HC7800D vs HD8300 vs Sharp XV-Z17000 in 2D - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 03:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Did anyone have a chance to compare them side by side? I've read a lot of reviews but they were not very helpful in comparing.

2D picture quality is my main concern - contrast (both native and dynamic), black level, auto Iris.

Thank you.
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post #2 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 04:58 AM
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For 2D that is easy, the Optoma hd8300 is the winner. Actually, the Optoma hd8300 wins in both 2D and 3D over those others, so now that makes it really easy. I don't know anyone that has compared them directly, but I do know people in here that did compare the hd8300 to the other DLP's and other 3D this year, and the Optoma hd8300 has the best 2D image of the DLP's from the past couple years as far as 3D capable ones until we get into the higher-end units. Some also compared the hd8300 to the JVC RS-45, and it did fairly well against it even for 2D. Black levels on the hd8300 are not quite to say Epson 8700ub levels, but they are easily equal to or maybe slightly better than the Panny 4000/7000.

One projector that might beat the hd8300 is the Mits hc8000 that is coming out. The IRIS on the hc7800 is poorly designed, and the Optoma's IRIS is more about average for a DLP IRIS (still not perfect, but decent). The Optoma also has the highest Native On/Off of those three by a decent margin.


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I own the HD8300, known as HD83 in europe. Well, i just use if for 3D as I have an RS45 for 2D aswell and an old Sanyo FullHD for tv viewing.
Besides that ,the HD83 does excellent with 2D material. Good native contrast for DLP, very much pop and superb sharpness. No RBE visible - which for me was a big deal as with every other DLP I used i was sensitive to RBE.
At it's price point the HD83 is a winner both in 2D and 3D.
Not to forget the very good lens shift range for a DLP.
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post #4 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 08:13 AM
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Nice setup, so what are your thoughts on the hd8300 vs. the RS-45?
Obviously the RS-45 has better blacks...


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post #5 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Nice setup, so what are your thoughts on the hd8300 vs. the RS-45?
Obviously the RS-45 has better blacks...

Yes, no doubt that the Optoma has no chance in terms of native on/off. In my batcave with almost full projection distance blacks are awesome.
Well, I like the Optoma HD83(00) very much in terms of sharpness and it's smoothness by the perfect interpolation. But honestly I am not a big friend of DLP for 2D viewing since my very first JVC. JVC does project such a beautiful analog like image - no way I wanna see 2D on the Optoma.
I just bought the HD83 for viewing 3D as I needed a DLP for ghosting free 3D including a good amount of lens shift. In it's price class there was no other DLP with that amount of lens shift needed.

Sure, getting 3 projectors, like me, is not possible for all people.
If you only wanna see 2D movies and you wanna get close as possible to 35mm in that price range I still recommend a JVC. If you wanna buy a single projector for both 2D and 3D and, maybe even fot TV or gaming, then the HD83 is the way to go. It projects an incredible 3D picture as well as a beautiful 2D image.
If you like the look and pop of DLP you'll gonna have much fun with the Optoma.

If you just wanna stick with 2D I'd prefer a D-ILA projector.
Maybe the new, small Sony comes close to the JVC in terms of 2D with a great 3D picture. Have a look at the new Sony.
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post #6 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 08:56 AM
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I own the RS-45 as well, and am still considering getting the hd8300 as a second projector. However, lightly considering selling the RS-45 and keeping the hd8300 for all purposes (maybe)...


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post #7 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

One projector that might beat the hd8300 is the Mits hc8000 that is coming out.

+1

Read the Proj Central review on the HC8000 they just put out.
Remember, its a CEDIA-only unit so you cant get it everywhere but if you are in the US, it wont be much of an issue as you can always get it from AVS.

  • Mitsi internal build quality & optics
  • Mitsi famed lamp longevity [spare lamp included in base price]
  • Extra year warranty [2+1] with express parts replacement
  • Out of the box, it has almost reference level color in 2D in its Cinema mode [this is common on Mitsi's, my HD1000U 720p is the same]
  • 3D @ 1080p/60 per eye for much-reduced strobe/flicker [have to turn this on but its only present on this model in their lineup and they called it 3D @ 120Hz]
  • Compatibe with new [NOT the 7800 models] lighter, faster and, therefore, brighter Mitsi 3D glasses [button cell] as well as with any universal IR-sync glasses
  • Doesnt force the 3D settings on 3D mode, instead you can choose them every time or use the Cinema mode settings if you have a smaller screen
  • Black level/contrast is reported to be very good with the IRIS on High
  • Is ISF-calibration ready
  • Allows the viewer to change the color wheel to 6x mode in 2D [default is 4x]

One of the negatives though, is that it doesnt come with its proprietary 3D IR emitter, which you have to spend an extra $100 on, but thats a one-time thing and I am sure AVS can include that as a freebie.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/mitsubishi_hc8000d_full_hd_3d_projector_review.htm
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post #8 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure HD8300 is a great projector itself, but I'm torn between HD8300 and HC7800D (and perhaps Sharp, less preferable).
Mitsubishi is little cheaper and fits better in my room (larger picture).

The only direct comparison I found is here. http://www.projectorreviews.com/mitsubishi/hc7800d/image.php But its very difficult to make decision by these images and the reviewer does not say anything specific about how do they compare to each other.

I hope someone who saw them both live will respond.
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post #9 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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One projector that might beat the hd8300 is the Mits hc8000 that is coming out.

I have no doubts HC8000 is awesome, but it is out of my budget sadly.
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post #10 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

I have no doubts HC8000 is awesome, but it is out of my budget sadly.

The hd8300 is better than the hc7800, it has a better IRIS. Many people were upset about the IRIS on the hc7800. The hd8300 also has higher native on/off.
Some people have compared them somewhat relatively speaking somewhere in this forum, but good luck finding it.


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post #11 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Many people were upset about the IRIS on the hc7800.

Exactly the same I read about Optoma.
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The hd8300 also has higher native on/off.

Do you have a link to measurements?
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Some people have compared them somewhat relatively speaking somewhere in this forum, but good luck finding it.

Didn't find anything. Could you please point?
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post #12 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 09:33 AM
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I don't collect all the links or have them on me, but you can see the Optoma review below. They are spread out through this forum, as best I can remember, the hc7800's native on/off was measured 1,500:1 to 1800:1. Optomas was measured at 4500:1 as per the review below. Even if the measurement is inaccurate, every comparison I've seen in the forums has the Optoma hd8300 with the darker blacks over the other 3D DLP's from the past 2 years.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/projectors/projectors-reviews/optoma-hd8300-3d-dlp-projector/all-pages.html

"Contrast performance was at the upper end for DLP projectors in my experience. The DarkChip 3 imager used by Optoma is also used in many other high-end brands. While black levels aren't quite as deep as the latest LCoS units, they rivaled the best I've seen from LED projection which is saying something. Minimum black measured a very low .004 fL. With a peak calibrated output of 18.28 fL, that makes the on/off contrast ratio 4570:1. When the iris was engaged, the black level was unmeasurable. I do recommend using the auto-iris as it does not have a negative impact on accuracy and is not obvious in operation" --- Hometheater HiFi


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post #13 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

I'm sure HD8300 is a great projector itself, but I'm torn between HD8300 and HC7800D (and perhaps Sharp, less preferable).
Mitsubishi is little cheaper and fits better in my room (larger picture).

Do NOT get the 7800

I wanted one too and I was close to pulling the trigger but my radar went off full blast when I saw they were "upgrading" the model just a year after it was released with not just one but two model replacements.

Reading the 7800 thread I realized it was probably because of the seemingly rushed-to-production issues that it has had with some people and which were probably fixed in the last year and are present on the newer models.

This is probably also why there are very few threads on this particular model.

  • Blue ghosting in 3D that can only be fixed with a f/w update that US tech supp doesnt know about and we only know about because a Canadian got Mitsi Canada tech support to do it.
  • IRIS not working and/or not practical to use because it makes little difference and is very noisy
  • Bulkier badly-reviewed proprietary glasses
  • Selling for very cheap now and everyone wants to clean out their inventory of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

I have no doubts HC8000 is awesome, but it is out of my budget sadly.

I know it seems that way now but since you are budget conscious, I can only assume you will be running it for a while which would make the 8000 the ideal choice as that will last you a lot longer.

Remember, you get what you pay for.

In any case, dont read this as a Mitsi or an HC8000 plug but DO read this as a warning about the 7800.
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post #14 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

I have no doubts HC8000 is awesome, but it is out of my budget sadly.

I only checked three major stores [Amazon, VisualApex & Proj People] and I couldnt find anyone selling the HD8300 currently but its MSRP was $4499.99 so how does that make the HC8000 outside your price range when its MSRP is only $3000 and it just came out ??
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post #15 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonf5 View Post

I only checked three major stores [Amazon, VisualApex & Proj People] and I couldnt find anyone selling the HD8300 currently but its MSRP was $4499.99 so how does that make the HC8000 outside your price range when its MSRP is only $3000 and it just came out ??

It's manufacturer refurbished.

HC8000 price sure will drop, but it will be maybe a year later and I need a projector now. I've sold my plasma and can't watch movies for over a month already!
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post #16 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonf5 View Post

Blue ghosting in 3D that can only be fixed with a f/w update that US tech supp doesnt know about and we only know about because a Canadian got Mitsi Canada tech support to do it.

Yes, but people say its not that bad, shows not often, and maybe better 2D picture worth it? After all, 99% movies are in 2D. That's why I'm looking for a direct comparison from first hands.
Quote:
IRIS not working and/or not practical to use because it makes little difference and is very noisy

Yes, but is HD83 iris better? As I said, I've read complaints about Optoma iris too.
Quote:
Bulkier badly-reviewed proprietary glasses

Yes, but it works easilly with Optoma RF glasses. http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Mitsubishi_HC7800/Brillen/HC7800%20Brillen.htm
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post #17 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, that's some impressive review! But I also saw another ones, not so pleasing. Too bad this site doesn't have Mits review.
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post #18 of 30 Old 10-10-2012, 10:45 AM
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The only bad credible review I saw of the Optoma hd8300 was from a guy that had a bad lamp, and he went on and on about the MK2 firmware update. He later changed the review. The hd8300 was reviewed well at most of the review sites and the 3D is better than other projectors, it just isn't as bright in 3D mode as some (when they make DLP's brighter, it reduces contrast, so it's a trade off).


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post #19 of 30 Old 10-19-2012, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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coderguy, 4500:1 is a rather high contrast for an average DLP. The author from hometheaterhifi.com takes contrast meausurements directly from lense, not from screen, thats why he gets such a high value. Most of other reviewers report contrast numbers for HD8300 around 2000:1, which is closer to optoma specification.
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post #20 of 30 Old 10-19-2012, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I've read a lot of reviews and re-read some old ones and some forums.
I can't belive literally NOONE did a job comparing side-by-side these three direct competing models - all DLP, FullHD, 3D, similiary priced. But after reading alot I came to some conclusions.

Well It's not really clear which has higher contrast and blacker blacks, HC7800D or HD8300. I took a closer look at Art HC7800D review

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q1-12/hc7800d_5thelement_starship_large.jpg
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q3-11/hd8300_5thelement_starship_over_large.jpg

hc7800d_5thelement_starship.jpghd8300_5thelement_starship_over.jpg

Both photos have similiar blacks overal, but Optoma (right) is clearly more overexposed, which means in theory Optoma is blacker (?). The same with night train scene:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q1-12/hc7800d_bond_train_large.jpg
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q3-11/hd8300_bond_train_large.jpg


I'm still not sure is this correct. There are some tests reporting better contrast numbers for HC7800D

http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/315-Mitsubishi-HC7800D-5.html 2900 native, 10200 dynamic
http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/307-Optoma-HD83-5.html 2575 native, 8900 dynamic

And I also not sure these numbers are correct, because he measured navite contrast for HD87 lower than HD83 (2444:1), which is doubtful. http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/249-Optoma-HD87-4.html

Also I found some posts at http://cinetson.org and http://www.hifi-forum.de where people said that HC7800D is darker and contrastier.

Then I looked back at XV-Z17000 photo from Art review

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q1-11/XV-Z17000_5thelement_starship_over_large.jpg
XV-Z17000_5thelement_starship_over.jpghd8300_5thelement_starship_over.jpg

Sharp photo is obviously even more overexposed than Optoma (right) and has slightly darker black.

It seems Sharp have blacker blacks than both Optoma and Mitsubishi. Considering that XV-Z17000 has second manual iris for achieving higher contrast, it totally makes sense.
I found a confirmation on soundandvisionmag.com :

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-sharp-xv-z17000-3d-dlp-projector?page=0,2
Quote:
The best black-level/contrast-ratio combination was achieved in Eco+Quiet mode, with High Contrast and Auto On iris settings. In this mode, black level was 0.00086 and max light output was 14.44 (16,790:1).

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-optoma-hd8300-3d-hd-projector?page=0,2
Quote:
If you add in the DynamicBlack auto-iris and use the Cinema 2 setting, black level and light output decrease to 0.0012 ftL and 12.99 ftL, respectively, for a dynamic contrast ratio of 10,825:1.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-mitsubishi-hc7800d-3d-dlp-projector?page=0,2
Quote:
The auto-iris produced the best contrast ratio at the Auto2 setting, reducing black level in Standard lamp mode to 0.0023 while delivering 22.77 maximum light output for a dynamic contrast ratio of 9,900:1

Also there are side-by-side photos in XV-Z17000 avs thread, where Sharp performs (with both irises) equally to Infocus IN82 in space scenes, or even better. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1274146/sharp-xv-z17000-new-dlp-full-hd-3d-projector/200_100#post_20249090


So, now I think Sharp has the best blacks using auto iris and manual iris.
And I would buy XV-Z17000, but the problem is that all reviewers report Sharp auto-iris is unusable, distracting and annoying.
Quote:
When I took those pictures, I liked the added black levels, but when watching "King Arthur" last night, it kept turning down the light in a sudden and very obvious way. It's imposible to not notice the iris suddenly going from fully open to closed, during a close up of two persons talking. Eventually I just turned it off, it was way too distracting.

It has only one setting - just "on" or "off". And without dynamic iris Sharp is not better than the others.

So what I've decided. I will not take Sharp or HC7800D.

The new Mitsubishi HC8000D-BL is very tempting because it also uses additional manual iris and should be definetelly better than HD8300 in 2D. I don't know the price (should be less than $3000), and don't know when it will start shipping, maybe next week, maybe in two months.
So I'll wait some time.
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post #21 of 30 Old 10-19-2012, 09:11 AM
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I agree to look at the Mits hc8000, but I am not sure if it will be better than the hd8300 (could be). The 8300 was a PJ retailing in the mid 3k range initially, it actually has a pretty strong optical coating on the lens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

coderguy, 4500:1 is a rather high contrast for an average DLP. The author from hometheaterhifi.com takes contrast meausurements directly from lense, not from screen, thats why he gets such a high value. Most of other reviewers report contrast numbers for HD8300 around 2000:1, which is closer to optoma specification.

The different reviewers use different methods, some better than others. When I take measurements, I use three separate measurements over at least two separate methods, and I take the average once I can get the measurements to come in close (if they are all too far off, then I question the angle or placement I took the measurement from). This last way is the way I wish most reviewers did it.


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post #22 of 30 Old 10-19-2012, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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The 8300 was a PJ retailing in the mid 3k range initially, it actually has a pretty strong optical coating on the lens.

It's also quite bright according to both PC and PR reviews, which is good for 3D, but not so good for 2D. I mean, darker pj's tend to be contrastier, among DLP's at least.
Additonal iris would help, but there is still no HD87 with 3D.
Quote:
The different reviewers use different methods

Yes. And my point is: If hometheaterhifi.com would have tested HC7800D, the results most likely wouldn't be dramatically different from its HD8300 measurements.

To me it looks like 7800 and HD83 are somewhat close, maybe one is better, but not much. And 7800 plus manual iris should be a killer.
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post #23 of 30 Old 10-19-2012, 09:51 AM
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Ilya,

All true, you have made good observations on this, especially noting that brighter DLP's usually have less contrast (often true for sure).
I will add a couple additional observations from stuff I picked up from users comparing it in the forums and what not. Also, the hd8200 has quite a few comparisons, so you can go by some of those in the forums as well if you want to start thread searching.

Optoma hd8300 isn't all that bright if you compare it to most other DLP projectors brightest modes, especially 3D projectors. The hd8300 has fairly accurate calibration tables and a very tight range between its calibrated best mode and its brightest mode (relatively speaking), that means that although the hd8300's best modes are really bright, if you judge a projector by max lumens relative to other similar DLP projectors with the same lamp and of the same brand (but not the same model), then this is often a partial indicator of how deep the lens and mirrors are coated. The hd8300 actually has one of the least bright "brightests modes" of the similar DLP's in its price range with similar lamps. I think the hd8300 has better coatings than most DLP's, so I still don't think you will beat the On/Off of the hd8300 except for the Mits hc8000 (as far as recent 3d projectors). We don't know yet if the hc8000 can beat it overall though (or if hc8000 really beats it even in On/Off), too early to tell, maybe so (I hope). The hd8300 is VERY strong on calibration and post-calibration, it produces a very clean calibrated image (no posterization worries), and some features are more useable than on some projectors.

Also, if you look back through the forums, the hc7800 has some issues (like unusable IRIS, which presumably are all fixed on the 8000).
The Optoma hd8300's IRIS was not perfect, but it certainly was better than some DLP's that had bad IRIS's (like the hc7800).

Finally, if you look at the people who compared the hd8300's black levels in the Forum, the hd8300 easily beats those other DLP's at blacks.
There was another post in another forum (dont have it on me atm, but it's around if you google), where someone said the hd8300 and Panny 7000 were neck and neck in blacks, except IRIS on Panny was smoother (but only in Rec709 mode).


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Optoma hd8300 isn't all that bright if you compare it to say some DLP projectors though, especially 3D.

Yes, you are right. What I meant - it is bright compared to Mitsubishi.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/mitsubishi/hc7800d/performance.php
Quote:
Cinema = 496 @ 7291
Video = 496 @ 6928
3D = 866 @ 7587
A/V Memory 1, 2 or 3 = 670 @ 6585

http://www.projectorcentral.com/mitsubishi_hc7800d_full_hd_3d_projector_review.htm?page=Performance
Quote:
The HC7800D has only three factory presets, called 3D, Cinema, and Video. All three measure between 600 and 800 lumens. These presets are locked, so you cannot make adjustments. However, the projector also has three AV Memory settings, which you can use to store your favorite combinations of settings.
This mode measured 609 lumens with the lamp at Standard power and 440 lumens in Low power, a 27% reduction.

As you can see, HD83 modes are brighter, and whats more important, there's no way to reduce it:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/hd8300/performance.php
Quote:
Cinema = 843 @ 7002
Reference= 860 @ 7020
Photo= 833 @ 8108
Bright= 826 @ 8508 (Using Native color temp increases lumens to 992)
User= 753 @ 6960

http://www.projectorcentral.com/optoma_hd8300_3D_home_theater_projector_review.htm?page=Performance
Quote:
In addition to Cinema, available modes include Reference (761 lumens), Photo (896 lumens), 3D (704 lumens), and Bright (872 lumens). All of these modes were measured using the lamp's Standard setting and the widest angle available on the projector's 1.5:1 zoom lens. What's missing from the HD8300 is a preset image mode that produces between 400 and 600 lumens, which would be useful for owners of small screens or folks with excellent ambient light control in their theaters.
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Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

Yes, you are right. What I meant - it is bright compared to Mitsubishi.

True, but Mits is a little brighter in its brightest mode:
"HC7800D: Color Temp = High Brightness: 1299 lumens" --- Art

You might need an ND filter for the hd8300 for 2D since there aren't too many modes that are much less bright, but I think the 8300 still has better contrast than the hc7800 (even native on/off if not counting IRIS's). However, keep in mind that the hd8300 is possibly the most accurate pre-calibrated image of any DLP near its price range (as far as how much it needs calibrated which is miniscule), that is why the range in the lamp is so small for the different modes, that is probably more of a benefit overall than a negator even if you might need an ND filter at first (shouldn't need one all that long).


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True, but Mits is brighter in its brightest mode:
"HC7800D: Color Temp = High Brightness: 1299 lumens" --- Art

Ok, one more correction: smile.gif The darkest mode of Optoma is brighter than darkest mode of Mitsubishi.
Yep, ND filter is a possible option, but it's not as good as an additional iris, as it does not help contrast.

I've ruled HC7800 out already, I'm now waiting for HC8000D, more detailed reviews, price, shipping start date, etc. If it will be too long, I'll get HD8300.
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Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

Ok, one more correction: smile.gif The darkest mode of Optoma is brighter than darkest mode of Mitsubishi.

Yah for sure. I'm rooting for the hc8000 to be better, I love how the Mits projectors handle motion, but the hc8000 might be too expensive for me until I wait for a price drop. Sure I can afford it without the price drop, but I like to maximize my dollar. I will have Mits hc8000 price from AVS once Mike gets the price in hand.

I two am heavily considering one of these two projectors as an addition to my JVC.


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I will have Mits hc8000 price from AVS once Mike gets the price in hand.

Thats a great news, do you have any idea when it will be available?
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Not yet, I haven't checked for price but he'll let me know. You can email him (Mike@avscience.com)


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