Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 113 - AVS Forum
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post #3361 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Why ditching your HP screen ?

I have a 80in Carada CW screen that I got off of craiglist for $25. I did an A/B comparison with my 120in HP screen with each covering around half. The Carada had better color and blacks to me.Plus, I want to prepare myself for brighter 4K projectors later on down the road. Since, I don't watch much 3D, I'll settle for a larger screen for just 2D.

The pictures are not great, and looks different in person of course. But its an example



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post #3362 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jj-34 View Post

HI
Any idea if this JKP Affinity screen material can be obtain somewhere as bulk material to DIY ?
Thks.

You can only purchase the material from an authorized local dealer (or AVScience smile.gif) in specific sizes with frames or tensioned electric roll down models.

There are a few online stores selling the perforated material in bulk. Just search for HD Progressive 1.1 Perf and some hits will pop up.
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post #3363 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Why ditching your HP screen ?

While the HP material is great when you need high gain, like in my position, but if I don't need the extra gain there is no reason to use the screen as there negative things introduced when using this screen material. First off, its retroreflective which makes setup a pain. Like other high gain materials, there is a "sparklie" aspect to the screen. With something closer to 1.0 that issue is reduced to zero and you get more of a "looking through the window" effect from your screen. With the JKP material being the smoothest material without ANY texture, being color neutral, and close to unity gain you're going to get the sharpest most neutral looking images out there.
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post #3364 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jsounds2010 View Post

is there a clear winner of best overall projector?

If your definition of "best overall" inlcudes 3D, FI, brightness, game lag, proprietary image enhancement and you are not adverse to a dynamic iris then I would say the Sony HW50. If your definition of "best overall" is native contrast and sharpness, lens memory and quality, proprietary image enhancement and RF 3D glasses then perhaps one of the JVC projectors. If your definition of "best overall" is heavy on brightess, 3D, RF glasses and you don't mind LCD then consider the Epson. Finally if you are one of the few that can make the Mitsubishi DLP work in your setup and like the look of DLP and want ghost free 3D then consider the Mitsubishi.

My vote also goes to the Sony for overall.
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post #3365 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 08:02 AM
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While we are on the subject of the HP, how do you guys feel about calibration and this screen? Due to the retroreflective nature and how quickly the image changes off axis, are our calibration reports accurate as far as what we are actually seeing from our viewing positions? Coderguy had some interesting thoughts on this in the 7000 thread and I have seen concerns for calibration and the HP in other threads as well (CP and/or lumagen threads).

So my question to the HP users out there who are also calibrated is do you feel confident that your calibration is what you are actually seeing at your viewing position?

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post #3366 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 08:10 AM
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There is definitely some color shift tied in with the screen. The HP 2.8 material's gain rolls off pretty smoothly. There shouldn't be too much of a noticeable difference when viewing slightly to moderately off axis.
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post #3367 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

While we are on the subject of the HP, how do you guys feel about calibration and this screen? Due to the retroreflective nature and how quickly the image changes off axis, are our calibration reports accurate as far as what we are actually seeing from our viewing positions? Coderguy had some interesting thoughts on this in the 7000 thread and I have seen concerns for calibration and the HP in other threads as well (CP and/or lumagen threads).

So my question to the HP users out there who are also calibrated is do you feel confident that your calibration is what you are actually seeing at your viewing position?
This is what I hear from non HP screen owners, but the color shifts from different seating distances. I did have an easier time with my other screen with the W7000 than the HP screen.
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post #3368 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 08:11 AM
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With the JKP material being the smoothest material without ANY texture, being color neutral, and close to unity gain you're going to get the sharpest most neutral looking images out there.

I've been entertaining the idea of getting a JKP 1.1 gain screen myself. smile.gif

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post #3369 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

This is what I hear from non HP screen owners, but the color shifts from different seating distances. I did have an easier time with my other screen with the W7000 than the HP screen.

Easier time as far as calibration?

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post #3370 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Easier time as far as calibration?
getting colors correct, plus I am not sure if the calibration from my seating is the same. Another thing is that I'm starting to notice the screen texture, which sucks.
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post #3371 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

getting colors correct, plus I am not sure if the calibration from my seating is the same. Another thing is that I'm starting to notice the screen texture, which sucks.

That is my concern as well. Is my calibration report representative of my seated viewing experience with the HP?

I can certainly see the HP screen texture if I look in the right type of scene such as a solid bright blue sky that is panning (just like any screen I have owned), but I dont personally find it bothersome since these type of scenes dont happen all that often and most other scenes I cant see the texture at all. However, if screen texture is bothering you I would have to think the snowmatte or JKP 1.1 would be better here as Mark has mentioned so many times (of course the compromise will be a dimmer image so its not all good obviously).

Just out of curiosity, what would be considered the better screen between the JKP 1.1 and Snowmatte 100? Probably a matter of opinion depending on who you ask, but just curious if there is some sort of general consensus?

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post #3372 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 08:54 AM
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I might have chosen JKP Affinity 1.1 over SnomaT based on cost considerations alone but I have a Stewart frame and Da-lite won't make it to fit the Stewart and I ain't gonna do it myself.

That's said, the low gain fabrics being considered here are all very good. There is no absolute clear winner, the JKP being a little less uniform in brightness that the Stewart and the Stewart not being as smooth as the JKP. But they are both excellent.

I always seem to be bashing HP when in fact I have ordered a cheap HP pull down to get my 3D brightness up. But for 2D, no way will I use it. It just doesn't dissapear or have the realism of the others. What.

You can be a blinded by the light viewer. Its OK. Some people like their picture really bright or insist on using a screen that their projector can not adequately light with a near unity gain fabric. Its OK, non sophisticated viewers, yea I guess I am insulting you, not really smile.gif, like bright. Lokking at two screens, almost all will choose the brighter one as being better.

And all this banter about color calibration. Calibrate your projector and do it periodically, and things will be fine. Your calibration compensates for the screen color shifts. And don't wory if your JVC dioesn't have fully saturated rec 709 green. It just doesn make all that much different. calibrate at 75% sat or do a multipoint. The error makes little difference.

Let me tell you something. You can calibrate until your blue but you probably will not see the colors as they were intended by the Director to be seen. The film was not shot with Rec 709 limitations in mind. It was shot perhaps with the DCI color space in mind. And its was shot on film or with digitally whuch records a much wider color space than even DCI. In the future we will be using color spaces twice as wide as DCI. Your colors are very very limited with Rec 709. What real difference does in make if green id not fully saturated.



And then you have your eyes. As you age, and hopefully you will continue to age, your lens in your eyes become yellow filters. You don't know it, you aren't aware of it. I just found out. I thought I saw color fine. But i just had a glass lens put into my right out ( a catarac procedure). Man are the colors different in that eye. And they are right. My old eye is wrong, everything is viewed through a yellow filter with that eye. Others who have had similar surgery confirm this. Calibration can not take into account your set of eyes. Its based on what a meter reads and not your eyes. Yea you. Pathetic chassing 1 de error when you eyes at your age are acting light filters and cheating you. So many methods of calculating de too.

This whole sport has gotten rediculous. Yes to me, a 1.0 gain or so smooth scren will give you a degree of realism not obtainable with an HP screen. But you will give up other things such as goung really big.

craig. Go with the Da-lite JKP. It will improve your system and you will adapt to the lower brightness. You will improve things. Its not a war. You boys have your HPs and like them . It does what you want. Turn them loudspeakers up. smile.gif

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post #3373 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

That is my concern as well. Is my calibration report representative of my seated viewing experience with the HP?

I can certainly see the HP screen texture if I look in the right type of scene such as a solid bright blue sky that is panning (just like any screen I have owned), but I dont personally find it bothersome since these type of scenes dont happen all that often and most other scenes I cant see the texture at all. However, if screen texture is bothering you I would have to think the snowmatte or JKP 1.1 would be better here as Mark has mentioned so many times (of course the compromise will be a dimmer image so its not all good obviously).

Just out of curiosity, what would be considered the better screen between the JKP 1.1 and Snowmatte 100? Probably a matter of opinion depending on who you ask, but just curious if there is some sort of general consensus?
I'm going to get samples of both and put them on my carada screen to choose the better material
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post #3374 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 09:02 AM
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Thanks Mark. tongue.gif

If the calibration compensates for the screen color shift then what you are saying is I am worrying for nothing, right? smile.gif

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post #3375 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I'm going to get samples of both and put them on my carada screen to choose the better material

Report back as I am curious what you think. How do you like your Carada by the way? I owned 3 of them (either 2 CCW and a BW or the other way around) and due to a characteristic vertical screen texture/pattern that I could see, which I have literally not seen anyone else mention so I am a nutcase apparently, I was not happy with any of them and they all went back. Like I said though, I am obviously some sort of weirdo since I literally have not seen anyone else mention what I noticed and people obviously love the Carada screens in general. The fact that I saw it on all 3 of the screens would have to rule out a bad sample though, so apparently it was just something that I was sensitive to that does not bother the vast majority.

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post #3376 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks Mark. tongue.gif

If the calibration compensates for the screen color shift then what you are saying is I am worrying for nothing, right? smile.gif
I must don't understand how it would be the same. If the color shifts from different angles, how can you set the meter where my viewing distance is at? Gain changes so rapidly, that I don't know if I'm seeing what the meter is reading. It still looks good but I am just not sure
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post #3377 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks Mark. tongue.gif

If the calibration compensates for the screen color shift then what you are saying is I am worrying for nothing, right? smile.gif
I must don't understand how it would be the same. If the color shifts from different angles, how can you set the meter where my viewing distance is at? Gain changes so rapidly, that I don't know if I'm seeing what the meter is reading. It still looks good but I am just not sure
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post #3378 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I must don't understand how it would be the same. If the color shifts from different angles, how can you set the meter where my viewing distance is at? Gain changes so rapidly, that I don't know if I'm seeing what the meter is reading. It still looks good but I am just not sure


Exactly......****.........I am confused and unsure if what I am seeing is actually representative of the calibration report which is frustrating. I think I am going to just sell ALL this ****.......and the house as well and move back to the mountains and start snowboarding again! I think I need a new hobby.........open to suggestions. biggrin.gif

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post #3379 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Exactly......****.........I am confused and unsure if what I am seeing is actually representative of the calibration report which is frustrating. I think I am going to just sell ALL this ****.......and the house as well and move back to the mountains and start snowboarding again! I think I need a new hobby.........open to suggestions. biggrin.gif
I need a free hobby
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post #3380 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I owned 3 of them (either 2 CCW and a BW or the other way around) and due to a characteristic vertical screen texture/pattern that I could see, which I have literally not seen anyone else mention so I am a nutcase apparently, I was not happy with any of them and they all went back.

 

I saw this in all of the screen replacements they sent me while I was trying to get a screen without creases (different issue). I talked to them and he pronounced the stripes as being inherent to the material. They don't jump out at you although they are rather obvious once you see them... based on the projected image.

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post #3381 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I saw this in all of the screen replacements they sent me while I was trying to get a screen without creases (different issue). I talked to them and he pronounced the stripes as being inherent to the material. They don't jump out at you although they are rather obvious once you see them... based on the projected image.

I appreciate you posting this as I thought I might have been crazy all these years. Have you seen anyone else mention this? When I found this issue and then kept seeing it on the replacements, I could not find another report of what I was seeing and thought it was odd since it seemed obvious enough to me and figured at least some others on here with a critical eye toward this type of thing would have seen it as well.

The creases were also an issue for me and I just chalked it up to the way they ship the material which back then (dont know if this has changed) was not in any sort of protective tubing (like Stewart does for example) which allowed the frame pieces to push against the material and no doubt increase the chances or severity of creases. The longest I owned any of the 3 was about 2 weeks or so as I remember and the creases never fully went away.
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I need a free hobby

You said it! Trying to work a HT hobby on a landscapers income all these years has been challenging! tongue.gif

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post #3382 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post


I appreciate you posting this as I thought I might have been crazy all these years. Have you seen anyone else mention this? When I found this issue and then kept seeing it on the replacements, I could not find another report of what I was seeing and thought it was odd since it seemed obvious enough to me and figured at least some others on here with a critical eye toward this type of thing would have seen it as well.

The creases were also an issue for me and I just chalked it up to the way they ship the material which back then (dont know if this has changed) was not in any sort of protective tubing (like Stewart does for example) which allowed the frame pieces to push against the material and no doubt increase the chances or severity of creases. The longest I owned any of the 3 was about 2 weeks or so as I remember and the creases never fully went away.

 

I never saw it mentioned before I ran across it and that's why I asked them about it. As a company they went beyond the call of duty. The screen material I received had creases (a couple) which looked like worm impressions for lack of a better description. Talking with them (I emailed various images) they instantly offered to send me new material and it had them too. This time one of the guys said he would personally inspect the material and roll it up to ensure it was good to go. Well unfortunately it had them as well and talking with them he stated... I'm 100% sure they will disappear (stretch out) over time. Also, he suggested I could do the old hair dyer trick. 

 

He seemed so positive that I countered with I'm not comfortable going beyond my 30-day return period but if you refund my money I'll gladly pay if/when they do. He took me up on the offer and said let's wait 3-4 months (I can't remember the exact period of time). I waited numerous months of which they got a little better but never disappeared and at that point I wanted to resolve what screen I would be using so I shipped it back to them... on their nickle.

 

My theory is it's in the rolling. If the material isn't rolled perfectly smooth/tight creases (not folds rather puckers) form. Or perhaps the varying thicknesses of the material leans itself into forming puckers. Regarding the vertical stripes they appear similar to my old JVC G150 stripes... watch a hockey game and end up staring at the stripes. :)

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post #3383 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 11:26 AM
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Generally a screen will shift colors somewhat unless it is a white ref quality 1.0 gain. The generic specific color shift can be calibrated out. You can only calibrate from one spot. S generally one calibrates from the sweet spot but of course one has to angle the meter so the meter doesn't block the screen. There is a reason the pros use a 1.0 gain like the Snomatt ior a slight gain 1.1 like the JKP. It eliminates positional bias.


More later. I have to leave for a post op eye exam.

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post #3384 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I must don't understand how it would be the same. If the color shifts from different angles, how can you set the meter where my viewing distance is at? Gain changes so rapidly, that I don't know if I'm seeing what the meter is reading. It still looks good but I am just not sure

I think there is more to it possibly than just the angle the meter reads as well, I think the material on the HP screen might be giving the C6/D3 some fits with reading RED, but who knows for sure.
I'll know after I compare three different calibrations, at the lens, at the screen with neutral white, and at the HP screen.


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post #3385 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Howdy guys,
I just joined AVS after reading through this thread. I've been sick the last few days, and I've spent the better part of my free time reading through every post in this shootout. All I can say is...wow. My brain is full of lumens, convergence, crosstalk, foot-lamberts, gamma, ghosting, gray scale, latency, DLP, LCD, LCOS, & SXRD. I certainly know more about projectors than before. However, the purpose of my original visit to AVS was to glean some insight towards what projector deserves my hard earned cash right now. Instead, I've found the "best" seems to have a lot to do with a user's opinion and preference to one technology over another.
Zombie10k's data has been informative and thorough without question. However, his posts on some pages, have been few and far between. Is this shootout complete? Zombie10k, will your findings be compiled at some point and your data placed in one spot, i.e., at the beginning of this thread? Lastly, is there a clear winner of best overall projector?
Thanks for all the work. wink.gif

Hi, i'm working on compiling all the summaries on the first page. A kind AVS member volunteered his Panasonic 8000 which i'll add soon to the mini-shootout.

send me a PM and tell me about your room where you're installing the projector.
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post #3386 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 01:03 PM
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Charles,

You and I had extremely similar experiences. Carada bent over backwards for me as well and I cant say enough good about how awesome their customer service was. They also personally inspected the second piece of screen material for me and it was as it should have been, but the issues I noticed were still there. After it was all said and done, they encouraged me to give them another shot in the future if I was up to it and I did, but this time with the other white material (I either got the CCW or BW the first time, cant remember now) as I was hopeful what I saw was just due to that particular sceen. Unfortunately the other white material showed the same creases/vertical pattern and it went back as well which Carada was once again very easy to deal with. I was even given the same advice as you up to and including the hair dryer trick. Both of my Stewart screens and my HP stetched out perfectly right from the start with no creases which I have to think is at least in part due to the better packaging of the material. Good to know I am not the only one who noticed this though and thanks for posting. smile.gif

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post #3387 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Please keep us updated. Da-Lite is currently making my replacement HCHP screen as we speak. My dealer gave them explicit instructions to double check for uniformity and texture/line issues on my screen. We'll see. I'm going to stay a skeptic until I see the replacement for myself.
Well Severtson has the WORST customer service I've experienced. Multiple attempts to contact the company for screen samples have been fruitless, I finally got a hold of a guy who promised to send samples which never arrived and he no longer answers the phone. I finally found a local dealer who had some samples for me try, unfortunatly the only sample of interest was the SeVision 3D GX, and stellar white 1.3, which I really need the 2.2 for proper comparison. The SeVision is a nice material, probably better than Firehawk if thats what your going for because of the added brightness, but it's every bit as sparkly as the Firehawk. The Stellar White 1.3 is a nice material, there is a slight bit of sparkle, but I could get used to it. I'm betting the 2.2 however will have much more sparkle.

I'm still trying to get someone to send a stellar white 2.2 sample, but my hopes aren't high. So far I'm guessing I'll be sticking to hi power.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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post #3388 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by plissken99 View Post

Well Severtson has the WORST customer service I've experienced. Multiple attempts to contact the company for screen samples have been fruitless, I finally got a hold of a guy who promised to send samples which never arrived and he no longer answers the phone. I finally found a local dealer who had some samples for me try, unfortunatly the only sample of interest was the SeVision 3D GX, and stellar white 1.3, which I really need the 2.2 for proper comparison. The SeVision is a nice material, probably better than Firehawk if thats what your going for because of the added brightness, but it's every bit as sparkly as the Firehawk. The Stellar White 1.3 is a nice material, there is a slight bit of sparkle, but I could get used to it. I'm betting the 2.2 however will have much more sparkle.

I'm still trying to get someone to send a stellar white 2.2 sample, but my hopes aren't high. So far I'm guessing I'll be sticking to hi power.

Sorry to hear you have not had luck getting samples, but I just wanted to add that my experience with Severtson was just the opposite and I found their customer service up there with the best. My first screen was a Severtson HC grey years ago and the original piece of screen material they sent had an obvious manufacturer flaw that could easily be seen under normal viewing from my couch. I called up and they had me a new piece of material out the door ASAP. Cant ask for more than that and they were great to deal with. Maybe something has changed over the years since I have dealt with them, but I was very impressed with the service I received.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #3389 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 03:47 PM
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You can only purchase the material from an authorized local dealer (or AVScience smile.gif) in specific sizes with frames or tensioned electric roll down models.

There are a few online stores selling the perforated material in bulk. Just search for HD Progressive 1.1 Perf and some hits will pop up.
As a matter of fact I am in contact with one US based vendor even willing to ship to France, but not the JKP fabric, seems to be exclusiv to Da-Lite vendors.
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post #3390 of 8917 Old 02-01-2013, 04:08 PM
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As a matter of fact I am in contact with one US based vendor even willing to ship to France, but not the JKP fabric, seems to be exclusiv to Da-Lite vendors.

The JKP Affinity material is made by Da-Lite, that's why.
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