Official Sony VPL-HW50ES Owners Thread - Page 100 - AVS Forum
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post #2971 of 3469 Old 11-18-2013, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 316 View Post

The pitch is noted in earlier posts...I thought this was fixed????

It was fixed. However, refurbished/B-stock units may still have this issue.
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post #2972 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 12:40 AM
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Thanks William.....so what does one do if they have the issue? Is it a firmware fix? Or a factory service issue? I will try and catch up on posts to see but in the meantime if someone has the answer...greatly appreciate it.

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #2973 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 01:26 AM
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Must have crossed posts somehow...I see the solution....thank you William!

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #2974 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 05:11 AM
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You must send it in for a mod...
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post #2975 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Hey there! Glad you're enjoying the HW50ES! It's a pretty great projector, and I love mine.

I think I can probably address your questions:

1.) If you're used to passive 3D, then this 240hz active 3D will be a bit of a shock to the system. What you're seeing with motion is NORMAL. Some people are more sensitive to it than others. My wife absolutely hates active shutter 3D, and refuses to watch 3D on this projector because she thinks it is, for lack of a better word - sh*t. I can't really argue with her. I understand perfectly what you say when you want more frames per second in 3D, but turning on frame creation is just a little too much soap-opera feel. It would be great if it were possible to use a lower frame creation setting, that's for sure... I definitely notice what you're seeing, though, and along with the flicker it's just something I'm trying to deal with.

2.) If you're hearing a buzzing when running 3D, I'm guessing you got B-stock for AVS, which is in this case an early build HW50ES. The early builds suffered from this buzzing when 3D is enabled. The workaround is to use the external emitter, Sony TMR-PJ2. That will bypass the built-in emitter and eliminate the buzz. You may want to speak to AVS, since Sony originally provided these emitters for free for people with this issue. Not sure how it all works now, since that problem has been solved in the later builds of the projector (mine included, that I got new last month).

FYI, on my previous projector, the Sony HW30ES, I used the external emitter (the HW30ES didn't have the built-in one) and it absolutely murdered my Sony BDP-S5100 Blu-ray player's ability to receive IR commands. Since I got the HW50ES, I've not had that issue since I use the internal emitter. Not sure what would happen if I started using the external again..

In terms of tweaks and tricks, Cinema 1 is the perfect place to start. You can improve to some degree with a full calibration, but unless you're incredibly hardcore about such things, your picture right now is probably more than adequate. I recommend turning on Reality Creation and setting it to the absolute lowest level, with any noise reduction/contrast enhancer crap turned OFF. I really like the bare-bones lowest level Reality Creation with no other options enabled. Also, turn the glasses brightness level down one notch on the projector which will eliminate 99% of crosstalk that I've noticed in 3D movies.


Enjoy your projector!


I guess I should chime in here as I had the internal emitter buzz on a recently purchased B-Stock HW50 from AVS. Turns out mine was an early production unit which was labeled with a refurbish date of 12/5/2012. Mike at AVS went to bat for me with Sony and they did provide me with the external emitter TMR-PJ2. This completely cured the problem. Luckily the flood of IR from the transmitter does not affect any of my other components (Onkyo Pre/Pro, Oppo 103D, DirecTV reciever).

I too notice th 3D flicker and motion issues in 3D....... I can't say that it doesn't bother me, but I guess you just have to live with it.......this is my first experience with 3D at home.....

Other than that, I am truly happy with this projector, which is waaaaaay better than the Sanyo Z5 that it replaced.

Also very happy with Mike at AVS.... transaction was smooth and I am thankful for his assistance in getting the external emitter for me.

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post #2976 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 11:33 AM
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I contacted Mike, looks like I'll be buying the emitter part...I have zero interest in trying to send this thing anywhere for a firmware or component fix. Not sure how old mine is but it wasn't presented as an option so, I'm going shopping.

Looks like my Peerless universal mount is also going to need replacing, the Sony is pushing its maximum weight rating of 25lbs.

Can anyone suggest a mount? I need 13" of drop from the ceiling to mount this projector properly...can't go higher (its clearing a drop ceiling with one panel removed) and don't really want to go lower from the ceiling.

To touch upon the 3D thing for one more moment, does the PJ always default to 1080/24 if the source is 1080p?

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post #2977 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

I contacted Mike, looks like I'll be buying the emitter part...I have zero interest in trying to send this thing anywhere for a firmware or component fix. Not sure how old mine is but it wasn't presented as an option so, I'm going shopping.

Looks like my Peerless universal mount is also going to need replacing, the Sony is pushing its maximum weight rating of 25lbs.

Can anyone suggest a mount? I need 13" of drop from the ceiling to mount this projector properly...can't go higher (its clearing a drop ceiling with one panel removed) and don't really want to go lower from the ceiling.

To touch upon the 3D thing for one more moment, does the PJ always default to 1080/24 if the source is 1080p?

I've been on AVSForum for a very long time, it felt good to finally throw them some business smile.gif

Hi HeadRusch,

I was lucky to find a Chief RPA mount and an SLB020 plate on ebay really cheap (less than $50.00 combined!). I think the mount is great and the dedicated plate is much better than the universal arms. Very solid and secure. I did not need a drop, but you will still need a ceiling flange and a 1.5 inch piece of pipe, NPT threaded both ends (Home Depot) to drop yours where you need to be.......

As far as the emitter, you may want to check the refurbish sticker that was on the plastic surrounding the projector as packed and also the serial number of the unit. If it is an older unit, I would call Sony direct and be persistant, but nice.....

Good luck!
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post #2978 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

I contacted Mike, looks like I'll be buying the emitter part...I have zero interest in trying to send this thing anywhere for a firmware or component fix. Not sure how old mine is but it wasn't presented as an option so, I'm going shopping.

Looks like my Peerless universal mount is also going to need replacing, the Sony is pushing its maximum weight rating of 25lbs.

Can anyone suggest a mount? I need 13" of drop from the ceiling to mount this projector properly...can't go higher (its clearing a drop ceiling with one panel removed) and don't really want to go lower from the ceiling.

To touch upon the 3D thing for one more moment, does the PJ always default to 1080/24 if the source is 1080p?

I've been on AVSForum for a very long time, it felt good to finally throw them some business smile.gif

Definitely not worth sending a refurb unit off when for the low cost of an external emitter you can eliminate the problem. However, you'll have to decide where to position the external emitter. The emitter itself is very small and connects to the projector using a standard Ethernet cable. Many here, just mount it on top the projector (it comes with a double-sided sticky pad). I had previously run some cat-5 cable from my projector position to the front of the room before the drywall went up. So i mounted the emitter on top of my center-channel speaker which is itself mounted above the projector screen. This floods the glasses with direct (as opposed to reflected) IR signals and sync is rock-solid. Assuming your video components (or their IR receiver in a repeater network) is facing the viewer, the IR signal form the emitter in such a location will not interfere with the control of your components. This was a huge benefit to me of mounting the emitter at the front of the room pointed towards the viewer.

I purchased a Peerless universal mount from Amazon which is rated at 50 lbs and works great.
You will also need the ceiling mount and an extension column to give you your desired 13" of drop. Amazon shows one which is adjustable from 6" to 9", which is what I employ in my installation and should get you a net drop of 13" (measuring from ceiling to lens center).

I think the PJ and the source unit both default to 1080P/24Hz for 3D. I also don't think you can change it. It would be interesting to experiment with 1080P/30Hz/60Hz. I'd gladly sacrifice some smoothness in motion to reduce the flicker that is evident when bright objects move rapidly.
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post #2979 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post


1.) If you're used to passive 3D, then this 240hz active 3D will be a bit of a shock to the system. What you're seeing with motion is NORMAL.

I guess I don't understand the technology because 240Hz should be a sufficiently high refresh rate to avoid any perceptible flicker.

I assume the 240Hz is the refresh rate of the LCOS panels, which in 3D mode would reduce to 120Hz per eye. That should be more than enough and is 5 times the native (24Hz) rate. Anything at 3X rate (72Hz) should give flicker-free images. What I'm seeing looks more like a 48Hz rate per eye, which would give a total refresh rate of 96Hz, well below the 240Hz spec.

Anyhow, the flicker with the 50ES is only NORMAL within the confines of this model. Even then, whether it is noticeable is hugely dependent on your source material. I generally do not recommend live-action movies to be watched in 3D on these units and reserve that experience for animated fare.
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post #2980 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ktoolsie View Post

Definitely not worth sending a refurb unit off when for the low cost of an external emitter you can eliminate the problem. However, you'll have to decide where to position the external emitter. The emitter itself is very small and connects to the projector using a standard Ethernet cable. Many here, just mount it on top the projector (it comes with a double-sided sticky pad). I had previously run some cat-5 cable from my projector position to the front of the room before the drywall went up. So i mounted the emitter on top of my center-channel speaker which is itself mounted above the projector screen. This floods the glasses with direct (as opposed to reflected) IR signals and sync is rock-solid. Assuming your video components (or their IR receiver in a repeater network) is facing the viewer, the IR signal form the emitter in such a location will not interfere with the control of your components. This was a huge benefit to me of mounting the emitter at the front of the room pointed towards the viewer.

I purchased a Peerless universal mount from Amazon which is rated at 50 lbs and works great.
You will also need the ceiling mount and an extension column to give you your desired 13" of drop. Amazon shows one which is adjustable from 6" to 9", which is what I employ in my installation and should get you a net drop of 13" (measuring from ceiling to lens center).

I think the PJ and the source unit both default to 1080P/24Hz for 3D. I also don't think you can change it. It would be interesting to experiment with 1080P/30Hz/60Hz. I'd gladly sacrifice some smoothness in motion to reduce the flicker that is evident when bright objects move rapidly.

I have a drop ceiling (as I believe Headrusch does). It was easy to string a Cat5 cable to the front of the theatre. I then mounted the emitter from the ceiling tracking, pointing back at the audience. Good luck with that double sided tape though.... I had to glue mine. I agree that this direct IR signal is rock solid!.......and does not interfere with my components that are built into the side wall of the theatre.

I believe I read earlier in this thread, many pages back, that some members went into the service menu and decreased the strength of the internal IR emitter, which helped in reduciung the buzz. You may want to wander back and find that info and try for yourself,. However, if you have a large theatre then you are just asking for sync problems. I have a pretty large theatre and I had sync issues with the included glasses (not PS3 glasses) and I did not attempt to enter the service menu.

if you are not adventurous enough to play in the service menu then the external emitter is the way to go......
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post #2981 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktoolsie View Post

I guess I don't understand the technology because 240Hz should be a sufficiently high refresh rate to avoid any perceptible flicker.

I assume the 240Hz is the refresh rate of the LCOS panels, which in 3D mode would reduce to 120Hz per eye. That should be more than enough and is 5 times the native (24Hz) rate. Anything at 3X rate (72Hz) should give flicker-free images. What I'm seeing looks more like a 48Hz rate per eye, which would give a total refresh rate of 96Hz, well below the 240Hz spec.

Anyhow, the flicker with the 50ES is only NORMAL within the confines of this model. Even then, whether it is noticeable is hugely dependent on your source material. I generally do not recommend live-action movies to be watched in 3D on these units and reserve that experience for animated fare.

I don't think the glasses refresh at the panel refresh rate.......if I look at my Pre/Pro's or Oppo's display with the 3D glasses on, you can certainly see the flicker.....not sure if it's 48Hz..... but it certainly is not 240Hz.
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post #2982 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 01:22 PM
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I have a drop ceiling (as I believe Headrusch does). It was easy to string a Cat5 cable to the front of the theatre. I then mounted the emitter from the ceiling tracking, pointing back at the audience. Good luck with that double sided tape though.... I had to glue mine. I agree that this direct IR signal is rock solid!.......and does not interfere with my components that are built into the side wall of the theatre.

Drop ceilings are great for running cable after the initial installation is complete. I contemplated going that route but did not want to sacrifice the celining height and the aesthetics. I ran a conduit from my equipment room to the porjector mounting point instead. I recently added a new HDMI cable to the old DVI one, with the minimum of bother.

Getting back to the topic at hand, if you have a drop-ceiling the external emitter becomes even more of a no-brainer.
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post #2983 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 01:26 PM
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I don't think the glasses refresh at the panel refresh rate.......if I look at my Pre/Pro's or Oppo's display with the 3D glasses on, you can certainly see the flicker.....not sure if it's 48Hz..... but it certainly is not 240Hz.

I find it hard to believe that Sony couldn't make glasses that would keep up with their panels. Optoma and Benq can sell cheap glasses that don't exhibit flicker on sub $1K DLP projectors. I have to think that the limitation is the panel not the glasses.
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post #2984 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajaPete View Post

I have a drop ceiling (as I believe Headrusch does). It was easy to string a Cat5 cable to the front of the theatre. I then mounted the emitter from the ceiling tracking, pointing back at the audience. Good luck with that double sided tape though.... I had to glue mine. I agree that this direct IR signal is rock solid!.......and does not interfere with my components that are built into the side wall of the theatre.
quote]

Drop ceilings are great for running cable after the initial installation is complete. I contemplated going that route but did not want to sacrifice the celining height and the aesthetics. I ran a conduit from my equipment room to the porjector mounting point instead. I recently added a new HDMI cable to the old DVI one, with the minimum of bother.
.

Good that you had the foresight to run the conduit.........definitely helps! At our old house I had a drywall ceiling in the theatre and it was painful fishing cable.....probably why I moved...LOL....
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post #2985 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ktoolsie View Post

I find it had to believe that Sony couldn't make glasses that would keep up with their panels. Optoma and Benq can sell cheap glasses that don't exhibit flicker on sub $1K DLP projectors. I have to think that the limitation is the panel not the glasses.

I wonder then what am i seeing when looking at my components?????? Fan in front of a TV effect????
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post #2986 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 01:34 PM
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I wonder then what am i seeing when looking at my components?????? Fan in front of a TV effect????

Exactly. Remember that your components' displays are also being refreshed at some rate. However they are NOT synchronized with the 3D glasses and all sorts of beat frequencies can result.
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post #2987 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

Looks like my Peerless universal mount is also going to need replacing, the Sony is pushing its maximum weight rating of 25lbs.

Can anyone suggest a mount? I need 13" of drop from the ceiling to mount this projector properly...can't go higher (its clearing a drop ceiling with one panel removed) and don't really want to go lower from the ceiling.

I'd also look at the Chief RSA020 which will work with their mini RPA mounts. It is also a dedicated/custom plate but the mount is a bit smaller. It is plenty stout for the projector. I tried their universal mount, but the arms can't be fully secured. I found that any lens adjustment or cable plugging/unplugging would spoil alignment.
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post #2988 of 3469 Old 11-19-2013, 04:20 PM
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The Chief mount numbers are normally combined with either a universal set of flimsy legs called-unv or a dedicated plate for the projector either SLB020 for the RPA mount of SLMA020 for the locking mount. Ordered together it would be RPA020 or RPMA020. The plate for the Sony and the mount itself, either keyed locking (RPMA) or non keyed (RPA).. call the guys at AV Science they will fix you up..

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post #2989 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 01:40 AM
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My HW50 arrived late today. No time to check it out yet had to run off to work but i'm already regretting this purchase before I even open the box. Should have went with my gut feeling and got the RS46. I don't want 3D headaches which is why I passed on the RS46. I can deal with the external emiter but not funky flickering 3D. The knock on the JVC is 3D brightness but since I plan on stacking a pair the brightnes issue should have been okay with the 46 but figured I could get even better with the HW50 but now it sounds like I will get brighter but quality will go to crap. Not good. mad.gif

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #2990 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 04:59 AM
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Not everyone's experience is going to be the same. I've watched 15+ 3D movies and don't notice any flicker.

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post #2991 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 05:57 AM
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It very well could be some are more sensitive than others so they return it and sony repackages it and sends it to the next guy who is not sensitive and also hope he is hard of hearing and does not hear the 3D buzz and they label that projector a b stock. Sounds to me like that's the way it works but the guy with the b stock does not get the extra bulb or the external emiter....Sony can't loose...no wonder I got a good deal...

Sure seems like that's how it plays out thus far otherwise every b stock would not have a buzz issue for one, because knowing its an issue, the moment its returned the factory should fix it before they send the pj back out.... and maybe the flicker is the pj, not the viewer. That raised my curiosity and got me searching...sure are a lot of used HW50's out there for sale....

I sure hope I got it wrong. Guess i'll figure it out this weekend when I set it up on my extra screen.

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #2992 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 09:27 AM
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Not everyone's experience is going to be the same. I've watched 15+ 3D movies and don't notice any flicker.

The source material makes a huge difference.

I've watched many a 3D movie where I have not been distracted by flicker at all, and where the 3D has been so immersive as to make me smile. Finding NEMO is my go to disk for not showing any flicker.

The very start of Monster house with the little girl on her trike going past the picket fence has terrible flicker, but thereafter it only rarely shows up and the movie is great fun in 3D.

I also wonder if light control plays a part. I have a very light controlled room - black ceiling, black chairs, black back wall, dark plum side walls. I turn the lights ALL off when I watch 3D as the brighter image provides sufficient ambient light. I would think that in such a dark environment, flicker would be more evident relative to a room with much more ambient light. I'll have to put my hypothesis to a test tonight.
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post #2993 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 09:47 AM
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Exactly. Remember that your components' displays are also being refreshed at some rate. However they are NOT synchronized with the 3D glasses and all sorts of beat frequencies can result.

Since this got me thinking....yesterday afternoon I did a little more observation.....The observed flicker as I look at each of my component's displays are at a constant rate...... I then turned on the lights in the theatre and observed the flicker looking at incandescent lighting and once again it mimics the rate on the component displays. I then opened the door to the theatre and looked at natural light through the basement windows in the adjoining game room and once again the flicker is shown through the glasses. So it truly is that the glasses refresh rate (as triggered by the PJ) is much more slow than the panel refresh rate..........

I'lll let the experts here comment on the rate of shuttering on the glasses.......

now my apologies to 316 if I got him all worked up.......As Ktoolsie mentioned, the flicker is percievable in actual content mostly in fast moving scenes. I suspect most 3D implementations with other projectors is similar, but that is only a theory..... once again maybe the likes of Zombie can chime in.....

Bottom line.....316....try the PJ you got and see if it bothers you before jumping to any conclusions.

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post #2994 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 04:42 PM
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This is probably a dumb question, but I've never had a projector with manual lens adjustments before. Is it normal for there to be play in the wheels? It's like they just stop grabbing and sort of spin freely and then they'll grab again and continue to adjust.

The reason I ask is because I can't get this image to square up no matter what i do. It's the 4th pj I've had and I've never had a problem like this. I thought it was my screen because I just put a larger one up but I'm not so sure anymore. It seems no matter how crazy of an angle I put the projector at relative to the screen the imagine slants up towards the right.
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post #2995 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 06:33 PM
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Bottom line.....316....try the PJ you got and see if it bothers you before jumping to any conclusions.

BajaPete

smile.gif Thank you....my investment is times two so that's why it's more important to me...I'm eventually going to run a stack of two projectors as stated so I cannot afford to be wrong on one. With the way returns work its better if I do not open the box and return it rather than play with it because then I'm pretty much stuck with it. Thank you however for being honest in your assessment of the projector that's what helps to make better informed decisions for all of us. Nobody likes to admit when they spent lots of $$$ and spent it wrong (or could have spent it better).

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #2996 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monger View Post

This is probably a dumb question, but I've never had a projector with manual lens adjustments before. Is it normal for there to be play in the wheels? It's like they just stop grabbing and sort of spin freely and then they'll grab again and continue to adjust.

The reason I ask is because I can't get this image to square up no matter what i do. It's the 4th pj I've had and I've never had a problem like this. I thought it was my screen because I just put a larger one up but I'm not so sure anymore. It seems no matter how crazy of an angle I put the projector at relative to the screen the imagine slants up towards the right.

Are you at the end of travel and then they grab when going in the oppostie direction? If so I would imagine that is to protect the wheels from stripping out and more of a protection from damage than anything else.. Sloppy wheel adjustment is what I have experienced with Epson projectors That's why I won't buy another one.

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post #2997 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monger View Post

This is probably a dumb question, but I've never had a projector with manual lens adjustments before. Is it normal for there to be play in the wheels? It's like they just stop grabbing and sort of spin freely and then they'll grab again and continue to adjust.

The reason I ask is because I can't get this image to square up no matter what i do. It's the 4th pj I've had and I've never had a problem like this. I thought it was my screen because I just put a larger one up but I'm not so sure anymore. It seems no matter how crazy of an angle I put the projector at relative to the screen the imagine slants up towards the right.
The lens adjustment is just for shift. Up/Down and Left/Right. Neither of those wheels would affect squaring up your image. Check to see that any keystone settings are at 0. Also check to make sure your projector is level. Up and to the right sounds like a tilt issue. Check the level across the flat part of the unit (facing the ceiling if that's how you have it mounted)

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post #2998 of 3469 Old 11-20-2013, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Are you at the end of travel and then they grab when going in the oppostie direction? If so I would imagine that is to protect the wheels from stripping out and more of a protection from damage than anything else.. Sloppy wheel adjustment is what I have experienced with Epson projectors That's why I won't buy another one.

It's not at the end. I have the projector pretty well centered horizontally and within the screen vertically. It seems like when it does it the lens has a "wobble" to it which is what alarmed me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blipszyc View Post

The lens adjustment is just for shift. Up/Down and Left/Right. Neither of those wheels would affect squaring up your image. Check to see that any keystone settings are at 0. Also check to make sure your projector is level. Up and to the right sounds like a tilt issue. Check the level across the flat part of the unit (facing the ceiling if that's how you have it mounted)

Thanks. Keystone is zero, I'll check the tilt again. It's on a table that hasn't moved since the older Sony it replaced which was fine, but maybe something happened.
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post #2999 of 3469 Old 11-21-2013, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monger View Post

It's not at the end. I have the projector pretty well centered horizontally and within the screen vertically. It seems like when it does it the lens has a "wobble" to it which is what alarmed me.
Thanks. Keystone is zero, I'll check the tilt again. It's on a table that hasn't moved since the older Sony it replaced which was fine, but maybe something happened.
If it's on a table, put a magazine under the opposite side where the tilt is and see if that squares it up. Could be a crooked panel, which means you'd have to send it in. frown.gif

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post #3000 of 3469 Old 11-21-2013, 05:43 AM
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at 5.3 meter throw distance for 120 inches 1.0 screen, is HW50 brighter than JVC x35/RS46? Thanks.
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