Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 172 - AVS Forum
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post #5131 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post

I saw this reference in another thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381679/official-benq-w7000-owners-thread/3690#post_23955422

It's not < $1800, but someone just purchased the Z30K for about $2K with a 4 year warranty....

Thanks
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post #5132 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yes, we should have bought all the Sharps, but if you bought them all yourself, then we'd think you were bias'd even though you appear to not be :0
You are the last unbiased source we have for reviews, so be careful :P

I am not sure about the 3D brightness thing, but I'm assuming glasses and different MFR techniques can make 10-25% difference, and remember our eyes cannot really see 10% to 20% difference in brightness much at certain points (at some points they can). Since the light reception of how we perceive light is not linear just like contrast, sometimes our eyes can suddenly see a noticeable difference at 25% whereas at 15%-20% there was no noticeable difference. That's why it's hard to tell just by the eye.

So by measurements there was only a 25% to 30% difference between the 3010 and Sharp's 3D brightness, so I'm guessing the glasses are the rest of the difference, what do you think?

I have to look at it closer and measure it, I was just surprised to see how similar it looked in an A/B stack using the same source. The shutter timing is the obvious suspect. A good example was the Mitsubishi HC5. The 3D lumen output was reasonably bright before the glasses but it drops quite a bit when the shutters are activated. More so than I recall seeing with other projectors.

Art of Flight 3D is about as bright of a 3D disk as you can get yet it was still too dim with the HC5 dead center on the 2.8.

HC5-8.jpg

HC5-9.jpg

I was watching several hours of 3D on the Sharp the other night and it looked great. The big difference between the 30K and the W7000 is no RBE in 3D and the perceived contrast through the glasses. I know much it is due to the DLP Link vs. RF + the Sharp has higher native contrast which helps a bit. During dark scenes in 3D movies like Pacific Rim, it looks very good, no complaints.

The projector isn't perfect, it needs helps with the color gamut which I can tweak in a bit with the lumagen, but for 3D it's good enough. Most people are going to think it looks ok in 3D. Greyscale is easy to calibrate, it's surprising how well it tracks from 10-100. It's also very sharp with no need for added processing.

sharp-3d7.jpg

The Rock still wants to know if you can smell what he is cooking..

sharp-3d6.jpg


There is something about this projector I really like. If it wasn't available, the 5030 would be my next choice for 3D. Great color in 3D after calibration, comfortable RF glasses and very little, if any perceivable flicker which is great for my eyes/brain. Adding in the subtle FI that I prefer over Sony's implementation in the HW50, there isn't much to complain about for it's 3D performance.

One of our members sent over the Epson LPE filter so it will be interesting to see how bright 3D looks once the greyscale is tamed a bit by that filter.
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post #5133 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

About 72 hours.... smile.gif

I need a few days to get it dialed in and should have a chance to compare it to the RS55 soon. First impressions on perceived contrast is that it's quite good, especially intra-scene contrast. There is a fade to black scene in Oblivion that looks excellent on the Sony, zero bright corners that I can usually see on the JVC's including an X35 I have here. The HP makes it stand out, but it's impressive to see how uniform the panel is.


JC - I watched some scenes from Pacific Rim on the 5030, it was definitely better than the 'mini-imax' presentation at my local theater. Contrast and colors were a bit blah and I wanted to scream after being forced to use circular polarizing glasses, they were awful and could invoke crosstalk with just a bit of head movement.

The 5030 could end up with the non-DLP 3D crown this year, we have to see how the HW55 and new JVC's compare. So far though it gets a high score imo.

Zombie,

Where's the RS55 comparison? You are the only one i trust to do it properly, without bias. i bought an RS55 this year because of you. I now want to know how much of an upgrade the VW1000 truly is. Thanks in advance. I really appreciate all you have done on these shootouts.

Best,
John
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post #5134 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 09:59 AM
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I'm more interest in his comparison of the 1000ES to the 500/600ES. If the lens is that much better to provide a significant difference.
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post #5135 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nohjy View Post

Zombie,

Where's the RS55 comparison? You are the only one i trust to do it properly, without bias. i bought an RS55 this year because of you. I now want to know how much of an upgrade the VW1000 truly is. Thanks in advance. I really appreciate all you have done on these shootouts.

Best,
John

John, Hi I haven't had a chance to compare the 2 yet. I'm trying to get my 4K HTPC sorted out so I can have a number of different options to look at when comparing 1080P 2D upscaling.

When you look at raw NEF files from my Nikon D90 is when you can see where all the $$ goes for the panels and high quality lens. It really looks amazing and very life-like compared to the 1080P projectors, especially sitting relatively close to my 142". Some of the 4K demos I've seen look remarkable as well, several steps above the best 1080P content out there.

I'll have more time with the upcoming thanksgiving break to give some input between the 55 and the 1000.
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post #5136 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


John, Hi I haven't had a chance to compare the 2 yet. I'm trying to get my 4K HTPC sorted out so I can have a number of different options to look at when comparing 1080P 2D upscaling.

When you look at raw NEF files from my Nikon D90 is when you can see where all the $$ goes for the panels and high quality lens. It really looks amazing and very life-like compared to the 1080P projectors, especially sitting relatively close to my 142". Some of the 4K demos I've seen look remarkable as well, several steps above the best 1080P content out there.

I'll have more time with the upcoming thanksgiving break to give some input between the 55 and the 1000.

Zombie,

Thanks! Having seen 4K on an ultra-high-end 4K 70 inch monitor, I know what 4K looks like and there is no doubt about it - Its a game-changer. However there is really very little content for it. Until then, I really want to know how the RS55 and the VW1000 compare upscaling 1080P. I will be getting a 4K projector, but it will probably be another 18 months before I am willing to invest in it. I want to make sure the final specs for 4K are built into the hardware.

Thanks again for your thoughts and happy holidays to you and yours!

John
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post #5137 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 04:03 PM
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Just FYI, it's possible for anyone to see 4k without 4k, just sit farther back, it will be equivalent to what our eyes can resolve if you look at the screen from enough distance (hence it will be the same as viewing 4k). Of course you will have to view a smaller image at 2k to get the same effect as 4k, so it's not exactly the same, but it would be from a sense of how much detail your eyes can see at a different distance. Of course that does not take into account better source masters and color variance, but we don't any/many of those yet...

An interesting test is to take a few steps back from the screen slowly until you stop noticing an improvement in sharpness or quality, it'll be quite a few steps backwards from where most of us sit, so 4k will definitely help a bit.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
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post #5138 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 04:13 PM
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Page 11 of the December Electronic House digital Magazine shows a JVC Ad for e-Shift3 !
Anyone know what they are bringing to the table with this next version ?
Scott................smile.gif

"Home Theatre is a Journey , not a Destination "
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post #5139 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

There is 1 legit ebay seller left with great feedback that has a few left @ $2699.


The woot price was a steal @ 1799, I should have bought a few and flipped them on ebay.. biggrin.gif

 

So would you consider $2699 to still be a fair price for a Z30K?  I'm leaning towards that model over a 50ES. solely because of the powered zoom.  Also, that eBay seller happens to be just up the road from me.  I might see if he does local pickup, might be able to buy it direct and knock some off that price. 

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post #5140 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 11:31 PM
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Sounds like the best price still going on from a reputable dealer, as there aren't many left. Is it fair, well at this stage of the game I suppose.
There isn't anything to match the Sharp yet in 3D that we know of.

Maybe one day smile.gif


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post #5141 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Sounds like the best price still going on from a reputable dealer, as there aren't many left. Is it fair, well at this stage of the game I suppose.
There isn't anything to match the Sharp yet in 3D that we know of.

Maybe one day smile.gif

I think you mean anything to match it at a reasonable price. smile.gif
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post #5142 of 8917 Old 11-17-2013, 11:44 PM
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There might be something above 10k, but most of those above 10k projectors are not that bright and also are not center mount. So yah at a reasonable price, but not sure in the above 10k market.


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post #5143 of 8917 Old 11-18-2013, 12:14 PM
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Hey guys, I posted this over in the 5030 thread but I know Zombie and Coder check this board more regularly smile.gif

So I'm trying to decide if having my Epson 5030 would benefit from being ceiling mounted as opposed to my current shelf mount setup. The Epson sits about 17-18ft away from my Elite Screens EZ Frame 1.1 gain screen. I think I can get the projector close to 10 or 11 ft if I ceiling mount it. I'm definitely not having issues with the brightness performance but every little bit in 3D would be appreciated.

My main reason for wanting to ceiling mount is having a uniformly sharp and in focus image. I'm having issues getting the picture completely in focus in its entirety. When I get it perfectly sharp in the center, the right hand or left hand side will be a little blurry. I've gotten it dialed in the best I can, but it's never perfect. Maybe I've heard wrong but I'm under the impression that the closer you have the projector to the screen and the less lens shift being used, the less focus issues the projector will have.

I have someone coming out on Wednesday and for the mount and all, it's going to cost around $300. I'm nervous because I'm not sure the ceiling mount will make a $300 difference and I might cancel before then. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

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post #5144 of 8917 Old 11-18-2013, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bjorndadwarf View Post

So would you consider $2699 to still be a fair price for a Z30K?  I'm leaning towards that model over a 50ES. solely because of the powered zoom.  Also, that eBay seller happens to be just up the road from me.  I might see if he does local pickup, might be able to buy it direct and knock some off that price. 

it's probably the last chance to get this projector new. What are you main viewing habits? TV, Bluray, is 3D important?, etc.

also info about the room and screen size would help deciding between those 2 models.
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post #5145 of 8917 Old 11-18-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


it's probably the last chance to get this projector new. What are you main viewing habits? TV, Bluray, is 3D important?, etc.

also info about the room and screen size would help deciding between those 2 models.

 

The primary uses will be gaming, Bluray movies/tv shows and some football and basketball.  Both my wife and are avid gamers, and each have our own Xbox and own gaming PC.  And that's why I'm interested in the Sharp at all.  It's one of the few models in that price range that has motorized zoom, but it's brighter than the Mitsi HC5 (plus not the sheer physical size of the HC5).  I picked up a used professional video processor that lets me put multiple sources on a single screen.  So we can watch movies or game by ourselves on a 106 inch screen, and then when we want to play a game in co-op together, we can each have our own screen side-by-side out of the same projector.  I've tested it out on my current TV and was pretty happy with the results as far as image quality and input lag was concerned. The advantage to a pj with a motorized zoom and lens memory is that I could easily zoom the image out to 140 inches when we're playing together and we would then each have a 70 inch screen.  If I go that route, I'll build my own screen and masking system.  I'm pretty darned handy, so something like that won't be a problem.  Whereas if I go with the 50ES, then I probably won't mess with ever adjusting the zoom and we'll both just use 50 inch screens. 

 

3D is far less important, even though I know that the Sharp is top-of-class for 3D.  It will probably be the kind of thing I only use once in a great while. 

 

The room is about 13' 3" x 20', and the pj can be oriented either way.  I'm actually leaning towards mounting it the short way because of how I like the room setup.  The screen will be 106", give or take a few inches.  And if I need a longer throw, that direction, it's possible to put a hole in the wall and have the pj extend into the next room some, so it would look a lot like the hole in a movie theater!  The room it would be extending into isn't one where we would mind that happening.  The room will be repainted in much darker colors soon.  Not black, but likely a dark rust or dark brown.  It's a first floor living room, but we have fairly good light control in it for a family room.  I can get it down to near night levels during the day if I want, though we rarely use the TV during the day.  I basically got carte blanche from my wife to do what I wanted with the room, so long as it's not black and that everything looks nice and finished once I'm done. 

 

I'll probably order a pj sometime in the next week or so.  I actually ordered raw material from Carl's Place today so I'll have a material on hand to hang on the wall and decide final size, position and options for an extended screen if I go with the Sharp or another motorized pj. 

 

Thanks for any thoughts or advice you have!

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post #5146 of 8917 Old 11-18-2013, 10:44 PM
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Sharp has 70-80 ms input lag which is really bad for gaming. Your best bet is Sony HW50.
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post #5147 of 8917 Old 11-18-2013, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JewDaddy View Post

Hey guys, I posted this over in the 5030 thread but I know Zombie and Coder check this board more regularly smile.gif

So I'm trying to decide if having my Epson 5030 would benefit from being ceiling mounted as opposed to my current shelf mount setup. The Epson sits about 17-18ft away from my Elite Screens EZ Frame 1.1 gain screen. I think I can get the projector close to 10 or 11 ft if I ceiling mount it. I'm definitely not having issues with the brightness performance but every little bit in 3D would be appreciated.

My main reason for wanting to ceiling mount is having a uniformly sharp and in focus image. I'm having issues getting the picture completely in focus in its entirety. When I get it perfectly sharp in the center, the right hand or left hand side will be a little blurry. I've gotten it dialed in the best I can, but it's never perfect. Maybe I've heard wrong but I'm under the impression that the closer you have the projector to the screen and the less lens shift being used, the less focus issues the projector will have.

I have someone coming out on Wednesday and for the mount and all, it's going to cost around $300. I'm nervous because I'm not sure the ceiling mount will make a $300 difference and I might cancel before then. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

It might make a big difference in focus, it might not. Set it up on top of a step ladder where you want to mount it--carefully!--and see what it does for you. Then you'll know how much of a difference it will make for your lens. You'll definitely get a LOT more brightness out of it. Best focus might be anywhere between where you have it now and where you're thinking of. The only way to know is to try it.
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post #5148 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Sharp has 70-80 ms input lag which is really bad for gaming. Your best bet is Sony HW50.

 

Really?  Is that running it in Game mode?  That's unexpected.  It had seemed like the vast majority of DLP projectors all had pretty good latency.  I hadn't seen any with input lag that bad. 

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post #5149 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 07:35 AM
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The amount of detail in this thread eek.gif .... If there's one thing I can say about this thread, its 'very informative' rolleyes.gif ... Somebody here (*cough* Zombie *cough*) can probably do a PhD on projectors ! cool.gif

Anyways, I wanted to ask, where is there a comparison of Epson 5030 with other mainstream projectors for its 2D and 3D performance ..

I'm currently trying to decide if its better to get a JVC RS-46 + a budget Optoma projector, or just get an Epson 5030 or Sony HW50 .. All 3 are highly recommended options, but I want to know which suits me more ..

90% of all my viewing is 2D, half of which is movies, and half TV shows .. Don't really watch sports, but do occasionally play PS3, etc ..

The thing which interests me is how many people claim that JVC is the main player as far as 2D quality is concerned, and that its 2D output is very 'film-like' .. I'm not sure what this means exactly, but I assume it means that the 2D picture quality is just what you see in commercial cinemas .. If that's so, it's something I'd really like, as I watch a lot of 2D movies, and won't mind a cinema in my own home's basement ! wink.gif

My throw distance will be somewhere between 16' and 18', on a 1.1 gain screen, in an almost light controlled room ..

The thing which scared me a little though is that projectorcentral's calculator for JVC RS-46 suggests that the output of this projector won't be bright enough from ~17' far away :/ .. I can use a 1.1 gain screen, but still I'd like to know if this is something to be worried about or not ..
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post #5150 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi, I made a recommendation in one of your many other threads.

I would pick up the Epson 5030 and see how you like it. It has a nice combination of 2D and 3D PQ. It has better 3D than the RS46 and HW50 if 3D is important. If 2D is the main concern, then the RS46 is a great choice.

If you saw all 3 of these at the same time, you'll likely be impressed with all 3 models. These are all very good projectors in this price category, each with unique strengths.

If you don't like the 5030, you can easily flip it with relatively minimal loss. I bet you will keep it though. Try not to get stuck in analysis paralysis by reading tons of reviews, each says something which can make you doubt your purchase.
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post #5151 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjorndadwarf View Post

Really?  Is that running it in Game mode?  That's unexpected.  It had seemed like the vast majority of DLP projectors all had pretty good latency.  I hadn't seen any with input lag that bad.
I did the tests myself: http://imageshack.us/a/img254/9864/dsc8881.jpg
Picture mode doesn't really influence input lag. I believe this was shot on Game mode. 1/1000th of a second shutter speed, against Sony FW900 CRT monitor.
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post #5152 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 08:17 AM
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I did the tests myself: http://imageshack.us/a/img254/9864/dsc8881.jpg
Picture mode doesn't really influence input lag. I believe this was shot on Game mode. 1/1000th of a second shutter speed, against Sony FW900 CRT monitor.

Wow, thanks, that was really unexpected.  I hadn't found anyone who had specifically tested the Z30K for latency, and had just assumed it would be fine as a DLP.  That makes the decision easier by eliminating that option.

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post #5153 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bjorndadwarf View Post

Wow, thanks, that was really unexpected.  I hadn't found anyone who had specifically tested the Z30K for latency, and had just assumed it would be fine as a DLP.  That makes the decision easier by eliminating that option.

Some of the cheap DLP's have decent lag rates but then you're typically dealing with average contrast and RBE.

The Sony HW50 still leads with lag time in this price category (2-4k).
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post #5154 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Hi, I made a recommendation in one of your many other threads.

I would pick up the Epson 5030 and see how you like it. It has a nice combination of 2D and 3D PQ. It has better 3D than the RS46 and HW50 if 3D is important. If 2D is the main concern, then the RS46 is a great choice.

If you saw all 3 of these at the same time, you'll likely be impressed with all 3 models. These are all very good projectors in this price category, each with unique strengths.

If you don't like the 5030, you can easily flip it with relatively minimal loss. I bet you will keep it though. Try not to get stuck in analysis paralysis by reading tons of reviews, each says something which can make you doubt your purchase.

What about the throw distance question, regarding JVC RS-46 ? projectorcentral's calculator for JVC RS-46 suggests that the output of this projector won't be bright enough from ~17' far away :/ .. I can use a 1.1 gain screen, but still I'd like to know if this is something to be worried about or not ..

I'm actually importing my HT room equipment from the US as its much cheaper this way, so 'flipping' won't be so easy for me because then I'll have to re-import another projector later on, which is an option I cannot depend on .. So assuming that I can only buy whatever I want now, which will be a better option from these:

JVC RS-46 + a budget Optoma for 3D
Just an Epson 5030

I know you've already recommended Epson 5030, but I think you recommended that assuming I'll be able to change projectors later on ... What if I can't do that, will you still recommend an Epson 5030 over a combination of JVC RS-46 + a budget Optoma for 3D ?

90% of all my content is 2D, so if the JVC RS-46 does this better, why sacrifice it ? The gain would be an improvement in 3D, which I only see 10% anyways ..

This is just my view on this all, but if you still think that a single Epson 5030 is what I should get (without assuming I can upgrade anytime soon), let me know ..
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post #5155 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 08:40 AM
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Some of the cheap DLP's have decent lag rates but then you're typically dealing with average contrast and RBE.

The Sony HW50 still leads with lag time in this price category (2-4k).

 

I started off shopping for the more budget ones, as this will be my first projector and first home theater and I didn't know a lot about setting one up.  But I can legitimately afford something more expensive, and so decided I would just go in whole hog and get something with better contrast, blacks and picture. Looks like it's going to be a 50ES.

 

Thanks a ton guys!

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post #5156 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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post #5157 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bjorndadwarf View Post

I started off shopping for the more budget ones, as this will be my first projector and first home theater and I didn't know a lot about setting one up.  But I can legitimately afford something more expensive, and so decided I would just go in whole hog and get something with better contrast, blacks and picture. Looks like it's going to be a 50ES.

Thanks a ton guys!

The HW50 is a nice all around 2D and 3D projector and was very popular last year. It leads with lag time if gaming is important so I'm sure you'll be pleased with it when you get it.
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post #5158 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 08:55 AM
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ahmadka - How big is the screen?

About 120" I would say .. 16:9 ratio .. Throw distance approx. 17 feet .. Will probably be a 1.1 gain screen ..
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post #5159 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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3D brightness could be a challenge at that size with low gain, you lose a significant amount of light once the glasses are activated. The 5030 has a torch mode that is quite bright in 3D and would be your best best if 3D is an interest.
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post #5160 of 8917 Old 11-19-2013, 09:16 AM
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3D brightness could be a challenge at that size with low gain, you lose a significant amount of light once the glasses are activated. The 5030 has a torch mode that is quite bright in 3D and would be your best best if 3D is an interest.

You've been very informative in this thread and others as well regarding the 5030 and was wondering if "put on the stand" and "placed under oath",would you be able to state that outside the incredible Sharp you have for 3D viewing, this Epson would be your choice for 3D whether it would be up against another DLP or any other projector... Just curious.

Thanks,
Ben
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