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post #4321 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

When watching the ISO, you'll find that it will skip quite a bit at certain chapter changes basically making it unwatchable.

The good news is MakeMVK does a great job at fixing this. I believe the majority of the Disney titles use the seamless branching.

So trial and error, it would seem is the methodology to determine if a title has seamless branching. Too bad there is not a thread with a list of seamless branching titles; I will have to look on the Mede8er forum.

Thanks!

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post #4322 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 09:50 AM
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Chances are if the movie has both a theatrical and extended cut or anything similar where you have extra content that you're able to add or alter the main movie in some way, it's going to have seamless branching. This is what I was referring to earlier about making sure to use eac3to when remuxing to matroska. Seamless branching only works correctly when you take care of the audio gaps.

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post #4323 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Chances are if the movie has both a theatrical and extended cut or anything similar where you have extra content that you're able to add or alter the main movie in some way, it's going to have seamless branching. This is what I was referring to earlier about making sure to use eac3to when remuxing to matroska. Seamless branching only works correctly when you take care of the audio gaps.

Seegs,

I know you have posted this ("use eac3to when remuxing to matroska") twice, but since it is still Greek to me, I decided a little Googling was in order.

For everyone else's edification:

eac3to is able to convert E-AC3 and TrueHD audio tracks to AC3 or FLAC and other audio functions related to Blu-ray files

Matroska file extensions are .MKV for video (with subtitles and audio), .MK3D for stereoscopic video

So, now that I understand a little more about what you posted, are you saying that MakeMKV will not do the job for seamless branching titles, or you just prefer using eac3to?

Thanks.

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post #4324 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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this is getting confusing, I've used MakeMKV successfully for a number of seamless branch 3D titles.

The latest was 'OZ' 3D (another disney title) that showed 2 different length titles. I was able to extract out both without issue. Played the entire movie with no skipping or audio sync issues.

seegs - what is the exact problem you've run into with MakeMKV? Can you provide a specific title so I can test this?
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post #4325 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 10:21 AM
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You think it went sucessfully. Yes, you have merged the files into a single matroska file, but MakeMKV doesn't get rid of the audio gap present when merging the m2ts files together. The only program that I know of that does this properly is eac3to. What you get in the end is roughly a ~10ms gap per merged file, which is why I said it gets worse the more files you merge without doing it properly. Some titles can have up to a dozen files that need to be merged into one.

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post #4326 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 10:28 AM
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Here is an example of the extended version of A Good Day to Die Hard that I recently remuxed.
Quote:
eac3to wrote:
M2TS, 1 video track, 6 audio tracks, 22 subtitle tracks, 2:04:08, 24p /1.001
1: h264/AVC, 1080p24 /1.001 (16:9)
2: DTS Master Audio, English, 7.1 (strange setup) channels, 24 bits, 48kHz
(core: DTS-ES, 5.1 channels, 24 bits, 1509kbps, 48kHz)
3: DTS, French, 5.1 channels, 768kbps, 48kHz
4: DTS, Spanish, 5.1 channels, 768kbps, 48kHz
5: DTS, Russian, 5.1 channels, 768kbps, 48kHz
6: AC3, Ukrainian, 5.1 channels, 448kbps, 48kHz
7: AC3, English, 2.0 channels, 224kbps, 48kHz
8: Subtitle (PGS), English
9: Subtitle (PGS), French
10: Subtitle (PGS), Spanish
11: Subtitle (PGS), Danish
12: Subtitle (PGS), Dutch
13: Subtitle (PGS), Finnish
14: Subtitle (PGS), Norwegian
15: Subtitle (PGS), Russian
16: Subtitle (PGS), Swedish
17: Subtitle (PGS), Estonian
18: Subtitle (PGS), Latvian
19: Subtitle (PGS), Lithuanian
20: Subtitle (PGS), Ukrainian
21: Subtitle (PGS), French
22: Subtitle (PGS), Spanish
23: Subtitle (PGS), Danish
24: Subtitle (PGS), Dutch
25: Subtitle (PGS), Finnish
26: Subtitle (PGS), Norwegian
27: Subtitle (PGS), Russian
28: Subtitle (PGS), Swedish
29: Subtitle (PGS), English
[a02] Extracting audio track number 2...
[a02] Creating file "track2.dtsma"...
[a02] Skipping identical DTS frames (seamless branching)...
[a02] Audio overlaps for 14ms at playtime 0:05:26.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 9ms at playtime 0:06:38.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 10ms at playtime 0:14:11.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 8ms at playtime 0:20:10.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 12ms at playtime 0:22:36.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 10ms at playtime 0:24:18.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 13ms at playtime 0:38:20.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 9ms at playtime 0:40:27.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 14ms at playtime 0:47:43.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 8ms at playtime 0:52:26.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 5ms at playtime 0:53:04.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 8ms at playtime 1:00:32.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 10ms at playtime 1:02:37.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 7ms at playtime 1:04:00.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 10ms at playtime 1:06:57.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 8ms at playtime 1:07:50.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 6ms at playtime 1:08:24.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 7ms at playtime 1:08:45.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 6ms at playtime 1:09:16.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 5ms at playtime 1:10:26.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 8ms at playtime 1:21:10.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 6ms at playtime 1:28:54.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 7ms at playtime 1:37:36.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 5ms at playtime 1:37:39.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 10ms at playtime 1:38:11.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 7ms at playtime 1:46:58.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 11ms at playtime 1:51:26.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 7ms at playtime 1:52:55.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 8ms at playtime 1:53:40.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 9ms at playtime 1:57:03.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 7ms at playtime 2:00:22.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 10ms at playtime 2:01:46.
[a02] Audio overlaps for 9ms at playtime 2:02:16.
[a02] Starting 2nd pass...
[a02] Realizing DTS gaps...
[a02] Creating file "track2.dtsma"...
Video track 1 contains 178628 frames.
eac3to processing took 14 minutes, 16 seconds.
Done.

eac3to gets rid of these gaps, MakeMKV and MKVtoolnix does not.

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post #4327 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I used eac3to years ago to merge the seamless branch files for my old PCH-A110 into a single m2ts file, I think spiderman was one of the first titles I converted.

OZ had a ton of branches files, shouldn't I see a noticeable audio sync issue by the end of the movie, or does it reset on each merge?
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post #4328 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 10:34 AM
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It depends on how many branched files there are. As you can see with A Good Day to Die Hard if you were to use MakeMKV the gap by the end of the movie is close to 300ms.

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post #4329 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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someone in the MakeMKV forum is claiming the program is adjusting for the skew.


Saving 1 titles into directory D:/Rip/MKV/Finding Nemo (2003)
AV synchronization issues were found in file 'D:/Rip/MKV/Finding Nemo (2003)/Finding Nemo (2003).mkv' (title #5)
AV sync issue in stream 2,3,4 at 0:04:45.785 with duration of 6.5ms : encountered overlapping frame, audio skew is +6.5ms
AV sync issue in stream 2,3,4 at 0:05:38.046 with duration of 27.458ms : encountered overlapping frame, audio skew is +33.958ms
AV sync issue in stream 2,3,4 at 0:05:38.080 with duration of 32ms : 1 frame(s) dropped to reduce audio skew to +1.958ms

Did you try MakeMKV with a good day to die hard? 300ms should be very obvious by the end of the movie.
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post #4330 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 10:55 AM
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They must have added this feature recently then. I don't use it. Eac3to is useful for a bunch of other things I do so I use it instead. Plus I know that i'ts doing it's job correctly, so there's no point in trying it only to be disappointed in the end.

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post #4331 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll have to do some reading to see if it can handle the frame packed 3D MVC format.

I'll try both methods (eac3to) and MakeMKV on a good day to die hard, I'm curious if I'll see any difference at the end of the title.
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post #4332 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'll have to do some reading to see if it can handle the frame packed 3D MVC format.

I'll try both methods (eac3to) and MakeMKV on a good day to die hard, I'm curious if I'll see any difference at the end of the title.

You should just be able to skip to the end and watch him say the final words, which are probably going to be "Yippe Kay Yay, M!@#$%^" If the lips follow, you are good. smile.gifwink.gif

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post #4333 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sensitive to audio sync issues, Oz 3D was a long movie with a larger # of branches. The audio was dead on at the end of the movie.

I think this is a non-issue with the current version of MakeMKV but I'll check again to be certain. I've used it to convert some of the 3D Disney titles like Tangled, Nemo, Tinkerbell, etc.
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post #4334 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Zombie, when will we hear the rest of comparison?

I should wrap up by the end of this weekend so I can send our friend Speedplay his new toy.
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post #4335 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I should wrap up by the end of this weekend so I can send our friend Speedplay his new toy.

Well hurry up. tongue.gif


Did you notice shadow detail improving? I feel like I am missing out on something here but am so busy have not made time to get a color sensor and HCFR SW or something. I need some motivation or someone to hold my hand. Did you notice improvement for this with all your fancy calibration stuff? smile.gif

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post #4336 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


I think this is a non-issue with the current version of MakeMKV

I have been using MakeMKV for at least a year without any issues with seamless branching or audio sync problems of any sort.
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post #4337 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

I have been using MakeMKV for at least a year without any issues with seamless branching or audio sync problems of any sort.

thanks. I was assuming that he was currently using the program and knew for certain it was an issue. I've converted a number of movies with it, i'm certain I would have seen an obvious audio issue by now.
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post #4338 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 06:52 PM
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Definitely do your due diligence. If they have added this feature that'd great. I was only recommending eac3to because I know it's had this feature since day one basically.

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post #4339 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

You think it went sucessfully. Yes, you have merged the files into a single matroska file, but MakeMKV doesn't get rid of the audio gap present when merging the m2ts files together. The only program that I know of that does this properly is eac3to. What you get in the end is roughly a ~10ms gap per merged file, which is why I said it gets worse the more files you merge without doing it properly. Some titles can have up to a dozen files that need to be merged into one.

in this post you mentioned that MakeMKV doesn't get rid of the audio gap which I was assuming you had tested and I was missing something. The post I found discussing that it gets rid of the gap was over 8 months ago, they must have fixed this a while back.
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post #4340 of 8973 Old 06-20-2013, 07:23 PM
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It didn't in the past. MakeMKV has been around for a long time, even if this was implemented within the last six months it is a recent change.

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post #4341 of 8973 Old 06-21-2013, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

I have been using MakeMKV for at least a year without any issues with seamless branching or audio sync problems of any sort.

it looks like this issue was fixed sometime in late 2011. I converted a number of Disney and Pixar 3D BD's last night, there were no audio issues with the resulting MKV file.

I think it's safe to say the current version has no issues with the audio gaps on the seamless branch disks.

make_mkv1.jpg


I had to delete this awful movie after doing this test. They killed the franchise with this bomb of a sequel.
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post #4342 of 8973 Old 06-22-2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

In July 2011, The Mitsubishi HC9000 had an MSRP of $9999 with a MAP (minimum advertised prices) of $5995. By all visual accounts, the HC5 and HC9000 are the same projector...

....For 2D it's a great bargain at the $1799 price. I can't recommend it for 3D, even casual viewing. the highly criticized JVC 3D is without a doubt better which is hard to say but it's true.

I respectfully beg to differ on the HC5 and 3D. Just got my HC9000D replacement HC5 and i watched 3 3D movies Wreck It Ralph, Tron Legacy, and Prometheus and the 3D is superb.

I believe the IR to RF conversion in your Monstervision may be introducing latency and ghosting.

Have you tried the HC5 with Mitsubishi IR glasses yet? You should and then maibe you will see what I am talking about.
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post #4343 of 8973 Old 06-22-2013, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

I respectfully beg to differ on the HC5 and 3D. Just got my HC9000D replacement HC5 and i watched 3 3D movies Wreck It Ralph, Tron Legacy, and Prometheus and the 3D is superb.

I believe the IR to RF conversion in your Monstervision may be introducing latency and ghosting.

Have you tried the HC5 with Mitsubishi IR glasses yet? You should and then maibe you will see what I am talking about.

You have to understand that he is talking comparatively to the extensive amount of 3D projectors that he has seen, measured, calibrated, scrutinized and reviewed. You also need to take into account the very low amount of hours you have on your HC5. It's going to start off pretty decent and only go downhill from there. DLP is the king of active 3D currently. Most of them have absolutely no crosstalk, flicker, or other abnormalities, whereas all 3LCD and LCOS based projectors do. It may be great for you and you may enjoy it, but in comparison a DLP 3D experience trumps them all by a fair margin.

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post #4344 of 8973 Old 06-23-2013, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
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The crosstalk on the Xpand 104 IR glasses is identical to the Monster Vision 3D RF when used on the HC5 projector. Several other HC5 owners with the Mitsubishi glasses have confirmed the same findings.

This review 2 years ago was done with the OEM glasses and matches what we've seen during the testing

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/2011/07/hdtv-expert-product-review-mitsubishi-hc9000-diamond-3d-projector.php

Mits-Glasses-Text-Chart-MR.jpg

Mits-Glasses-Level-MR.jpg

if we move these glasses to different 3D projectors, they will respond to the performance limitations of the specific model. For example, on the 1st and 2nd generation JVC, you will see the typical dark on light ghosting visible with the JVC glasses. Sony HW30/50/VW95, performance is the same as the Sony glasses. Move them to the Sharp 30K and there is no crosstalk to be seen because it's not possible with the DLP's.

If we're comparing the 2 key factors of 3D performance (crosstalk & flicker) :

HC5 < 1st & 2nd generation JVC < 3rd Generation JVC < Sony HW30/50/95 ~ Epson 5010/5020 < Benq W7000 & Sharp 30K.

The Epson definitely has better control over perceived flicker than the Sony and JVC. JVC did a heck of a job fixing the 3D this year at the expense of some other areas of performance (contrast and overall brightness). still impressive whatever trick they used.

The 3D on the Sharp 30K is excellent. It has perfect 3D qualities of the BenQ W7000 but the perceived contrast in 3D is noticeably better on the Sharp 30K. i'm certain much of this had to with the DLP flash used on the BQ in addition to DC2 vs. DC3. The 3D lumen output is best matched with an HP screen, but this is a very impressive combo when the setup allows.


If you guys are enjoying the 3D, that's good news. having a standard frame of reference can sometimes spoil the fun. I remember getting my JVC RS40 in 2010 and thinking something was wrong since I hadn't seen x-talk or flicker before. My only reference to 3D was the Acer 5360 which was shockingly good for it's very low cost.
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post #4345 of 8973 Old 06-23-2013, 04:39 AM
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where can i find the pronto hex codes for the JVC-RS4810 PROJECTOR?
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post #4346 of 8973 Old 06-23-2013, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

You have to understand that he is talking comparatively to the extensive amount of 3D projectors that he has seen, measured, calibrated, scrutinized and reviewed. You also need to take into account the very low amount of hours you have on your HC5. It's going to start off pretty decent and only go downhill from there. DLP is the king of active 3D currently. Most of them have absolutely no crosstalk, flicker, or other abnormalities, whereas all 3LCD and LCOS based projectors do. It may be great for you and you may enjoy it, but in comparison a DLP 3D experience trumps them all by a fair margin.

I suspect you are right, have DLP PJs started having good lens shift ranges yet?
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post #4347 of 8973 Old 06-23-2013, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

I suspect you are right, have DLP PJs started having good lens shift ranges yet?

A very few DLP projectors (e.g., Sharp XV-Z30000) have a fairly wide range vertical lens shift adjustment. Most have no lens shift adjustment or a very limited adjustment range (e.g., BenQ W1070, W1500). Also some DLPs have a very large offset (e.g., several Optoma models) that require the projector to be placed well above or well below the screen.

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post #4348 of 8973 Old 06-23-2013, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I suspect you are right, have DLP PJs started having good lens shift ranges yet?

there's no suspicion, it's been well documented in this thread. smile.gif

There's several 3D DLP's that have the same general lens shift range as the typical SXRD/LCOS projectors. The BenQ W7000 and the Sharp XV-Z30000 can be placed just about anywhere, ceiling mount or shelf mount like I use for my High Power screen.

The HC5 is a great 2D projector with some limitations in 3D that has been discussed by other HC5/HC9000 owners as well as a number of professional reviews that coincide with our findings in the shootout thread. The factory glasses perform the same as the Xpand 104 and Monster Vision 3D glasses. Crosstalk will not be as evident in a 3D movie like Tron or Prometheus. It's generally high contrast scenes where's it most obvious.

lamp age can have a noticeable effect on 3D performance on non-DLP projectors. It's as good as it gets when it's brand new and may deteriorate over time as we've seen with the JVC and Epson models.

imo, there more than 6 good 3D blurays (I have every 3D title that's been released). Though it's a shame some of the most impressive titles are not available in the US and must be imported.

http://www.ezydvd.com.au/blu-ray/art-of-flight-the-blu-ray-3d/dp/6119465
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post #4349 of 8973 Old 06-23-2013, 08:12 AM
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What a great thread. It's certainly a lot to digest and understand but very helpful.

I've been looking at a lot of setups for my 12x19 dedicated room. I -think- I've narrowed it down to:

BenQ W7000 ($1500)
Mitsubishi HC7800D ($1100)
EPSON 3020 ($1500)

I do like both the Panasonic ae8000, Sharp XV-Z30000 and the JVC DLAX30 but just not sure that I need or will even notice the $1000 price difference. (though there is a used JVC for $2000).

I do want to good 3D, but won't spend a ton of time in 3D, mostly movies and video games in 2D.

Help push me in the right direction?
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post #4350 of 8973 Old 06-23-2013, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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How important is the gaming? the lag time can vary from model to model depending on how serious the gamer is.

A good choice to add to the list is the Epson 5010. You can find these for ~$1500 on ebay. 2D and 3D is very good on this model and has better contrast than the projectors you just listed.

The 5010 has a 'torch' mode which can crank out some big lumens at the expense of color accuracy.. It's good for sports / ambient light viewing.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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