Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 154 - AVS Forum
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post #4591 of 9106 Old 08-20-2013, 02:43 PM
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To throw this out there, the Seymour Screen Excellence 4K AT material (1.0 gain) is just excellent stuff, if you're looking to hide your center channel behind the screen like I do. Nothing adds to the illusion of sound more than a hidden center channel, and the weave on this material is just excellent. You really can't tell it's acoustically transparent. It pairs really well with my HW30ES. Just don't spill anything on it, since apparently it's hard to clean (haven't had to find out, yet, thankfully!).
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post #4592 of 9106 Old 08-20-2013, 02:49 PM
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Chris tells me you can literally throw it in the washing machine with a mild detergent, like Woolite. It will be wrinkled but those will come out once its mounted back on the frame.


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post #4593 of 9106 Old 08-20-2013, 05:28 PM
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Enjoy your screen and try and erase mine and Charles posts out of your memory! tongue.gif Chances are you wont even see what we are talking about as most obviously don't since you never hear about it. No screen is perfect and the Carada is great bang/buck. I do wish they would at least put the screen material in a protective cardboard tube though which would no doubt reduce and maybe eliminate the wrinkles!

Well it definitely has to be an improvement over 100" elite screen that I am upgrading from that I used with my 8500ub. The elite had sparkles like crazy and drove me nuts. Other than that I was ok with it. So we'll see how that carada is at 134"!

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post #4594 of 9106 Old 08-20-2013, 07:18 PM
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So, you know the saying sh*t or get off the pot. Well, I'm partially paralyzed. One cheek stuck to the pot. Haha!!!

On the other hand I have to do something. I spent the money doing the room over in preperation for a proejctor and the status quo just won't do. Argh!!!!! The decision of what to get shouldn't be this difficult frown.gif
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post #4595 of 9106 Old 08-20-2013, 10:41 PM
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Chris tells me you can literally throw it in the washing machine with a mild detergent, like Woolite. It will be wrinkled but those will come out once its mounted back on the frame.

That might work for a fixed-frame. But mine is in a retractable housing. biggrin.gif So I'd be screwed!
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post #4596 of 9106 Old 08-21-2013, 06:28 AM
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Ah - yeah you wouldn't be able to fit that housing in the washer. wink.gif


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post #4597 of 9106 Old 08-21-2013, 06:33 AM
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So, you know the saying sh*t or get off the pot. Well, I'm partially paralyzed. One cheek stuck to the pot. Haha!!!

On the other hand I have to do something. I spent the money doing the room over in preperation for a proejctor and the status quo just won't do. Argh!!!!! The decision of what to get shouldn't be this difficult frown.gif

What size screen, What throw, what do you want to use your projector for and what is your room like?

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post #4598 of 9106 Old 08-21-2013, 04:26 PM
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What size screen, What throw, what do you want to use your projector for and what is your room like?

See post 4591 or even easier see the first post on this page. William quoted my posting and it's all in there. Short version is 108" diagonal, lens about 11ft, tv/sports 80% and movies 20%. Looking forward to 3D. Usage could be 50hrs per week. Room is dark (black ceiling, 6ft black side wall, rest dark grey) with recessed dimmable lighting.
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post #4599 of 9106 Old 08-21-2013, 06:56 PM
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See post 4591 or even easier see the first post on this page. William quoted my posting and it's all in there. Short version is 108" diagonal, lens about 11ft, tv/sports 80% and movies 20%. Looking forward to 3D. Usage could be 50hrs per week. Room is dark (black ceiling, 6ft black side wall, rest dark grey) with recessed dimmable lighting.

Yep, I quoted you, spent a nice chunk of time replying, and you IGNORED ME! mad.gifmad.gifmad.gifmad.gif

Na, not serious (for the most part). wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #4600 of 9106 Old 08-21-2013, 07:15 PM
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William: I appreciate the time and thought you put into the reply. I'm weighing it and other replies. Hence my paralysis.

Coderguy got me thinking with his comment about the amount of hours i'll be putting on the projector in one year. It's a tough call. I like the quietness of the Sony's and that they arent LCD. Not sure I like that the 30es came out in 2011. It's almost like i'd be buying a 2 year old projector. The 50es is more than I'd like to spend. The Epson has the nice warranty with 2 day replacement and the free lamp. The w1070 is cheap and buying it puts me $2k ahead in saving for a new projector come like Jan 2015 and who knows what might be available then. I realy want something for the start of NFL as I host Sunday football and I'm also looking forward to viewing 3D at home.
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post #4601 of 9106 Old 08-21-2013, 07:39 PM
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buy whatever you want and use it i say. no sense in not using it because of hrs on a bulb.... my 2 cents.

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post #4602 of 9106 Old 08-21-2013, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by squigly1 View Post

William: I appreciate the time and thought you put into the reply. I'm weighing it and other replies. Hence my paralysis.

Coderguy got me thinking with his comment about the amount of hours i'll be putting on the projector in one year. It's a tough call. I like the quietness of the Sony's and that they arent LCD. Not sure I like that the 30es came out in 2011. It's almost like i'd be buying a 2 year old projector. The 50es is more than I'd like to spend. The Epson has the nice warranty with 2 day replacement and the free lamp. The w1070 is cheap and buying it puts me $2k ahead in saving for a new projector come like Jan 2015 and who knows what might be available then. I realy want something for the start of NFL as I host Sunday football and I'm also looking forward to viewing 3D at home.

Buy the W1070. I had the W7000 which throws the same picture as the W1070 during last football season. It was excellent, then I had the W1070 for the NBA season, and it was excellent too. 3D is good and movies are not that bad for a sub $1000 projector. For the money, you can't go wrong plus its rated at 6000hrs on the bulb
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post #4603 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 04:58 AM
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It's not the bulb life hours but the comment about potential panel degredation (at least with repsect to Sony and spending 4K)) with those kind of hours that got me rethinking. The projector is replacing a TV and will be getting the same amount of use the TV did. I'm going (or at least hoping) to make a decision by the end of this weekend so I can get the projector and screen here and set up in time for kickoff Thursday.
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post #4604 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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HW50vsEpson5010.jpg

The HW50 is the same basic design since the HW10, HW20 and HW30. All have been out for years with no reports of panel degradation.

I'm not sure about Canada, but it has a 3 year warranty when purchased in the US.

The 5020 is also a good projector, overall they have comparable PQ when calibrated. The Sony definitely has better color out of the box. The gamma and color gamut are very close to perfect which is unusual for projectors in this price category.

let me know if you have any specific questions, I've studied both of these projectors in a direct A/B configuration for quite a while when they were released.


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post #4605 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 05:46 AM
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I too debated about 5020 and the hw50es. in the end I realized I wanted to try and give sony a chance since my epson 8500ub blew bulbs and just didn't impress me 100% during time I owned it.

I don't think degradation is something you have to worry about with sony. Like zombie said. It has a 3 year warranty and a 2nd buib. So that helps your odds.

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post #4606 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 06:38 AM
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So 80% TV/Sports and 20% movies. Looking forward to 3D at home. Motion blur when watching sports like hockey is a concern. Sony and Epson both have 3 year warranty though Epson has the 2 day replacement program which is nice as I'd hate to be without something to view for sometime while the device is in for repair. Both come with spare bulb and 2 3D glasses. Epson $1000 cheaper. Benq $2000 cheaper then Epson. Projector at or close to but in front of seating but SOny quieter than Epson or Benq. Not sure I understand the DI thing and the loudness of it with respect to Epson. Watching TV/Sports will have some lights in room on though not near screen end of room. With all that I'd really like not to spend the extra $1000 and get the Sony 50es over the Epson but would if it was the best choice. Screen will be 1.0 gain white.

So, get the Epson, soend the extra $1k and get Sony or save $2k, get the w1070 and have that money save for the upgrade in a year or two?
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post #4607 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 06:47 AM
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5020 doesn't come with a builb. the 6020 does. at least here in the states. but in the states the sony isn't 1k more either. I also think the sony es warranty is better. They don't give refurbs for first 90days I think. They give brand new one. epson does refurbs.

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post #4608 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 06:47 AM
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5020 doesn't come with a builb. the 6020 does. at least here in the states. but in the states the sony isn't 1k more either. I also think the sony es warranty is better. They don't give refurbs for first 90days I think. They give brand new one. epson does refurbs.

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post #4609 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 09:14 AM
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The main reason I recommended a DLP over the Sony was because he said he wanted to put thousands of hours on it per year (and use it like a TV with constant on/off's). The DLP is much cheaper so if it breaks it is just not as big of an issue.

LCD and LCOS still lose some contrast or the colors almost always degrade EVENTUALLY (at what point hard to say), it is just that most people don't notice. I don't know the exact amount (no-one does), but in the past Sony projectors started losing contrast and/or color fidelity around 1000-8000 hours - depending on luck, the newer ones can take more of a beating. The tech does have SOME degradation, it is inherent in the tech even with inorganic panels, it's not just the panels themselves that can have an issue, but it's lots of things. Anyhow, the panels aren't generally the problem anymore, it's the other parts (for LCD its the polarizers, for LCOS I'm not sure). It's not guaranteed you will see degradation though, just saying it is (AFIK) still inherent in the tech to some degree.

Since DLP color wheels have become exceedingly more reliable in the past 2-3 years, I would say if you want something to beat up and use it like a TV, then a DLP is a better value. If you don't care if your projector degrades or breaks within 5 years, then go for LCOS. Otherwise, the third option is to buy 2 projectors and keep upgrading one of them as most of us in AVS do.

I would put my bets on LCOS over LCD for longevity though, I definitely wouldn't use an LCD projector like a TV for years, but DLP is the better bet since DLP is not affected by long-term heat like the other techs are.



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post #4610 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 09:47 AM
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The main reason I recommended a DLP over the Sony was because he said he wanted to put thousands of hours on it per year (and use it like a TV with constant on/off's). The DLP is much cheaper so if it breaks it is just not as big of an issue.

LCD and LCOS still lose some contrast or the colors almost always degrade EVENTUALLY (at what point hard to say), it is just that most people don't notice. I don't know the exact amount (no-one does), but in the past Sony projectors started losing contrast and/or color fidelity around 1000-8000 hours - depending on luck, the newer ones can take more of a beating. The tech does have SOME degradation, it is inherent in the tech even with inorganic panels, it's not just the panels themselves that can have an issue, but it's lots of things. Anyhow, the panels aren't generally the problem anymore, it's the other parts (for LCD its the polarizers, for LCOS I'm not sure). It's not guaranteed you will see degradation though, just saying it is (AFIK) still inherent in the tech to some degree.

Since DLP color wheels have become exceedingly more reliable in the past 2-3 years, I would say if you want something to beat up and use it like a TV, then a DLP is a better value. If you don't care if your projector degrades or breaks within 5 years, then go for LCOS. Otherwise, the third option is to buy 2 projectors and keep upgrading one of them as most of us in AVS do.

I would put my bets on LCOS over LCD for longevity though, I definitely wouldn't use an LCD projector like a TV for years, but DLP is the better bet since DLP is not affected by long-term heat like the other techs are.

Coderguy, did you see the thread where the guy put over 20,000 hours on his Sony VW60? If I recall, he said he went through 8 lamps. Of course the guy was complaining because his projector was starting to fail. He was ranting on Sony and everyone else in the thread was saying, maybe they should buy a Sony. smile.gif

Not saying all Sony's will last like that, but he ran the crap out of his projector. Turned it on in the morning and off when he went to bed. Said he ran it like that seven days a week.

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post #4611 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 09:57 AM
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Yah, I've seen it. I would not normally tell people to pick one type of projector over another for reliability, and if he wants the Sony, go for it. However, I'm just saying what I'd do, turning a projector on/off constantly and using it like a TV 10+ hours a day, I'd use a DLP for that.
I know that people like UMR measured Sony's that were not ALL that old and he said they still lose contrast, I'm more likely to go by that. I think it was the Sony vw90.

The Sony should be theoretically just as reliable as the other projectors, but my point is that if you want to abuse a projector, a cheap DLP is a lot cheaper if you burn it up and it will definitely not lose contrast. The Sony might lose contrast, hard to say. I would put bets on that it would lose something in that time, even if it still functions.



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post #4612 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squigly1 View Post

William: I appreciate the time and thought you put into the reply. I'm weighing it and other replies. Hence my paralysis.

Coderguy got me thinking with his comment about the amount of hours i'll be putting on the projector in one year. It's a tough call. I like the quietness of the Sony's and that they arent LCD. Not sure I like that the 30es came out in 2011. It's almost like i'd be buying a 2 year old projector. The 50es is more than I'd like to spend. The Epson has the nice warranty with 2 day replacement and the free lamp. The w1070 is cheap and buying it puts me $2k ahead in saving for a new projector come like Jan 2015 and who knows what might be available then. I realy want something for the start of NFL as I host Sunday football and I'm also looking forward to viewing 3D at home.

Oh I hear you. I owned (among others) a Panasonic PT-AE4000U, the PT-AE7000U and then the PT-AE8000U. The 30ES came out during the PT-AE4000U's reign. Crazy, right? And yet - it blows away all the aforementioned projectors in pretty much every respect.

That's probably why Sony hasn't upgraded them all that much. As Zombie has stated, the HW50 is the same essential design as the HW30. I'd bet any issues you'd encounter with the 30ES would be there on the 50ES. I still say - save your money. You're hung up on the 2011 factor, and the "maybe I need the brightness of the HW50" factor. I've already told you my setup, which is strikingly similar to yours. I've used a TON of projectors from various brands, so it's not like I'm just a guy having only used one projector, with a one-track opinion. I still think the HW30 would do you tremendously, and you'd sleep better at night knowing it didn't cost a bloody fortune! I think, for a lot of people, the HW50 isn't worth the price difference, especially if you can pick up an HW30 for around $2300 as I did. If you had a huge display with a 1.0 gain screen, I could see the benefit of the HW50, but not for your screen size etc.
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post #4613 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 01:11 PM
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William: I appreciate the time and thought you put into the reply. I'm weighing it and other replies. Hence my paralysis.

Coderguy got me thinking with his comment about the amount of hours i'll be putting on the projector in one year. It's a tough call. I like the quietness of the Sony's and that they arent LCD. Not sure I like that the 30es came out in 2011. It's almost like i'd be buying a 2 year old projector. The 50es is more than I'd like to spend. The Epson has the nice warranty with 2 day replacement and the free lamp. The w1070 is cheap and buying it puts me $2k ahead in saving for a new projector come like Jan 2015 and who knows what might be available then. I realy want something for the start of NFL as I host Sunday football and I'm also looking forward to viewing 3D at home.

Dontget caught uoup on when a projector came out. For instance, the Epson 3020 came out in 2012 but the 2009 Epson 8500UB is a much better projector. I just bought a 2010 projector which throws a much better picture than most projectors in the last two years
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post #4614 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 01:23 PM
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He said 85% TV/Sports via Bell FibeTV and 15% movies on a 108" 1.0 gain screen with 50+ hours usage per week.

If he wants to watch Sports with no ambient light, the Sony is going to work great, but with those kind of hours he is planning on putting on the projector (50+ hours per week) on a 1.0 gain screen, I'd pick a brighter projector. The hw50 has no super bright torch modes, though it is very bright, but that's going to hurt him in the long run with those kind of hours he is planning on using the projector.

Why?

Longevity and Brightness of lamps...

I'd wait for the Benq w7500, which should hopefully be out next month, this would probably suit him better. The Benq w1070 would be my "NOW" choice (I said the Optoma hd25-LV before, but now I realize it probably won't fit in his room). What he really needs is a SUPER bright projector with a Manually Adjustable IRIS (I don't like calling the Benq w7000 IRIS a fixed IRIS, since the IRIS doesn't improve contrast like higher-end DLP's). Hopefully the Benq w7500 will have the same capabilities. Unless he can cram an Optoma hd25 into the room somehow (doubtful).

Why does he need it super bright with manually adjustable IRS?
Otherwise with those kind of hours, he is going to have trouble keeping the lamp at his preferential brightness, and remember this is an active constant use setup. ND filters work great for average use, but if I were using a projector that many hours, I'd want the adjustable manual IRIS I think because I'd be using it in different lighting scenarios and a single ND filter isn't as convenient once you get "between" the optimal brightness. Although watching a lot of stuff below 16 fL is just fine, one thing that sux when the lamp starts to DIM is Sports and TV (and he is 85% TV/Sports). You want a bright lamp for this type of viewing, and my guess is if the room is used 50+ hours per week, I doubt he will want to be viewing in the darkness the entire time.

Here is another weird fact, lamps on DLP projectors tend to last longer anecdotally speaking, though it could be a coincidence. I say anecdotally because this has been true not only for me, but in most forum threads I rarely find lamp issues reported on DLP's, but I seem to see it reported quite often on LCD and LCOS projectors.



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post #4615 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 01:35 PM
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LCD and LCOS still lose some contrast or the colors almost always degrade EVENTUALLY (at what point hard to say), it is just that most people don't notice. I don't know the exact amount (no-one does), but in the past Sony projectors started losing contrast and/or color fidelity around 1000-8000 hours - depending on luck, the newer ones can take more of a beating. The tech does have SOME degradation, it is inherent in the tech even with inorganic panels, it's not just the panels themselves that can have an issue, but it's lots of things. Anyhow, the panels aren't generally the problem anymore, it's the other parts (for LCD its the polarizers, for LCOS I'm not sure). It's not guaranteed you will see degradation though, just saying it is (AFIK) still inherent in the tech to some degree.

Since DLP color wheels have become exceedingly more reliable in the past 2-3 years, I would say if you want something to beat up and use it like a TV, then a DLP is a better value. If you don't care if your projector degrades or breaks within 5 years, then go for LCOS. Otherwise, the third option is to buy 2 projectors and keep upgrading one of them as most of us in AVS do.

Could you provide some more info and references on both LCD/LCOS panel degradation and improved DLP color wheel reliability? I'm not a zealot of any of these technologies and I don't have any data to refute what you're saying, I'd just like to get more background and understand the issues more fully.
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post #4616 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 01:42 PM
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I'd love to re-search the entire forum and go through 10,000 posts, but look up the user UMR and how he reported contrast loss on Sony's. As far as the color wheels, it is based on hard drive motors, the motors are more reliable than in the past, it's a fact. Also they re-designed some of the way the color wheel attaches to the posts and made it more sturdy, this is in combination with the fact that the newer color wheels are definitely not an identical design to the ones they used in the past on the sub $5000 DLP's (different as in different revision, updated revisions generally mean higher reliability). This could be circumstantial evidence, and admittedly is partly anecdotal, but then take the logic of this and apply to what you read in the forums. They are putting faster color wheels in cheaper projectors, the design is more refined, just like newer hard drives are generally speaking more reliable than older hard drives. Technology gets refined over the years, even though it gets cheaper at the same time.

More Proof:
Very simple, number of recent posts I've seen about failing color wheels (even though from 2009 to 2013 CHEAP DLP projectors for HT outnumber the sales of all older models probably 10:1 (since in the past we had more variety of DLP models for Home Theater), so just look in the Optoma DLP, Mits hc3800/4000, and Benq w7000, w1070 threads). Number of times I've seen anyone report a color wheel failure on these DLP threads, less than 10 (maybe about 10 total).

On the older Benq and Optoma threads, I remember more color wheel failures in a single thread than all the recent threads combined, even though in the recent threads there are way more posts.

How do I know LCD polarizers still fail, very simple, I know people in this business and I've talked to a repair shop, and it's been reported many times in the forum on both business LCD projectors and HT DLP's. Furthermore, DLP is the only projector with a fully closed light path and a single chip, the other techs have more parts in them (simple as that), more parts = more likely to fail.

It is a known industry fact that DLP is not as suceptible to long-term heat as LCOS or LCD (inorganic or organic) IF all else is equal, nothing to debate on this last fact.



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post #4617 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 02:04 PM
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Its very easy to understand what Coderguy is saying. The Sony 50es is close to $4000. The Benq is $900. By the time the Benq needs a new lamp, the Sony would have probably went through 3 bulbs. Its just much much cheaper. Plus, dlps have great motion, which is a benefit for sports
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post #4618 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 02:09 PM
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We actually later found out that the motion resolution was about the same on recent DLP's and LCOS, with a few exceptions. However, most people tend to like DLP and LCOS better than LCD motion I suppose. The Benq w7500 at least should have pretty decent FI, plenty good for sports. I'd be all for finding out which recent DLP projector really has the best motion resolution, but presumably in Sports he will enable FI anyhow, so then the motion resolution increases a bit supposedly (as reported by some users).

To re-emphasize the point, with 15% movies and 85% TV/Sports, I'm not sure the black level argument really applies ALL that much (certainly some). However, I would rather save thousands and thousands of dollars than abuse an expensive Sony just for Sports. The Sony will not look better than a good DLP for Sports IMO, the DLP looks better for this because of the sharpness. Not saying the Sony won't look close to as good (it will), but why pay more for something with slightly less POP in the main type of viewing he is doing. I also do not think the Sony will beat the DLP in most TV, the Sony will win for those dark SCI FI or Fantasy type TV series, and in some of the movies he watches, but that's about it.

Ask this, what is he buying the Sony for, what advantage is he getting for paying that much money?
Black levels vs. "Bright Enough" in an 85/15 scenario, I'm going with the BRIGHTER projector.

Honestly, I'd probably go with the refurb Epson 5010 before I'd go with the Sony hw50 in his case, though DLP is better on TV than LCD projectors IMO, so I'm sticking with DLP overall.

The different projectors I'd consider, Benq w7000 (now) or w7500 (next month when released), Benq w1500 or Benq w1070, or one of the Optomas (unlikely to fit in his room but maybe one of them would), and doubtfully but maybe the Epson 5010/5020.



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post #4619 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 02:33 PM
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I was aware that there was some connection between color wheel motors and hard drive motors. I had not heard that hard drive motors had improved significantly (though for all my spinning platters, I hope this is very true).

As far as LCD/LCOS panel degradation, I think some problems attributed to that could actually be due to other components in the optical path degrading/off-gassing. Inorganic panels are claimed to not exhibit the same failure modes as organic panels. With 1-chip DLP offering the simplest optical path, it makes sense that there are fewer components subject to high heat and UV that might degrade and affect the projected image. Still, I think there's something to be said for less mechanical designs, with 1-chip DLP projectors with an iris having perhaps the most moving parts.

I would commend manufacturers for seeking to address these long term issues. I believe JVC, for one, claimed to have switched to inorganic optical components (polarizers and such).

Failures and decreasing performance are complicated issues, no doubt. I wish there was more raw data to support the anecdotal reports. Then again, we would need many more purchases to generate this data and I kind of enjoy being part of a fairly niche hobby.
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post #4620 of 9106 Old 08-22-2013, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

We actually later found out that the motion resolution was about the same on recent DLP's and LCOS, with a few exceptions. However, most people tend to like DLP and LCOS better than LCD motion I suppose. The Benq w7500 at least should have pretty decent FI, plenty good for sports. I'd be all for finding out which recent DLP projector really has the best motion resolution, but presumably in Sports he will enable FI anyhow, so then the motion resolution increases a bit supposedly (as reported by some users).

To re-emphasize the point, with 15% movies and 85% TV/Sports, I'm not sure the black level argument really applies ALL that much (certainly some). However, I would rather save thousands and thousands of dollars than abuse an expensive Sony just for Sports. The Sony will not look better than a good DLP for Sports IMO, the DLP looks better for this because of the sharpness. Not saying the Sony won't look close to as good (it will), but why pay more for something with slightly less POP in the main type of viewing he is doing. I also do not think the Sony will beat the DLP in most TV, the Sony will win for those dark SCI FI or Fantasy type TV series, and in some of the movies he watches, but that's about it.

Ask this, what is he buying the Sony for, what advantage is he getting for paying that much money?
Black levels vs. "Bright Enough" in an 85/15 scenario, I'm going with the BRIGHTER projector.

Honestly, I'd probably go with the refurb Epson 5010 before I'd go with the Sony hw50 in his case, though DLP is better on TV than LCD projectors IMO, so I'm sticking with DLP overall.

The different projectors I'd consider, Benq w7000 (now) or w7500 (next month when released), Benq w1500 or Benq w1070, or one of the Optomas (unlikely to fit in his room but maybe one of them would), and doubtfully but maybe the Epson 5010/5020.

I wouldn't go with the 5020, not based on my experience with loud iris, uniformity etc...

I run my HW30 with a lot of ambient light at times, and it's plenty bright enough with my 100" 1.0 gain AT screen. Damnit, people! The HW30 is bright! biggrin.gif (and I only use low-lamp mode).
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