Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 116 - AVS Forum
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post #3451 of 9875 Old 02-06-2013, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Mede8er MED600x3D

Thanks!
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post #3452 of 9875 Old 02-07-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The projector party isn't over yet... cool.gif

thanks to Ravex911 for offering to send in his new Panasonic 8000 for review... very much appreciated!

Some folks have been waiting to see a good comparison between the Epson 5020 and the Panasonic 8000. The battle of the Epson LCD panel's starts soon.

Pansonic_Epson.jpg



Digital storage fans - I've had some issues with 3D BD ISO's and DTS-MA audio tracks on my HiMedia 900B and Micca EP950 (same hardware). I've read some positive reviews about the 'Mediator' and decided to try one out.

No it's not a home theater George Forman Grill. Yes it's the strangest looking piece of hardware in my setup. Yes it plays 3D BD ISO with DTS-MA with no issues. cool.gif

More info on this later when I get some time to go through the settings. In it's raw form, I played back 15 random 3D movies, mostly with DTS-MA tracks and had good luck streaming via SMB from my new 18TB storage array. Very promising so far.

mediator.jpg

mediator1.jpg

fileserver.jpg

Jason that photo above with the white Epson......is that a reflection that makes it look as if no lens is on it??
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post #3453 of 9875 Old 02-07-2013, 01:32 PM
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Ron,

The Epson has a motorized lens cover (which you likely know).

* and I would venture to guess it is not a dummy sample with no innards, hehe. wink.gif

** Oh and yes I know you were not asking me (a different Jason).

Jason
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post #3454 of 9875 Old 02-07-2013, 02:11 PM
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I'm desperate to find a USED RS55 with very good focus and very good out of the box convergence. Trying to find one has been a pain in the rear. I wish eshift 2 was as good as eshift 1.mad.gif

My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #3455 of 9875 Old 02-07-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

I'm desperate to find a USED RS55 with very good focus and very good out of the box convergence. Trying to find one has been a pain in the rear. I wish eshift 2 was as good as eshift 1.mad.gif

You need to look at the refurbished one JVC themselves has on eBay that includes the 2 years manufacturers warranty.

Mike
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post #3456 of 9875 Old 02-07-2013, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

I'm desperate to find a USED RS55 with very good focus and very good out of the box convergence. Trying to find one has been a pain in the rear. I wish eshift 2 was as good as eshift 1.mad.gif
Why isn't eshift2 as good as eshift1? Because zombie says so? No offense to zombie, but that's one man's opinion. Even if you personally thought eshift1 was indeed better (which is a tough call based on a few internet screen shots), I'm sure the difference at your seated position would be subtle at best. And zombie even said himself that there are some settings that allow eshift2 to look very, very similar to eshift1.

I don't know, it just seems silly to me to be willing to pay top dollar for a used RS55 when you can get a brand new RS4810 for so much less. But hey, it's your money.
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post #3457 of 9875 Old 02-07-2013, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Why isn't eshift2 as good as eshift1? Because zombie says so? No offense to zombie, but that's one man's opinion. Even if you personally thought eshift1 was indeed better (which is a tough call based on a few internet screen shots), I'm sure the difference at your seated position would be subtle at best. And zombie even said himself that there are some settings that allow eshift2 to look very, very similar to eshift1.

I don't know, it just seems silly to me to be willing to pay top dollar for a used RS55 when you can get a brand new RS4810 for so much less. But hey, it's your money.

I don't think he's looking to pay top dollar, there's been some well priced, lightly used X70/RS55's in the market. More importantly, he's looking for a cherry picked model. One with excellent convergence and focus. Some people will pay a premium for golden sample. They do exist, but there's a bit of luck involved in getting one.

Sample variances can make a difference in the overall PQ. The perfect sample imo has excellent convergence, focus and consistent color and gray field uniformity.


regarding e-shift 1 and 2, several other owners have stated a preference for e-shift 1. Something has changed as I can't quite match the natural appearance of the original e-shift process. How this translates to a difference in PQ, I can't put a number on it. But I do have a preference for the original e-shift process after seeing them side by side. Most folks are going to like both processes, others will prefer RC, etc. It's good to have options.

e-shift2.jpg

e-shift4.jpg
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post #3458 of 9875 Old 02-07-2013, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

e-shift4.jpg
The text above looks superior. Which one is it?
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post #3459 of 9875 Old 02-07-2013, 11:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

The text above looks superior? Which one is it?

it's the older model RS55. There are no menu settings changes that will make it look the same. The e-shift sensor is definitely different this year, so perhaps that might explain the difference.
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post #3460 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Why isn't eshift2 as good as eshift1? Because zombie says so? No offense to zombie, but that's one man's opinion. Even if you personally thought eshift1 was indeed better (which is a tough call based on a few internet screen shots), I'm sure the difference at your seated position would be subtle at best. And zombie even said himself that there are some settings that allow eshift2 to look very, very similar to eshift1.

I don't know, it just seems silly to me to be willing to pay top dollar for a used RS55 when you can get a brand new RS4810 for so much less. But hey, it's your money.

In Jason I trust.

As I can't see these projectors in person, I turn to the one who's opinion I respect most. Those screenshots say it all IMO.

I would rather buy a used 55 that I know has excellent out of the box convergence and focus and pay a premium for it than buy a 4810 new. You may consider it silly but I don't.

I'm tired of having projectors with only fair convergence and focus.

Since I have only 3 to 5 years left, I want to enjoy myself and the 55 for 2D is the projector that will make it happen.

Tom

My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #3461 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

You need to look at the refurbished one JVC themselves has on eBay that includes the 2 years manufacturers warranty.

Mike

I'm looking to buy one from an actual owner who could verify the convergence and focus. Buying any other way is too big of a risk.

Thanks for the suggestion anyway.smile.gif

Tom

My equipment: JVC RS55 for 2D, BenQ W7000 for 3D, Carada 40x117 2.925:1 AR BW Criterion screen, Navatar .8 HD conversion lens, Darbee Darblet, region free Oppo BP93, Toshiba HD-A35 HD-DVD, JVC HD-DH5U D-Theater, Mitsubishi HS-HD 20000 DVHS, Pioneer CLD-97 LD player/AC-3 mod, B&K AC3 Demodulator
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post #3462 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Why isn't eshift2 as good as eshift1? Because zombie says so? No offense to zombie, but that's one man's opinion. Even if you personally thought eshift1 was indeed better (which is a tough call based on a few internet screen shots), I'm sure the difference at your seated position would be subtle at best. And zombie even said himself that there are some settings that allow eshift2 to look very, very similar to eshift1.

I don't know, it just seems silly to me to be willing to pay top dollar for a used RS55 when you can get a brand new RS4810 for so much less. But hey, it's your money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I don't think he's looking to pay top dollar, there's been some well priced, lightly used X70/RS55's in the market. More importantly, he's looking for a cherry picked model. One with excellent convergence and focus. Some people will pay a premium for golden sample. They do exist, but there's a bit of luck involved in getting one.

Sample variances can make a difference in the overall PQ. The perfect sample imo has excellent convergence, focus and consistent color and gray field uniformity.


regarding e-shift 1 and 2, several other owners have stated a preference for e-shift 1. Something has changed as I can't quite match the natural appearance of the original e-shift process. How this translates to a difference in PQ, I can't put a number on it. But I do have a preference for the original e-shift process after seeing them side by side. Most folks are going to like both processes, others will prefer RC, etc. It's good to have options.

e-shift4.jpg

I'm one of the owners that prefers eshift1. I've owned both an RS55 and now the RS4810. I noticed a difference in the eshifted picture right from the get-go. I sit at 1.6 Screen Widths and saw a benefit to eshift1 and considered it a must have. I no longer feel that way and use my RS4810 with eshift2 turned off. Eshift1 appeared natural yet it added detail that I could see at 1.6 SW. Not so with eshift2 IMO. The picture looks too processed with eshift2 even with the controls turned down. Like Jason I can't quite put my finger on what it is that distracts but for me eshift2 is a step backwards. They should have left well enough alone, or at the very least given us an eshift1 mode. I'm probably in the minority here but that's the way I see it. YMMV!

Geof
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post #3463 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post


I'm one of the owners that prefers eshift1. I've owned both an RS55 and now the RS4810. I noticed a difference in the eshifted picture right from the get-go. I sit at 1.6 Screen Widths and saw a benefit to eshift1 and considered it a must have. I no longer feel that way and use my RS4810 with eshift2 turned off. Eshift1 appeared natural yet it added detail that I could see at 1.6 SW. Not so with eshift2 IMO. The picture looks too processed with eshift2 even with the controls turned down. Like Jason I can't quite put my finger on what it is that distracts but for me eshift2 is a step backwards. They should have left well enough alone, or at the very least given us an eshift1 mode. I'm probably in the minority here but that's the way I see it. YMMV!

How did you compare them?

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post #3464 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 06:44 AM
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I didn't compare, just watched them. But Zombies comparison clearly shows differences and that may explain what it is I don't like.
I cannot present any evidence to support my opinion but I'm confident in my assessment - for me - others may differ.

Geof
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post #3465 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post


I'm one of the owners that prefers eshift1. I've owned both an RS55 and now the RS4810. I noticed a difference in the eshifted picture right from the get-go. I sit at 1.6 Screen Widths and saw a benefit to eshift1 and considered it a must have. I no longer feel that way and use my RS4810 with eshift2 turned off. Eshift1 appeared natural yet it added detail that I could see at 1.6 SW. Not so with eshift2 IMO. The picture looks too processed with eshift2 even with the controls turned down. Like Jason I can't quite put my finger on what it is that distracts but for me eshift2 is a step backwards. They should have left well enough alone, or at the very least given us an eshift1 mode. I'm probably in the minority here but that's the way I see it. YMMV!

Besides the e-shift, how do they compare?
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post #3466 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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so folks are clear, it's not a day night / difference. It's subtle and you would need to see both in person to see the differences. Some may not see a difference at all.

I do like that the MPC settings are available in 3D on the new models.
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post #3467 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

so folks are clear, it's not a day night / difference. It's subtle and you would need to see both in person to see the differences. Some may not see a difference at all.

I do like that the MPC settings are available in 3D on the new models.
Yes, I agree. As I mentioned before I'm likely in the minority so most should take my comments with a grain of salt.

Drexler,
I think both compare similarly. In my case the RS55 was sharper and had better focus uniformity but worse convergence compared to my RS4810. I prefer the CR of the RS55 tho.

Geof
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post #3468 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

In Jason I trust.

As I can't see these projectors in person, I turn to the one who's opinion I respect most. Those screenshots say it all IMO.

I would rather buy a used 55 that I know has excellent out of the box convergence and focus and pay a premium for it than buy a 4810 new. You may consider it silly but I don't.

I'm tired of having projectors with only fair convergence and focus.

Since I have only 3 to 5 years left, I want to enjoy myself and the 55 for 2D is the projector that will make it happen.

Tom
Makes sense given your priorities...and didn't mean to poke you in the eye; I hope you didn't take it that way. Best of luck with your health! smile.gif
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post #3469 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 09:50 AM
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Having both the 55 and 48, its hard to compare the eshifts. I found that I got eshift 2 to look similar to eshift 1. I was hoping for an improvement, but the same to me. Even the contrast looks similar. Maybe if I had both side by side, but going off of memory, they are very similar. If I had to choose one, it will probably be the RS48 for the improvements. Since there will probably be no 4k models for this price next year, the better bulb is worth it for another year. I would not pay more for a used 55 over a new 48, that's just me after having both of them. Also, I have a 9ft wide HP and Zombies HP is much bigger and brighter than mines and he has a different perspective from his setup.
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post #3470 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 10:23 AM
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I happened across a new review for the JVC DLA-X35 that looks to have just been posted earlier this week. My searching didn't find it in this thread or the "Official JVC DLA-RS46 / DLA-X35 owners thread" so I thought I would post it for those who might be interested:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/jvc-x35-201302052614.htm

The X35 received their "Highly Recommended" verdict.

There are some direct comparisons to the Sony VPL-HW50ES which I thought might be applicable to this thread.

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post #3471 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I happened across a new review for the JVC DLA-X35 that looks to have just been posted earlier this week. My searching didn't find it in this thread or the "Official JVC DLA-RS46 / DLA-X35 owners thread" so I thought I would post it for those who might be interested:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/jvc-x35-201302052614.htm

The X35 received their "Highly Recommended" verdict.

There are some direct comparisons to the Sony VPL-HW50ES which I thought might be applicable to this thread.

Thanks for posting. These guys have some of the best, detailed reviews out there. They are using top shelf equipment and cover areas that are completely overlooked by some of the other reviews, such as the detailed analysis of color through the glasses.

Folks must get used to the colors being off by quite a bit with the 3D glasses. It doesn't have to be this way with a basic through the glasses calibration.

3d-pre-rgb.png

IMO, the HW50 is more 3D calibration friendly in the sense that it auto-switches the calibrated modes whereas you must select the 3D mode in the JVC. They also point this out in the review.

Also, from the sample's I've seen, the HW50 has better gamma settings out of the box vs the JVC's. Every HW50 I calibrated recently is nearly flat @ 2.2 with the setting at 2.2 whereas the JVC's needed some calibration right out of the box.

Both projectors deserve a good calibration to see the best they can offer.
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post #3472 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 12:03 PM
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I'm eagarly awaiting Zombie's review on these babies... biggrin.gif:p:D

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/04/smi-eye-tracking-3d-glasses/

Boy, not even a chuckle. Tough crowd....

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post #3473 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 12:30 PM
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Been following this thread for a long while; thanks to contributers for the hard work-- especially Zombie! I'm looking forward to his thoughts on the AE8000. I am leaning towards that as a replacement for my Epson 6500UB with Darbee. I have a 132" Adeo screen in a dedicated "bat cave". I was going to stay with Epson and go for a 5020 or 5010, but I sit close enough to where the pixel structure on the 6500 is (barely) visible. I figure the "smooth screen technology" on the Panny will fix this. Also in favor of the Panny is: FI available in 3D, FI reportedly more subtle in 2D (the 'soap opera' effect annoys me on the 6500), quieter fan (I have a lot of opera and classical music BDs), and the lens memory option--though I'm not set up to use it right now. The projector case being black against my flat black ceiling is just icing on the cake.

The trade-off is foregoing the better blacks and brighter 3D of the Epson, but I'm pretty sure even the blacks on the Panny are better than the "good enough for me" ones on my current Epson. The 3D will be nice to have, and it is admittedly one of the key factors that are leading me to upgrade, but it will make up less than 5% of my use. Another negative is that you have to wait a couple of months to get the glasses in the mail for the Panny, but I'm not so impatient as to let that be a deciding factor.

The HC7900/8000 is tempting, but I doubt it has enough lumens to fill my big, low-gain screen. I really like the Sony HW50, and the RC seems awesome. Same thing with the JVCs with E-shift. But with affordable 4k right around the corner, I can't seem to convince myself to spend more than $3k on an incremental upgrade even though I could technically afford to. The residual value of my 6500 is roughly 1/3 of what I paid for it 4 years ago. I reckon any current projector bought today will see a similar drop by the time I want to upgrade again, potentially even worse if a bunch of people start flooding the market with used 1080p pjs once the first sub-$5000 4k hits the market.

If anybody thinks I'm off base here or I am missing something critical, feel free to comment smile.gif
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post #3474 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi, the HW50 sounds ideal for this setup in a dedicated room. The black level is definitely better than the Panasonic 8000.

I would contact AVScience for the HW50 pricing, it's probably better than your thinking. It also comes with a 3 year warranty and a pair of glasses, so the price isn't very far off the Panasonic.

It's going to be many years before 4K is available a these price points. The HW50 + Darbee should certainly hold you over until that time. The HW50 also has the least expensive lamps of the models mentioned in this thread.
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post #3475 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 03:02 PM
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FYI

I replaced the lamp in my Epson 6010 last night. Brief history - at about 1,600 hours or so, the lamp started to flicker in "Eco" mode, and ghosting got a lot worse. Going to high lamp mode solved the flicker problem until I got to about 2,000 hours, when I started to notice flicker again. 3D quality degraded along the way, similar to the JVC but not nearly as bad. I expected to get "like new" 3D performance after the lamp replacement, but that hasn't been the case. Light ghosting is still very, very good, but dark ghosting (branches or highly contrasting dark objects against a bright background) is much worse than it was when the original lamp was new. I don't know if this is a lamp issue or a projector issue. It was disappointing, though. I'm hoping other Epson users will report their experiences when they change their lamps.

My go-to Blu-ray for dark ghosting is Monsters vs Aliens, especially Chpt. 7, where the president walks up the stairway to the alien robot. On the original lamp, I don't recall seeing any ghosting at all, but it was very noticeable in that scene last night. Overall, though, I was struck by how very good 3D still looks on the Epson. I use medium glasses brightness, and the image looks very bright on my HP screen. Contrast is not nearly as good as the JVC, obviously, but the lack of ghosting in general more than makes up for it in terms of the overall 3D experience. Recently, I started reading the BenQ W7000 thread and other comments about that DLP, and there seem to be a lot of issues with it, too, depending on the luck of the draw. I'm loathe to trade one set of problems for others, so I'm inclined to try to keep to my original plan and wait until the Red laser is released, or at least until next year. I may not be able to keep myself in check, but it's probably the wisest course. smile.gif

BTW, I was saving my 2 year old JVC RS40 for a family member, but that looks like it's fallen through, again. It has a brand new lamp, 4 sets of Xpand 103s and a few other goodies for a good price. PM me if you're interested.

Joe Clark

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post #3476 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting info, thanks for the update. I wonder if the panels are somehow degrading over time?

myself, todd and coder haven't had any issues with the W7000, I am not really sure what others are running into. I think some component in their HDMI chain is triggering the BQ to fuss with the closed iris, I've never seen this and had 3 W7000's (when I was testing them). My current one is almost a year old and humming along with killer crosstalk-free 3D.

Did you get the Mediator player yet? I just signed up for the beta and will flash it later tonight. I'll report back on 23.97 3D playback which was always an issue with the Mica 950.

the best part so far is that it's working very well with 3D BD ISO and DTS-MA from my network storage. Even 3D ISO's on the local HD would skip if I had HD audio turned on. I ended up running core audio, but what's the fun in that. I have a pretty nice 7.2 setup and always want the HD sound.
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post #3477 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Interesting info, thanks for the update. I wonder if the panels are somehow degrading over time?

myself, todd and coder haven't had any issues with the W7000, I am not really sure what others are running into. I think some component in their HDMI chain is triggering the BQ to fuss with the closed iris, I've never seen this and had 3 W7000's (when I was testing them). My current one is almost a year old and humming along with killer crosstalk-free 3D.

Did you get the Mediator player yet? I just signed up for the beta and will flash it later tonight. I'll report back on 23.97 3D playback which was always an issue with the Mica 950.

the best part so far is that it's working very well with 3D BD ISO and DTS-MA from my network storage. Even 3D ISO's on the local HD would skip if I had HD audio turned on. I ended up running core audio, but what's the fun in that. I have a pretty nice 7.2 setup and always want the HD sound.

The dark ghosting is so much worse that I wondered if it might be the Epson panels, but it could just be the lamp. It seems plenty bright, but I don't have any way of measuring the lumens.

I had problems with DTS HD MA on the Micca, so I decided to dedicate it to my editing system. At present, I'm limited to Dolby Digital 5.1 for Sony Vegas Pro 3D iso exports, and the Micca doesn't have any trouble with DD. I copy the iso files to my Unraid server and watch via an LG LM7600 passive display. It works really well. The Mede8ter should be here by Monday, latest. I'll check out the S3D m2ts and mp4 playback. I'm hoping it works. PowerDVD 12 is supposed to do it, but it sucks at 60i 3D playback. It insists on playing them at 24fps.

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post #3478 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 05:59 PM
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Boy, not even a chuckle. Tough crowd....

smile.gif

I'm going to add 3 balls on sticks to each eye of my Sony glasses just to look cool.
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post #3479 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cyniclaus View Post

I was going to stay with Epson and go for a 5020 or 5010, but I sit close enough to where the pixel structure on the 6500 is (barely) visible. I figure the "smooth screen technology" on the Panny will fix this.

Note that the 6500 used Epson's D7 LCD panels, which only had 52% fill factor. The 5010/20 use the newer D9 panels with 65% fill factor. I have an Epson 7500 with D7 and last week I evaluated a 5020 at my dealer. The screen door effect is definitely reduced with the D9 panels.

http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2008/news_20080909.html

http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2011/news_20110901.html
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post #3480 of 9875 Old 02-08-2013, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by walterappleby View Post

I happened across a new review for the JVC DLA-X35 that looks to have just been posted earlier this week. My searching didn't find it in this thread or the "Official JVC DLA-RS46 / DLA-X35 owners thread" so I thought I would post it for those who might be interested:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/jvc-x35-201302052614.htm

The X35 received their "Highly Recommended" verdict.

There are some direct comparisons to the Sony VPL-HW50ES which I thought might be applicable to this thread.
Nice review, thanks for the link
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