474 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It has nothing to do with the image chip. It's just the law of physics, when the light hits the screen at an angle.
Based on your comments above, isn't it actually the light emitting from the PJ is in a cone (as HopefulFred eluded to previously), and the edge of that cone can only stretch but so far? It seems as if the entire image doesn't get transmitted, so there has to be something blocking it. The edge of the lens perhaps??? Whatever it is, I get it that the effect is the same either way and the point seems to be the angle of light output via the lens can only extend so far.

So, the last thing I'm wondering is if moving the projector further from the screen would allow slightly more latitude in PJ height placement, or less. I would think moving the PJ further away from the screen would provide fractionally more room to elevate the PJ image just a bit.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My HT build in progress: The Final Frontier

Quiet Glue: Why Not to Use It
HT Geek is online now  
post #5604 of 5604 Old 08-02-2017, 01:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,256
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1958 Post(s)
Liked: 1247
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Geek View Post
@m. zillch , any thoughts on this topic???

First, I can only think of two scenarios, and possibly the setup procedure may differ between these scenarios:
  1. 2.35:1 screen, desire to watch 2.35:1 and 16:9 AR content in native format with CIH
  2. 2.35:1 screen, desire to watch 2.35:1 and 16:9 AR content with 16:9 content zoomed to fill screen

If there are other possible scenarios, please advise.
Well there's a rare third scenario which is what I do in my rental apartment: project onto an unbounded (no frame), pure white wall. After seeing Total Recall (1990) where Arnold and his evil wife Sharon Stone have constant image height [CIH] projected scenery walls in their kitchen/dining room they change at will, I decided I want that too!

Here's mine in action:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Medi0gre View Post
For lense memory to function correctly top of lens must be no higher than top of sceeen. I.e. switching from 16:9 to scope
Figured this out the hard way... so much for hiding projector In the Soffit
Yes, that was my experience as well for the auto zoom CIH, or whatever they call it feature to work optimally. In order to see the full, uncropped image of both 1.78 and 2.35 content with the same, constant height, but variable width, one should mount the pj at the center point of the screen and no higher than the top edge of the screen. Projecting downward at an even sharper angle is asking for trouble. As I have it setup this way the V-Area Position is set to "33" for 2.35 content and "0" for 1.78 content and attempting any value greater than 33 would crop the 2.35 image, [at least as I have it setup, but I suspect this hard limit of 33 is true for everyone using 2.35 content, although I'm not 100% certain.]
HT Geek likes this.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 08-02-2017 at 03:22 PM.
m. zillch is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Darbeevision Darblet Hdmi Video Processor , Epson 5020ub Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector , green , issue , Jvc Dla X35 3d Hd Front Projector , Panasonic Pt Ae4000u 1600 Lumen Lcd Home Theater Projector , Panasonic Pt Ae7000u 1080p Full Hd Projector , Panasonic Ptae8000u Hd Projector , PT-AE8000 , PT-AT6000 , PT-AT6000E , Sony Vpl Hw50es 3d Projector

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off