Official Sony VPL-HW50ES Owners Thread - Page 118 - AVS Forum
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post #3511 of 3515 Unread 12-07-2014, 05:22 PM
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Is this projector still considered a good buy?

How would it hold up against the Epson 5030? I can get the Sony for about $3200 2nd hand here in NZ or am I best to pay an extra $500 and get the Epson 5030 brand new?
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post #3512 of 3515 Unread 12-09-2014, 09:03 AM
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"we ware having some issues with shrinking color spaces and all colors drifting towards blue with Sony HW50 and also VW90/95 and also the gamma value goes down, even at only a few hundred hours. It seems to be an ongoing process and after a while you won't be able to even recalibrate the colors to the Rec709 colorspace, and even with gamma setting 2.6 in the menu you can't reach at least 2.2. Some projectors also seem to lose native on/off-contrast."


First of all, thank you for reporting the anomaly seen on your PJ's. Just so we are on the same page, I also use "Chroma Pure" software and a spectroradiometer for measurements.


Addressing the color space issue first. At 2300+ hours and with a hour of tweaking, I was able to nearly peg every primary/secondary to r709 specs with the tools available on the pj. Had it drifted from new? Certainly, but not more than I have seen with other displays/PJ's over the years since starting as an ISF tech in '01-'02. While much is made of colorspace here on this site and others, quite frankly the discrepancies in measured perfection and then the difference seen by the naked eye with regard to colorspace, are limited by the imperfections in our own eyes. While I hesitate to say that accurate colorspace is not a big issue, it certainly causes less problems than say improper white and black level settings or color temperature misalignments.


Gamma, on my projector is still at 2.2-2.4 depending on the high/low lamp setting and I was able to still calibrate to d65 with very low de. from 20 to 100 ire.


That being said I have the following questions if I may.


1. When Ekki was taking his measurements was his probe directed at the screen or the PJ? It is difficult to see in the pix


2. Did he move the probe to a more central location and re shoot for results? (I have found that color uniformity on the Sony is not one of its strong points.)


3. Your measurement results do not appear to show a before/after gray scale calibration. Were you able to reign in the preponderance of blue?


Again, I personally thank you for the report and links. It prompted me to un furl my gear and take a reading. I had calibrated my setup when new and touched it up at about 500 hours but I had not checked it since. My projector, still with the original lamp, did not see the drift that yours did but that could well be that your projector and mine came from completely different batches, and possibly, different manufacturing sites.


Doug k

Imaging Science Foundation Technician ( Almost Retired )
www.6500kcalibrations.com

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post #3513 of 3515 Unread 12-10-2014, 08:16 AM
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Hi William and Doug,

thanks for your answers. So the problem is not totally unknown here at AVS.

Btw: VW90 and 95 are also affected as it seems.
@Doug : How old is your pj?
The suspicion is that it has to do with the total age of the pj rather than lamp time. My HW50 and the one I measured from "Nasty_Boy" in hifi-forum are some of the firste ones that have been delivered, from Oct. and Nov. 2012.
Last weekend I measured a HW50 with 1600 hrs on the lamp, this pj was from March 2013. It also showed the drifts toward blue and low gamma, but was easier to recalibrate as the one from "Nasty_Boy". And this is your answer your question nr. 3: Yes the projector of "Nasty_Boy" was recalibratable (is that the right term?), but not so easily. The white point at 10 IRE I could not bring back to 6500 K. While all other IREs are ok, 10 IRE is way too green, blue is totally missing. I know that measurements at low IREs are difficult even with my Eye One Display 3, but you can easily see it with the naked eye that the lowest greyscales are too green.
Concerning gamma: The highest setting in the picture menu is 2.6. With this setting we reached a real gamma of 2.1 which is still a bit on the low side, since Nasty_Boy has a room with many dark walls and ceiling so he could watch with a higher gamma. But with menu settings no higher gamma is possible. For this I'd have to use the Image Director software I think. Haven't used it before because a) the Sonys normally are very good out of the box ore easy to calibrate with the menu and b) using the software is a bit cumbersome, as you need a RS232-to-USB-cable etc. I'd like to have an Image Director app for my tablet...
Regarding colors I also managed to recalibrate both projectors to Rec709, using one of the (still) bigger color spaces 2 or 3 and the RCP. What I've not done yet is to measure some colors inside the color space (and not only at the extreme saturation points) to see how linear the calibration is.
The pj with 1600 hrs lamp time was extremely dark btw. I measured 540 lumen in HIGH lamp mode....

You said your gamma depends on low or high lamp mode? This seems unusal. I measured 3 HW50 in the last weeks all in high and low lamp mode and gamma (and contrast) remains the same basically.


Concerning your other 2 questions about Ekkis measurements: I don't know exactly but I think he measures reflective and in the middle of the screen.
Since Ekki is doing projector reviews and calibrations for many many years now and is also internationally known, I'm totally sure that he knows what he's doing!
Afaik he has also an account at AVS, so you could send him a pm with your questions.

Christian
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post #3514 of 3515 Unread 12-10-2014, 02:40 PM
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Mine was purchased late in 2012.
I should have said "not depending" on high/low lamp setting...sorry.

My probe does an awful job at or below 10 ire as well. I sacrifice the numbers there and correct by eye. Since we see green better than other low light colors, I was taught to do this.

I know that when I move my probe to different areas og the screen, my results change. The color uniformity issue I mentioned. From the pix it appeared that the probe was in the lower left quadrant, but it could be that the angle of the photo made it appear so.

To me, drift is a normal occurance. It has been reduced somewhat by todays tech but I was weened on CRT's.... Talk about drift!

Doug k
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post #3515 of 3515 Unread 12-12-2014, 02:33 PM
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People can you give some advice, thanks in advance

So my doubt is between Sony Hw50 or Hw40?? I found in my country a Hw50 cheaper than hw40 and with 2 years of warranty, what are your advice??

Best regards.
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post #3516 of 3515 Unread Today, 10:06 AM
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I purchased my HW50 in December 2012, today it has already done roughly 800 hours with the same lamp

after reading last posts here I recognized there was maybe a little problem with red saturation... I was also not completely satisfied about gamma... so I decided to connect everything together and test the situation

I have an i1 Display PRO + Colormunky Design (to calibrate i1) + Calman 5 Enthusiast + dvdo duo

the pj was setted as follow (right from the beginning):
- lamp low
- iris: auto-limited (but when I calibrate it I use to switch to fix and value 40 that is roughly equivalent in my app)
- color temperature: user 3 (D65)
- gamma: 2,2
- color space: BT709

the result of testing was... a gamut smaller than the standard selected, no way to expand it at the targets (I tested with and without the dvdo CMS engaged), gamma roughly 2,1 … last time I calibrate it everything was quite on target, roughly the lamp was at 500 hours (400 hours/year)


to recover the correct situation I setted the pj as follow:
- lamp low
- iris: fixed at 20 (I wanted deeper blacks and I preferred to close the iris in fixed position instead of using the dynamic mode that doesn't lower in the same manner the black in more common contents)
- color temperature: user 3
- gamma: 2,6 (necessary to go as close as possible to target BT1886 before final fine adjustment with Calman5)
- color space: color space 1 (color space 2 or 3 are too wide)


starting from this settings I had a color space wider than the target BT709 for all the three colors... point D65 almost on spot from the beginning...

using the CMS inside the projector was quite easy to shrink the values 100% at their targets but with big problems about almost all values 80% (and lower) that were quite under saturated... so I switched to 80% targets (generated by Duo so 100% saturation and 80% stimulus) to calibrate the HW50 CMS on that, this time the modification inside the CMS required smaller variations (and this is in my experience always a good sign) to calibrate the values... checking again the full gamut I found all the values from 20% to 80% perfectly on target, the 100% remain wider but this is IMHO not so important. I didn't use the CMS control inside Dvdo as it was not necessary at all (I also had bad experience with autocal functionality and CMS in the past... imho it is not reliable enough)

after that I checked the colors with the "color checker" inside Calman and the results were all perfectly on target

the gamma was close to value 2,15 using controls inside the pj with deltaE well below 3... using autocal inside Calman (with gamma it works in fantastic way) I perfectly reach the targets (BT1886) with deltaE lower than 0,5 on all IRE


so, seems that even after 2 years is still possible to calibrate the projector and compensate the drift in gamut... in any case I'm wondering why it happens, what are the components inside the pj that with ageing generate this problem and if this problem will stops now or if it will continue in future maybe with smaller steps


my 2 cents
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