Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 100 - AVS Forum
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post #2971 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

The differences in the lumen output that people are seeing compared to Art has to do with a lot of factors, but the main ones are:

1- How far away the projector is mounted, and how it's mounted

2- The size of the screen it's projecting

3- The gain of the screen

Everyone has a different setup so that's why you see the difference in lumens on the same pj.

You have to compare the numbers based on the environment. If zombie sets up 3 pj's the exact same way and all things are equal and he gives you numbers for each, then you can make a determination based on his results. You can't necessarily use his results for one pj and compare it to someone else's results for a second pj though. Not without taking other factors into consideration.

How do 2) and 3) come into play when quoting lumens?

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #2972 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

How do 2) and 3) come into play when quoting lumens?


Same screen size and gain, but one is mounted farther away than the other: the one mounted closer will produce higher lumens.

Same screen size and mounted exactly the same (distance and position) but one has 1.0 gain and the other has 1.5 gain: The one with 1.5 gain will produce higher lumens.

PJs mounted exactly the same and the gain on both screens is the same but one screen is 100" and the other is 150": The screen that is 100" will produce higher lumens.

Just use a projector calculator and pick a projector and change screen size values, mount distance values, and gain values and you will see the increase or decrease in light output.

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post #2973 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The most surreal 3D I've seen (as far as immersion) is still in the game X3: Albion Prelude (same as Terran Conflict).


Don't get me wrong, it's not necessarily the best 3D experience overall (just a game after all), but it makes it feel like you are floating in space and I'm still looking for other 3D stuff (games or movies) with this same level of immersion. The Benq is definitely missing some contrast for this game, but at least it's playable and easier on the eyes than the JVC was in 3D.

Although I still don't find 3D as easy on the eyes as 2D, but the Benq makes it bareable.


Is there any word on a successor to the w7000?

With all the strong points of this projector, a successor, with dark chip 3 to improve black levels and contrast, and maybe even higher lumens, and, based on the w1070 anyway, longer lasting lamp life, would make this a serious contender for a single projector choice for me.

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post #2974 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

Same screen size and gain, but one is mounted farther away than the other: the one mounted closer will produce higher lumens.

Same screen size and mounted exactly the same (distance and position) but one has 1.0 gain and the other has 1.5 gain: The one with 1.5 gain will produce higher lumens.

PJs mounted exactly the same and the gain on both screens is the same but one screen is 100" and the other is 150": The screen that is 100" will produce higher lumens.

Just use a projector calculator and pick a projector and change screen size values, mount distance values, and gain values and you will see the increase or decrease in light output.

I thought that was ftL that changed according to the eqn: ftL = lumens*screenGain/screenSurfaceArea... I agree that the lumens will change based on projector throw, but I was under the impression that lumens (if measured properly) were not a function of the screen gain (or size, except as it relates to throw distance & zoom)??? Any of the calibrators want to chime in with the correct terms here (i.e. luminance, illuminance or whatever)?

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #2975 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

Is there any word on a successor to the w7000?

With all the strong points of this projector, a successor, with dark chip 3 to improve black levels and contrast, and maybe even higher lumens, and, based on the w1070 anyway, longer lasting lamp life, would make this a serious contender for a single projector choice for me.
That's what I'm hoping for, DC3, longer lamp life, brighter 3D, and same placement of course. I am still thinking about getting the 1070 but won't be purchasing one until it drops to $850 or lower. I would pay $2K for a new improved W7000
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post #2976 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:22 AM
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We are talking about lumens from the projector, so screen size and gain are irrelevant.
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post #2977 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

That's what I'm hoping for, DC3, longer lamp life, brighter 3D, and same placement of course. I am still thinking about getting the 1070 but won't be purchasing one until it drops to $850 or lower. I would pay $2K for a new improved W7000


Same here! Personally, I would also like to see a more stable motorized lens (I know this will up the price a bit though so most probably wont want this). If not fully motorized, at least the shift portion. I would also like to see a more normal and user friendly manual iris to tailor the brightness to our needs/setup for 2d in particular. I know there is a way to do this in the service menu, but it is not user friendly for the average person (contrary to JVCs system for example where you can do this right from a button on the remote!) which makes it feel like a hassle.

Oh, and one other thing. Get the sync issue ironed out. It is actually pretty annoying dealing with the glasses sync issue on this machine. Commonly if I turn my head, the damn glasses go out of sync. rolleyes.gif The TrueDepth are better vs the ZD201s, but both have annoying issues as far as this goes vs other 3d setups I have experienced.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #2978 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:30 AM
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The problem with DLP (at least according to the TI tech docs) is that placement flexibility is somewhat at odds with native contrast ratio... brightness and contrast ratio are a tradeoff in the design of the PJ. A large offset seems to be the design of choice for maximizing contrast ratio (at the expense of brightness). Look at the DLPs that have good native contrast lately (HC4000, W1070)... they have placement above/below the screen. Now compare that to the native CR of those that have center placement flexibility: W7000 (DC2, <1000:1), xv-z30000 (DC3, <2000:1), and even the runco LS-5 (???, ~2500:1). While it would be great to have a center-placement DC3 DLP with >4000:1 contrast, I'm not sure it's possible. Having said that, a good DC3 implementation in a W7000 successor could at least get the contrast near 2k:1, but would likely cost it some brightness. Except for FI, the XV-30000 may be what a W7000 with DC3 and good contrast would look like???

My ideal W7000 successor would have offset for better CR, long throw to minimize the angle (and maximize HP gain in an offset config), and would add triple flash for 3D.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #2979 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:38 AM
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We don't know the contrast ratio of the w1070. Krane's measurments are not accurate. He measured the Benq w1100 at 3000:1 and it's nowhere near that high. I am not blaming him as it might just be his meter or method, but I've not seen his numbers be agreeable to anyone else using higher-end equipment. He also measured the w7000 at over 2000:1, and again, not that high.

He is the only one that posted measurements for the w1070, I am betting contrast is still below 3000:1 and probably 1500:1 to 2000:1, maybe 2500:1 with some luck. It is unlikely the w1070 has contrast higher or equal to a MIts hc4000 given the variances in their light design, the fact the w1070 has lens shift, and because the 1070 is so much brighter even if taking into account the wattage difference.


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post #2980 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

We don't know the contrast ratio of the w1070. Krane's measurments are not accurate. He measured the Benq w1100 at 3000:1 and it's nowhere near that high. I am not blaming him as it might just be his meter or method, but I've not seen his numbers be agreeable to anyone else using higher-end equipment. He also measured the w7000 at over 2000:1, and again, not that high.

He is the only one that posted measurements for the w1070, I am betting contrast is still below 3000:1 and probably 1500:1 to 2000:1, maybe 2500:1 with some luck. It is unlikely the w1070 has contrast higher or equal to a MIts hc4000 given the variances in their light design, the fact the w1070 has lens shift, and because the 1070 is so much brighter even if taking into account the wattage difference.

Agreed, one can hope though wink.gif The w1070 should have significantly higher CR than the w7000 though, and likely not only from the DC3.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #2981 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B View Post

We are talking about lumens from the projector, so screen size and gain are irrelevant.

Maybe my understanding is off.

How do you measure lumens from the projector? Isn't it done with a meter pointed at the screen?

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post #2982 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 09:52 AM
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I am liking the Benq w7000 a lot more than I thought I would despite the low native on/off. The fact you can force the IRIS as a manual IRIS means you can get the white and black level pretty close to exactly perfect for a room. It even closes down more than the JVC, so this projector will NEVER be too bright, even if someone is using it on a 60" tiny screen.

The Benq appears to have a different intrascene ramp slightly than other cheaper projectors I've used, I think the low on/off might be being fudged by the IRIS settings (if DI = disabled, its IRIS does not affect on/off but there might be some bug in the SM that does, it almost appears that way to me, but right now my findings are not conclusive), I will be messing around to see if I can get a higher reading after some SM fiddling.

The Benq definitely has an advantage over my RS-45 in clean sources with bright scenes, there is no doubt the lesser pixel fill and DLP processing is helping in bright scenes on anything that is non-film related. I need to get some 70mm transfers from bluray (the ones Zombie posted) to do some A/B to see if this is a different result than my Tree of Life A/B.

After having used the Benq on TV and streaming all weekend, I definitely noticed it seemed to be a step up in POP from the JVC, that said I need to A/B more. Zombie is careful about spending 10+ hours or more before he posts his results, I am not, but it is because I wasn't doing a real formal review like he was. I still don't think I would probably spend a bunch more on the Benq over a cheaper DLP just for general viewing, but it might be worth it with the IRIS allowing perfection adjustment to the room.


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post #2983 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I am liking the Benq w7000 a lot more than I thought I would despite the low native on/off. The fact you can force the IRIS as a manual IRIS means you can get the white and black level pretty close to exactly perfect for a room. It even closes down more than the JVC, so this projector will NEVER be too bright, even if someone is using it on a 60" tiny screen.

The Benq appears to have a different intrascene ramp slightly than other cheaper projectors I've used, I think the low on/off might be being fudged by the IRIS settings (if DI = disabled, its IRIS does not affect on/off but there might be some bug in the SM that does, it almost appears that way to me, but right now my findings are not conclusive), I will be messing around to see if I can get a higher reading after some SM fiddling.

The Benq definitely has an advantage over my RS-45 in clean sources with bright scenes, there is no doubt the lesser pixel fill and DLP processing is helping in bright scenes on anything that is non-film related. I need to get some 70mm transfers from bluray (the ones Zombie posted) to do some A/B to see if this is a different result than my Tree of Life A/B.

After having used the Benq on TV and streaming all weekend, I definitely noticed it seemed to be a step up in POP from the JVC, that said I need to A/B more. Zombie is careful about spending 10+ hours or more before he posts his results, I am not, but it is because I wasn't doing a real formal review like he was. I still don't think I would probably spend a bunch more on the Benq over a cheaper DLP just for general viewing, but it might be worth it with the IRIS allowing perfection adjustment to the room.


You keep the iris in one position? You never use dynamic iris? If you ever have used DI, do you find it to be as loud as some have said? I always hear that DLP irises are louder than irises of other PJ tech.

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post #2984 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

It depends on whether the contrast/HDMI setting is set to clip at 235, 245 or 255. There is quite a difference if using a 100% pattern and comparing the three settings. Plus tolerances on meters too of course.

I take a 100 IRE and Higher the contrast till 1 of each R, G or B is getting behind on the RGB Balnce Chart.
Than I go back till they are strait again.
This way you'll get the highest out of the projector with still a balanced greyscale.
At the end of the calibration I'll always check this again.

Did Art leave the HW50 on High Lamp Mode?
Zombie, did you leave the HW50 on High Lamp Mode?
The HW50 is still very quiet on high mode, but I choose Low, for extra Bulb life, since it is bright enough on our 120" 1.0 gain Matwhite screen.
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post #2985 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

Maybe my understanding is off.

How do you measure lumens from the projector? Isn't it done with a meter pointed at the screen?

lumens are measured at the center of the screen, with the meter facing the projector. This way the info stays objective and doesn't take into account screen gain. throw distance should be noted for reference.

All my measurements (2D and 3D) are from 17 ft from a 142" 16:9 with the exception of the HC8000 which was 14 feet @ 133" image due to the limited way I could mount this projector in my setup.
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post #2986 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post


Zombie, did you leave the HW50 on High Lamp Mode?
The HW50 is still very quiet on high mode, but I choose Low, for extra Bulb life, since it is bright enough on our 120" 1.0 gain Matwhite screen.

I am a brightness fanatic so I leave all my projectors on high and adjust the iris if needed on the JVC or 'auto-limited' on the Sony to bring down the peak brightness on my HP screen.

The HW50 is by far the quietest projector in high lamp that i've seen this year.

Did you calibrate in 3D yet behind the glasses? It responds very well and color in 3D looks great.
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post #2987 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 10:29 AM
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How is the brightness of the RS56 compared to the 55? Quite a bit better? I understand the 55 is relatively low so getting any decent size screen is difficult to push.
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post #2988 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

lumens are measured at the center of the screen, with the meter facing the projector. This way the info stays objective and doesn't take into account screen gain. throw distance should be noted for reference.

All my measurements (2D and 3D) are from 17 ft from a 142" 16:9 with the exception of the HC8000 which was 14 feet @ 133" image due to the limited way I could mount this projector in my setup.


Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the info.

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post #2989 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jhors2 View Post

How is the brightness of the RS56 compared to the 55? Quite a bit better? I understand the 55 is relatively low so getting any decent size screen is difficult to push.

you might be mistaking the RS50 for the RS55? The RS55 and RS56 should be very close in brightness. I had the 4810 and the RS55 next to each other, they appear about same output if we saw them in an A/B config.

The RS50 was one of the dimmest JVC's since the RS2.

Acceptable brightness is a subjective topic. Some are ok with large, low gains screens, others like the High Power for intense brightness, etc. I use a 142" 16:9 with the old 2.8 material in my newly blacked out room. I still run high lamp with my projectors since I like a bright image on a nice sized screen.
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post #2990 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthieu View Post

I take a 100 IRE and Higher the contrast till 1 of each R, G or B is getting behind on the RGB Balnce Chart.
Than I go back till they are strait again.
This way you'll get the highest out of the projector with still a balanced greyscale.
At the end of the calibration I'll always check this again.

Did Art leave the HW50 on High Lamp Mode?
Zombie, did you leave the HW50 on High Lamp Mode?
The HW50 is still very quiet on high mode, but I choose Low, for extra Bulb life, since it is bright enough on our 120" 1.0 gain Matwhite screen.

I measure with my whitebalance calibrated too, but my comments previously were just that there are variables as to how different people do the peak measurement:

Clipping at 235, 245 or 255
Whether the 100% whitebalance is calibrated or not.

These factors alone could give a number of different results even using the same projector, let alone different users and different meters. Comparative measurements like Zombie does are at least a good guide as to which one is brightest, but comparing Zombie's readings against others could skew the results.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #2991 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^ good point, not to mention some reviewers have demo projectors with various hours on the lamp, furthering skewing comparisons. luckily all the projectors I've seen so far were 0 hour units to compare against 1 another.
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post #2992 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I am a brightness fanatic so I leave all my projectors on high and adjust the iris if needed on the JVC or 'auto-limited' on the Sony to bring down the peak brightness on my HP screen.

The HW50 is by far the quietest projector in high lamp that i've seen this year.

Did you calibrate in 3D yet behind the glasses? It responds very well and color in 3D looks great.

I was planning on doing that tomorrow.
Nice to see your possitivity on that.
I can hardly wait.

High lamp and Iris limited, was my intention, but after seeing I could get 18.60fL on my 120" screen in Low-Mode, I thought maybe this way I can enjoy 800 hours extra with the this same lamp.
Well, I don't have an 142" screen of course. (Read Jealous) wink.gif
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post #2993 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 05:28 PM
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Just a quick note that I originally posted having issues with my internal 3D emitter that seemed to be a hardware issue. AVS had Sony send me an external emitter free of charge and this seems to have resolved my issues. I don't think the issue was a room or setup issue as placing the projector in such a way that the internal emitter was at the same height as my JVC emitter was did not resolve my issue. The Xpand glasses would not even attempt to sync unless I looked directly at the internal emitter. Once I installed the external emitter in the same location that the JVC emitter was (perhaps slightly higher) the sync problems have seemed to have gone away. Only watched one 3D movie so far and a slight bit of testing but both the Sony and Xpands seem to work fine now.
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post #2994 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 05:39 PM
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Does anyone in here know how the RS35 would compare to the RS46?

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post #2995 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 06:04 PM
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it's going to crush it in contrast performance and it should look noticeably sharper due to better convergence and better optics/optical block. The RS35 was built with hand picked parts and put together with a lot more quality control. It doesn't do 3D though, that's one drawback and it won't be quite as bright.
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post #2996 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 06:15 PM
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So going from an RS2 to an RS35 would be a noticeable upgrade in your opinion?

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post #2997 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 06:22 PM
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Yes, it should be a noticeable improvement over the RS2. It should be quite a bit brighter, sharper, have better color when calibrated, and have some new software features like CFI for example.
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post #2998 of 9516 Old 01-14-2013, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post

You keep the iris in one position? You never use dynamic iris? If you ever have used DI, do you find it to be as loud as some have said? I always hear that DLP irises are louder than irises of other PJ tech.

Yes, I use the Benq IRIS like a manual IRIS, but I change the position for 3D to a brighter fixed position.

I was lucky in that my DI is not loud. Sitting 7 feet from the projector, I can hear it a tiny bit in a very quiet scene, but usually I don't hear it. I have the DI turned off right now though, only because to get the manual IRIS mode working in the SM, you have to. Otherwise I would have left it on. If I were sitting 4 feet or closer (especially 2 feet), it would be slightly bothersome and more annoying.

That said, I do have one issue I have now noticed with my refurb, and that is that I have some MILD lamp pulsing. I may have to send in for a lamp exchange, but I'm not 100% sure if I'm seeing the color wheel pulse or the lamp (not RBE though, it's just a non-colored pulse that looks like lamp but there is a shade to it). It's not bad and isn't really noticeable in viewing, but I can notice it at certain rare times. If I knew it wasn't going to get any worse, I would leave it as-is, but I would like to try a lamp exchange depending on how hard/easy Benq CS is to deal with. I have tried the running it on high trick, but didn't seem to make much difference, my biggest fear is that it might be the Color Wheel and not the lamp.


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post #2999 of 9516 Old 01-15-2013, 01:59 AM
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I remember asking this before, I think on this thread, so I figure I'd answer it here (though it'll probably get drowned in all the other discussion!):

I always wondered why contrast ratios appear to increase as the iris is stopped down. I believe it's as simple as: when stopping down, you're using less of the outer portions of the lens surfaces. That means you're using more of its center, which is usually optically best. That center of the lens is not just better in resolution than the outer edges, but also better in contrast (the two are inherently related, but I digress).

So for the same reason I see focus uniformity increase as I clamp the iris on my HW50, I'd expect the contrast ratio to increase. In photography, we see this as increase in MTF when stopping down.
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post #3000 of 9516 Old 01-15-2013, 06:18 AM
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My Sony50es should be here today. i want to leave my sony90es up to see the 2d comparison between the two. what is a good recommended height for the 50es if i place on a stand, screen is 100", projector will be on a stand about 15' back from screen, ceiling height is 8' - the stand will be temporary for now to do the comparison.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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