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post #4231 of 8765 Old 06-11-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Ron, hi, thanks for the input. I did think of this and tried rotating the glasses, I don't see any difference. The JVC RS46/X35 and Sony HW50 do not shut down the XPand 104 and MV3D's as much as the HC5. The Sharp 30K to an even lesser extent. This is the 2.8HP which I think we've collectively agreed that it doesn't retain much, if any polarized light.

I'm going back through the old Sony VW90 threads, I recall the same discussing about dim 3D and how different it was on the VW95 (brighter w/ less x-talk). I'm curious what changes Sony made between those models since the HC5 3D seems very similar to the comments on the VW90.



I think the biggest change from the 90 to the 95 in 3D performence difference ,was because of the "Dynamic Lamp Control Technology" ( the pulsing technique ) - which did as you said, lower the X-talk much and made it noticeably brighter ( the lamp was changed also - from LMP-H201 to a LMP-H202 , but both was a 200W bulb)


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post #4232 of 8765 Old 06-11-2013, 03:52 PM
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Zombie10k,
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post #4233 of 8765 Old 06-11-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by larryep View Post

thanks coderguy for the info.

If the jvcrs4810 and the sony50 where the same price with emitter, pair of glasses and extra lamp which would you guys go far?

I never saw the hw50 setup correctly, I saw it but it was having an HDMI problem so I couldn't use it.
I think I know a place that has one near me, I just haven't been there again yet.

As far as JVC vs. Sony, well I think as an ultimate movie experience you are going to be hard-pressed to beat the JVC due to the Native On/Off. Honestly, I'm really starting to value Native On/Off more and more since the past year or so. I was watching these SCI FI Series (ok no laughs now) - Walking Dead, Fallen Skies, Continuum, Game of Thrones, etc...

I was cringing at the contrast in Fallen Skies on several different projectors. Even the Epson didn't do it for me, the IRIS was too bouncy in the fire and shootout scenes. The Epson was bareable, but on the Benq I couldn't take it at all (it was unwatchable after being used to a JVC). I felt like someone turned the lights out in the dark scenes because of no contrast. These are some really dark shows though.

The trick to getting the JVC to look punchier in bright scenes is a custom gamma calibration. Maybe I am crazy (I won't argue), but if you don't have experience calibrating the gamma on a JVC, try the GAMMA D preset, but then alter it with the whitepoint gamma settings to make the 5-25 IRE lower / brighter and make the 70-95 IRE a little dimmer on the curve. The Gamma D preset is horribly crushing like the other gammas, but it has a good curve for bright scenes if you adjust it a little bit down at 70-95 IRE (well on my RS-45 anyhow). I really don't follow the perfect standards for GAMMA on a JVC projector, as I do custom stuff that looks best to me.

I don't see what people are saying about bright scenes in most cases, as a matter of fact I find the Benq w7000 to not be as good even in middle-average-brightness contrast scenes as my JVC. Oh it's definitely a bit punchier looking in the REALLY bright scenes, but I didn't buy a projector to watch a soap opera. I even find myself watching TV on the JVC now, no longer on the DLP. For that tiny boost in bright scenes, you get horrid dark-scene contrast, not worth it, and the boost in quality in bright scenes from other projectors really is pretty tiny. Motion is another issue I am no longer going to touch for a while...

I need a DLP that gives me 5000:1 Native On/Off at least but also has a good IRIS (so I can use DLP for TV again), we just don't have any. People said the w1070 was better than the hc4000 in dark scenes, but it wasn't, the hc4000 was still the NO IRIS champ, but the w1070 was better in every other way. If the w1070 really did almost 5,000:1 on/off like some claimed, I would have bought it, but it was more like 2,000:1 to 2,500:1 native on/off, not 5,000:1.


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post #4234 of 8765 Old 06-11-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I never saw the hw50 setup correctly, I saw it but it was having an HDMI problem so I couldn't use it.
I think I know a place that has one near me, I just haven't been there again yet.

As far as JVC vs. Sony, well I think as an ultimate movie experience you are going to be hard-pressed to beat the JVC due to the Native On/Off. Honestly, I'm really starting to value Native On/Off more and more since the past year or so. I was watching these SCI FI Series (ok no laughs now) - Walking Dead, Fallen Skies, Continuum, Game of Thrones, etc...

I was cringing at the contrast in Fallen Skies on several different projectors. Even the Epson didn't do it for me, the IRIS was too bouncy in the fire and shootout scenes. The Epson was bareable, but on the Benq I couldn't take it at all (it was unwatchable after being used to a JVC). I felt like someone turned the lights out in the dark scenes because of no contrast. These are some really dark shows though.

The trick to getting the JVC to look punchier in bright scenes is a custom gamma calibration. Maybe I am crazy (I won't argue), but if you don't have experience calibrating the gamma on a JVC, try the GAMMA D preset, but then alter it with the whitepoint gamma settings to make the 5-25 IRE lower / brighter and make the 70-95 IRE a little dimmer on the curve. The Gamma D preset is horribly crushing like the other gammas, but it has a good curve for bright scenes if you adjust it a little bit down at 70-95 IRE (well on my RS-45 anyhow). I really don't follow the perfect standards for GAMMA on a JVC projector, as I do custom stuff that looks best to me.

I don't see what people are saying about bright scenes in most cases, as a matter of fact I find the Benq w7000 to not be as good even in middle-average-brightness contrast scenes as my JVC. Oh it's definitely a bit punchier looking in the REALLY bright scenes, but I didn't buy a projector to watch a soap opera. I even find myself watching TV on the JVC now, no longer on the DLP. For that tiny boost in bright scenes, you get horrid dark-scene contrast, not worth it, and the boost in quality in bright scenes from other projectors really is pretty tiny. Motion is another issue I am no longer going to touch for a while...

I need a DLP that gives me 5000:1 Native On/Off at least but also has a good IRIS (so I can use DLP for TV again), we just don't have any. People said the w1070 was better than the hc4000 in dark scenes, but it wasn't, the hc4000 was still the NO IRIS champ, but the w1070 was better in every other way. If the w1070 really did almost 5,000:1 on/off like some claimed, I would have bought it, but it was more like 2,000:1 to 2,500:1 native on/off, not 5,000:1.

Whole reason my Marantz VP12S4 is still in my family room and not retired. It is a good DLP for TV viewing.

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post #4235 of 8765 Old 06-11-2013, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryep View Post

with all your shootouts with the jvc4810 did you run the lamp in normal or high mode when comparing?

I have asked this question in the JVC 4810 thread: what db is high lamp mode? under 29db should be fine, since my Sanyo plv70 runs at 35db.

sorry for all the questions but it has taken me 12 years to upgrade. that Sanyo has given me about 18000 hours of viewing and roughly 15 lamp purchased. shoot, it might be more!!eek.gif

I always run the lamp in high unless it's for a quick lumen check in low lamp. it's hard to go by the manufacturer db ratings since there is no standard how the manufacturers measure the sound. Moving a microphone just a few inches would change the DB rating by a fair amount.

I have my projectors about 2 feet away for my HP screen. I can hear it, but the tone doesn't bother me. My ears are more sensitive to the Epson 5020 and BQ W7000 in high lamp. The Sony HW50 is nearly silent in comparison, it's very quiet in high lamp.

i think you'll be ok considering the noise that Sanyo must have been making. That's impressive for it to live that long with so many lamps.
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post #4236 of 8765 Old 06-11-2013, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I think the biggest change from the 90 to the 95 in 3D performence difference ,was because of the "Dynamic Lamp Control Technology" ( the pulsing technique ) - which did as you said, lower the X-talk much and made it noticeably brighter ( the lamp was changed also - from LMP-H201 to a LMP-H202 , but both was a 200W bulb)


dj

DJ, thanks for the info, I forgot the VW95 had the pulsing technique. I thought the VW95 3D was decent, dimmer than the HW50 but better overall contrast. i'm curious if Sony will have the lamp pulsing in the next 4K model they come out with.
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post #4237 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 02:00 AM
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I have enjoyed 3d on my Sony VPL-HW50 but ultimately after seeing DLP 3d it requires too much leap of faith. The DLP is just plain better.I could never understand why people could not see all the flaws on the Epson 8500, 8700 and 9700. Now after having the Sonny VPL-HW50 I get it. For most Epson projector owners this is their first projector and wow it looks awesome until you put it up to a better projector. The Sony VPL-HW50 is a much more refined projector. The unit has much better convergence, white field uniformity, color out of the box, lower pixel signature, zero flaring and is a much quieter projector than the Epson projectors. If you are a casual viewer that just watches movies on weekend and some sports its not a big deal. If you use youur projector as your primary video source and use it to watch everything the Sony VPL-HW50 is the best bargain. I can honestly saw that at this price point it is the best overall projector I have viewed and each of the 5 samples I have looked at were very consistent in performance unlike the Epson projectors. This analagy holds trure for JVC 4810. Overall its better in 2d ( shadow detail on the Sony VPL-HW50 is better and color is better out of the box on the Sony ) but the JVC can be calibrated with a skilled tech. I agree with Zombie. I am not going to spend a lot of time with 3d.Its much better but still a moving target,
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post #4238 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by home theater View Post

I have enjoyed 3d on my Sony VPL-HW50 but ultimately after seeing DLP 3d it requires too much leap of faith. The DLP is just plain better.I could never understand why people could not see all the flaws on the Epson 8500, 8700 and 9700. Now after having the Sonny VPL-HW50 I get it. For most Epson projector owners this is their first projector and wow it looks awesome until you put it up to a better projector. The Sony VPL-HW50 is a much more refined projector. The unit has much better convergence, white field uniformity, color out of the box, lower pixel signature, zero flaring and is a much quieter projector than the Epson projectors. If you are a casual viewer that just watches movies on weekend and some sports its not a big deal. If you use youur projector as your primary video source and use it to watch everything the Sony VPL-HW50 is the best bargain. I can honestly saw that at this price point it is the best overall projector I have viewed and each of the 5 samples I have looked at were very consistent in performance unlike the Epson projectors. This analagy holds trure for JVC 4810. Overall its better in 2d ( shadow detail on the Sony VPL-HW50 is better and color is better out of the box on the Sony ) but the JVC can be calibrated with a skilled tech. I agree with Zombie. I am not going to spend a lot of time with 3d.Its much better but still a moving target,

I cant agree more with your post. I have a JvC RS45 and I could not watch 3d because of ghosting. I bought a low priced Benq W1070 DLP for 3D and the difference is amazing. No ghosting at all and it is also great for casual viewing. It does not have the blacks of the Sony and JVC but for under $1,000 adding the Benq worked for me.
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post #4239 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by home theater View Post

I have enjoyed 3d on my Sony VPL-HW50 but ultimately after seeing DLP 3d it requires too much leap of faith. The DLP is just plain better.I could never understand why people could not see all the flaws on the Epson 8500, 8700 and 9700. Now after having the Sonny VPL-HW50 I get it. For most Epson projector owners this is their first projector and wow it looks awesome until you put it up to a better projector. The Sony VPL-HW50 is a much more refined projector. The unit has much better convergence, white field uniformity, color out of the box, lower pixel signature, zero flaring and is a much quieter projector than the Epson projectors. If you are a casual viewer that just watches movies on weekend and some sports its not a big deal. If you use youur projector as your primary video source and use it to watch everything the Sony VPL-HW50 is the best bargain. I can honestly saw that at this price point it is the best overall projector I have viewed and each of the 5 samples I have looked at were very consistent in performance unlike the Epson projectors. This analagy holds trure for JVC 4810. Overall its better in 2d ( shadow detail on the Sony VPL-HW50 is better and color is better out of the box on the Sony ) but the JVC can be calibrated with a skilled tech. I agree with Zombie. I am not going to spend a lot of time with 3d.Its much better but still a moving target,

With the Epson, it depends how close you sit to how much of the flaws you notice for 2D. I think that is why you see some even experienced Epson owners (that came from a JVC) claim it is just as good as a JVC, though to me the IRIS is the one reason that even if you sit farther back it still doesn't match the JVC, but it does get closer to the JVC PQ the farther you sit back. So, let's say at 1.4x+ screen width (just estimating) then the Epson is pretty close looking to a JVC (except for the IRIS that the Epson uses). Maybe not even 1.4x, maybe 1.6x, but whatever that number is. I mean if you stand far enough away from the screen, the different projectors essentially all look similar at some point other than contrast.

Most of us don't sit that far back, so it's easier to see the imperfections. A well-converged Epson can have more POP in some scenes, that's the effect of the less dense pixel fill, so in certain closeups the Epson can look more 3Dish in 2D, but with that comes an EDGIER look (and sometimes that edgier look reverses the trend and causes a flatter look in other scenes). The build quality of the JVC's and Sony's is greater and they are quieter then the Epson, and the best modes on the JVC and Sony are slightly brighter (not that much since Epson has more throw range, plus it has a torch mode).

The Epson makes a great all-in-one projector if you sit farther back than some of us for both 2D and 3D. Even if you sit close the 3D is still good. I sit so close that I too easily notice the Epson's convergence and pixel fill (1.0x SW). LCOS produces a more consistent image in 2D, more film-like.
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post #4240 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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So if you sit far enough from the screen the Epson looks like all the other projectors? If I stand really far back, my Acer 5360 looks just like a Sim 2 Lumis.

I can't believe I wasted all this time comparing these models. biggrin.gifcool.gif
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post #4241 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

So if you sit far enough from the screen the Epson looks like all the other projectors? If I stand really far back, my Acer 5360 looks just like a Sim 2 Lumis.

I can't believe I wasted all this time comparing these models. biggrin.gifcool.gif

Turn them off and they are completely indistinguishable.

There's room here for a bunch of totally irrational comparisons for you Zombie...

- Can you compare the fan noise between units when they are unplugged?
- With the lamp off how does the convergence of the Sony compare to the JVC?
- How does 3D compare on the various units with the signal cable disconnected?

biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif


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post #4242 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 02:19 PM
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Turn them off and they are completely indistinguishable.

I also heard that turning them off improves black levels too. biggrin.gif
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post #4243 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

So if you sit far enough from the screen the Epson looks like all the other projectors? If I stand really far back, my Acer 5360 looks just like a Sim 2 Lumis.

I can't believe I wasted all this time comparing these models. biggrin.gifcool.gif

+1
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post #4244 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

So if you sit far enough from the screen the Epson looks like all the other projectors? If I stand really far back, my Acer 5360 looks just like a Sim 2 Lumis.

I can't believe I wasted all this time comparing these models. biggrin.gifcool.gif

Haha... My 13" Black and White CRT looks like an Imax Projection from 500 yards away.
I think that is being purely intrepid and not related to what I meant.

I wasn't speaking in such generalities, but in the sense of the CLOSER you sit the more you notice the edginess and noise and what not. I usually say pixel fill or some specific point, but it goes beyond just pixel fill, it goes to the entire look of the image. It doesn't have to be an ALL or nothing thing, I just meant on a sliding scale, the closer you get the more differences you see between all these projectors (some people forget that).

Remember, only about 10% or 20% of the people in here are veteran users (yes I made up that statistic), a lot of newbs read this thread.
That post wasn't for the veterans, that post was for the newbs.

You'd be surprised just how far back some of these people sit, you should visit the sub-3k forum more often.


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post #4245 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 03:07 PM
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Turn them off and they are completely indistinguishable.

What you guys aren't thinking about is the HUGE variance that so many non-veteran projector users sit. Some people sit 15 feet back from 100" screen, some people sit 8' back.
Point being if you sit really far back, the 2D projector choice isn't as important if you are into 3D and want a single-setup projector. But what do I know, I've spent time helping 1000+ newbs setup their projectors in the sub-3k forum.


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post #4246 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walterappleby View Post

Turn them off and they are completely indistinguishable.

There's room here for a bunch of totally irrational comparisons for you Zombie...

- Can you compare the fan noise between units when they are unplugged?
- With the lamp off how does the convergence of the Sony compare to the JVC?
- How does 3D compare on the various units with the signal cable disconnected?

biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif


Just having some fun... not a personal attack on anyone.

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I also heard that turning them off improves black levels too. biggrin.gif

you guys have a pretty good sense of humor. I know the shoot-out thread has tons of info to root through but the idea was to provide a deep dive comparison of the models that we generally don't get in some of the other reviews.
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post #4247 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 03:15 PM
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My best post was when someone said "I am getting the Epson and it can do 400,000:1 on/off".

I told them, I have the Benq w7000 and it can do well into the millions in dynamic on/off, and that is NO LIE.
The w7000 can fully close the IRIS so that the Dynamic On/Off ratio is immeasurable.

Of course the projector's IRIS becomes just a tad over-aggressive, but it is pretty funny. The projector with the worst blacks can have the highest dynamic on/off, if you want it to. Shows how useless that measurement really can be.


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post #4248 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


you guys have a pretty good sense of humor. I know the shoot-out thread has tons of info to root through but the idea was to provide a deep dive comparison of the models that we generally don't get in some of the other reviews.

The shoot-out and review threads are great. I am a research-a-holic and love to read up before making my decision. I myself wound up with the HW50 and love it. I still have not put as many hours on the projector as I had researching it though. tongue.gif
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post #4249 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 03:47 PM
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Yes, there is a lot of good info in here by Zombie in the most objective non-BIAS format possible.
It is funny the years and years of experience some reviewers have, and they still don't get it.
Some online reviews feel like they are purely copy and pasted (well SOME are).


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post #4250 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 03:49 PM
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At the same price, I might lean towards the 4810 depending on the setup. With the current 3D firmware and the crosstalk controls set to '6', it's not much dimmer in 3D vs. the HW50. The HW50 drops to ~800 lumens in 3D with a D65 calibration through the glasses.
Has there been a 3D firmware update for the RS4810? I thought the only 3D firmware update released for the current crop of JVC projectors was for the RS46/X35.
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There was for the RS-46 but I assume it was added/included in the current or recent shipping ones. I think Zombie had one of the earlier shipments so he had to update it. He'll respond soon enough.

I'm checking into getting an RS-48 to replace my RS-45, probably won't, but I might.


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post #4252 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Has there been a 3D firmware update for the RS4810? I thought the only 3D firmware update released for the current crop of JVC projectors was for the RS46/X35.

Hi, there is only 1 firmware for the 4810, the update was for the X35/46 to bring it up to the same performance as the 4810. When I said 'current', I was referring to the entire line of the new models.
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post #4253 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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There's been plenty of 2D discussion as well, close ups of pixel structure, comparisons of the various enhancement techniques (RC vs. E-shift vs. Super Resolution), deep dives into calibration, etc.

The topic of Epson's pixel structure and viewing distance was discussed on several different occasions in this thread and last year's shootout thread as well.

I sit 14" feet (1.25 sw) from my 142" 16:9. I'm just outside the threshold of the pixel structure being an issue on the 5020. Once in a while I'd see a pattern during motion that I thought was the visible pixel structure. This seating distance isn't any issue for my 2 DLP's, the W7000 and the Sharp 30K. Both are near pixel perfect sharp.

The wide pixel spacing on the Epson 5020 does create a perception of increased sharpness once outside the threshold. However the images still doesn't feel as solid as the LCOS and SXRD projectors.

That dark room of yours is screaming for the X55 @ -11 on the iris.
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post #4254 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 07:44 PM
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I agree with Coderguy on the fact that the Epson LCD projectors have an "edgy" look to them. They definitely don't look as natural as LCOS or DLP typically does.
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post #4255 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I agree with Coderguy on the fact that the Epson LCD projectors have an "edgy" look to them. They definitely don't look as natural as LCOS or DLP typically does.

I'm not an expert but I will second this. I had the 1080UB and loved it until I got a DLP and there is "something" more natural to DLP. Then I moved to SXRD and I have to tell you, it also has that "something" that my Epson (and my prior Mits LCD as well) doesn't have. Edgy is a great word for it IMHO.

Living the HT Dream...now in 4D.
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post #4256 of 8765 Old 06-12-2013, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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since we're talking about it, let's go back and take a quick look at the Epson 5020 vs. The Sony HW50.

Epson 5020:

pixels.jpg

pixels1.jpg

pixels3.jpg

pixels4.jpg

pixels5.jpg

pixels8.jpg

pixels6.jpg

The Epson pixel structure is a little shocking when you first see it. The first thought is how can this look good on a big screen? But somehow it works and it looks pretty darn good. There are caveats though. White / Grey field uniformity on the LCD's is, imo, average at best. This is something that really bothers me. It's probably because I have a very bright and relatively large screen. Blacking out the room has made me even more sensitive to it.

I found the 5020 tolerable and the Panasonic 8000 unbearable, it's a deal breaker for me on that model. If you think the HW50 looks good in the screenshot, the JVC's are better. Mitsubishi HC5 is pretty good in this regard, maybe a hair under the HW50.

Want a surprise? The Mitsubishi HC8000 didn't have great uniformity. Not sure how this manifests itself, but it was odd to see on a DLP. My BenQ W7000 and Sharp 30K are just about flawless in this regard.

I'll say that I'd rather have the Epson 5020 for $2500 than my Mitsubishi HC5500 that I paid the same price for in 2008. cool.gif
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post #4257 of 8765 Old 06-13-2013, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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HC5 vs. RS55 in 2D - info will be posted over the next few days.

HC5-RS55.jpg
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post #4258 of 8765 Old 06-13-2013, 05:35 AM
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Mitsubishi DLP's often have white level uniformity problems, most of them do (but each sample varies), but it's not the same problem as LCD exactly (even though it looks like it). I've owned a few, the white uniformity problem becomes less noticeable as the lamp ages. It is usually a RED or PINK imbalance that you see across the screen (sometimes green too). It reduces with lamp age much better than it does on an LCD (no idea why). This is a sample variance issue, some of the Mits DLP's have much less error than others. I've seen so many older Mits DLP's (2008-2010), because three people I know all owned them (including myself), and we set them up for a few people as well, and we did some exchanges to get better ones (which gave us even more exposure). The biggest problem with the Mits DLP's was the focus uniformity (I never owned an hc7800 or hc8000 though, just older little brother units). The disappointment was when you described the Mits DLP LENS to me, it sounded exactly like the Mits hc4000 LENS. Still, the projector was sharp from seating distance as long as you do not focus it from the center (this is definitely a projector that needs focusing 1/3rd to 1/4th out from the center). It didn't completely get rid of the focus error, but it makes it more negligible. It's a shame because the image is very sharp, they just never could get the focus perfect like Benq's are. The white level uniformity error isn't the worst problem IMO, it just looks really more significant on a new lamp.

I know theoretically lamp age shouldn't affect color uniformity as far as the balance (and doesn't as much on LCD's AFIK), but it did appear to on the Mits DLP's. I mean the lamp could affect the color that was off itself, but not the raw uniformity %, but I'm just saying I think even the raw uniformity % was affected on those DLP's possibly due to the amount of heat the lamp was producing at a given time.


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post #4259 of 8765 Old 06-13-2013, 05:52 AM
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HC5 vs. RS55 in 2D - info will be posted over the next few days.
Awesome. Lucky 555s.
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post #4260 of 8765 Old 06-13-2013, 10:57 AM
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HC5 vs. RS55 in 2D - info will be posted over the next few

Spoiler alert... The JVC destroys the HC5. If not then I have little faith left in what JVC can bring to the table in regards to 1080p projection.
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