Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 163 - AVS Forum
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post #4861 of 8765 Old 10-02-2013, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

If it didn't make much of a difference why would Sony invest so much money to produce such a high quality lens?

So they can sell the projector for $10K more than the JVC? smile.gif But seriously though, I'm guessing as with all high-end A/V equipment there are diminishing returns on the high end for an exponential increase in price.

Unfortunately I think a lot of the "newer clean content" you speak of is at least several years away from widespread availability in the form of 4K discs, at least based on what a/v industry magazines are saying.
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post #4862 of 8765 Old 10-02-2013, 09:27 PM
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Unfortunately, dirty content, that is specifically 4K porn, is several years off too.

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post #4863 of 8765 Old 10-02-2013, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post

So they can sell the projector for $10K more than the JVC? smile.gif But seriously though, I'm guessing as with all high-end A/V equipment there are diminishing returns on the high end for an exponential increase in price.

Unfortunately I think a lot of the "newer clean content" you speak of is at least several years away from widespread availability in the form of 4K discs, at least based on what a/v industry magazines are saying.

Even with upscaled 1080p you'll be able to see a difference. That has been evident for quite some time now. Read pretty much any review of the 1000ES. A better lens brings more than just a sharper looking image. It brings higher ANSI contrast, normally less brightness loss when going to and from each end of the lens, a clearer more natural looking image, and less CA. Even if the video resolution isn't very high you still still reap all the other benefits from a better lens design/implementation.
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post #4864 of 8765 Old 10-02-2013, 09:40 PM
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Budget: $4000ish
Using a Panamorph anamorphic lens
New construction, Room is 24x14
Projector can be mounted at any distance
Fully dedicated theater room
Using existing 130" wide AT 2.37 screen
Watch mostly Sports, TV shows and Movie's, not to much 3D.

Recommendations?
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post #4865 of 8765 Old 10-02-2013, 09:48 PM
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Top choices would be a Sony VPL-HW55ES or a JVC DLA-RS4910. If you're in a hurry to purchase you can buy the HW50ES or RS4810 which are both this years models'. Both of the recommended ones should be available around Christmas.
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post #4866 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 12:00 AM
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In South Africa, the JVC X35 (RS46) will cost the equivalent of USD6,500 and the Sony HW50 USD3,500. For me the HW50 is the obvious choice. What do you guys think?
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post #4867 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Optoma is releasing the HD91 and BenQ is also following up with a W7500 model which we should be hearing more info about soon.

I think a lot of folks are waiting hear about the HD91. LED, 1080P + 3D.

I just figured they would have made some kind of announcement @ CEDIA. Logic would have dictated it would be the time and place to do so.

But not even Panny, Acer, Viewsonic, Mitsubishi, Vivitek or Infocus announced anything for the home theater.
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post #4868 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

I just figured they would have made some kind of announcement @ CEDIA. Logic would have dictated it would be the time and place to do so.

But not even Panny, Acer, Viewsonic, Mitsubishi, Vivitek or Infocus announced anything for the home theater.

CEDIA is for retailers and installers. I believe that manufacturers are starting to realize that most of their projector sales are over the internet and sold consumers who have self-educated themselves. Why spend the money on shows? Epson won for the under $3,500 category CEDIA by default. That's the other manufacturers fault not Epson's.
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post #4869 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 09:35 AM
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Panasonic and Infocus have exited the HT market I believe. Mitsubishi might have, hard to say?
Acer and Viewsonic are mainly focused on the budget HT segment, other than their hybrid offerings, so they don't usually do much at shows.
Vivitek never seemed to make many HT projectors, though a few here and there.


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post #4870 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

The new Epson might be interesting. Here's what Evan Powell had to say about it at CEDIA:

"The other over-the-top buzzworthy new product on the CEDIA floor was the Epson Pro Cinema 6030, priced at a comparatively paltry $3500. On Saturday afternoon, the third day of the show when most attendees had gone home and the vast majority of idle booth workers were twiddling their thumbs and praying for the closing bell, there was still a long line of dealers waiting in line to see the 6030. This projector wins the award for the Best Picture for the Money at this show, hands down. It is not 4K, and it is not in the same league as the super-premium 1080p 3-chip DLPs, but the Epson 6030 produces a gorgeous picture for $3500. Black levels are extremely deep, and detail definition in dark shadows is impressive. Color appears refined, accurate and natural. And for classic film fans, the 6030 has a BW Cinema mode that auto sets the color temp to 5400 Kelvin for the authentic display of BW films as they were seen in the theaters back in the day. Very cool. The Epson 6030 at the show was displayed on a 1.3 gain Stewart Studiotek 130, 11-foot wide, 2.4 Cinemascope format. It was also being demo'd with a Panamorph CineVista anamorphic lens.

Epson's release of the Pro Cinema 6030, and its sister version the Home Cinema 5030 at $2500, will be of keen interest to the much larger population of home theater fans who don't want to spend the big bucks on 4K. It used to be that in this modest price range you gave up quite a bit of black level, shadow definition, and dynamic range in exchange for the lower investment. And there is still a difference between these units and the premium priced models, but video technology has advanced to the point where the differences are not nearly as dramatic as they used to be. In many cases you need to see them side by side to tell the difference. On their own the Epson 6030 and 5030 will produce large screen images that will fully satisfy the demands of the videophile who wants the complete dark room cinematic experience in the home."

The combination of really good shadow detail and black level was the first thing that struck me about the Epson 6010 (not to mention that the THX mode provided decent color out of the box). I can't say either of those things about the JVC's I owned (RS40 and RS45). Not to mention that the JVC gamma drifted after a few hundred hours to the point that bright scenes lost their punch. As someone who has never learned to calibrate (I know, I know - it's a serious character flaw), these are important considerations. It's easy to poke fun at any LCD technology (and spot the shortcomings), but overall the Epson 6010 has been my favorite projector of the last 10-12 years. That's why I have few qualms about waiting for a more reasonably priced 4K projector than the Sony 600 and have settled instead for the Epson 5030. At 17% of the cost of the Sony, the Epson seems like one of the smarter things I've done while indulging in this money-pit of a hobby. biggrin.gif

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post #4871 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 10:39 AM
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Still no confirmation of a Game mode on the Epsons?

- Klipsch RF-82 ii, RC-62 ii, RS-52 ii
- Klipsch RW-12D
- Sony HW50es
- Firehawk G3
- Denon 2113
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post #4872 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 10:43 AM
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BTW, I tend to upgrade speakers at a far slower pace than projectors. My recent upgrade to GoldenEar speakers (including Triton Two's for mains) was relatively costly, but it was a far more significant and satisfying upgrade for me personally than any single change in projector technology has been in recent memory. I doubt that perception will change after the upgrade to the Epson 5030 from the 6010. And in terms of cost, GoldenEar is kinda/sorta the Epson of the speaker world - remarkably good performance at an extremely affordable price.

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post #4873 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Still no confirmation of a Game mode on the Epsons?

Sorry. I'm not a gamer, so game mode and lag are things I scan right past, even when they're mentioned in a review.

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post #4874 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

At 17% of the cost of the Sony, the Epson seems like one of the smarter things I've done while indulging in this money-pit of a hobby. biggrin.gif

Ditto!
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post #4875 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 06:23 PM
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I am trying to decide between the JVC x55 at $6500 NZD and the Sony 50ES for $4500 NZD. I use 40% Games, 10% Kids movies on basic DVD, 25% Movies (Blu-Ray Mostly) and 25 TV/Sports (Usually in HD)

If I said the JVC scored 10/10 for 2D/3D on a scale of 1/10 with the 10 being as close to perfect in this price range as could be expected

How would the Sony Perform comparatively?

My Main reason for considering the Sony is because I have been told that gaming on the JVC is problematic because of input lag, and I am concerned it would be even worse with new Gen Consoles (PS4/XBOX One) and games.

Obviously a pretty big price difference, but I'd stump the price difference in a heartbeat except for the Input Lag which I am told isn't present in the Sony. I saw a demo of the JVC which took my breath away, but originally when I walked in the PT8000 Panasonic was on display and that was amazing too.

I have a HC6800 Misti which is 3 years old currently on a 106" Ambertec Motorized screen 3.9M from my seating position. We have darkened curtains but some light still leaks through but it's not huge. Enough light to easily read a unilluminated watch with the curtains drawn.

Anything anyone can contribute would be much appreciated.
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post #4876 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi zombie10k, when do you expect to have round 3 shoot out thanks. biggrin.gif

as soon as they are released... smile.gif we'll likely start with the Sony VW600.
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post #4877 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

The new Epson might be interesting. Here's what Evan Powell had to say about it at CEDIA:

"The other over-the-top buzzworthy new product on the CEDIA floor was the Epson Pro Cinema 6030, priced at a comparatively paltry $3500. On Saturday afternoon, the third day of the show when most attendees had gone home and the vast majority of idle booth workers were twiddling their thumbs and praying for the closing bell, there was still a long line of dealers waiting in line to see the 6030. This projector wins the award for the Best Picture for the Money at this show, hands down. It is not 4K, and it is not in the same league as the super-premium 1080p 3-chip DLPs, but the Epson 6030 produces a gorgeous picture for $3500. Black levels are extremely deep, and detail definition in dark shadows is impressive. Color appears refined, accurate and natural. And for classic film fans, the 6030 has a BW Cinema mode that auto sets the color temp to 5400 Kelvin for the authentic display of BW films as they were seen in the theaters back in the day. Very cool. The Epson 6030 at the show was displayed on a 1.3 gain Stewart Studiotek 130, 11-foot wide, 2.4 Cinemascope format. It was also being demo'd with a Panamorph CineVista anamorphic lens.

Epson's release of the Pro Cinema 6030, and its sister version the Home Cinema 5030 at $2500, will be of keen interest to the much larger population of home theater fans who don't want to spend the big bucks on 4K. It used to be that in this modest price range you gave up quite a bit of black level, shadow definition, and dynamic range in exchange for the lower investment. And there is still a difference between these units and the premium priced models, but video technology has advanced to the point where the differences are not nearly as dramatic as they used to be. In many cases you need to see them side by side to tell the difference. On their own the Epson 6030 and 5030 will produce large screen images that will fully satisfy the demands of the videophile who wants the complete dark room cinematic experience in the home."

Interesting. This might be the replacement for my 4 year old JVC I've been looking for.

Growing Older But Not Up
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post #4878 of 8765 Old 10-03-2013, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by networkn View Post

I am trying to decide between the JVC x55 at $6500 NZD and the Sony 50ES for $4500 NZD. I use 40% Games, 10% Kids movies on basic DVD, 25% Movies (Blu-Ray Mostly) and 25 TV/Sports (Usually in HD)

If I said the JVC scored 10/10 for 2D/3D on a scale of 1/10 with the 10 being as close to perfect in this price range as could be expected

How would the Sony Perform comparatively?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmavs View Post

In South Africa, the JVC X35 (RS46) will cost the equivalent of USD6,500 and the Sony HW50 USD3,500. For me the HW50 is the obvious choice. What do you guys think?

I asked a similar question but about the JVC X35. I haven't seen either of these projectors in action but I have read a ton of pro and user reviews. For me, the JVC is marginally ahead but not 44% ahead of the Sony.
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post #4879 of 8765 Old 10-04-2013, 08:45 AM
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I'm curious to hear more about e-shift 2, and how it compares to the RS55 that I own

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post #4880 of 8765 Old 10-04-2013, 09:46 AM
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I'm curious to hear more about e-shift 2, and how it compares to the RS55 that I own
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Zombie has covered that in great detail earlier in this thread. Do a search.
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post #4881 of 8765 Old 10-04-2013, 02:31 PM
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He said he liked the first e-shift more than the second. E-shift 2 fixes the loss of ANSI contrast with it enabled, though.
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post #4882 of 8765 Old 10-07-2013, 04:24 AM
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post #4883 of 8765 Old 10-07-2013, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Interesting wrap-up of CEDIA by the AVS team. Here's the link.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1493056/avs-newsbreaker-social-media-manager-mark-henninger-imagic-at-cedia-2013

All reports indicate the Sony was being shown on a ST130 screen, not a Firehawk as indicated in this interview/report. I think they have that wrong. I was told ST130 by two different reps at the show and other posters were told the same thing.

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post #4884 of 8765 Old 10-08-2013, 10:31 AM
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All reports indicate the Sony was being shown on a ST130 screen, not a Firehawk as indicated in this interview/report. I think they have that wrong. I was told ST130 by two different reps at the show and other posters were told the same thing.

It was a StudioTek 130 G3. A Sony rep told us that the screen material had been replaced, but the frame indicated Firehawk from the original screen material.

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post #4885 of 8765 Old 10-08-2013, 12:23 PM
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It was a StudioTek 130 G3. A Sony rep told us that the screen material had been replaced, but the frame indicated Firehawk from the original screen material.

Thanks Craig. It all makes sense now. smile.gif

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post #4886 of 8765 Old 10-08-2013, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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it's almost time to start round 3, starting with the Epson 5030. I'm looking forward to seeing the FI in 3D.

edit: good timing, this thread just reached 400,000 views. biggrin.gif
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post #4887 of 8765 Old 10-08-2013, 02:39 PM
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Not a bad number for a rag-tag band of enthusiasts who were told to go start their own thread, rather than continue to" pollute" owners threads with all that irrelevant talk about 3D, huh? IIRC, that was one of the reasons this thread was started. biggrin.gif

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post #4888 of 8765 Old 10-11-2013, 07:57 PM
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Jason, with Mitsubishi exiting the projector business, I'm curious to hear at what price you think their DLP's (8000, 7900 or 4000) would be considered worthwhile should a fire sale ensue.
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post #4889 of 8765 Old 10-11-2013, 10:29 PM
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Depends what you use them for, they are ok for 2d movies, but it sounds like the hc8000 was just an hc4000 with an IRIS and that the hc8000 had even lower native on/off than the hc4000. So I doubt these look much better than a Benq w1070, unless the IRIS on the hc8000 was updated. The w1070 had sharper optics and a brighter picture, and probably at 50% to 75% of the native on/off of the Mits (maybe even closer). The problem is the Mits aren't that good in 3D, not very bright and also some other issues.

I'd say the hc8000 is worth $800 to $1,600 depending what you value in the image. The Mits hc4000 is worth about $800 to $1200.

The Mits hc4000 is still the best sub-$1500 2D image for dark movies in DLP's IMO if you are not rainbow sensitive, but the lens doesn't have uniform focus, but if you focus it 1/3rd from the edge and just use it for movies, you cannot really notice it much (if at all). That said, if I had to choose, I would buy the w1070 or w7000 over the Mits, because I use my DLP's in HTPC, and the Benq's easily beat the Mits in that area. Plus the Benq's have much less RBE than the Mits do at the same fL.

The hc4000 can really do 3,500:1 to 3,800:1 calibrated on/off at max throw, this is higher than the Runco's LS-5 native on/off. Cine4 measured the Mits hc4000 at 4,500:1 on/off, which was an off-measurement, but none-the-less, there is no question it was the highest Native on/off DC3 ever made that I know of. I measured the contrast of the w1070 around 1500:1 on/off (2000+ with the dimmer, but you can't even hardly see a difference by eye), but in some modes I only got just above 1000:1. The native on/off of the w1070 is only slightly better than the Benq w7000.

I think Mitsubishi's problem with their next GEN of DLP's was several fatal engineering mistakes. They tried to make a One-Size fits all projector and went all over the map. They wanted to be like the Sharp 20k and get 10,000:1 on/off (but Mits failed to even get the same on/off as their previous hc4000 unit).

Very sad, they had the correct idea, but they just made some kind of engineering mistake and got it wrong (who knows exactly what mistake, but something with DMD coatings and the way the lens was setup).

Then they still didn't even get the focus uniformity / sharpness issues of the past resolved either. The hc4000 had respectable sharpness for a sub-$1500 projector in its day (during the hc4000's hay day there really wasn't a lot of sharp projectors other than the Benq w6000 or high-end ones).

BUT, if Mits wanted to compete in the +$2000 arena, they needed a better lens, a better DI, and better native on/off.


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post #4890 of 8765 Old 10-12-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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that's a good summary. A number of their projector lines unfortunately lost out to competitors.

The HC LCD series (5500/6500/6800/7000) was overshadowed by the Epson 1080/6500, etc. They never progressed into 3D and the 5010 stole this market.

The HC9000 LCOS was a great 2D projector, but the price was too close to the VW90 which had a better iris. Both the 9000 and VW90 had average, relatively dark 3D. Sony fixed this with the VW95, Mitsubishi never followed up with another LCOS model.

The HC7900/HC8000 3D DLP main issues were relatively low lumen output and imo the death wish of any DLP projector... .

NO real lens shift. I don't care if adding a real lens shift affects contrast due to lens reflections, folks want flexibility with mounting their projector. Limited or fixed offsets are ok for cheap 1k DLP's but not at 3k+. Runco/Planar, Sim2, BQ and Sharp all managed to come out with DLP's with flexible lens shift.

Although that didn't help Sharp who also exited the HT market. The 30K was just too much $$ considering the competition in 2012. imo, one of the silent 'killers' was the excellent RS45/RS46 pricing from JVC. It could be one of the reason's that Panasonic skipped this year and who knows if they will come out with another HT projector next year.

I read Art's doom and gloom article, but I don't think it's that bad. Spending money @ Cedia for BQ, Optima, etc doesn't make sense given their market, plus their upcoming models aren't out yet.

There's plenty of cool stuff to check out this year, the new Sony 4K projector + updated VW1000, JVC's with a DI (hell has frozen over, The Eagles can re-unite once again), an affordable 3D DLP with an LED light engine, BQ's updated W7500, Sony HW55, Epson 5030, etc.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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