Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 111 - AVS Forum
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post #3301 of 9103 Old 01-29-2013, 11:27 PM
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Mine is at 100 hours.Crosstalk cancellor set to 8(brightest setting).
For me and the missus.3D mode and high lamp is uncomfortably bright
in 3d.
We have it set on low lamp,and stage or natural setting.
My brother also has the x35 but on a 120 ".His we run in stage mode with the lamp on high.
Dont watch any kids 3d,mostly sci-fi type 3d.Am thinking for the type of movies we watch
the JVC does a fab job in 3d
About the Sony,ive heard it crosstalks with SBS.Can any who own it here comment on that.
I fit ghosts like crazy at 300 hours ill send it back.
JVCs web site definately states ghost free 3d as a feature.
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post #3302 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergio9412 View Post

Oh oh you say you need 16 inches above the screen well mine is 106 inches 16x9 and the frame touches the ceiling its about a 6 foot ceiling. Is it going to be an issue? I cant go lower with the screen because then my center channel speaker will cover it. I measured and I only have 5 inches from the screen material to the ceiling. The frame itself actually touches the ceiling.

Hi Zombie im just reposting this because I think you missed it and I still haven't heard from you. I'm just waiting to pull the trigger on this one, but first have to make sure its going to work.
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post #3303 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 04:05 AM
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That ceiling is too low, as the least amount of lens shift is about 10 inches above the top of the viewable part of the screen's edge (not frame) for that screen size.

Take a look at the Benq w7000, it will FIT perfectly for this setup because the w7000 has center-based lens shift (you can place it anywhere within the screen area). Other than black levels, the w7000 beats the Mits anyways (wins in sharpness and has FI in 3D, brighter 2D, brighter 3D). The Benq is actually bareable in dark scenes after some tweaking of the IRIS, it's not that bad. Otherwise, take a look at the Epson/Sony/JVC offerings, because the w7000 is the only DLP that is going to fit in that room.



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post #3304 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 04:15 AM
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Quick question. I just recently got an RS35. When setting the iris is there any difference between let's say having the projector in low lamp mode with the iris open all the way vs high lamp mode with the iris partially open? In both examples if set up for the same lumens would they be identical?

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post #3305 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 04:18 AM
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The contrast is higher with the IRIS clamped down, so you get higher contrast with the IRIS partially closed or closed completely (deeper blacks w/ brighter whites).
Though you might not notice much difference.



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post #3306 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergio9412 View Post

Hi Zombie im just reposting this because I think you missed it and I still haven't heard from you. I'm just waiting to pull the trigger on this one, but first have to make sure its going to work.

Hi, see coderguy's response, it won't work in your setup without tilting + keystone adjustments which isn't recommended. There's a number of other good choices that will provide better mounting flexibility.


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post #3307 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 07:51 AM
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Why does an aging bulb create more ghosting? If brightness and ghosting are a tradeoff why would an aging bulb that is less bright result in more ghosting? Just trying to understand.

Thanks
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post #3308 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

@ Dionyz... I think it is a bit disingenuous to claim those wanting more 3D lumens desire a BB image. There are standards (e.g. SMPTE 196M) and recommendations (e.g. 12-16ftL) for brightness and just because most have accepted well below those standards and recommendations for 3D and have allowed for things like ignoring calibration and lowering gamma (not saying that you have done either of these) does not mean that those that pay attention to brightness in 3D desire a torch-mode image. Just do the math... if you desire 12ftL for your image and your 3D glasses eliminate roughly 80% of the light, a rough estimate is that you should have 60ftL in 3D mode. Calibrated. Can you point me to a projector that does that on a reference 142" screen for under $5K? 60 sqft of screen, 1.1 gain, 60ftL... that translates to nearly 3300 calibrated lumens in 3D mode to get 12ftL to your eyes. It is not a desire for BB style image that people want more brightness in a 3D mode, it is a desire for a decently bright, detailed image with correct colors. Again, doing the math, if zombie is getting 1K lumens to his 60 sqft screen in 3D mode for a given PJ, and is getting 2.5 gain at the viewer position, that still only comes to about 8ftL equivalent after the glasses... I can see why he's still searching for more brightness!

560 lumens in 3D with ~80% active sync shutter loss and a low gain screen would not be mistaken for a Best Buy 'Torch Mode' display. cool.gif

folks have to take into account a number of items:

  • This is a comparison thread to compare the various projectors with objective information. All 3D lumen measurements are provided as a way of making an objective decision for those that understand the #'s and can use them to pick the right projector for their environment.

  • The projector out of the box is as bright as it's going to get. Lumens will drop as the lamp ages and 3D will get dimmer as time goes on.

  • Different size screens & projector distance will required more 3D lumen horsepower to produce the minimum recommended ft-L through the glasses


I've seen every 3D JVC that's been made since 2010. They most certainly did reduce the ghosting this year by a significant margin. This comes at the expense of 3D brightness and a shift in contrast / sharpness compared to the previous models. It shouldn't stop anyone from enjoying their new projector, but we still discuss the close up details so others can see the changes that were made between each generation.

RS46 (prefirmware), same as RS40 / RS55

3D-shootout13.jpg

RS4810

3D-shootout14.jpg


3D-shootout17.jpg

3D-shootout18.jpg


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post #3309 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post

Why does an aging bulb create more ghosting? If brightness and ghosting are a tradeoff why would an aging bulb that is less bright result in more ghosting? Just trying to understand.

Thanks

We don't know, but it does. One theory is that it's the extra heat a new lamp generates. Both my JVCs ghosted a LOT more with age, and my Epson 6010 at about 2,000 hours is getting close to having the amount of ghosting of the JVCs with new lamps.

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post #3310 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post

Why does an aging bulb create more ghosting? If brightness and ghosting are a tradeoff why would an aging bulb that is less bright result in more ghosting? Just trying to understand.

Thanks

there's been some speculation that it's related to heat. The theory is that the dimmer lamp produces less heat and the panels aren't as quick to react during transitions in the stereo image.


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post #3311 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


3D-shootout17.jpg

3D-shootout18.jpg

It is a new lamp and less brightness, that is a double whammy against comparing it.
Let's see the same amount of hours on the lamp at equal brightness, then it's a fair comparison. The problem is we can't, so even your comparison (although in good faith) cannot tell us exactly.

At 1,500 hours on the 5010, it's quickly starting to catch up to the ghosting of the JVC (though it's only about half atm).
This is the problem folks with NON-DLP 3D.



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post #3312 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Yusuf.0088 View Post

I confirm that Sony hw50 has no ghosting with 3D blu-ray and even with HSBS content.
Only time I've seen ghosting is when I was watching Prometeus HSBS (scene on 18th min). Glasses brightness was on "3", I tried to change it to "0" and crosstalk disappeared.

I don't know about your setup but on my 119" HP 2.4 screen I can definately see ghosting on the Sony HW50ES with most (all?) brightness settings. I watched Prometheus 3D yesterday and there were several scenes with ghosting visible even when not looking for it, if you look for ghosting you can find it rather easily. All in all Prometheus still looked rather good, even with some ghosting. I think I'm more annoyed by the slight flicker in bright details. Right in the start of Sammy's adventure with the bright sun and sky, the flicker is very apparent and annoying. Some slight ghosting is visible throughout the film.
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post #3313 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 08:34 AM
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The idea is to not look for it. If its there but you generally don't see it because you are looking elsewhere in the picture than where the ghosting occurs or God forbid you are taking in the entire scene, you won't see it. Forums are great. We get trained to see every weakness that a particular projector has rather than just enjoying what it does do and training ourselves NOT to see problems.

If you think a HP is great and causes no problems or doesn't take certain desirable characterics of high picture quality away, then great. Enjoy it. that's what most do here. They don't know ad don't want to know. the forum reinforces those beliefs. Its great. Why act differently re projectors? His projector is great. He enjoys it and doesn't see the ghosting. He is a lucky man.

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post #3314 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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The brighter the 3D / gain of the screen, the more obvious ghosting becomes. With my setup (2.8 HP, lens center mount) you don't have to go looking for crosstalk, it's right there. Especially on a 142" screen @ 1.25 SW.

If you have a small, low gain screen, crosstalk hides in the shadows once the active shutter glasses consume nearly 80% of the light coming off the screen.

With my newly blacked out ceiling, I was surprised how much more I saw it on the Epson 5020 recently with only ~100 hours on the lamp. The 3D DLP's are flawless in this regard.


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post #3315 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 08:56 AM
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I don't find that to be the case. I now have both a 1.0 gain screen and a high power 2.4 in front of it, and if anything, the ghosting is less not more. With more gain, there's also the potential to dial back the monstervision 3d glasses settings to potentially reduce crosstalk. This is on my Sony vw95. I see some ghosting occasionally on both, but no more on the high power. I actually find Hugo the most irritating, with the side of the boy's face ghosting frequently (white face with dark backgrounds). Avatar and Prometheus I see minimal ghosting. None of my guests have ever mentioned it on any movies, because they aren't looking for it.
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post #3316 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 09:02 AM
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Was there a reason JVC went to the connections on the side of their projectors for awhile? Was there some benefit technically to this design that is was worth moving the connections to an obviously worse location on the side vs the rear?

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post #3317 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 09:26 AM
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Ghosting gets bad enough eventually that you'd have to be a one-eyed cyclops not to see it. It's like saying cross your eyes and pretend you're using normal vision because it really does get that bad eventually on some content.



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post #3318 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The brighter the 3D / gain of the screen, the more obvious ghosting becomes. With my setup (2.8 HP, lens center mount) you don't have to go looking for crosstalk, it's right there. Especially on a 142" screen @ 1.25 SW.

If you have a small, low gain screen, crosstalk hides in the shadows once the active shutter glasses consume nearly 80% of the light coming off the screen.

With my newly blacked out ceiling, I was surprised how much more I saw it on the Epson 5020 recently with only ~100 hours on the lamp. The 3D DLP's are flawless in this regard.

This is exactly my experience as well. Moving from my ST130 to the HP 2.8 a few years back when I had my RS40, I noticed a few things pretty quickly. Not only did ghosting become considerably more obvious on the brighter 2.8 vs my ST130 and vs what I was seeing on Sam's ~1.0 AT screen, but flicker was also much easier to see now. The brighter the 3d, the more obvious the flaws like ghosting and flicker will become. The dimmer the 3d, the more these issues will be masked which is a big part of why people with big low gain screens in particular using the new JVCs this year are not noticing the ghosting and flicker that is still undoubtedly there to some degree (I know it has been improved). It is a compromise either way you cut it though.............less light with less noticeable ghosting/flicker or more light with more ghosting/flicker............. I was sick of all of those headaches and just grabbed a single chip DLP. biggrin.gif You get the brightness, zero ghosting and zero flicker. cool.gif Thanks to the work done in this thread, I like knowing that not only do I get truly ghost/flicker free 3d with the BenQ, but literally TWO times the light output (560 vs 1100) in 3d vs having gone with the 4810 which I was considering at one point.


Not to mention warm up time, increased ghosting as the lamp ages and no FI in 3d................. I am SO glad not to have to think about the "warm up time" anymore and dont have to worry what my 3d will look like with 500 hours on the lamp (my RS40 got MUCH worse as far as ghosting between 300-400 hours on the lamp). Good riddance to all those headaches!

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #3319 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

That ceiling is too low, as the least amount of lens shift is about 10 inches above the top of the viewable part of the screen's edge (not frame) for that screen size.

Take a look at the Benq w7000, it will FIT perfectly for this setup because the w7000 has center-based lens shift (you can place it anywhere within the screen area). Other than black levels, the w7000 beats the Mits anyways (wins in sharpness and has FI in 3D, brighter 2D, brighter 3D). The Benq is actually bareable in dark scenes after some tweaking of the IRIS, it's not that bad. Otherwise, take a look at the Epson/Sony/JVC offerings, because the w7000 is the only DLP that is going to fit in that room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Hi, see coderguy's response, it won't work in your setup without tilting + keystone adjustments which isn't recommended. There's a number of other good choices that will provide better mounting flexibility.

Are you guys sure that it wont work because remember the projector sits 5 to 6 inches down from the ceiling not flush with it?
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post #3320 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 04:14 PM
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Yes, we're sure.
Even with a flush mount, it still would not work.



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post #3321 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

This is exactly my experience as well. Moving from my ST130 to the HP 2.8 a few years back when I had my RS40, I noticed a few things pretty quickly. Not only did ghosting become considerably more obvious on the brighter 2.8 vs my ST130 and vs what I was seeing on Sam's ~1.0 AT screen, but flicker was also much easier to see now. The brighter the 3d, the more obvious the flaws like ghosting and flicker will become. The dimmer the 3d, the more these issues will be masked which is a big part of why people with big low gain screens in particular using the new JVCs this year are not noticing the ghosting and flicker that is still undoubtedly there to some degree (I know it has been improved). It is a compromise either way you cut it though.............less light with less noticeable ghosting/flicker or more light with more ghosting/flicker............. I was sick of all of those headaches and just grabbed a single chip DLP. biggrin.gif You get the brightness, zero ghosting and zero flicker. cool.gif Thanks to the work done in this thread, I like knowing that not only do I get truly ghost/flicker free 3d with the BenQ, but literally TWO times the light output (560 vs 1100) in 3d vs having gone with the 4810 which I was considering at one point.


Not to mention warm up time, increased ghosting as the lamp ages and no FI in 3d................. I am SO glad not to have to think about the "warm up time" anymore and dont have to worry what my 3d will look like with 500 hours on the lamp (my RS40 got MUCH worse as far as ghosting between 300-400 hours on the lamp). Good riddance to all those headaches!

As the delay on the Red laser projector stretches to infinity, I'm reconsidering a DLP for 3D, too. I just can't keep a resolution. biggrin.gif

You and Zombie got me thinking more about it when you mentioned that the lower contrast of the BenQ doesn't bother you so much in 3D. I had a similar experience when I watched several 3D scenes last night on my LG LM7600 LCD display (passive 3D). It's a set that I've used almost exclusively for 3D editing. The black level and contrast aren't anywhere close to what I get with my Samsung 3D plasma. But the LG is far brighter and ghosts a lot less. So, I popped in Monsters vs Aliens and Avatar and went back and forth between the two sets. Except for the mildly irritating jaggies on the LG (from displaying only half vertical resolution), the LG outperformed the Samsung in every way that matters to me for watching 3D. eek.gif It really surprised me. Except for DLP, the LG also ghosts less than any other display I've seen (at least as long as you stay in the sweet spot). Anyway, if I can find a really good deal on a BenQ W7000, I'll consider it. If there's anyone out there near St. Louis who has one, I'd love to take a peek. Please PM me if you wouldn't mind me coming over some evening.

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post #3322 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 05:19 PM
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And could someone please remind me which glasses are compatible with the 7000.

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post #3323 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yes, we're sure.
Even with a flush mount, it still would not work.

Wow I find that hard to swallow because I have the most standard setup you can get. How in the world do you have to mount this thing then?
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post #3324 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoguy1 View Post

There's been quite a few people on this and other forums that have had positive comments on the 3d performance of the new JVCs. Geoffrey Morrison, in his Sound & Vision review of the HW50, 5020 and X35(RS46) states that while the X35's 3D image is not the best that he has seen, he states: "the lightweight glasses and impressive brightness/contrast made it one of the better 3D experience I've had with a projector". From everything I've read it may not be the best at 3d, but a lot of users certainly seem very happy with the performance.

I really only commented on this subject based on the poster who believes JVC is the best which just isn't going to be true for everyone. Especially when it comes to 3D IMO. My biggest complaints about the JVC would be the brightness and lack of FI in 3D. I may be a bit of an oddball here but I can't watch 2D on an LCOS without FI as camera pans just are not fluid without it. The picture in 3D on any of the projectors isn't going to be as good as it is in 2D so combine all the other issues with poor camera pans and for me it's distracting. Also, unless a huge improvement that JVC needed over last years models was 3D brightness. I just watched The Amazing Spider-Man a couple of weeks ago on my HW50 with an HP screen. This film is dark to begin with but IMO even the Sony could be brighter. On my RS45 it was very dim. How much brightness one considers good is a personal choice. Some people only need minimal brightness but I prefer a plasma type brightness. It's funny that when I lurked over in the TV forums you rarely heard about plasmas being too bright. LCDs however were another story. But in the front projection forum there are many that prefer an image with very little light. Maybe they have overly sensitive eyes or maybe my eyes aren't sensitive enough. smile.gif
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post #3325 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 06:19 PM
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I love JVC projectors for 2D. That being said I can't deal with the ghosting and lack of brightness for 3D. I have gone the 2 projector route with a Benq 1070 for 3D and general some general viewing. If you don't have a problem with RBE just compare a DLP projector on 3D with any JVC. If one is not interested in 3d or views in on rarely the JVC will probably be fine. It all depends on the individual and if ghosting and flicker will bother you on 3d.
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post #3326 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gagorian View Post

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Originally Posted by Yusuf.0088 View Post

I confirm that Sony hw50 has no ghosting with 3D blu-ray and even with HSBS content.
Only time I've seen ghosting is when I was watching Prometeus HSBS (scene on 18th min). Glasses brightness was on "3", I tried to change it to "0" and crosstalk disappeared.
I don't know about your setup but on my 119" HP 2.4 screen I can definately see ghosting on the Sony HW50ES with most (all?) brightness settings. I watched Prometheus 3D yesterday and there were several scenes with ghosting visible even when not looking for it, if you look for ghosting you can find it rather easily. All in all Prometheus still looked rather good, even with some ghosting. I think I'm more annoyed by the slight flicker in bright details. Right in the start of Sammy's adventure with the bright sun and sky, the flicker is very apparent and annoying. Some slight ghosting is visible throughout the film.

I'm just trying to say that I expected worse from Sony regarding ghosting.
I watched Prometeus on light yellow wall in my hotel room (I'm in China now). I'll get home in couple days and I'll try to watch this movie again in my MW screen (I can make it any size). It's about 20 hours on lamp age and if you want, post the scene time with ghosting which you seen. I'll check it and post some screenshots.

Yusuf


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post #3327 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ravex911 View Post

zombie,

Where you still interested in adding the Panny AE8000U to the shootout? I can send you one to test just need an idea on how long you would need it?

That would be great!


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post #3328 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I sent ravex a PM, i'd definitely be interested in adding the Panasonic 8000 to the shoot-out thread. I still have the 5020, so I would do a direct A/B between the Epson and Panasonic.


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post #3329 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 07:46 PM
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Thanks, Jason. I am sure many people are interested in this.


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post #3330 of 9103 Old 01-30-2013, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

As the delay on the Red laser projector stretches to infinity, I'm reconsidering a DLP for 3D, too. I just can't keep a resolution. biggrin.gif

You and Zombie got me thinking more about it when you mentioned that the lower contrast of the BenQ doesn't bother you so much in 3D. I had a similar experience when I watched several 3D scenes last night on my LG LM7600 LCD display (passive 3D). It's a set that I've used almost exclusively for 3D editing. The black level and contrast aren't anywhere close to what I get with my Samsung 3D plasma. But the LG is far brighter and ghosts a lot less. So, I popped in Monsters vs Aliens and Avatar and went back and forth between the two sets. Except for the mildly irritating jaggies on the LG (from displaying only half vertical resolution), the LG outperformed the Samsung in every way that matters to me for watching 3D. eek.gif It really surprised me. Except for DLP, the LG also ghosts less than any other display I've seen (at least as long as you stay in the sweet spot). Anyway, if I can find a really good deal on a BenQ W7000, I'll consider it. If there's anyone out there near St. Louis who has one, I'd love to take a peek. Please PM me if you wouldn't mind me coming over some evening.

See if you can track one down and check it out. I continue to be impressed with the 3d on the 7000 and all the gripes I had with the 40/45 are gone. cool.gif Watched Tahiti and Megamind a few nights ago in 3d, both of which I have seen a few times on either the 40, 45 or both and the overall experience on the 7000 due to zero ghosting, zero flicker and the better motion due to the FI in low made both feel like a new experience to some degree. I still need to calibrate behind the glasses which will make things even better, but I will get to that when I feel up to it.

As far as glasses, I don't know all the compatible models. I am using the TrueDepth and Optoma ZD201 and I like both. To my eyes, the performance is damn near identical. I like the TD better as far as the lenses/style go, but the nice thing about the smaller 201 lenses is they cut out more of the rear room reflections in my room so I end up using these the most. If not for the rear room reflection advantage of the 201s I would just use the TD as they hold sync a bit better it seems and are much cheaper as well. Speaking of which, that is about the only gripe I have with the 7000 for 3d is the glasses don't hold a sync as well as my JVCs. Not a big deal in my setup as I rarely entertain, but if I had people over more and was turning my head to talk (which is when they loose sync) to others the loosing sync thing would get annoying. Something to be aware of if you have people over to watch 3d quite a bit.

Overall though I am glad I bought the 7000 and it has lived up to my high expectations. The 45/7000 is a fantastic 2d/3d combo. cool.gif

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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