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post #451 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

First pic is no glasses, second is with glasses...
Doh, thanks!
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post #452 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 08:11 AM
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I have the 8700ub for gaming and movies, and am seriously considering moving to the 5020. Does anyone know how the lag on the 8700 compares with the 5020?
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post #453 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 08:17 AM
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Very much appreciate the offer Zombie, but definitely dont want you to go out and grab a game just for this test. If you happen to have any game with 3d support for the 360 I would be curious to know how it does and any game should do as they all had significant ghosting from the ones I have tried with the 40/45. If you dont have any handy though, no worries. smile.gif

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post #454 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 08:18 AM
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Are the dust blobs on the Epson a pale green like they were on all of the LCDs I have owned in the past? smile.gif
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post #455 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 08:48 AM
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zombie10k,
I know it's early in the review process but how would you rank them in performance for 2D, 3D and gaming thanks.

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post #456 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 09:26 AM
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In the sub $3k I would strongly consider the price reduced HW30ES. It does 2D and 3D well. AVS ranked it the best all around projector is the last model year. Granted you would have to purchase the emitter separately now or you could DIY your own cable to use the MonsterVision RF transmitter. I would definitely purchase the HW30ES over the 3020. You are not throwing away a significant level of lumen like you do with the Epson units.

Just my opinion.

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post #457 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

DILA is not superior on all counts, JVC's thus far have had issues with motion handling, gaming lag, lamp life (hopefully now fixed), sharpness (which was improved since the 35), poor 3D and lack of proper calibration controls (CMS) in their entry level models which are still generally just as expensive or more than the Epson and Panasonic.
The JVC is superior on most content if all you do is watch 2D movies but for all around use I would take certain model LCD's or DLP's over the JVC's, which probably has something to do with why the Epsons and Panasonics sell far more than JVC. I'm going to guess here and say the vast majority of consumers (heck the vast majority of AVS'ers for that matter) don't want a projector that only does one category well, even if it happens to do it better than the others. There are $1000 DLP units that best the JVC's on certain aspects, there's a $700 DLP that bests JVC on motion handling, gaming lag, 3D and lumens.
At the end of the day every tech has its pros and cons and there is no reasonable ($) unit that bests all the rest on every aspect, if there were we would all own the same unit. How boring would that be? I guess the bonus there would give Zombie enough time to hand paint those white ceiling tiles since a thread like this would be pointless. wink.gif
Jason

I traded by JVC RS45 for an Epson 6010, and I've been very happy. I certainly didn't want to let go of the higher contrast of the JVC, but 3D is very important to me. IMO my RS45 (despite JVC's claims of improvements) was much worse for 3D than the RS40 it replaced. And the RS40, once it got a few hours on the lamp, was pretty bad. The Epson beats the JVCs for 24p Blu-ray 3D (most movies) and it absolutely destroys them for any 120hz 3D content (most of the 60i 3D I've shot with my JVC 3D camcorder so far). I hope this year's JVCs are better. That's one reason I'm so interested in this thread.

OTOH, the JVC's native contrast makes for the BEST 3D I've ever seen. But that's only when it works. For me, this happens is in dark scenes with lighter highlights. Bright scenes with fine, dark details (tree branches and leaves, suspension cables, light poles) look so bad on the JVC RS45 that I find it unwatchable. I can't see anything else, and it completely takes me out of the 3D "experience." I distinguish "dark ghosting" from "light ghosting." Some displays "dark ghost" and some "light ghost." The Epson is very good with both types. And it's good enough for 2D that it's the best compromise for me at this point in time.

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post #458 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MeeTsenPu View Post

Great stuff on this thread and Ive been lurking for a few weeks as Im in the process of building out my basement. SO I thought I had narrowed my search down to the W7000 but now that the 5020 has come out and the reviews look like its a great projector with great blacks and improved gaming lag. My question is, should I still be looking at the W7000? I plan to have a 120" screen and sit about 13' away with most of the use being sports (I always host a Super Bowl party), hdtv, and gaming but designing the room to be able to be blacked out for some good movie watching. The price tag of the 5020 is right about where I want to be too. Its negligible because the W7000 does not include glasses. Is the sharpness of the W7000's DLP something to think about? Thanks and keep it up!

While the W7000 is indeed sharp and bright, the poor black level performance is a deal breaker to me. There are better all around options now including the 5020 you mentioned.
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post #459 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 11:03 AM
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Hey guys..the last thing I wanna do is discredit zombie..but the lag time thing...I owned the 5010 and using the same pc...same specs, nothing has changed..the 5010 had severe noticeable lag while playing fps....the 5020 is so much better..it has a really slight delay..but thats it...when iI flick the controller or press a button to fire..its almost immediate...and once again..not to discredit zombie..but playing borderlands 2 I feel the slightest lag..I was telling my cousin in co-op online even..that I could not imagine anyone not being able to play because of lag. Nailing headshots is zero problem at all from all the way across the map.
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post #460 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 11:14 AM
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If you are on a pc and have vsync off, your perceived delay will be almost zero in games even with a display of 60-70ms input lag.

Turn vsync on and now it's a different story.

Is your vsync on or off?
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post #461 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 11:30 AM
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I never game with vsync off...I dont think I have played a game with vsync off that has never had severe screen tearing...my pc may be helping though. I have a hex core overclocked to 4.2ghz 16gb of ram and 3gtx 580's although right now I only use one. I play games with maxed settings always, and with vsync on.
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post #462 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post

Hey guys..the last thing I wanna do is discredit zombie..but the lag time thing...I owned the 5010 and using the same pc...same specs, nothing has changed..the 5010 had severe noticeable lag while playing fps....the 5020 is so much better..it has a really slight delay..but thats it...when iI flick the controller or press a button to fire..its almost immediate...and once again..not to discredit zombie..but playing borderlands 2 I feel the slightest lag..I was telling my cousin in co-op online even..that I could not imagine anyone not being able to play because of lag. Nailing headshots is zero problem at all from all the way across the map.

80ms which is what Zombie is clocking his 5020 at is too high for any game player who is even remotely competitive IMO. I know exactly what 80ms feels like since that is what my 40/45 came in at. After moving my xbox upstairs to the flat panel I noticed an immediate difference in responsiveness on the game SSX which is the first game I have ever been competitive with (was always ok with the 80ms lag for my very sporadic casual gaming before SSX). Not only that but I was breaking personal best times/scores left and right which seems a bit ironic. I wont even play the game now with my 80ms of lag 45.

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post #463 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 11:43 AM
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Here's the quote from PC about input lag:

"Input Lag. Last year, we measured 92ms of lag on the Epson 5010, which was about the worst performance we saw that year. On a 60Hz signal (what you get from most PCs and gaming systems), that is 5.5 frames of delay.

This year, a series of input lag measurements reveals that the 5020UBe is faster than its predecessor in several areas. If you are serious about games, you can get a 50 millisecond delay out of the 5020UBe by changing the amount of processing the projector does to the signal. Go to Signal>Advanced>Image Processing and switch from "Fine" to "Fast." Using Cinema mode with Frame Interpolation off, that gets you 50ms (3 frames) of input lag, the fastest time the 5020UBe is capable of."

I'm not a gamer so I don't care, but you guys obviously do so you'll just have to keep after Zombie to see if he can find away to lessen the input lag he's experiencing.

My question to Zombie: What is 3D like on the 5020 with the DI enabled? How about the last Underworld flick or Tron?
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post #464 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post

Hey guys..the last thing I wanna do is discredit zombie..but the lag time thing...I owned the 5010 and using the same pc...same specs, nothing has changed..the 5010 had severe noticeable lag while playing fps....the 5020 is so much better..it has a really slight delay..but thats it...when iI flick the controller or press a button to fire..its almost immediate...and once again..not to discredit zombie..but playing borderlands 2 I feel the slightest lag..I was telling my cousin in co-op online even..that I could not imagine anyone not being able to play because of lag. Nailing headshots is zero problem at all from all the way across the map.

there is a guy in the 5020 thread stating the complete opposite claiming he's feeling the lag on the 5020 so I'm not sure what's accurate at this point and time.

I have to find out why the HW50 can nail 30ms each time I run the test, but regardless of the 5020 settings, I am seeing ~70ms, closer to 80ms. I have not been able to replicate the 50ms times with the same exact settings that PC published.

For some gamers, 50ms would be considered too high (W7000 was 50ms with FI and DI turned off) and some might even consider the HW50 @ 30ms too much.

we need the benchmarks because perceptions, unless done in a controlled A/B environment (5010 next to the 5020) are a little hard to go by.
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post #465 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 12:31 PM
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Looks to me like the ghosting on the 5020 is actually a little worse than on the 5010 if I compare Zombie's photos from the both projectors:

5010:
grandcanyon-5010.jpg

5020:
Epson5020-5.jpg
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post #466 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi, in the 5010 photo, glasses brightness is set to low. In the 5020 photo, it's set to medium.

When both projectors are at the same brightness setting, the performance is identical.

Overall the 5020 is a very good performer in 3D, but its a shame they chose to leave out the FI in 3D again this year.
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post #467 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 12:46 PM
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zombie10k,
So looks like the Benq W7000 is still better than the 5020 in 3D. If you were looking at the Epson 5020 or Benq W7000 which one would you take for 2D and 3D performance.

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post #468 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I have not been able to replicate the 50ms times with the same exact settings that PC published.

Could there be some firmware variation? What version are you running? Maybe PC can be asked to post theirs.

Personally I could live with 50ms but not much more, so this is a deal-making measurement.
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post #469 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the perceivable flicker is better on the 5020, the image is nice and solid through the glasses.

I wonder if most of the flicker on the Sony's come from their lamp modulation. Or do you think it's because the blackout time on the glasses is shorter on the Epsons (since the panels are driven at 480Hz)?

One thing that confuses me is that perceived flicker doesn't change on the Sony with different glasses brightness settings. So I'm confused as to what is actually happening when you change the brightness settings on the glasses. If setting brightness lower introduces longer or more blackout times in the glasses, one would expect flicker characteristics to change with different brightness settings, no?

One thing I can say: shooting high shutter speed shots of the glasses (1/800s) at 6fps shows that lower glasses brightness modes have both L & R lenses blacked out more frequently. In other words, if I take 30 shots at ~6fps w/ brightness at minimum, I get more shots that show both lenses 'closed' than if I take 30 shots at 6fps w/ brightness at maximum.
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post #470 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

...I have a number of dark scenes I want to try out in a direct A/B comparison (same source, covering each lens) this weekend.

Please keep the RS55 in this comparison as well and as much detail as possible would be great! Thanks!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Agreed. I LOVE my 45 for 2d movies which is what I do most, but it is definitely not a great all around projector if you want to watch 3d and game as well. The JVC feels more and more like a one trick pony to me (but it is VERY good at that one trick which is why I keep coming back wink.gif). 3d may or may not be significantly improved this year which is still very much TBD in my mind and gaming lag most likely has not made any significant improvement which has now become a common trend for JVC from year to year unfortunately. Maybe there is some technical limitation preventing JVC from improving lag?

Your thoughts pretty much sum up my feelings. The RS45 is a great 2D projector and for the first time in a while I feel pretty content with the projector for 2D. 3D is a completely different story. At this point the HW50 seems to be the only option for me. I just can't bring myself to get the Benq W7000 for a 3D only projector as that's the only thing it would be used for. The FI in 3D really looks appealing to me and that's one upgrade I really wish JVC would have included in this years models.
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post #471 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 03:33 PM
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Please keep the RS55 in this comparison as well and as much detail as possible would be great! Thanks!!!
Your thoughts pretty much sum up my feelings. The RS45 is a great 2D projector and for the first time in a while I feel pretty content with the projector for 2D. 3D is a completely different story. At this point the HW50 seems to be the only option for me. I just can't bring myself to get the Benq W7000 for a 3D only projector as that's the only thing it would be used for. The FI in 3D really looks appealing to me and that's one upgrade I really wish JVC would have included in this years models.

If you watch just blu rays, there will be no use for the W7000. But I use mines for 3D blu rays, sports, PS3, and cable. I think those things look better on the Benq than the JVC
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post #472 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 03:38 PM
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Very excited to see how this all plays out. I've really been eying several of these, especially the HW50. On a personal level, love to scene selection. I am a HUGE Buddy Guy fan. Have seen him 6-7 times in concert, including at his Legends club in Chicago and was even able to get a few pics with him. biggrin.gif

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post #473 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Very excited to see how this all plays out. I've really been eying several of these, especially the HW50. On a personal level, love to scene selection. I am a HUGE Buddy Guy fan. Have seen him 6-7 times in concert, including at his Legends club in Chicago and was even able to get a few pics with him. biggrin.gif

wow, I am jealous..! The Crossroads 2010 concert sounds excellent and Buddy Guy is one of my favorites. He is playing with Ronnie Wood during 'missing you' and breaks his guitar string. great impromptu scene and when he gets the replacement guitar, kills the rest of the song. biggrin.gif
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post #474 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

wow, I am jealous..! The Crossroads 2010 concert sounds excellent and Buddy Guy is one of my favorites. He is playing with Ronnie Wood during 'missing you' and breaks his guitar string. great impromptu scene and when he gets the replacement guitar, kills the rest of the song. biggrin.gif

Ya, I can honestly say his live shows are some of the best I've ever seen. I have also not found any recorded shows of him that really capture just how good he is live. If you ever get the opportunity certainly see him.

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post #475 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

DILA is not superior on all counts, JVC's thus far have had issues with motion handling, gaming lag, lamp life (hopefully now fixed), sharpness (which was improved since the 35), poor 3D and lack of proper calibration controls (CMS) in their entry level models which are still generally just as expensive or more than the Epson and Panasonic.
The JVC is superior on most content if all you do is watch 2D movies but for all around use I would take certain model LCD's or DLP's over the JVC's, which probably has something to do with why the Epsons and Panasonics sell far more than JVC. I'm going to guess here and say the vast majority of consumers (heck the vast majority of AVS'ers for that matter) don't want a projector that only does one category well, even if it happens to do it better than the others. There are $1000 DLP units that best the JVC's on certain aspects, there's a $700 DLP that bests JVC on motion handling, gaming lag, 3D and lumens.
At the end of the day every tech has its pros and cons and there is no reasonable ($) unit that bests all the rest on every aspect, if there were we would all own the same unit. How boring would that be? I guess the bonus there would give Zombie enough time to hand paint those white ceiling tiles since a thread like this would be pointless. wink.gif
Jason

Correct, but probably 95% of total projector use is 2D. 3D is still a very small percentage and many people still wonder if 3D is going to survive this time. An even smaller group does gaming on a projector. So while there are those that weigh gaming and 3D very heavy, that group is very small compared to the "I want the best 2D image I can get for my money group."
If you want to talk about JVC going back to 2009, date RS35 was introduced, then I guess it would be fair game to bring up the problems that the LCD manufacturers have had since then. I don't want to sling mud here, but I can come up with a lot more problems and all of them a whole lot my sever than what JVC has had since 2009.

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post #476 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Ree
I would not think that Epsons and Panasonics sell far more than JVCs, but I don't follow sells. But after having 3 Panasonics, I would never choose it over a JVC.

I guess we can keep in mind that Bose outsells all other speaker manufacturers also. smile.gif

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post #477 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 04:40 PM
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I guess we can keep in mind that Bose outsells all other speaker manufacturers also. smile.gif

That pretty much sums it up! LMAO
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post #478 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

I wonder if most of the flicker on the Sony's come from their lamp modulation. Or do you think it's because the blackout time on the glasses is shorter on the Epsons (since the panels are driven at 480Hz)?
One thing that confuses me is that perceived flicker doesn't change on the Sony with different glasses brightness settings. So I'm confused as to what is actually happening when you change the brightness settings on the glasses. If setting brightness lower introduces longer or more blackout times in the glasses, one would expect flicker characteristics to change with different brightness settings, no?
One thing I can say: shooting high shutter speed shots of the glasses (1/800s) at 6fps shows that lower glasses brightness modes have both L & R lenses blacked out more frequently. In other words, if I take 30 shots at ~6fps w/ brightness at minimum, I get more shots that show both lenses 'closed' than if I take 30 shots at 6fps w/ brightness at maximum.

If I remember correctly, the increase in 3D brightness for the Epson is from pulsing the lamp.

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post #479 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I guess we can keep in mind that Bose outsells all other speaker manufacturers also. smile.gif

That's because they're the best speakers on the market right???

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post #480 of 8715 Old 11-02-2012, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Squuiid View Post

Not quite following what these are... Is the 1st image the HW50 and the 2nd image the 5020 or are these all the 5020? If so, that is seriously bad crosstalk!

zombie, just to clarify, can understand the photos without glasses, but how are you getting the photos with glasses ?

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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