Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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post #3061 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Hi,

It's been a while I did not post in this thread. smile.gif I am still happy with my Sony HW50. It is a great projector but I miss my VW95 for the quality of his lens and motorize zoom and focus compare to the HW50. I think I may buy a refurb one when AVS will have some in stock. The best option for me will be the upgrade model from the VW95... But It look like it wont be until the end of the year. As for the better 3D in the HW50, it's the only thing that make me keep the projector since the 3D is very good on it. For the RC, in the beginning I was impress by the RC and after a while I found myself distract by how the RC modify the image. I then turn the RC down, and down, and down, and finally off biggrin.gif Now I only use the RC for 3D.

One upgrade that I like the most is my new Lumagen Radiance XS-3D. "Influence" by Zombie post in this thread I decide to buy one and try the Chromapure 125 pt auto calibration. The result is awesome ! In less than one hour, the XS and Chromapure do all the work and give you a near perfect calibration. I know I have all the control on the HW50 to do a separate calibration but in the end it's more complicated and time consuming. Also the Lumagen have all kind of options to help you with your image. For exemple, I copy my calibration setting to another memory and from there modify couple of things to make the image better suit for sport viewing. There so many things that can be done with that machine, I am still experiencing...

That's it for now, I will continue to read this thread, it's one of the best around here... Keep the good work.

can you please tell us whats the problem with RC? thank you
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post #3062 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Hi,

It's been a while I did not post in this thread. smile.gif I am still happy with my Sony HW50. It is a great projector but I miss my VW95 for the quality of his lens and motorize zoom and focus compare to the HW50. I think I may buy a refurb one when AVS will have some in stock. The best option for me will be the upgrade model from the VW95... But It look like it wont be until the end of the year. As for the better 3D in the HW50, it's the only thing that make me keep the projector since the 3D is very good on it. For the RC, in the beginning I was impress by the RC and after a while I found myself distract by how the RC modify the image. I then turn the RC down, and down, and down, and finally off biggrin.gif Now I only use the RC for 3D.

One upgrade that I like the most is my new Lumagen Radiance XS-3D. "Influence" by Zombie post in this thread I decide to buy one and try the Chromapure 125 pt auto calibration. The result is awesome ! In less than one hour, the XS and Chromapure do all the work and give you a near perfect calibration. I know I have all the control on the HW50 to do a separate calibration but in the end it's more complicated and time consuming. Also the Lumagen have all kind of options to help you with your image. For exemple, I copy my calibration setting to another memory and from there modify couple of things to make the image better suit for sport viewing. There so many things that can be done with that machine, I am still experiencing...

That's it for now, I will continue to read this thread, it's one of the best around here... Keep the good work.

can you please tell us whats the problem with RC? thank you

No problem at all, it is just personal preference... When RC is engage, on some movies, the face of the actors look a bit not natural (too much detail/noise). That effect seem more pronounce in low quality blu ray. On high quality / new release like Avengers the effect is less visible and more appreciated. Since I watch at lot of "classic" blu ray. I prefer to keep the RC off
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post #3063 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Cool, as you can see I am very interested to hear your results and if you think the cost is worth it. I'm sure over time it is easily worth it but in my post above the cost of recalibrating meter down the road is a turn off for me.

Thanks,
Mike

I kept making rookie mistakes last night, but I should be able to give you my humble impressions tonight or tom after I run the calibration again. First mistake I made was calibrating the white point at 100% instead of 80%.

EDIT: Nevermind............Guess I should be using the 100% pattern after reading Marks post over again (and Kelvins).......
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Toe. What that means is to put a 100 IRE screen or window up and use the RGB gain controls in the projector (there are two sliders in the projector menu for each color, use the second one for each which sets the high end or gain). Some use a 80% pattern when they don't have a Lumagen for multipoint gray scale (which is not the same as CMS 7 point or 125 point which are of course not used for color temperature) and then they use say a low end at 20%. The idea is to get a straight line for color temperature across the entire gray scale 0 to 100) and the more points the straighter the line will be. The line should be at 6500K. But since you will be using a multipoint color temp or gray scale calibration instead of two point, use the projector gain (and not the cut) internal RGB controls to set the color temp at 6500K at 100%. The Lumagen/Chromapure will do the rest after of course you self set contrast and brightness and also, which Kelvin left out, sharpness on the projector controls. Sharpness should be set to none which may not be the same as 0 on the slider. You put up a line pattern and turn the control so you just stop any halo which is the artifact of ringing. Turn it up and then back down so any ringing is gone.

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post #3064 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post


No problem at all, it is just personal preference... When RC is engage, on some movies, the face of the actors look a bit not natural (too much detail/noise). That effect seem more pronounce in low quality blu ray. On high quality / new release like Avengers the effect is less visible and more appreciated. Since I watch at lot of "classic" blu ray. I prefer to keep the RC off

 

I noticed this as well until I put my Darbee in the chain (separate issue relating to a shorter 3' v1.3 HDMI cable between Onkyo DHC-80.3 and Darbee with a 60' Redmere cable between Darbee and HW50 that was preventing the Darbee from working 100% even with just 2D content but this was solved with a 6' Redmere between 80.3 and Darbee).  I find that RC on 10 and the Darbee in HiDef at 30-40% is very good for the majority of my content (DirecTV incl sports, 720p MKV's, 1080p MKV's as well as full BD's).  I was skeptical of the Darbee since the Sony has RC but find they complement each other well.

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post #3065 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I'm aware of what the issue is. My point was that unless convergence of all three panels is good, making adjustments to them is going to be a pain when swapping the anamorphic lens in and out of the light path. You'd have to find a middle point (ie decent looking convergence with and without the extra lens) otherwise you'd be setting the convergence again and again every time the anamorphic lens is in front of the primary lens and the taken away to watch non anamorphic content.

So you would be taking a decent Eshift projector and making the convergence look worse for 16:9 non lens content and it still wouldn't be properly converged with the lens in place either. I'm not sure there would be a decent looking middle point unless you aren't that bothered about picture sharpness/resolution, but that seems to go against the reasons for buying an Eshift model in the first place.

IMVHO a lens should try to pass the image with as little degradation as is possible to give the best image fidelity. To then accept a lens that has chromic aberration by default and then try to correct it electronically just seems wrong to me. One of the reasons I like using a lens is that I find in my set up it actually looked sharper than when zooming (at least with my older HD350, haven't tried zooming the X35 to be fair), so why would I want to risk harming that sharpness by using a sub par lens? While I already have a lens, I wouldn't be averse to buying another one because my Isco II isn't a true CIH lens since it produces a slight (5% or so) magnification in the image height, so if using a lens sled, the 'without lens' image ends up with not enough image height unless I rezoom. If I genuinely thought that I could replace my Isco II with a new lens that could do this and still provide the same sharpness I'd be on it like a shot. I don't think I'll be rushing out for one of these lenses though (especially as I haven't got zonal pixel adjustment, but even if I did).

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #3066 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 09:27 AM
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Not everyone has that much money to spend on an anamorphic lens. I'm in agreement with you. I wouldn't want a lens that degrades the picture a decent amount. But that's besides the point I'm trying to make. Like I said, it's either fix the convergence so it looks good without the lens, fix the convergence so it looks good with the lens in place, or try to find a middle ground (if possible).

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post #3067 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 09:40 AM
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I think it sounds like we agree, but IMHO if you buy an X55/RS48 or above with Eshift, then it's questionable as to whether a lens will add very much to the overall image. I know that some hail brightness as the main reason, but in my set up there is hardly any difference in light output zooming verses using a lens. This is because I'm at the end stops on the zoom when using the lens, so least light output. I believe that the transition isn't linear in terms of lens aperture so there might be quite a change in brightness over that first bit of zoom when zooming ( going from x1.0 to x1.33). Of course each set up is different, but if anyone finds that they are at or very near to minimum zoom for 16:9 content, then they might get similar results to me. I know there are other pros to using a lens, such as pixel density and lack of black bars, but what use is higher pixel density if the lens is degrading the image significantly enough to have to mess with the convergence?

So for me this lens is a bit of an enigma: You need a JVC with zonal convergence, so it has to be an RS48 or above, but in doing this you automatically have a projector with Eshft which gives you increased (upscaled) pixel density over a 1080p model anyway. In fact one of my choices when upgrading recently was whether to sell the Isco and get the X55 instead and go back to zooming. It was only that I already have the Lumagen for CMS (and a Darbee) and that the X55 has no more contrast than the X35 that just made it hard to justify the doubling of cost (less the lens sale of course). Equally someone with an X55 that is considering this lens, I would suggest that they would be better off just getting the X75 instead and enjoying extra contrast.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #3068 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 09:46 AM
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soupdragon, - I hadn't mentioned it prior to now, but on a black feild image, the X90 displays brighter corners than the X70

So in summary, ...

My first 4810 had very bright corners, I noticed when I changed the gamma to 2.3 the corners were way more noticable.

I wonder if the 90 seemed to have brighter corners on the black field image because the contrast/black floor level on the 90 is lower than the 70?
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post #3069 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I know that some hail brightness as the main reason, but in my set up there is hardly any difference in light

They would increase brightness more just by buying a bunch of extra lamps and changing the lamp often, rather than an a-lens.


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post #3070 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 10:07 AM
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Hi. I recently purchased a new (older) home and I finally have the opportunity to set up a good home theater-like experience in a room in the basement. My intent is not to go full "bat cave" as it doubles as a kids play room and I'd like something a bit more social (for sports and the like too). The walls/ceiling are off-white although the floor is relatively dark grey color. Relatively little natural light (small window well window) and I had 4 rows of recessed lighting installed in several dimmers so I can turn the ones nearest the screen off easily (ceilings are bit less than 9ft).

I ordered a 120" DNP SuperNova (0.8 gain) and a BenQ W7000 (which should actually be arriving today from Amazon). That said, I am questioning whether the W7000 is optimal (I don't mind spending a bit more money) for my goals and setup. I'd like something with a compelling movie/television viewing experience at night (don't necessarily care about pure reference level stuff for its own sake) with the way lights down or even off, but I'd really like to have the ability to let the kids watch their stuff on their with the lights on or watch football and the like with a reasonable amount of light (e.g., during the rear lighting on to keep direct light off the screen as much as possible). [Hence the purchase of the DNP screen].

According to the reviews I've seen the BenQ offers a substantially brighter calibrated image than the others I was previously considering so it seems like I should have plenty of lumens on screen for my setup. That said, I think I might prefer better contrast and black levels (without having tried it yet). I was previously considering the Epson 5020 and Panasonic AE8000 but their relative lack of calibrated brightness made me consider the BenQ. However, it seems like in their brighter modes I can get pretty close to the BenQ... I just don't know how those brighter uncalibrated images look for viewing under ambient light. 3D is a plus for me, but probably not a must have.

I'm willing to spend significantly money to get a better picture but I suspect I don't want to compromise on brightness too much. Placement wise I'm pretty flexible (ceiling mount), although I have power and wiring at about 15' already (the DNP requires a min of about 13'). Primary seating will be at about 13-15 ft, in case it matters.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks,
Pete

P.S., I purchased a ND filter to go with the projector (1 fstop)... I guess that should help with the black levels for more of a movie viewing experience.

I'm also attaching some photos to give you some sense of what I'm dealing with lightwise. I realize I'll probably want to get a blind for that window nearest the screen ... and pardon the clutter :-)


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post #3071 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Better that the D3 can be recalibrated as the LT just drifts and drifts and drifts. My i1LT measures a dE of 12 compared to <1dE on the same test pattern using my new D3.In other words it is useless (except maybe for adjusting gamma I suppose).

Thanks Kelvin,

Since my LT is 1 1/2 years old I won't even bother trying to redo grayscale with it and will just wait to get the Chromapure advanced auto-cal bundle with the D3.

Thanks again,
Mike

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post #3072 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

soupdragon, - I hadn't mentioned it prior to now, but on a black feild image, the X90 displays brighter corners than the X70

So in summary, ...

My first 4810 had very bright corners, I noticed when I changed the gamma to 2.3 the corners were way more noticable.

I wonder if the 90 seemed to have brighter corners on the black field image because the contrast/black floor level on the 90 is lower than the 70?
After a JVC imaging engineer explained the cause of bright corners to me, it seems that their presence and intensity is going to vary from projector to projector. Since the 90 is the TOTL model with hand-picked components, iit should have a lower incidence of bright corners IMHO.
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post #3073 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

soupdragon, - I hadn't mentioned it prior to now, but on a black feild image, the X90 displays brighter corners than the X70

So in summary, ...

My first 4810 had very bright corners, I noticed when I changed the gamma to 2.3 the corners were way more noticable.

I wonder if the 90 seemed to have brighter corners on the black field image because the contrast/black floor level on the 90 is lower than the 70?

That's really sad to hear "bright corners" are still popping up in random fashion across models. My RS1 had them pretty good but have been very lucky since. The 4810 not a hint. But with that X90 it seems kind of unacceptable to me as you've paid a premium for that extra contrast which those muck up on a dark screen, and supposedly hand selected parts. No one in QC on that top of the line model noticed it before boxing it up and shipping it at the premium price?
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post #3074 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 12:52 PM
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Just a small comment: Soupdragon didn't pay anything for that X90, it was damaged and he managed to get it working again.eek.gif However, it is disappointing if it suffers from them, but to be fair it's only on a complete fade to black that you'll see it.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #3075 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 12:57 PM
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Of all the problems my 4810 had the bright corners were the main thing that was unacceptable and merited an exchange from the supplier.
I just received my replacement and will unbox it and take a look this weekend Man I hope I got a decent sample for the amount of money I paid for it
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post #3076 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 01:28 PM
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Thanks for all of the reviews.

I'm new to the HT world and wasn't sure until I read all the feedback in the thread which projector I wanted.

I've decided to go with the Sony VPL-HW50.

Any suggestions on dealers you have worked with in the past would be appreciated.

I'm looking to purchase it before the end of January.

Thanks,

JT
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post #3077 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 01:50 PM
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Any suggestions on dealers you have worked with in the past would be appreciated.
You're kidding, right?

Call AVS.
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post #3078 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Just a small comment: Soupdragon didn't pay anything for that X90, it was damaged and he managed to get it working again.eek.gif However, it is disappointing if it suffers from them, but to be fair it's only on a complete fade to black that you'll see it.
Yep, the bright corners on mine (lower two) are mild and you can only see them on a completely black screen. Evidently Ed's were significantly worse than that. All four LCoS projectors I've had have had bright corners so at this point I'd be shocked to get a projector without them.
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post #3079 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 02:30 PM
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I've decided to go with the Sony VPL-HW50.

Any suggestions on dealers you have worked with in the past would be appreciated.

I'm looking to purchase it before the end of January.

Thanks,

JT

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post #3080 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 03:16 PM
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After a JVC imaging engineer explained the cause of bright corners to me...

So what was the explanation?
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post #3081 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 08:34 PM
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The thread is too large to read every page. I'm very curious about a direct comparison to the Epson 5020 and a JVC, brightness and black levels for 2D.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Snake Plissken

 

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post #3082 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 08:48 PM
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The thread is too large to read every page. I'm very curious about a direct comparison to the Epson 5020 and a JVC, brightness and black levels for 2D.

Check this thread out:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450892/help-me-choose-jvc-x55-vs-x35-vs-sony-50es-vs-epson-6020-projector/0_50

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post #3083 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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The thread is too large to read every page. I'm very curious about a direct comparison to the Epson 5020 and a JVC, brightness and black levels for 2D.

what is your room setup?
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post #3084 of 9027 Old 01-18-2013, 08:58 PM
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So what was the explanation?
Variance in the thickness of the imaging panels. Apparently it's very, very difficult to manufacture the D-ILA panels to exactly even thicknesses. This causes non-uniformity in the amount of light blocked/passed through each panel. The factory individually calibrates each projector to compensate for this, but since there's no available "gain" for pure black signals, there's no way to correct for the white-corners-on-black-screens effect.

I'm sure he was oversimplifying, but that was the gist of it.
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post #3085 of 9027 Old 01-19-2013, 12:21 AM
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Samsara was a ****ing mind blower!! eek.gif I dont know that I have ever been that impressed with my RS45. The whole disc within reason is one giant PQ demo piece, but starting at ~34:50 and for the next ~1:30 minutes is pure JVC native contrast showoff material. Basically just sped up footage of a city at night, but the blacks combined with the bright white lights and other colors really show the strengths of non DI native contrast.

Like Zombie mentioned though, EVERY HD projector/display owner should check out this disc if you want to really show off your display.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #3086 of 9027 Old 01-19-2013, 12:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Hi,

It's been a while I did not post in this thread. smile.gif I am still happy with my Sony HW50. It is a great projector but I miss my VW95 for the quality of his lens and motorize zoom and focus compare to the HW50. I think I may buy a refurb one when AVS will have some in stock. The best option for me will be the upgrade model from the VW95... But It look like it wont be until the end of the year. As for the better 3D in the HW50, it's the only thing that make me keep the projector since the 3D is very good on it. For the RC, in the beginning I was impress by the RC and after a while I found myself distract by how the RC modify the image. I then turn the RC down, and down, and down, and finally off biggrin.gif Now I only use the RC for 3D.

One upgrade that I like the most is my new Lumagen Radiance XS-3D. "Influence" by Zombie post in this thread I decide to buy one and try the Chromapure 125 pt auto calibration. The result is awesome ! In less than one hour, the XS and Chromapure do all the work and give you a near perfect calibration. I know I have all the control on the HW50 to do a separate calibration but in the end it's more complicated and time consuming. Also the Lumagen have all kind of options to help you with your image. For exemple, I copy my calibration setting to another memory and from there modify couple of things to make the image better suit for sport viewing. There so many things that can be done with that machine, I am still experiencing...

That's it for now, I will continue to read this thread, it's one of the best around here... Keep the good work.

good news on the radiance / 125 pt autocal setup. I was originally getting some odd results but then tried it again after I blacked out the room with much better results. I think the ceiling reflections and the HP screen were throwing off the meter.

I like the RC and it's impressive for what it does to the PQ. I think the e-shift performs a similar function, but it's more subtle and appears more natural to my eyes sitting close the 142" screen. I could see turning off RC with certain movies even with the minimum setting.

I would have like to have seen Sony release the V2.0 of the VW95 with all the same improvements of the HW30->HW50. I think it would have been quite popular if it was released now. If it comes out in the fall, it will depend on what JVC has up it's sleeve. I don't think JVC will re-purpose this chassis again for the 4th time, but it's hard to say.
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post #3087 of 9027 Old 01-19-2013, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

good news on the radiance / 125 pt autocal setup. I was originally getting some odd results but then tried it again after I blacked out the room with much better results. I think the ceiling reflections and the HP screen were throwing off the meter.

I like the RC and it's impressive for what it does to the PQ. I think the e-shift performs a similar function, but it's more subtle and appears more natural to my eyes sitting close the 142" screen. I could see turning off RC with certain movies even with the minimum setting.

I would have like to have seen Sony release the V2.0 of the VW95 with all the same improvements of the HW30->HW50. I think it would have been quite popular if it was released now. If it comes out in the fall, it will depend on what JVC has up it's sleeve. I don't think JVC will re-purpose this chassis again for the 4th time, but it's hard to say.

Maybe updated LCOS panels? Better motion and 3D would be killer!

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post #3088 of 9027 Old 01-19-2013, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Samsara was a ****ing mind blower!! eek.gif I dont know that I have ever been that impressed with my RS45. The whole disc within reason is one giant PQ demo piece, but starting at ~34:50 and for the next ~1:30 minutes is pure JVC native contrast showoff material. Basically just sped up footage of a city at night, but the blacks combined with the bright white lights and other colors really show the strengths of non DI native contrast.

Like Zombie mentioned though, EVERY HD projector/display owner should check out this disc if you want to really show off your display.

definitely killer demo material and shows they can make BD look amazing if they put the effort into a quality transfer. The night scenes are out of this world and shows off the JVC's primarily strength in a way that is more convincing than the other models. The stark contrast on the HP screen hits all the right buttons between the eyes and the brain.

it's funny, I was reading the amazon comments on this documentary. One guy was upset about the 'chicken scene' because it was offensive to his 'date'. He felt he should have been 'warned'. Who would take someone on a date to see this movie? biggrin.gif
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post #3089 of 9027 Old 01-19-2013, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

definitely killer demo material and shows they can make BD look amazing if they put the effort into a quality transfer. The night scenes are out of this world and shows off the JVC's primarily strength in a way that is more convincing than the other models. The stark contrast on the HP screen hits all the right buttons between the eyes and the brain.

it's funny, I was reading the amazon comments on this documentary. One guy was upset about the 'chicken scene' because it was offensive to his 'date'. He felt he should have been 'warned'. Who would take someone on a date to see this movie? biggrin.gif


That is nuts! Yeah, not a date movie. Much to heavy for that. So many amazing scenes on this disc. The part where they are in the mountains and going over the glaciers was just jaw dropping! That picture made of sand................. eek.gif I could not believe they just wiped that piece of art away toward the end like it was no big deal. Amazing disc.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #3090 of 9027 Old 01-19-2013, 01:06 AM
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If you guys were amazed with Samsara you should check out Baraka and Chronos. Both were done by Ron Fricke and Mark Magidson and shot on 65mm film.

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