Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 133 - AVS Forum
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post #3961 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dannoooo View Post

Would I be wasting my money by adding a DARBEE to use in addition to using the RC? Would it be better to use the Darbee with a higher setting and turn off RC?

I also wonder about that, any help will be great thanks smile.gif
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post #3962 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannoooo View Post

Would I be wasting my money by adding a DARBEE to use in addition to using the RC? Would it be better to use the Darbee with a higher setting and turn off RC?

I also wonder about that, any help will be great thanks smile.gif

 

Guys, plenty of posts in the HW50 owner's thread about RC and a Darbee.  Just do a search for Darbee in that thread.  In fact, I posted about my experiences here.

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post #3963 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

I also wonder about that, any help will be great thanks smile.gif

I was wondering the same thing myself and wound up getting both the HW50ES and Darbee. To be honest I find that they make a great pair and do not regret getting both. I keep the RC on but turn off the Darbee if I am working with really poor source materials though.
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post #3964 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I've calibrated a number of HW50's in the last few months, white field uniformity isn't an issue imo. It's not quite as good as the JVC, but still very good overall and significantly better than the Panasonic 8000. With the 8000, I can see the color shifts with real content such as the Art of Flight (all white) and B&W movies. The HW50 gets a full pass with these movies.

The majority of HW50 lenses I've seen pretty much all perform the same. Good sharpness until 3/4 of the way out of the screen, then some copies perform a bit better than others. Native vs. Native, the JVC's simply have a better lens. The RC does a good job at fooling the eye into thinking it's sharper than it is. Most people are convinced which is why the projector gets such good reviews. It can be overdone a bit with certain bluray content, but you always have the option to turn it off.

The real competitor to the HW50 is the JVC RS4810. Sci-fi / bluray fanatics may gravitate towards the 4810 since the e-shift is a little more subtle/natural in appearance than the reality creation.. The Sony is cheaper to operate (least expensive lamp out of all the projectors in this review) and much quieter than the JVC in high lamp. The Sony also has 1000 D65 lumens which is impressive.

good luck with your decision.

Thanks Zombie10K , if it wasn't for your efforts here I really wouldn't have the info I need to even start making an educated decision . I'm waiting on some pricing to come in from a local Dealer then I'll let you know what choice I've made .

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post #3965 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

He's using a scope screen, so maybe he should consider both the RS-46 or preferably the RS-48 over the Sony hw50 since he is so heavy on just movies.

Also, I got spoiled by the JVC's native sharpness in HTPC reading, once you go sharp you stop playing harps. I have never had a Sony hw50 in my home, so I can't say how it matches up in this dept, but I'm assuming it's a notch down. For movies, I'm sure it's fine as Zombie says with the RC and even without it, it should be ok. I even stopped using the Benq w7000 to read text because the JVC is a hair better. I do a lot of reading on my PJ screen now, with every other PJ I found it tiring.

I would think even the RS-46 + Darbee + other sharpening gives the Sony a run for the money. If you can really get the same sharpening algorithm or very close just by buying a Sony s790 BD player, then you have the same thing on the JVC's (RC on JVC). Yah, the RS-48 is better than the RS-46, but the RS-46 is quiet a bit cheaper and you lose the CMS + E-shift 2.

Thanks Coderguy , I've followed your Posts religiously and know your affection for natural Sharpness . Getting the JVC "tweaked" is not a deterrent and something I don't mind having to do . Waiting on some pricing to make the final decision .

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post #3966 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Are you using an A-lens or zooming?

I'm using a Prismasonic H-500 A-Lens . One of the original back when Scope setups were in their infancy , at least for Home configurations .
I may be able to still use it but it will depend on how it might match up with whichever PJ I end up with . I won't know until I try the two together .
The Zoom Method and auto store of the JVC really has me leaning that way . I saw this in action at CEDIA and I may be hooked .

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post #3967 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

With his "strictly 2d movies on a scope screen" info, the JVC seems like a no brainer. If he is also using the zoom method on his scope screen, it makes this decision all the easier as the motorized lens on the JVC will make this exercise MUCH more pleasant and a manual lens projector like the 50 will quickly feel like a PITA if his experience is anything like mine.

This is an easy decision IMO. smile.gif

My thinking exactly . The only reason I even started looking at the Sony was price . The Quotes I was getting up here for the JVC's were a little out of my range .
Still looking though and I may have an answer this week .

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post #3968 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Yeah, that special is a pretty sweet deal. Enjoy your projector. smile.gif

Thanks for your help, Mike! I'm looking forward to Thursday when my RS4810 is due to arrive! biggrin.gif

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post #3969 of 9087 Old 04-09-2013, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Wow, they did a great job on this conversion. I watched it last night on a 3D color calibrated Sony HW50. This is one of those movies where compensating for the tint of the glasses pays off. The white mountains and the overall colors look very good through the glasses.

It's a shame this won't be easily accessible in the US for those that don't want to modify the region of their BD player. For the digitally inclined, it was simple. MakeMKV did a great job ripping out the MVC 3D data w/ HD audio. The Mediator played it back flawlessly.

The POV shots are amazing, you really get a sense of their speed as they are flying down these mountains. This is why I sit close to my 142", I like my entire field of view to be surrounded by the screen.

definitely a recommended purchase for 3D fans.

Which glasses are you using for the Sony 3D?
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post #3970 of 9087 Old 04-10-2013, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by n8dgr84 View Post

Which glasses are you using for the Sony 3D?

I use the factory Sony glasses and the Monster Vision 3D glasses with the Sony.


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post #3971 of 9087 Old 04-10-2013, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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sharp.jpg

Sharp 30K color calibration - This projectors color controls are interesting to say the least. There are no offset controls for greyscale, so you only have gain control. It tracks fairly well with the limited controls, but it's difficult to get it perfect.

sharp30k-4.jpg

Most projectors have color space variances between modes, but the Sharp 30k is unique in that each setting (standard, user, cinema, etc) pretty much all have the same color space. The differences between each mode are mostly gamma and iris changes. The CMS does not allow anywhere near enough leverage to bring in the dE's. The lumagen 125 pt auto cal was a bit helpless as well, the luminance on 2 of primary colors (green / red) is quite low.

sharp30k-1.jpg

Gamma tracking was decent, there is a control for 50%, 80-85%. The changes are very coarse, you can only move it 1 point in each direction to make adjustments, otherwise it's off the chart.

sharp30k-5.jpg

Saturation tracking is displayed below. Green has the highest dE's.

sharp30k-2.jpg

After tweaking the greyscale and gamma a bit, the results provide good PQ that the majority of folks are going to enjoy. Without the custom Sharp 30K software mentioned in Thomas Norton's review, there is little chance of correcting the color space.

For color perfectionists, the Sony HW50 is king of the hill this year. Excellent out of the box color and a dream to calibrate compared to the Sharp 30k and Panasonic 8000.

3D Lumens - After a near D65 color calibration through the glasses, the Sharp 30K puts out ~600 lumens at 17 feet from the 142" screen. Contrast in 3D looks very good, thanks partly to using IR vs. DLP link which can hurt contrast. Even with the difficult color controls, I would have bought this projector for 3D if it was at least 900+ lumens in 3D.

Contrast - the Sharp 30k is comparable to the Sony HW30 from last year. Good but not great black level performance. The Epson 5020 and HW50 have an obvious advantage, especially on a high power screen. The JVC RS55 is significantly better.

Of all the projectors I've reviewed over the last 2 years, the RS55 is still my 'go to' projector for blurays, sci-fi and stage concerts. The black floor is excellent @ -11 on the iris and I'm a big fan of e-shift 1 which does a great job on my 142" 16:9 HP. For my preferences of a large screen + close seating distance, E-shift 1 > E-shift 2 > Reality Creation. I'd like to see Sony put in better controls next year to tone down the RC a bit.

Hopefully Sony will release a V2.0 of the VW95 in the fall, It would need all of the HW50 upgrades (brighter in 3D, 1000 lumens please), less crosstalk in 3D, Reality Creation, etc.


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post #3972 of 9087 Old 04-10-2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

sharp.jpg

Sharp 30K color calibration - This projectors color controls are interesting to say the least. There are no offset controls for greyscale, so you only have gain control. It tracks fairly well with the limited controls, but it's difficult to get it perfect.

sharp30k-4.jpg

Most projectors have color space variances between modes, but the Sharp 30k is unique in that each setting (standard, user, cinema, etc) pretty much all have the same color space. The differences between each mode are mostly gamma and iris changes. The CMS does not allow anywhere near enough leverage to bring in the dE's. The lumagen 125 pt auto cal was a bit helpless as well, the luminance on 2 of primary colors (green / red) is quite low.

sharp30k-1.jpg

Gamma tracking was decent, there is a control for 50%, 80-85%. The changes are very coarse, you can only move it 1 point in each direction to make adjustments, otherwise it's off the chart.

sharp30k-5.jpg

Saturation tracking is displayed below. Green has the highest dE's.

sharp30k-2.jpg

After tweaking the greyscale and gamma a bit, the results provide good PQ that the majority of folks are going to enjoy. Without the custom Sharp 30K software mentioned in Thomas Norton's review, there is little chance of correcting the color space.

For color perfectionists, the Sony HW50 is king of the hill this year. Excellent out of the box color and a dream to calibrate compared to the Sharp 30k and Panasonic 8000.

3D Lumens - After a near D65 color calibration through the glasses, the Sharp 30K puts out ~600 lumens at 17 feet from the 142" screen. Contrast in 3D looks very good, thanks partly to using IR vs. DLP link which can hurt contrast. Even with the difficult color controls, I would have bought this projector for 3D if it was at least 900+ lumens in 3D.

Contrast - the Sharp 30k is comparable to the Sony HW30 from last year. Good but not great black level performance. The Epson 5020 and HW50 have an obvious advantage, especially on a high power screen. The JVC RS55 is significantly better.

Of all the projectors I've reviewed over the last 2 years, the RS55 is still my 'go to' projector for blurays, sci-fi and stage concerts. The black floor is excellent @ -11 on the iris and I'm a big fan of e-shift 1 which does a great job on my 142" 16:9 HP. For my preferences of a large screen + close seating distance, E-shift 1 > E-shift 2 > Reality Creation. I'd like to see Sony put in better controls next year to tone down the RC a bit.

Hopefully Sony will release a V2.0 of the VW95 in the fall, It would need all of the HW50 upgrades (brighter in 3D, 1000 lumens please), less crosstalk in 3D, Reality Creation, etc.

Zombie, Thanks for the work on the Sharp 30000.
I'm curious about how your Sharp Z30000 final settings compare to Art's on Projector Review. Are you in the same ballpark?
Did you try it for sports in the Stage mode? I have memory #1 set up for Movie 1 mode on a 110 inch HP 2.8. Beautiful picture for nighttime movies.
The surprise to me was Stage mode. I set up a 106 inch grey pull down screen behind the HP and have it set up with Memory #2 and Stage mode. With a push of a button, I can watch sports during the day with the shades open and a bright vibrant picture. Hard to believe at the price point. Amazing. smile.gif

I am also hoping that Sony steps up with an update to the VW95. However, it seems like we're getting close to the point of diminishing returns with this generation of HT projectors. Similar to computers, where after a while it's difficult to see much of a "real world" benefit to the improvements. So, they concentrate on "bang for the buck" and make them cheaper. A good thing.

Sony may stand pat and focus on the next big thing, perhaps 4k...I have not been following the hype, has anyone heard anything about Sony's next move?
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post #3973 of 9087 Old 04-10-2013, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Stage mode is definitely one of the better modes on the 30K.

My calibration changes are not the same as the one on PR. This specific copy only needed blue gain to come down to get a relatively close D65 calibration. Each lamp will have different behavior, there can be wide variances in grayscale calibration between different copies of the same model.

an important calibration tip, don't add + gain when calibrating. it's tempting, but you are tweaking the black floor in a negative way. subtraction is the only way to correctly adjust the grayscale.

In this case, blue is hot and needed ~ -7 on the gain to bring it close to 100% for RGB.

sharp30k-6.jpg

On some projectors, grayscale can change rapidly over the first 100+ hours of the lamps life. Red is usually the first color to go, it just depends on how quickly it happens. Some projectors like the Panasonic 8000 are low in red right out of the box. This causes us to have to have pull down green to compensate. This costs a bunch of lumens since light output is most affected by green. Pulling down blue has the least effect on lumen output.

3D brightness should be pretty good on the 110" 2.8HP. Do you have it close to eye level for max gain?


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post #3974 of 9087 Old 04-10-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Stage mode is definitely one of the better modes on the 30K.

My calibration changes are not the same as the one on PR. This specific copy only needed blue gain to come down to get a relatively close D65 calibration. Each lamp will have different behavior, there can be wide variances in grayscale calibration between different copies of the same model.

an important calibration tip, don't add + gain when calibrating. it's tempting, but you are tweaking the black floor in a negative way. subtraction is the only way to correctly adjust the grayscale.

In this case, blue is hot and needed ~ -7 on the gain to bring it close to 100% for RGB.

sharp30k-6.jpg

On some projectors, grayscale can change rapidly over the first 100+ hours of the lamps life. Red is usually the first color to go, it just depends on how quickly it happens. Some projectors like the Panasonic 8000 are low in red right out of the box. This causes us to have to have pull down green to compensate. This costs a bunch of lumens since light output is most affected by green. Pulling down blue has the least effect on lumen reduction.

3D brightness should be pretty good on the 110" 2.8HP. Do you have it close to eye level for max gain?

I have a 3D movie on order to try out. It should be here tomorrow and I'll post back here and in the Z30000 thread.
I have a cathedral ceiling mount, so no way to get eye level. I think my overall gain with this set up is 1.3 to 1.4. We'll see how it goes with 3D, however, Stage mode is really bright. I'm hoping it does the trick.
I've asked this question before, but have not got a clear answer: Will the Sony PS3 IR glasses work well with the Z30000? If so, how do they compare with the Sharp glasses?
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post #3975 of 9087 Old 04-10-2013, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I use the factory Sony glasses and the Monster Vision 3D glasses with the Sony.

Do you have a preference between the two?
Whats the diff?
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post #3976 of 9087 Old 04-10-2013, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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The Monster Vision glasses are comfortable, the Sony's are a little heavy after wearing them a while. Overall performance is pretty much the same.


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post #3977 of 9087 Old 04-11-2013, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

For color perfectionists, the Sony HW50 is king of the hill this year. Excellent out of the box color and a dream to calibrate compared to the Sharp 30k and Panasonic 8000.

 

Please excuse my calibration ignorance, but if I understand correctly, when you have a lumagen or other device with a separate CMS, you have a couple different options regarding how to perform the calibration.  I was wondering with the Sony (if it were your personal projector and you weren't calibrating for someone else), would you first use the Sony CMS to do a calibration and then let the lumagen perform it's 125 pt auto calibration or is the OOTB performance good enough that you would just go right to the lumagen and save some time?  I'm thinking about getting a lumagen but then also thought it might be good for me to have to do my first calibration "old school" to better understand what is going on.  I will admit though, there's a side of me that is willing to invest in the convenience of the auto-calibration.  How hard is it for the calibration manufacturers to program their software to interface directly with the CMS of the projector?  It seems this is possible with the JVC's so I was wondering if this is something that might eventually work with the Sony or if there's some proprietary issue at play?  Thanks.

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post #3978 of 9087 Old 04-11-2013, 07:20 AM
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The Monster Vision glasses are comfortable, the Sony's are a little heavy after wearing them a while. Overall performance is pretty much the same.

How about the Sharp glasses compared to the Sony?
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post #3979 of 9087 Old 04-11-2013, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Please excuse my calibration ignorance, but if I understand correctly, when you have a lumagen or other device with a separate CMS, you have a couple different options regarding how to perform the calibration.  I was wondering with the Sony (if it were your personal projector and you weren't calibrating for someone else), would you first use the Sony CMS to do a calibration and then let the lumagen perform it's 125 pt auto calibration or is the OOTB performance good enough that you would just go right to the lumagen and save some time?  I'm thinking about getting a lumagen but then also thought it might be good for me to have to do my first calibration "old school" to better understand what is going on.  I will admit though, there's a side of me that is willing to invest in the convenience of the auto-calibration.  How hard is it for the calibration manufacturers to program their software to interface directly with the CMS of the projector?  It seems this is possible with the JVC's so I was wondering if this is something that might eventually work with the Sony or if there's some proprietary issue at play?  Thanks.

With a projector like the HW50, the color space is close enough where I would leave it alone and let the lumagen do the heavy living. No one is going to manually adjust all those saturation points so that's where the great benefit of the 125 pt auto-cal comes into play.

On my RS55, I do make some minor CMS adjustments to lower the dE's which helps the lumagen do it's job better.

The real issue is that the lumagen cannot perform miracles. If the saturation or luminance levels are low, there is nothing the lumagen can do to fix the issue. In the case of the Sharp 30K and the Panasonic 8000, the color space dE's are too high and it's impossible to get a perfect calibration.

The moral of the story is, the better the projector is from the factory, the better the results will be with the 125 pt auto cal. Saturation tracking is excellent on the HW50, this projector doesn't really need a lumagen / 125 pt autocal. You can easily tweak it with a calibrated meter like the D3 Pro.

After you do enough calibrations though, it is nice to push a button and come back 45 minutes later with a near perfect cal. smile.gif


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post #3980 of 9087 Old 04-11-2013, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post

How about the Sharp glasses compared to the Sony?

The Sharp glasses are more comfortable than the Sony glasses. The built in '2D' function is excellent for those that just want to watch in 2D while the others watch in 3D.


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post #3981 of 9087 Old 04-19-2013, 06:36 PM
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Have not seen this mentioned. "Where the Trail Ends" from the producers of "The Art of Flight"............

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1469049/where-the-trail-ends-from-the-producers-of-art-of-flight-your-new-picture-quality-go-to-demo-disc

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #3982 of 9087 Old 04-22-2013, 07:28 AM
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Slightly off topic for this thread, but I saw some discussion relating to the contrast comparison of an RS55 vs an RS4810 (x70 vs x55). More alarmingly I found a glaring error in Art's review on the X95 (which of course is a derivative of the X75 and its predecessor's X70/X90).

In Art's review at http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-x95r/index.php

I quote from his review
Quote:
Don't expect anything but a very small improvement in contrast due to stopping down the iris. Improvement yes, a real difference maker: No.

This is factually wrong for the entire range in fact, but particularly so for the X7/X9/X70/X90/X75/X95 with their dual aperture systems. Unfortunately the dual aperture mechanism did not make its way into the RS4810.

With the default non-calibrated User1/6500K/Natural setting, I measured around approx. 30,000:1 with the aperture wide open, and 100,000:1 with the aperture on minimum. I am sure you will agree that is a significant and profound contrast difference. This is with an X75 which seems to be over-delivering slightly but I am certainly not complaining! The easiest way to measure contast ratio is with a light meter positioned directly in-front of the lens. Display a 100 IRE screen, and measure...then press the hide button and measure again.

In my view the difference between these two numbers is considerable and it is important with these higher models to get that aperture closed for 2D. It is hard , very hard to get it to -15 as the output is considerably lower at this point than an X35/X55 (RS46,RS4810) unless you have a high gain screen. But to max out the contrast improvements of these higher end projectors as well as optimize black level, it is essential to carefully consider the screen size and material (gain) and get that aperture below half way.

In fact, wide open, the contrast difference between the models is quite modest. It is not until you start closing the aperture down on the higher models, that the differences become more profound.

In the lower models of the range, the aperture is a simple diamond shaped iris just behind the lens elements. There is also a contrast improvement that IS most certainly visible with these models too, but just not as distinct in difference as the higher models. Geoff showed a chart somewhere on the RS4810 thread (Cant find it now) that showed how the contrast rapidly ramps up with the higher models with dual aperture system. The higher models have a second aperture infront of the bulb (you can hear a different motor sound when adjusting on these models).

So I know some have discussed the merits of the RS4810 vs the RS56 (X55 vs X75), and I would say if you have a smaller screensize or a higher gain material, that the differences will be larger for you. As we know the JVCs are not so bright in general compared to competitors, if you can't get that aperture closed down, you may not be able to appreciate some of the advantages of the JVCs.
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post #3983 of 9087 Old 04-22-2013, 07:47 PM
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Interesting points Jon.

I generally find my JVC RS55 to be quite dynamic looking. But every once in a while I watch a movie at my friend's place, as I did a couple nights ago. He has my JVC RS20 (my previous projector) that I sold him, on a grayhawk screen in an untreated room. The first thing is I can't believe how great and deep the contrast looks in his set up. (And that's coming from a guy, me, who can have bat cave conditions with my RS55). The second is how gorgeous the color coming out of that projector (RS20). Colors just look richer, more saturated, more beautiful than on my RS55 and also despite the fact it doesn't have E-shift like my RS55 I find the RS20 strikes me as looking more film-like. I come back envying that image somewhat and feeling like I made something of a side-ways "upgrade" to some degree. (And I always throw on the same movie when I get home, and yes, the color seems more bland).

I'd think this would come down to differences in calibration, but the weird thing is BOTH that RS20 and my RS55 were calibrated by the same person (umr, very well regarded around here), so I can't figure out what is going on. (Both projectors certainly improved with professional calibration, but I don't know why there remain these differences between them).

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post #3984 of 9087 Old 04-22-2013, 08:06 PM
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I kind of feel like I did a "sideways" upgrade as well going from the benq w10000 to the w7000. Aside from the 3D which is awesome, the rest of the performance is pretty close to the w10000. I never did a side by side for 2D. I sometimes turn on the w7000 and am blown away and sometimes it looks not so good.

I must have 1080p
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post #3985 of 9087 Old 04-23-2013, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Interesting points Jon.

I'd think this would come down to differences in calibration, but the weird thing is BOTH that RS20 and my RS55 were calibrated by the same person (umr, very well regarded around here), so I can't figure out what is going on. (Both projectors certainly improved with professional calibration, but I don't know why there remain these differences between them).

If you find the color more punchy on the RS20, it's probably due to showing a different sat-tracking, slightly different color gamut overall, and a different gamma curve settings (or maybe gray-scale has drifted on one or the other). One issue with the JVC's is that they tend to drift a lot in calibration. Also, remember that on our JVC's NO calibration is technically perfect due to some minor gamut issues, so you can always make a new preset and adjust it away from D65 slightly to please your eyes more (no-one will tell on you). Calibrators are not perfect in compensating against what we see to the eye, they are just getting it as close to the standards as much as the projector will allow, which is often a limitation on its own.

For instance, on my RS-45 (though I doubt your gamut presets will be close to mine), but I am using a modified D Gamma because it makes bright scenes look punchier on the JVC, but I had to modify it heavily at the lower IRE's to get rid of black crush.



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post #3986 of 9087 Old 04-23-2013, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Interesting points Jon.

I generally find my JVC RS55 to be quite dynamic looking. But every once in a while I watch a movie at my friend's place, as I did a couple nights ago. He has my JVC RS20 (my previous projector) that I sold him, on a grayhawk screen in an untreated room. The first thing is I can't believe how great and deep the contrast looks in his set up. (And that's coming from a guy, me, who can have bat cave conditions with my RS55). The second is how gorgeous the color coming out of that projector (RS20). Colors just look richer, more saturated, more beautiful than on my RS55 and also despite the fact it doesn't have E-shift like my RS55 I find the RS20 strikes me as looking more film-like. I come back envying that image somewhat and feeling like I made something of a side-ways "upgrade" to some degree. (And I always throw on the same movie when I get home, and yes, the color seems more bland).

I'd think this would come down to differences in calibration, but the weird thing is BOTH that RS20 and my RS55 were calibrated by the same person (umr, very well regarded around here), so I can't figure out what is going on. (Both projectors certainly improved with professional calibration, but I don't know why there remain these differences between them).

The RS20 (and the RS25 I had) were fine projectors. I think I recall you and I exchanging messages about whether you should upgrade to the newer models and I felt there was a real upgrade there....I am really sorry if I influenced you and you regret that decision. Projectors afterall are very expensive devices and I would hate to think I had talked someone into an upgrade they wish they hadn't done!

In terms of why your visualization at your friends house is different may be down to screen material. My understanding is that the Greyhawk material is a contrast enhancing material. Of course any grey material has advantages in terms of being used in an untreated room as it is specifically designed to reject light that is not directed from dead ahead (i.e. reduce wall reflections). As a person with a grey screen too, I can vouch for how well these materials do work. Also, if the screen is bigger for you than for your friend, this could make a significant difference too. For example, maybe your friend has aimed for a higher ftL while still keeping the aperture closed down due to a smaller screen. This can give the perception of more contrast and to a certain extent more vibrancy too. In terms of colours though, we know that the RS50 and RS55 both suffered from slightly undersaturated gamuts...although it was so close that I don't think you could "really" see it. On the RS20/25/30/35, JVC had it right with an over saturated gamut. This year JVC has it half right on my X75 with Red, Yellow, Blue and Magenta being over-saturated. Green is only over-saturated along the Blue/Green axis but not the Red/Green one. Cyan is a fraction under. However, unlike some graphs posted on here particularly those posted for the RS4810, measured with my i1 pro 2, I can get Green and Cyan less than 1dE from perfect.....in other words right on the line. I would prefer if it was just on the other side of the line, but as can be seen from every review of this years entire range, the filter choice seems to have made green and cyan a bit too tight (choice of green filter).

I don't recall if you are a 3D fan or not. I certainly am. In fact it was solely 3D that encouraged me to upgrade to the X7 in the first place. With the X7 I did feel there was an upgrade in contrast vs my RS25 but due to the limited calibrated lumens specific to the X7/X9/RS50/RS60, and my grey screen material, I could never get the aperture closed enough to get the full benefit. This combined with the frustrating gamma and greyscale interaction issues influenced me to upgrade again. Incidentally I did have the X7 and an RS25 alongside each other in the same room on the same screen for a short period.

One thing that I appreciate in this thread is the emphasis on 3D. I know there are some haters. I know some think its a passing fad. Watching movies is about enjoyment and fun. Our home cinemas, for videophile enthusiasts like ourselves can become an obsession to the point that we stop enjoying the film and spend our entire time analyzing the picture. I fell into this trap myself. I fondly remembered 3D as a child in the cinema seeing Jaws 3D. And that is exactly what 3D is today...fun. You can have a serious 2D movie session and you can have a fun 3D one. I don't see why one negates the other, rather they compliment as part of a total home viewing experience. I DO sympathise with the argument that 3D has been added to some movies for the sake of it and that it actually devalues 3D as a proposition for the future as a result. The vast majority of digital cinema projectors are too dim for 3D and devalue the experience in a theatre. But there are movies that I believe demonstrate that 3D does have a place now and in the future for cinema and home theatres alike. Aside from the obvious Avatar, titles like Life of Pi and Hugo are simply not the same in 2D. Movies like Jurassic Park are intended to be fun and nothing more than. If done correctly with JP 4 (I am aware of the re-invention of JP 1 into 3D) it could be great fun indeed. Dinosaurs in 3D...why on Earth not? smile.gif
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post #3987 of 9087 Old 04-23-2013, 06:12 AM
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I should start off by apologizing for asking the same question that has been posed many times in this thread. This is my first projector purchase and I'm worried about getting the most for the investment.

Recently I was able to view the HW50ES and really was impressed with the RC. Of course this was in a show room, and even having brought my own playback device and content I wasn't able to spend sufficient time finding scenarios where RC didn't improve the picture. I was specifically looking to eliminate my own perceived need for something like RC.

The reason for this is that the RS46u and the HW50ES are available to me at the same price. Both projectors come with replacement bulbs. I'm trying to decide between the projectors, and I could use some advice.

Background:
- Completely Light Controlled Room
- All 2D content, primarily concerts and feature films of Blu-ray equivalent quality
- Playback comes from an OpenELEC system running through an Oppo BDP-105
- Will throw onto a painted wall for the next 4 months, then purchase a screen

I've never been able to see a JVC projector running, my main objective will be picture detail. I'm concerned that the RS46u not having their eshift2 technology means that I should more seriously consider the HD50ES.

I seek your sage advice.
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post #3988 of 9087 Old 04-23-2013, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by storrgie View Post


The reason for this is that the RS46u and the HW50ES are available to me at the same price. Both projectors come with replacement bulbs. I'm trying to decide between the projectors, and I could use some advice.

Background:
- Completely Light Controlled Room
- All 2D content, primarily concerts and feature films of Blu-ray equivalent quality
- Playback comes from an OpenELEC system running through an Oppo BDP-105
- Will throw onto a painted wall for the next 4 months, then purchase a screen

I've never been able to see a JVC projector running, my main objective will be picture detail. I'm concerned that the RS46u not having their eshift2 technology means that I should more seriously consider the HD50ES.

I seek your sage advice.

These are both great projectors with their own unique strengths. Is the area around the screen light treated? (dark ceilings, surrounding wall, floor). This will help show the contrast advantage of the JVC vs. the Sony. You would see this mostly with dark sci-fi and stage concerts. It's harder to tell with mixed or bright content.

The RS46 is more naturally sharp than the HW50. RC is responsible for the majority of the PQ improvement you're seeing. You might find that some blurays show too much film grain with the RC turned on.

if you're in the US, check with AVS for pricing on the HW50 and the RS4810 / X55, they should be relatively close in price. The RS46 is less costly than the HW50.


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post #3989 of 9087 Old 04-23-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by storrgie View Post

I should start off by apologizing for asking the same question that has been posed many times in this thread. This is my first projector purchase and I'm worried about getting the most for the investment.

Recently I was able to view the HW50ES and really was impressed with the RC. Of course this was in a show room, and even having brought my own playback device and content I wasn't able to spend sufficient time finding scenarios where RC didn't improve the picture. I was specifically looking to eliminate my own perceived need for something like RC.

The reason for this is that the RS46u and the HW50ES are available to me at the same price. Both projectors come with replacement bulbs. I'm trying to decide between the projectors, and I could use some advice.

Background:
- Completely Light Controlled Room
- All 2D content, primarily concerts and feature films of Blu-ray equivalent quality
- Playback comes from an OpenELEC system running through an Oppo BDP-105
- Will throw onto a painted wall for the next 4 months, then purchase a screen

I've never been able to see a JVC projector running, my main objective will be picture detail. I'm concerned that the RS46u not having their eshift2 technology means that I should more seriously consider the HD50ES.

I seek your sage advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

These are both great projectors with their own unique strengths. Is the area around the screen light treated? (dark ceilings, surrounding wall, floor). This will help show the contrast advantage of the JVC vs. the Sony. You would see this mostly with dark sci-fi and stage concerts. It's harder to tell with mixed or bright content.

The RS46 is more naturally sharp than the HW50. RC is responsible for the majority of the PQ improvement you're seeing. You might find that some blurays show too much film grain with the RC turned on.

if you're in the US, check with AVS for pricing on the HW50 and the RS4810 / X55, they should be relatively close in price. The RS46 is less costly than the HW50.

Gotta say I love the natural colours and brightness of the HW50!

However, since no 3D or sports with fast motion is in your viewing program, I'd get the X55 with a high gain screen.
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post #3990 of 9087 Old 04-23-2013, 12:57 PM
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I ordered an HW50 from Craig at AVS and it looks like it will get here this coming Monday. It will be my first foray into projectors so I'm sure I will be happy with it, but I'm just trying to avoid as many first timer mistakes as my room will allow. I'm looking for a fairly large 16:9 screen to pair with the HW-50, somewhere between 130"-150". Projector will be back about 20-21 feet from lens to screen and there will be some ambient light in the daytime even after I do some new curtains since it's in a living room. Projector will be ceiling mounted, I will get it as low as realistically possible but there is no way it will be centered in the middle of the screen so I know I will lose gain. Craig suggested a 133" Da-Lite HP, and it looks like you can't get anything larger in 16:9 format with the HP material due to the native size of that material.

In short: Who else has paired an HW-50 with a Da-Lite HP in the larger sizes? What are your thoughts?


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