Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 130 - AVS Forum
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post #3871 of 9147 Old 03-23-2013, 12:33 PM
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I just ordered some of the protostar light trap material to cover the front of the ceiling a filmscreen back in length. How to you recommend applying it? Should I cut it into smaller pieces or try and apply it as one piece across the whole ceiling (obviously twice as it needs two rolls to go back far enough)?
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post #3872 of 9147 Old 03-23-2013, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Is your ceiling drywall? This material is permanent, there is no taking it off once it goes on without destroying the drywall. I just wanted to get that warning out there... biggrin.gif

It can be applied like wallpaper. It's a 2 person job to keep it taught and make sure it's being evenly applied when pressing down on the material to engage the adhesive. If you're careful with the application, it can be overlapped and made to look seamless.


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post #3873 of 9147 Old 03-24-2013, 02:22 PM
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Yes, it is textured drywall. Guess when I eventually sell the house it will be a pain in the ass but that's for future me to deal with.
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post #3874 of 9147 Old 03-24-2013, 09:34 PM
 
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So would black velvet work just as well but be easier to remove & cost a lot less? Anyone tried this? Is it better then just flat black painted walls? I love the idea of this product but if it sticks like crazy I'm worried about trying to apply it to my ceiling that is textured. eek.gif
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post #3875 of 9147 Old 03-25-2013, 04:12 AM
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deleted, didn't know about thread below
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post #3876 of 9147 Old 03-25-2013, 05:03 AM
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Please try to keep the "black"ing out of your home theater to this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465053/black-theater-improvment-thread-once-you-go-black-you-never-go-back


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post #3877 of 9147 Old 03-25-2013, 05:24 AM
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Zombie, when will we see the 2nd season of Z30000? smile.gif Come to think of it, this thread hasn't seen a 1st one yet .smile.gif
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post #3878 of 9147 Old 03-25-2013, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Zombie, when will we see the 2nd season of Z30000? smile.gif Come to think of it, this thread hasn't seen a 1st one yet .smile.gif

I started round 1 in the Sharp 30K thread, but it quickly got lost in a discussion on ebay deals. I'll re-post it here to stay on topic.

I spent time last night calibrating an HW50 and the Sharp 30K in 3D mode. Both need fair amounts of gain changes (green and blue) to offset the loss of red due to the color tint.

The Sony HW50 ended up with ~800 lumens in 3D mode, the Sharp 30K was ~600 lumens in 3D mode. Since both are near eye level, the differences are magnified by the 2.8 gain of the screen/ Neither of these models light up the HP like the Epson 5020 in 3D, I have to go back and check my notes on the post-calibrated lumens.

of course there is no chance of crosstalk possible on the 3D DLP's. 3D performance is flawless as expected.

sharp3.jpg

sharp4.jpg

sharp5.jpg

I'm working on taming the colors in 2D this week. stay tuned.


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post #3879 of 9147 Old 03-25-2013, 12:19 PM
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Jason and others,

Thanks to all for making this thread. I have been reading for several days and am close to a decision. I wanted to solicite the group for a final round. I am shooting 18 feet to a Da-Lite HP (2.8) screen, same a Jason's. I am sitting directly in front of the projector, roughly at 17'. There is no room treatment at all, but the ceiling goes up to 16' above the screen, so there are no reflections from there. I am considering a HW50, or a new in box RS-55. I will be using very little 3D, at least until there is more content, and really want a fabulous 2D image.

Any replies would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark

I am worried about the dimming bulb as reported by others on the RS55
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post #3880 of 9147 Old 03-25-2013, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi, what size is the HP screen?

On my 142" the RS55 has a more refined PQ than the HW50. I have to turn down the reality creation to minimum for most bluray content. The e-shift creates a perception of increased detail and contrast in the overall image without obvious artifacts. I never turn e-shift off, regardless of the content. I think it makes all decent sources look better.

I wouldn't worry too much about the lamp since the rev 3 with the metal flap hasn't generated any forum buzz on early failures. I am still using my rev 2 and it's been behaving quite well. I'm running @ -11 on the iris and it's easily lighting up the HP screen.

If you are getting a good deal on the RS55, I wouldn't hesitate to get it. I still think it's one of the best under 10K for 2D PQ.


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post #3881 of 9147 Old 03-25-2013, 04:06 PM
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Oops, sorry! Size is 119". I don't know how good the deal really is. About $850 more than the Sony.....but it is new in box.
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post #3882 of 9147 Old 03-26-2013, 02:42 PM
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Quick query.

I've seen a few people say they prefer glasses with removable CR2032 batteries to glasses that have rechargeable ones. I'm just curious why? According to specs, glasses with a removable CR2032 battery will last for 70hrs of use. Many rechargeable glasses say that they will last 40-60hrs on a single charge. Assuming you can recharge them 20, 30, 50, 100 times, why would those that prefer the non-rechargeable variety... prefer the non-rechargeable variety lol.

Obviously there could be a bit of marketing speak and maybe the spec for how long a single charge lasts is inflated, but even if it's have what's claimed, 20-30hrs on a single charge, after 2 or 3 charges, you've eclipsed the CR2032. Unless the battery doesn't hold a charge after more than one or two charges... I don't get it lol.

Not trying to flame or troll lol. I'm honestly asking cause I want to see if there is something I'm missing.

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post #3883 of 9147 Old 03-26-2013, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


The Sony HW50 ended up with ~800 lumens in 3D mode, the Sharp 30K was ~600 lumens in 3D mode. .

Some additional info - The Epson 5020 calibrated through the glasses is still cranking out over 1200 lumens. When the lamp was new, it was closer to 1400.


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post #3884 of 9147 Old 03-27-2013, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Zombie, when will we see the 2nd season of Z30000? smile.gif Come to think of it, this thread hasn't seen a 1st one yet .smile.gif

+1 on the Sharp Z30000 review request.

On the Sharp 3D, it seems that there are brighter choices...
The Sharp 3D glasses get good marks, but are expensive. I'm curious about how other 3D glasses work with the Sharp, like the Sony PS3 glasses on sale now.

How about the other Sharp features relative to the Sony, JVC, etc.? The adjustability seems very good. Placement flexibility as well...

I think a lot of people are more interested in 2D picture quality and settings...The few pro reviews of the Sharp have been short on specifics.
My take is that at $5k, it was not in the current HT bang/buck conversation. At current $2K prices, it's worth a second look, especially if it handles 2D great, and 3D OK...
For us, I'm looking for something to bridge the gap, for the next few years, until 4k resolution is in the mix and 3d has more content.

smile.gif
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post #3885 of 9147 Old 03-27-2013, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Sharp 30K Round 1 was posted here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1386035/sharp-xv-z30000-3d-dlp/270#post_23117429

Tom Norton's review of this projector has good details.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/sharp-xv-z30000-3d-dlp-video-projector


He brings up 3D lumens and general color issues as a topic of concern. He's right on both accounts. Calibrated 3D lumen output is ~600, ~ 1/2 of the Epson 5020. It still works on my HP screen because I am getting maximum gain. It could be a challenge on a lower gain screens depending on the size.

The color controls are unique in that there in no offset controls for greyscale, only gain. It takes some adjusting, but I can get it relatively close for it not to be an issue. The color space is a different story, the dE's are relatively high. The built in CMS controls are a little tricky, I wasn't able to reign in all of the colors the way i'd want. The good news is, even when it's off, it doesn't really affect the PQ much and colors still looks good. Calibration perfectionists might be looking for more control though.

I need to hear from other Sharp 30K owners to see how their lens performs in comparison. This sample is good, but not great. There is some softening towards the edges / top & bottom. My RS55 and W7000 @ the same throw distance are razor sharp on the 142" HP. There is always sample variance with these different projectors, so there may be copies that are dead on.

Overall I like this projector and the contrast looks very good for a DLP. I'd have to decide if I could live with the relatively low calibrated lumen output. I'm an admitted brightness addict, so if this projector cranked out 1000 3D lumens, i'd be a big fan.
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post #3886 of 9147 Old 03-27-2013, 08:11 PM
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Thanks Zombie,
A great job as usual.
You have the best of both worlds with the JVC for 2d and the Benq for 3d. I have PJ envy. smile.gif
From what I've seen in your reviews, the Sony HW50 comes the closest to a single projector solution at <$5k.
The Sony is about twice as much as the Sharp (at current prices).
The color controls not withstanding, Tom Norton seemed to feel that the Sharp was very good at both 2d and 3d.
How do you think it stacks up against the others in your shootout?
Thanks
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post #3887 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 05:53 AM
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Hi there, anyone has an 5020 with an Dalite High power 2.8 screen that can help me to identify if my 5020 has a problem with black level?
When i put a black patern (avshd) i can see too much light coming from the projector that the image on the screen is not black, i can easy make pupets, the shadow of my hand is black, but the entire screen is dark grey, is this normal because the high power has 2.8 gain and we can never had black with this screen or my 5020 is not closing the iris like it should? I could see the black bars dark grey in a movie but i thought that was the reflections on the seiling, but with a black patern i dont see reflections! I have a dedicated blackt light control room.
Thanks
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post #3888 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Check your source components to make sure they are set to standard vs enhanced on the HDMI settings. If you're certain it's set to standard, then it's a side effect of the high gain screen and limited native contrast of the 5020 (which is still very good for an LCD projector)

This is a caveat of having a black pit with a bright projector and a 2.8HP. The limits of the black floor quickly become realized. I recently blacked out of my room and have a 142" 2.8HP. Now every projector in the review becomes subject to the same scrutiny. The only projector that get a 'full pass' here with very low APL scenes is my JVC RS55. The black floor is quite convincing on this model.

Overall though it shouldn't be an issue with most content. The 5020 is one of the brightest 3D projectors in this price category and it looks great on my HP screen.


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post #3889 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 08:45 AM
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Its not the source, i am using a htpc and in catalyst is full rgb and expanded on 5020, so 0-255 all the way, maybe its the side efect that you said, i just try to put a white sheet on the half of the screen to see the diference and ,what do you know, the dark grey becomes black! Almost no pupets with my hand, but i lose all the beautifull whites, colors and Resolution that the 5020 has with the HP... Its a shame we cant have it all! I will put velvet paper on the ceiling to treat the reflections and maybe there is nothing i can do more to blacker the blacks with this screen and projector
thanks zombie
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post #3890 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post


The only issues I've seen with motion judder on the HW50 have been using film mode.  I think someone in the HW50 thread mentioned something about an incorrect 3:2 pulldown?!  In any case, I watch a ton of sports on my HW50 and motion judder is something that I'm particularly sensitive to (think zombie and black levels)!  I can say the Sony handles motion very well if setup correctly.

JKasanic,

You must be lucky on your Sony unit because I experienced significant motion judder and I know my system is set up correctly. I use a quality hdmi cable and even tried it with a high quality component video cable and still got signficant motion judder during 2D HDTV sports. The Sony CFI called "Motion Enhancer" minimized the judder but did not eliminate it and the Epson 5020 was just as bad with motion judder.

I have over 50 hours on the Sharp XV-Z30000 and have not seen any motion judder at all. Nor have I seen any rainbows with the Sharp. No doubt about it, as far as I'm concerned the dlp Sharp is far superior than the Sony LCos & Epson 3LCD in handling motion.

It's very unfortunate because the Sony appears to do everything else very well and has a sharp image with excellent color; it's a great blu-ray movie projector if you use it primarily for movies but did not cut it for me on HDTV sports, which is my primary viewing content.

The Sharp's color is good but not as good as the Sony. The Sharp's 2D image is perhaps a bit crisper/sharper than the Sony but not by much. The Sharp's image also appears slightly more natural and the Sony can at times appear very digital and unnatural on some content.

The Sharp 30K is indeed an excellent well-rounded projector with a crisp sharp image and no doubt is worthy of being in this mini-shootout. With current pricing on the Sharp under $2,500 it is definately a great price-performance value home theater projector.

Although I miss the Sony HW50's superb color & overall image quality it can produce with blu-ray, the Sharp 30K is certainly no slouch with blu-ray and is significantly better with 2D HDTV sports. I certainly don't miss the motion judder I had with the Sony and do not regret my decision to go with the Sharp 30K.

No projector is perfect and I'm sure you will enjoy your Sony because is it a great blu-ray movie projector but just did't work for me on HDTV sports viewing content.
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post #3891 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I started round 1 in the Sharp 30K thread, but it quickly got lost in a discussion on ebay deals. I'll re-post it here to stay on topic.

I spent time last night calibrating an HW50 and the Sharp 30K in 3D mode. Both need fair amounts of gain changes (green and blue) to offset the loss of red due to the color tint.

The Sony HW50 ended up with ~800 lumens in 3D mode, the Sharp 30K was ~600 lumens in 3D mode. Since both are near eye level, the differences are magnified by the 2.8 gain of the screen/ Neither of these models light up the HP like the Epson 5020 in 3D, I have to go back and check my notes on the post-calibrated lumens.

of course there is no chance of crosstalk possible on the 3D DLP's. 3D performance is flawless as expected.

sharp3.jpg

sharp4.jpg

sharp5.jpg

I'm working on taming the colors in 2D this week. stay tuned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post



Zombie,

Do you have any specific color settings to improve the color accuracy of the Sharp 30K?

I'd be interested in any recommended settings you may have for the Sharp... it appears the Sharp's skin tones can be a bit too red on most but not all content.

I definately will not be getting it professionally calibrated so any suggestions for settings you, or other Sharp 30K owners, have would be much appreciated!
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post #3892 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 01:38 PM
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It's crazy how many of these motion judder sony issues have come up recently. The good news is I've helped many people fix it. Go to expert settings and DISABLE FILM MODE. DONE. I don't know why Sony has it on by default as it completely messes with most sat and cable boxes that output 1080i (interlaced) I had the same issue and so did a few other people and disabling film mode worked for everyone that I was in contact with. I find the Sony with FI on high has the best motion I've seen from a non DLP projector with no judder.
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post #3893 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlimatime View Post

JKasanic,

You must be lucky on your Sony unit because I experienced significant motion judder and I know my system is set up correctly. I use a quality hdmi cable and even tried it with a high quality component video cable and still got signficant motion judder during 2D HDTV sports. The Sony CFI called "Motion Enhancer" minimized the judder but did not eliminate it and the Epson 5020 was just as bad with motion judder.

I have over 50 hours on the Sharp XV-Z30000 and have not seen any motion judder at all. Nor have I seen any rainbows with the Sharp. No doubt about it, as far as I'm concerned the dlp Sharp is far superior than the Sony LCos & Epson 3LCD in handling motion.

It's very unfortunate because the Sony appears to do everything else very well and has a sharp image with excellent color; it's a great blu-ray movie projector if you use it primarily for movies but did not cut it for me on HDTV sports, which is my primary viewing content.

The Sharp's color is good but not as good as the Sony. The Sharp's 2D image is perhaps a bit crisper/sharper than the Sony but not by much. The Sharp's image also appears slightly more natural and the Sony can at times appear very digital and unnatural on some content.

The Sharp 30K is indeed an excellent well-rounded projector with a crisp sharp image and no doubt is worthy of being in this mini-shootout. With current pricing on the Sharp under $2,500 it is definately a great price-performance value home theater projector.

Although I miss the Sony HW50's superb color & overall image quality it can produce with blu-ray, the Sharp 30K is certainly no slouch with blu-ray and is significantly better with 2D HDTV sports. I certainly don't miss the motion judder I had with the Sony and do not regret my decision to go with the Sharp 30K.

No projector is perfect and I'm sure you will enjoy your Sony because is it a great blu-ray movie projector but just did't work for me on HDTV sports viewing content.

So you returned it already? Too bad. Maybe you can buy it again;)eek.gif
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post #3894 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

It's crazy how many of these motion judder sony issues have come up recently. The good news is I've helped many people fix it. Go to expert settings and DISABLE FILM MODE. DONE. I don't know why Sony has it on by default as it completely messes with most sat and cable boxes that output 1080i (interlaced) I had the same issue and so did a few other people and disabling film mode worked for everyone that I was in contact with. I find the Sony with FI on high has the best motion I've seen from a non DLP projector with no judder.

for viewing 2d bluray what do u prefer? disabling film mode or enable it?
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post #3895 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

It's crazy how many of these motion judder sony issues have come up recently. The good news is I've helped many people fix it. Go to expert settings and DISABLE FILM MODE. DONE. I don't know why Sony has it on by default as it completely messes with most sat and cable boxes that output 1080i (interlaced) I had the same issue and so did a few other people and disabling film mode worked for everyone that I was in contact with. I find the Sony with FI on high has the best motion I've seen from a non DLP projector with no judder.

excellent suggestion, I immediately turn this off every time I calibrate one of these HW50's. I don't know why Sony turned this on by default, but it's no doubt the root cause of the complaints i've seen.


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post #3896 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 04:49 PM
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post #3897 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 05:28 PM
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It took them long enough to review it. I must say IMO it was a very accurate review. The only complaint i have is that digital noise on some scenes can be noticeable. On other scenes there is zero noise, both using the same RC and noise reduction settings.

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post #3898 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I was OK reading the beginning of that review until I got to here:

Contrast: The AE8000 and the HW50 are roughly equal when it comes to black level, and both projectors look similar enough in this regard that picking them apart would be arbitrary and a little silly.

Color: Both projectors have accurate color right out of the box. The HW50's Cinema Film 1 mode is already close to 6500K without adjustment, as is the AE8000's Rec709 mode.


Those are not my observations.

My perspective:

Contrast - The Sony has a noticeable advantage in overall contrast and black floor. The Panasonic was one of the weakest in this regard this year compared to the other models in the shootout. If you see them both calibrated in a direct A/B, this is not hard to see.

Color - These 2 projectors are polar opposites in this regard. The Sony is one of the closest to D65/R709 out of the box, with usually greyscale needing attention. The Panasonic had some of the highest dE's out of the box and needed immediate attention with the calibration equipment.

White field uniformity - The HW50 has a significant advantage here over the Panasonic. The HW50 is not quite as good as my RS55, but it's a light year ahead of the 8000. This was noticeable to me in certain content like the Art of Flight and some B&W movies.

The HW50 imo is much better projector than the Panasonic 8000. The US price isn't that much of a difference if you factor in the extra lamp + extended warranty.

Sharpness- They mention several times how sharp the Sony is. Readers must understand this is exclusively due to the reality creation and not a result of a top shelf lens. There are noise artifacts with reality creation, but they can be mitigated with turning it down and using some of the filtering. This is why folks are chomping at the bit for a VW 95 V2.0. An excellent lens + reality creation is going to look great and more refined than the HW50 can currently display.

They should have been comparing the HW50 to the JVC RS4810 which is a closer match. The 4810 is more naturally sharp than the HW50 without e-shift. RC vs. E-shift will come down to personal tastes. The reality creation creates the sharp 'in your face' appearance which looks great with HDTV and most blurays. Some blurays you have to turn it off due to the noise in the background. I sit close to my 142" 16:9 so this becomes more obvious than it would on a smaller 100" or 110" screen.

I find the e-shift is more refined and has a more natural appearance, but in the default settings, doesn't have the 'pop' sharpness than the reality creation presents. If you play with the new settings, you can match the RC appearance, but at the expense of hurting the overall PQ. I would leave the 4810 at the factory e-shift settings and add a Darbee to get that extra edge of sharpness.

The Sony gets kudos for 1000+ D65 lumens. I hope they keep getting brighter each year.


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post #3899 of 9147 Old 03-28-2013, 06:04 PM
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Thank you Zombie. I have a HW50 on order to replace my Epson 5020 and every review I have read so far was not very kind to the Panny regarding black floor and out of the box color. I am counting on the Sony to have blacks that equal the 5020.

The only reason I am going to the Sony is because of the noisy iris and fan. Otherwise, I really like the Epson. If I had a different setup I would keep it.
A lot of bang for the buck with the Epson.

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post #3900 of 9147 Old 03-29-2013, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlimatime View Post

JKasanic,

You must be lucky on your Sony unit because I experienced significant motion judder and I know my system is set up correctly. I use a quality hdmi cable and even tried it with a high quality component video cable and still got signficant motion judder during 2D HDTV sports. The Sony CFI called "Motion Enhancer" minimized the judder but did not eliminate it and the Epson 5020 was just as bad with motion judder.

Are you saying that you turned off film mode and still had motion judder?
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