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post #3241 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 02:28 AM
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I didn't do any measurement last night, just a basic test to see if using HDMI enhanced and adjusting brightness, black level and gamma controls (all in the JVC) could be used to make 17 bar visible without raising the black level. I had already checked my greyscale and gamma on Friday night but using Superwhite (brightness at 0) and maintained a gamma that slightly lowers towards 0% (2.3 above 20% or so, dropping towards 2.2 lower down).

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #3242 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 03:17 AM
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Thoses lucky enough to have a Lumagen.

For more shadow detail...

Move point 2 (in 21 point gamma) to 1% and increase output to around 2.

That's it. Set point 3 at 5% and continue on from there.


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post #3243 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 03:36 AM
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Don't you see banding with it set that high? If you look at the 18 and 19 bars then I start to see vertical stripes down them on my X35 with 1% set above about 1.5?

Also, you could use the JVC 5% control but I didn't need to plus I don't know how much impact it has on surrounding % levels (one of the reasons I got the Lumagen in the first place was the flaky custom gamma in my HD350.

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post #3244 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 04:41 AM
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Yes I did, but it does not show in real world material.

0.5% does not chage much, so 1% was the better option.

If you feel you have enough shadow detail at luma output 1.5 leave it at that.

At 2 it pulls out a great deal. 1.7 or 1.8 would be perfect.


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post #3245 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 05:09 AM
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I found that using 0.5% and adjusting the Luma to 0.6 or above would raise the black floor anyway, which was why I moved to 1%. In a way it's a moot point for me since my room needs further improvement, but this will happen hopefully in a month or two, so no harm in preparing for it.

I haven't got myHD350 anymore, but I'm sure I went through this process and found that I could see the 17 bar without having to tweak the Lumagen (I've never moved the 5% control previously for sure). Perhaps it was just down to slight tolerances that it worked OK on the HD350 (and I had a temporary black 'tent' set up that helped reduce room reflections considerably.

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post #3246 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 05:09 AM
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If we talk about depth and popup effect @3d which one is better? Epson5020 or sonyhw50es?
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post #3247 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 05:31 AM
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I haven't seen an HW50, but one feature that really works for me on the 5020 is the depth controls/screen size settings and 3D brightness. You can adjust these to help control the 3D effect and crosstalk.
Many say you should only adjust the brightness setting, but I found playing with the screen size created a difference in the perception of 3D, something that DID NOT happen when I adjusted it on my JVC RS40.
I did however choose to leave it at factory default, as I found the 3D very good out of the box.

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post #3248 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 08:35 AM
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Kelvin/SOWK, thanks for testing this and reporting in. I did just the 11 point gamma last time (which is what Tom suggested), but will do the 21 point and this tweak next week when I have to recal anyway for my 2.35 (I calibrated in high lamp last time which has a constant flicker so I am going to recal in low).

I did do a 21 point gamma on my first calibration (which I had to scrap and redo for other reasons) and noticed the 11 point was checked in the Lumagen menu after, not 21......any idea why? confused.gif

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post #3249 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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great discussion on the lumagen calibrations... keep it going.. !

a few weeks ago I mentioned wanting to directly compare the 3D performance of the Epson 5020 and BenQ W7000. I recently spent a few hours with a direct A/B setup watching various clips of my favorite 3D movies.

This is the first time I've had to chance to watch 3D with my newly blacked out room. My 142" 16:9 is very close to my ceiling (inches) and fills up an entire wall. It's remarkable how much more engaging the 3D is when there is nothing in sight around the frame to distract our attention.. this is a good and bad thing...

The bad is now PQ flaws are more obvious to my eyes. For example, I can now see the iris on the 5020. In 2D and 3D. My HP screen is bright so subtle changes in brightness are magnified times 2.8 and it becomes a bit distracting. I'll probably get used to it,but it's something I didn't really notice before the treatments.

After the change to the dark side, the RS55 is the 2D star of the show here, it looks outstanding @ -11.

Epson 5020 vs BenQ W7000

5020vsW7000.jpg


Both projectors have been discussed in detail regarding 3D, so these are just a few observations.

  • 3D glasses - For the Epson, I was using the factory RF glasses. I used the Optoma ZD201's for the BQ. These are 'technically' the best DLP link glasses i've used since both lens completely block out the red flash signal. This is important for maintaining perceived contrast in both eyes. The 2nd best in this regard is the TrueDepth 3D's. The BQ 2nd gen are amazingly comfortable with large lens but actually perform the worst in this regard. Too much red flash gets through the right eye which is distracting.

  • Brightness - The Epson is a bit bright than the BQ. I also have 375 hours on the BQ lamp and the Epson is less than 100, so it's hard to compare them directly in this regard without new lamps. The W7000 at dead center on the HP is bright enough for me. The Epson appears 1 notch brighter in the direct A/B.

  • Color - Both projectors can be calibrated behind the glasses and corrected for the tint color. Everyone who has a meter should do this. 3D is much more convincing when the color is right. Both looked very good behind the glasses, no real winner here.

  • Contrast - The #'s show there is a noticeable difference between the 5020 and the BQ W7000. You can easily see this in 2D if we're watching sci-fi. It's not as obvious in 3D mode with the glasses.One of my favorite movies to use in this comparison in Step Up 3D. It was shot in native 3D, very sharp overall and has great shadow detail in the various night club 'battle' scenes. The Epson has a bit of an advantage here, but it's not as clear-cut as the #'s would have you believe. Neither are the JVC in this regard.

  • Flicker - Epson is very good here. Better than the the Sony, and definitely better than the JVC. Overall a non issue for those sensitive to flicker. Those 480hz panels are doing some work here.

  • Crosstalk - My room is a now a math formula for seeing crosstalk. Big Screen + 2.8 High Power material + close seating + dark room = you will see crosstalk if it's there. At least I will since I have been spoiled by the 3D DLP which cannot display crosstalk under any circumstances. The Epson 5020 is very good in this regard for a non-DLP. About on par with the HW50 with 3D frame packed content. Just like seeing the iris now with the dark room, the crosstalk on the 5020 has become a bit more obvious.

  • FI in 3D - I watched a number of action scenes in the Avengers and a few other titles. The W7000 has excellent FI in low mode. It doesn't look like soap opera effect, just a very subtle smoothing of the image during fast paced scenes. The HW50 also has an excellent FI in 3D as well. IMO, This needs to be a requirement going forward. Even those who generally don't like FI in 2D are likely going to enjoy in 3D.




This was a personal comparison for me because I was considering going over the 5020 from the W7000. Mainly because of the RF glasses. We have visitors and keeping the DLP links glasses in sync with the younger folks can be a bit of a challenge. It's actually better now that my ceiling is dark, I think the room reflections were causing issues with the DLP link signal. Also, FI is now a requirement for me in 3D. I am expecting we'll see this added to the '5030' assuming they are going to follow up again next year.

My conclusion - I have been tainted by 3D DLP's crosstalk abilities. I saw this in 2010 when comparing the Acer 5360 vs the JVC RS40. How could it have been possible a $500 projector whooped on the expensive JVC? (flicker and crosstalk, obviously not contrast). I am staying with the BQ W7000 (for now) as it's a great 3D compliment to my JVC RS55.

it's interesting that 3D could have become DLP's 2nd lease on life. TI hasn't made changes in years. The mid-tier (5-10k) DLP market is pretty much gone. it's either 3K or below or 10K + now. This is a shame as I think there would be a market for an under 10K 3D DLP with a DC4 and decent brightness. Marantz and Samsung could have likely done this if they stayed in the market.


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post #3250 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 09:48 AM
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Great comparison Zombie, thanks again. I agree with you 100% about your FI comments in relation to 3d. This is a requirement for me from this point forward as far as 3d projectors go. I am not a fan of FI on 2d material other than animation, but in 3d I use it on everything (low mode for all non animated material) as I just dont see the soap opera effect either in low and it really just gives the motion a very natural and smooth sensation which is fantastic and makes the 3d that much more convincing. cool.gif

As far as the DI goes, I have still never seen one in my room that I did not find distracting (there are quite a few projectors I have not seen though to be fair) as I can see them pumping away and in the case of the 7000, I turned it off immediately as it was annoying.

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post #3251 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 10:01 AM
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As far as the DI goes, I have still never seen one in my room that I did not find distracting (there are quite a few projectors I have not seen though to be fair) as I can seem them pumping away and in the case of the 7000, I turned it off immediately as it was annoying.

FWIW, I've never noticed the DI on the Sony HW30 (so I assume it's that good or better on the later/better models). I did notice it on a Panny before. It's easy to see why people say the DI on the Sonys are quite good...

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post #3252 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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FWIW, I've never noticed the DI on the Sony HW30 (so I assume it's that good or better on the later/better models). I did notice it on a Panny before. It's easy to see why people say the DI on the Sonys are quite good...

The Sony HW50 DI is better than the Epson 5020 if someone is sensitive to DI changes.


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post #3253 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 11:35 AM
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FWIW, I've never noticed the DI on the Sony HW30 (so I assume it's that good or better on the later/better models). I did notice it on a Panny before. It's easy to see why people say the DI on the Sonys are quite good...

That is good to hear. I have not seen the newer Sonys or Epsons, but should be able to check them out at Cedia this year.

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post #3254 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 01:37 PM
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Jason,

I have an all black velvet movie room. You do notice more flaws in the picture at times, but only seeing the image on screen is amazing. A 1.0 screen is plenty bright even using my old RS2 clone with 1800 hours on the lamp. I now find theaters way too distracting with all the lights etc.. Also, if you' watch black and white films, nothings beats an all black room.smile.gif

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My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #3255 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 01:44 PM
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Jason,

I have an all black velvet movie room. You do notice more flaws in the picture at times, but only seeing the image on screen is amazing. A 1.0 screen is plenty bright even using my old RS2 clone with 1800 hours on the lamp. I now find theaters way too distracting with all the lights etc.. Also, if you' watch black and white films, nothings beats an all black room.smile.gif

Tom

Brother do you have any pics of ur room? have a nice day
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post #3256 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 02:17 PM
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Finnally, with all the good talk about the High Power, I decide to go with a dual screen setup I will buy a High Power 2.35:1 smile.gif

I will also sell my HW50 for a VW95 as I will use the zoom technique to go from one screen to the other...

So my Sony HW50 is officially for sale. Look at the AVS classifeds for all the details

An option is to have 2 16:9 screens with mask ability........as I did here*(both HP's).........movies such Avatar look great on the larger @ 16:9

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Ncvn_Qtdg

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post #3257 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 02:23 PM
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Hi guy's,

I could really use some advice. My current projector, an RS2 clone, has very poor convergence. My scope screen is 40x96 and I use the zoom CIH method. I sit at 1x this screen width so this convergence issue is a HUGE problem as well. The wide color gamut drives me nuts as well. After owning JVC, with it's native contrast, I will only consider JVC projectors for 2D for the time being. I wanted a 1st generation JVC 3D projector when they came out but the poor 3D kept me from a purchase. JVC's generation 2 and now generation 3 3D projectors have all been below par and I'm sick of waiting. I really want a zero ghosting 3D projector and am willing to sacrifice contrast to get it. After reading this thread and forum, I know that DLP is the only zero ghosting option. Even if JVC improves it's 3D dramatically I assume ghosting is still going to be somewhat noticeable so a 2 projector setup sounds like the way to go.

As far as 2d goes, I assume I would want a JVC with e-shift given my close viewing distance? I was leaning towards the 4810 but Jason prefers e-shift 1 over e-shift 2 so now I'm really confused what to do.confused.gif The first gen e-shift jvc's concern me because of the lamp issues

As far as 3D goes, I was wanting a w7000 but my 13 foot deep room isn't deep enough for it to fill the screen. I sure wish it had a short throw like the JVC'S. Are there any any under 2k 3D DLP' projectors that would fill my screen? Also, I need to be able to do the zoom method without moving the DLP projector if at all possible.

Thanks for any advice!smile.gif

Tom

My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #3258 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 02:33 PM
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You are a perfect candidate for the Benq w1070 for 3D, it's only $900 and it should fit in your room. I am not sure how you'll handle the 16:9 stuff on the scope screen with the BENQ, hence you said the zoom method, well these sub-2k DLP's don't have motorized zoom and lens-shift, so I guess you mean the manual adjust lens shift + zoom the PJ ?
I am not sure if the Benq w1070 has enough lens shift to do the manual move method, but otherwise, you can use an HTPC media player to watch 16:9 stuff on and use the lens shift to mostly fix it, that way it doesn't require an additional purchase to scale 16:9 on a scope screen. The other option is to buy the Lumagen which can do the re-scale across all content that is input to it as its source, but Lumagens are a bit pricey unless you can find a refurb or a sale deal.

See about getting a used RS-55, take the savings and buy an extra warranty and an extra lamp. The lamp concerns don't matter to most people unless they put a lot of hours on their projector. Also if you are really worried, you can buy an aftermarket warranty for the spare JVC lamp and that will cover you.

If you have further questions, start a separate thread as some people might start yelling about "off-topic", although the last 20 pages of this thread are off-topic smile.gif



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post #3259 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 03:08 PM
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Thanks for the advice.smile.gif Any idea where I could find a used RS55? I really need terrific convergence and focus. If only Jason had a replacement for his RS55.biggrin.gif

Manual zoom, focus and shift is all I need in a DLP for 3D. I just don't want to physically move the entire projector all the time.

Tom

My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #3260 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 03:28 PM
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Thanks for the advice.smile.gif Any idea where I could find a used RS55? I really need terrific convergence and focus. If only Jason had a replacement for his RS55.biggrin.gif

Manual zoom, focus and shift is all I need in a DLP for 3D. I just don't want to physically move the entire projector all the time.

Tom

Someone had one in the classifieds with low hours on it. I messaged him just a few weeks back and he still had it up for sale.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443170/jvc-rs55-250-hours-only-2-pairs-3d-glasses

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Usual places, videogon, ebay, this forum's classifieds section, etc...
Though RS-55's are harder to come by in the used market than the RS-45's or RS-65's.



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post #3262 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 03:46 PM
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Someone had one in the classifieds with low hours on it. I messaged him just a few weeks back and he still had it up for sale.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443170/jvc-rs55-250-hours-only-2-pairs-3d-glasses


Thanks!

I checked the avs ads but missed that one. Hopefully he will respond to my pm.

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post #3263 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 05:14 PM
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Thanks for the advice.smile.gif Any idea where I could find a used RS55? I really need terrific convergence and focus. If only Jason had a replacement for his RS55.biggrin.gif

Manual zoom, focus and shift is all I need in a DLP for 3D. I just don't want to physically move the entire projector all the time.

Tom

wait til next year and you'll pick one up for around $2500
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Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

Thanks!

I checked the avs ads but missed that one. Hopefully he will respond to my pm.

Tom

I PMed him earlier in the week and haven't gotten a response yet. So, he either sold it or hasn't gotten an email letting him know someone is interested.

Mike

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
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post #3266 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 11:10 PM
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I agree, Sharp XV-Z30000 might be the best DLP under 3k right now.
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post #3267 of 9103 Old 01-27-2013, 11:20 PM
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No CFI in 3D, not as bright as the Benq or Epson in 3D, past Sharp had poor lens (not as sharp), but it does have motorized controls and better blacks.

What Art said about the sharpness of the XV-Z30000...
"I'm not sure this is the sharpest (no pun intended) optical glass around, I think the Mitubishi H7800D, for example, is a touch sharper, but the Z30000 is definitely very detailed, and at least a touch better than the 3LCD projectors in the price range (LCoS too). "

I would probably take a gamble on a refurb Optoma hd8300 if you are looking for a good 3D projector with decent blacks, as it has CFI and a sharper lens and costs much less in the refurb market than the sharp does new.



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post #3268 of 9103 Old 01-28-2013, 12:55 AM
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What Art said about the sharpness of the XV-Z30000...
That was Art's unit, don't you agree? You like to tell people about unit-to-unit variances. Remind yourself that might be the case here too.
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I would probably take a gamble on a refurb Optoma hd8300 if you are looking for a good 3D projector with decent blacks, as it has CFI and a sharper lens and costs much less in the refurb market than the sharp does new.
Sharper lens is arguable. Lack of CFI - I agree, it's not a plus (but not an issue for HTPC users at least, with software like SVP). Contrast, color, processing, placement flexibility, memory lens - Sharp takes all the prizes here.
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post #3269 of 9103 Old 01-28-2013, 02:04 AM
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Well we just don't know until someone tests it, I am just pointing out potential negatives, not saying we know for sure. I agree it's not 100% conclusive, but I'd put it as a probable concern. Unit to unit variance more applies to LCD, though I will say some BENQ DLP's have had lens uniformity issues, but the majority of DLP samples will be similar. There is some evidence here, not just Art's review, there is also an owner's thread of the older 3D sharps which all had lens uniformity issues. So in combining the listed evidence from past history, and what Art says, I would be concerned.

I am not sure which has better blacks the Sharp or Optoma hd8300, but I wonder if the difference is substantial enough for the other traits. The Sharp is more feature-rich, but the Optoma hd8300 also has very good color. The reason I say the Benq w7000 or Optoma hd8300 are preferred is because there are fewer unknowns, they've already been tested in the forum by many.



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post #3270 of 9103 Old 01-28-2013, 03:18 AM
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3D-shootout51.jpg

I found a way to position the projector on one of my seats and it fills most of the 142" (more like 133" now). The projector is ~14 feet from the screen. 3D mode with all default settings (iris set to high brightness) was 978 lumens. In this position, it's pretty bright on the HP. Definitely brighter than the 4810.

The image is rock solid, similar to the other 3D DLP's like the Acer 5360 and the BQ W7000. The motion is also very good in 3D, I don't see a need for FI when it's this good. This is with the high speed glasses @ 120hz (other option is 96hz). Speaking of the glasses, they are lightweight and comfortable. The color through the glasses looks very good with the default settings. I haven't measure it yet, but I'd say the HC8000 is closer to D65 through the glasses than any of the other models I've tested recently.

3D DLP's are flawless with crosstalk performance, there is no tripping up these projectors even with the toughest content. I don't see any rainbows in 3D. The contrast in 3D overall is very good, competitive with the Epson and Sony. If it had a full lens shift, I'd probably want to keep this for a while since it's quite good with 3D.

3D-shootout67.jpg

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Step Up 3D


3D-shootout72.jpg

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Hi Zombie just a few questions about the Mitsubishi HC8000, I am considering this unit, but wondering if ill have trouble mounting it. I'm going to ceiling mount it about 17 feet away in a light controlled room, the lens will be centered with the very top of the screen basically pointing to the frame on the screen on the very top in the center and my screen is 106 inch diagonal with 1.3 gain. Will the HC8000 work in this setup? also does this projector have a dust filter or is it filter less? I have heard that DLP is a sealed light path just wondering if its so cause im sick and tired of dust blobs on cheap Panasonic garbage. Also where is this unit made? is it Japan or China?
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