Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 115 - AVS Forum
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post #3421 of 9103 Old 02-03-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

Guys, regarding RBE in 2D, I got the W1070 few days ago and the RBE was quite apparent. I saw it quite often watching Hugo but not as bad as the H9500 I had before. However, because the picture was so bright on my 120" screen even with Cinema mode and Smart eco, I went to Bestbuy to get the ND4 filter. Oh boy, the RBE was just about gone !! I can't believe it. I'd say the RBE got cut by > 85%. I can really enjoy watching movies now without getting distracted. Coderguy mentioned in the past the RBE was due to brightness and he was right !! For you guys who are RBE sensitive, give ND filters a try.

ND filters can hide a multitude of sins. I've been using them for years with great success.

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post #3422 of 9103 Old 02-03-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

this is pretty cool, a custom calibrated VW1000 by Cine4home.

http://cine4home.de/knowhow/Cine4Home_Edition_Sony_VW1000/Sony_VPL_VW1000-C4HEd.htm

this is the first review that discusses the native contrast.



Yes, they measurred more off them - the native was between 7000:1 - 18000:1 and the iris gave approx. a 3 times factor ( with "Realistic" dynamic contrast at normal movie playback ).

Light output uncalibrated : 1900 - 2100 lumen and calibrated arround 1600 - 1700 lumen

And they have the extern software ( from Sony ) to calibrate the colors to the videonorm - very cool.gif

A very interesting thing is, that they say, that you cant calibrate and measure 3D just tru the glasses ( but they dont say how THEY do it then , probably a business secret frown.gif )
from the site :

"
The actual measurement is made ​​out to be very difficult: Easy to measure through the lens works because of the pulsed method and the loss of light is not accurate, most sensors give in this situation only to fantasy values​​. It is therefore important to determine the appropriate method using special target tones and subsequently to calibrate the calibration without glasses in the optical path."



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post #3423 of 9103 Old 02-03-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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The calibrations I do behind the glasses look much better than before, so there's no doubt to the benefit of a simple color calibration behind the glasses.

I'm sure it gets more complicated if we examine it under a microscope, but these are changes anyone is going to be able to see. 3D is more convincing when the colors look right. Some of these projector/glasses combos are off a by a mile.


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post #3424 of 9103 Old 02-03-2013, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The calibrations I do behind the glasses look much better than before, so there's no doubt to the benefit of a simple color calibration behind the glasses.

I'm sure it gets more complicated if we examine it under a microscope, but these are changes anyone is going to be able to see. 3D is more convincing when the colors look right. Some of these projector/glasses combos are off a by a mile.


I do believe you, but Im curious to how they did calibrate the 3D without the glasses in front off them - it would make things much easyer ( I have a hard time getting glasses properly in front of the instrument redface.gif )

BTW. Jason, could you send me the 3D test patterns you use ( especially that pattern with the L and R smile.gif ) ? I want to try and see how it looks tongue.gif


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post #3425 of 9103 Old 02-03-2013, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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i'm curious as well, i'm sure it's going to look excellent once they apply their custom settings. What could be better than a Cine4home calibrated projector? smile.gif


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post #3426 of 9103 Old 02-04-2013, 01:40 AM
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What if they simply use 2D targets in 3D mode, thus projecting the same image left and right ?
Am I saying something stupid ?
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post #3427 of 9103 Old 02-04-2013, 03:56 AM
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zombie, maybe it was already discussed. I've stumbled upon this TRUDE universal 3D emitter: http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/MitsubishiHC9000/Trude/Trude_3DSender.htm
It is confirmed to work with Sony HW series and Mitsubishi HC9000/HC5. There are reports of better synchro stability and less light loss behind the same glasses. It is fully customizable with custom refresh rates, timings etc. I wasn't able to find report on improved cross-talk performance.
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post #3428 of 9103 Old 02-04-2013, 12:33 PM
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I definitely agree with them about light in regards to 3D. Just measuring through the glasses is not going to be accurate because the meter is averaging the data and depending on the condition during the average the light measured isn't going to represent what you see with your eyes (which shouldn't see the black frames in between). I've done my initial rough calibration for 3D through the glasses and it turns out pretty well. I've been thinking about different ways to do it though and I'm still mulling it over. Maybe an offset for the glasses so you can measure without them would be one way. I am going to talk with the Spectracal guys and see if they have any ideas.

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post #3429 of 9103 Old 02-04-2013, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I definitely agree with them about light in regards to 3D. Just measuring through the glasses is not going to be accurate because the meter is averaging the data and depending on the condition during the average the light measured isn't going to represent what you see with your eyes (which shouldn't see the black frames in between). I've done my initial rough calibration for 3D through the glasses and it turns out pretty well. I've been thinking about different ways to do it though and I'm still mulling it over. Maybe an offset for the glasses so you can measure without them would be one way. I am going to talk with the Spectracal guys and see if they have any ideas.

Hi Kris,

The recommended way is to either profile your colorimeter without the glasses to your spectro through the glasses, and then use the colorimeter without the glasses for the actual calibration, or if you don't have a spectro/meter combo to profile your meter without the glasses (field) to your meter with the glasses (reference), so that again you can do the calibration without the glasses to avoid interference from the shutters, especially when reading low light patterns like dark blue or the low end of the greyscale.

What I do as well is I set the LLH for the meters with the threshold to a very high value during the profiling, that way each offset will be the result of an averaging and should limit the influence of the shutters during the profiling. For example, for the i1pro, enable LLH and instead of using a threshold of 10cd/m2, use a threshold of 150. That way, LLH will be active even when measuring 100% white, not only when measuring the darkest patterns, and each offset for each color will be averaging the max number of samples (I think it's 30 for the i1pro/i1pro2).

This trick of using LLH with a very high threshold is good even when profiling your meters for 2D, it just gives the profile an extra bit of accuracy.

Of course only do this during the profiling, after that restore the LLH threshold to its normal value (or disable it) otherwise the calibration will be super slow.

One last trick when profiling is to make sure you open the iris to the max and switch to high lamp. Even if you lower your iris / switch to low lamp during calibration, this will give optimum accuracy to the profile when reading through the glasses, otherwise it can struggle with blue/magenta.

This produces excellent results, and very repeatable/accurate, in both 2D and 3D (well, with different profiles of course!)
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post #3430 of 9103 Old 02-04-2013, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I definitely agree with them about light in regards to 3D. Just measuring through the glasses is not going to be accurate because the meter is averaging the data and depending on the condition during the average the light measured isn't going to represent what you see with your eyes (which shouldn't see the black frames in between). I've done my initial rough calibration for 3D through the glasses and it turns out pretty well. I've been thinking about different ways to do it though and I'm still mulling it over. Maybe an offset for the glasses so you can measure without them would be one way. I am going to talk with the Spectracal guys and see if they have any ideas.

But your eyes also average the light. After all, a common way to vary the brightness of a LED is just to vary its duty cycle. One cannot perceive that it cycles on and off, if the repetition rate is great enough.
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post #3431 of 9103 Old 02-04-2013, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I definitely agree with them about light in regards to 3D. Just measuring through the glasses is not going to be accurate because the meter is averaging the data and depending on the condition during the average the light measured isn't going to represent what you see with your eyes (which shouldn't see the black frames in between). I've done my initial rough calibration for 3D through the glasses and it turns out pretty well. I've been thinking about different ways to do it though and I'm still mulling it over. Maybe an offset for the glasses so you can measure without them would be one way. I am going to talk with the Spectracal guys and see if they have any ideas.
Hmmm, I'll definitely be interested in what they have to say. Please keep us posted!
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post #3432 of 9103 Old 02-04-2013, 10:34 PM
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hometheater.com review of hw50 is out. Highest ever score for a projector.
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post #3433 of 9103 Old 02-05-2013, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Hmmm, I'll definitely be interested in what they have to say. Please keep us posted!

The advice I gave above re profiling is also the official Spectracal advice to calibrate 3D.

The LLH tips are mine though:).
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post #3434 of 9103 Old 02-05-2013, 05:59 AM
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I'm eagarly awaiting Zombie's review on these babies... biggrin.gif:p:D

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/04/smi-eye-tracking-3d-glasses/

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post #3435 of 9103 Old 02-05-2013, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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The projector party isn't over yet... cool.gif

thanks to Ravex911 for offering to send in his new Panasonic 8000 for review... very much appreciated!

Some folks have been waiting to see a good comparison between the Epson 5020 and the Panasonic 8000. The battle of the Epson LCD panel's starts soon.

Pansonic_Epson.jpg



Digital storage fans - I've had some issues with 3D BD ISO's and DTS-MA audio tracks on my HiMedia 900B and Micca EP950 (same hardware). I've read some positive reviews about the 'Mediator' and decided to try one out.

No it's not a home theater George Forman Grill. Yes it's the strangest looking piece of hardware in my setup. Yes it plays 3D BD ISO with DTS-MA with no issues. cool.gif

More info on this later when I get some time to go through the settings. In it's raw form, I played back 15 random 3D movies, mostly with DTS-MA tracks and had good luck streaming via SMB from my new 18TB storage array. Very promising so far.

mediator.jpg

mediator1.jpg

fileserver.jpg


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post #3436 of 9103 Old 02-05-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

No it's not a home theater George Forman Grill. Yes it's the strangest looking piece of hardware in my setup. mediator.jpg

now I know what infocus did with their leftover IN8x projector cases.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #3437 of 9103 Old 02-05-2013, 08:15 PM
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lol they're a hell of a lot larger than that tongue.gif

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post #3438 of 9103 Old 02-05-2013, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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if it works as expected, I'll replace it with 600x which is smaller and more 'normal' looking. I don't need the internal HD space.

mediator2.jpg

I don't actually mind what it look it like.. it just needs to work. I really like the 'direct' play which makes it very easy to jump from movie to movie without being held prisoner by the BD JAVA menus / intros.


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post #3439 of 9103 Old 02-05-2013, 11:36 PM
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Based on all the great advice from this site and specifically this extremely comprehensive shoot out from Jason, I put in my order with Mike at AVS for the Sony HW50. I'm eagerly awaiting it's arrival. In the meantime, I have a couple questions for you guys.

I have an old screen that I purchased with my Sanyo PLV-70 many years ago. It's a DaLite but I don't know anything else about it. Is there a way I can determine the gain and/or the finish?

I have access to an i1 Display by xrite. It's the previous model version. Will this be an effective tool for calibrating the Sony? Or do I need to invest in a newer product? Also can someone point me towards some good DIY calibrating guides?

Thanks again guys. You've all been extremely helpful. wink.gif
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post #3440 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 01:18 AM
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I expect that after zombie's report there will be lots of people ditching their Epsons for Panasonic 8000.
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post #3441 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

I expect that after zombie's report there will be lots of people ditching their Epsons for Panasonic 8000.

Just my opinion, but...

That is likely a misguided expectation. wink.gif

Even though these units share many things in common they offer different visual experiences and the area's where the Epson excels seem to currently be the more popular aspects over-all (in the current lumen crazed market).

Jason

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post #3442 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Just my opinion, but...

That is likely a misguided expectation. wink.gif

Even though these units share many things in common they offer different visual experiences and the area's where the Epson excels seem to currently be the more popular aspects over-all (in the current lumen crazed market).

Jason

you would be correct. At least from what I am seeing in the first few hours of direct A/B. I was hoping there was a factory setting with 1/2 decent color, but this particular copy is off by a mile. It needs a serious calibration right out of the box.

This is 1 time I fully agree with Art.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/projectors/pt-ae8000_vs_hc5020/bottomline.php

I thought something was wrong at first, checking HDMI levels, brightness settings, etc.. but it appears the Epson has a noticeable and obvious advantage here with overall contrast / black floor. I'm reserving any judgement until I do a full calibration on it.



On a similar topic - since I blacked out my ceiling and floor, neither the Epson or the Panasonic satisfies my preference for good contrast / black floor.

I see a lot of discussion about DI and how it compensates for lower native contrast. This just doesn't work in with my setup. I have a large, very bright HP screen with a pitch black room. There is only so much the iris can do with a low light scene. The Dark Knight Rises is a perfect BD to test this.

The HW50, 5020 and Panasonic 8000 look relatively 'flat' compared to the JVC RS55 @ -11 in these low light scenes. The JVC PQ jumps off the screen with an excellent black floor and bright whites at the same time.

some folks like to rag on JVC for various reasons (i'm one of them for 3D) but for my particular setup, none of these projectors I've seen this year can touch the 2D PQ of my 'old' RS55 + e-shift1. That includes the RS4810 since I don't really like what they did with e-shift2.

I do watch a lot of stage concerts, dark movies, sci-fi, etc and the JVC brings them to life on this big HP. High native contrast rules my particular setup and it looks amazing.


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post #3443 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

you would be correct. At least from what I am seeing in the first few hours of direct A/B. I was hoping there was a factory setting with 1/2 decent color, but this particular copy is off by a mile. It needs a serious calibration right out of the box.

This is 1 time I fully agree with Art.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/projectors/pt-ae8000_vs_hc5020/bottomline.php

I thought something was wrong at first, checking HDMI levels, brightness settings, etc.. but it appears the Epson has a noticeable and obvious advantage here with overall contrast / black floor. I'm reserving any judgement until I do a full calibration on it.



On a similar topic - since I blacked out my ceiling and floor, neither the Epson or the Panasonic satisfies my preference for good contrast / black floor.

I see a lot of discussion about DI and how it compensates for lower native contrast. This just doesn't work in with my setup. I have a large, very bright HP screen with a pitch black room. There is only so much the iris can do with a low light scene. The Dark Knight Rises is a perfect BD to test this.

The HW50, 5020 and Panasonic 8000 look relatively 'flat' compared to the JVC RS55 @ -11 in these low light scenes. The JVC PQ jumps off the screen with an excellent black floor and bright whites at the same time.

some folks like to rag on JVC for various reasons (i'm one of them for 3D) but for my particular setup, none of these projectors I've seen this year can touch the 2D PQ of my 'old' RS55 + e-shift1. That includes the RS4810 since I don't really like what they did with e-shift2.

I do watch a lot of stage concerts, dark movies, sci-fi, etc and the JVC brings them to life on this big HP. High native contrast rules my particular setup and it looks amazing.

It is amazing what a good room can do for your image, with the right projector.

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post #3444 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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It is amazing what a good room can do for your image, with the right projector.

I wasn't expecting it to be this substantial, but it is. Without a light treated room, folks are really missing out on what the JVC is capable of. It starts distancing itself very quickly from the other models.


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post #3445 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 08:18 AM
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if it works as expected, I'll replace it with 600x which is smaller and more 'normal' looking. I don't need the internal HD space.

mediator2.jpg

I don't actually mind what it look it like.. it just needs to work. I really like the 'direct' play which makes it very easy to jump from movie to movie without being held prisoner by the BD JAVA menus / intros.

I use that player since 3 months now and it is very good and reliable...

Be sure to subscribe to the beta group as the lastest beta version add many things to the table like true 23.978fps in 2D and 3D smile.gif
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post #3446 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

if it works as expected, I'll replace it with 600x which is smaller and more 'normal' looking. I don't need the internal HD space.

mediator2.jpg

I don't actually mind what it look it like.. it just needs to work. I really like the 'direct' play which makes it very easy to jump from movie to movie without being held prisoner by the BD JAVA menus / intros.

Really looking forward to any additional thoughts you have on this, Jason. I gave away a couple of PCs lately, including a HTPC in a bedroom. I might want to replace it with one of these.

Joe Clark

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post #3447 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 10:46 AM
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Probably missed it, but what's the name/model of that device? Is it 600x? Who makes it?

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post #3448 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 10:58 AM
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post #3449 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 11:10 AM
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Jason,

Do you know if the 600x can play back S3D m2ts and mp4 files?

Anyway, I just bought one. For the price, it's worth playing around with. I'll link it to my Unraid servers and try out the jukebox functionality.

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post #3450 of 9103 Old 02-06-2013, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Jason,

Do you know if the 600x can play back S3D m2ts and mp4 files?

Anyway, I just bought one. For the price, it's worth playing around with. I'll link it to my Unraid servers and try out the jukebox functionality.

I'm not sure, I only have 3D BD ISO's to test. Let me know how it works for you when you get.

@ rick - thanks for the heads up on the beta, I'm going to sign up an test the 3D framerate that never got fixed on the Micca 950 / Himedia 900B. The only thing I don't like it is the Mediator remote control, I much prefer the Mica 950 style.


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