Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 178 - AVS Forum
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post #5311 of 8715 Old 11-25-2013, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

Does anyone know how the official Sony Specs compare for both the HW50,55
Doesn't seem too difficult to find online - Sony has them published on their various international sites.
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post #5312 of 8715 Old 11-25-2013, 08:20 PM
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I will thanks , curious to see if there were speced to have different Lumen outputs?
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post #5313 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 06:35 AM
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Face to Face Epson 6030 vs Sony HW55:

Doing the face to face was more difficult than I thought. As everybody knows, for the faceoff to mean something, the projector need to be calibrated perfectly, I choose to calibrate at REC709, D65 and gamma 2.2 and set the light output to the same FL for each projector. So it take me couples of hours to make sure all the calibration and lumen was ok on both projectors and also that no other settings influenced my initial impression on image quality.

I am not naïve and I know that the face to face is not objectives. So those results are base on my personals experiences and opinions only.

For the record, I use a 110 inch EluneVision 1.0 gain fix screen and a 133 inchs drop down 2.35:1 High Power 2.4 gain screen. My seating position is at 10 foot from the screen and both projector lens was position at 12 foot from the screen. My home theatre is a black hole with black wall, floor and roof.

I am not an expert and I am no Zombie but I do know projectors and calibrations. I’ve tested and own many projectors. My last ones were the JVC RS4810, Sony VW95, Sony HW50, JVC RS45, EPSON 5020, Sony HW30 and I also tested couples of DLP like the BenQ 7000, BenQ W1500 and BenQ W1070, and many mores… (The next one on my list is the VW500)

Sorry for the big introduction but I thought it will be useful to know what’s my setup and where I came from to help put my observation in perspective.

Here my faceoff results:

Calibration: Both projectors are pretty close to REC709 , D65 and gamma 2.2 out of the box. For the Epson I get the best result starting with Natural Mode low lamp. As for the Sony, Reference or Cinema 1 is a good starting point but need little adjustment to get to D65. Epson has made good stride in pre-calibration department because the 5020 I tested last year was not even close to that.

General 2D observations: For the price, I am really impressed with the Epson. When projected on the same screen at the same time, the Epson and Sony images are more alike than different. Untrained eye could believe it’s the same projector. Considering the price difference, that a big plus for the Epson. However, when you look closer and with more difficult scene the Sony have the edge in black level, image depth and image perceived clarity. I know the lens on the Sony is a bit less sharp but the image from my seating distance look a bit more solid and more precise than de Epson.

Black level: The winner is the Sony. If both dynamic iris are off, the Sony win. The black is darker and by a noticeable amount in low APL scene but also in mid brightness scene. With the Sony you get a better sense of depth (look like maybe the ANSI contrast is better). If you turn both dynamic iris ON, the black level on low APL scene are more of the same with maybe a hair or two better on the Sony.

Dynamic iris: The winner here is Sony without a doubt. The Epson is noisier and the pumping effect can be seen couples of times per movie. As for the Sony, the iris is dead quiet and can be seen very rarely.

3D Ghosting and flickering: The winner is the Epson. I let the projectors warm up a big 45 minutes before testing any 3D. The Epson really impress me on this one. If you set the glasses brightness on “medium” it gives you a very clean 3D with a very small amount of ghosting and no visible flickering. It’s by far the best 3D I have seen in my theatre (non DLP). As for the Sony, the ghosting is more visible (surprisingly by a good margin) and there a small flickering in bright scene.

Super Resolution vs Reality Creation: The RC on the Sony is the same as the HW50 and the Super Resolution is the same as the 5020. To me, the RC even at minimum setting is a bit too much so I prefer the Super Resolution (on position 2 or 3)

To conclude, everything can be summarize as this: the Sony HW55 is better in 2D and the Epson better in 3D. Pretty much the same conclusion everybody already knows… Did not have to spend a week-end on that biggrin.gif

That’s it for now, I have more info to share but have no more time to write...

If you have specific question please let me know.
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post #5314 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

So if what RickAVManiaac and the french review has shown about less lumens for the HW55,... can we say that if your main concern is 2D , the HW50 could be a better choice??

...Newbie just looking for the best candidates for my room ??

I would wait until Zombie has had a chance to review the HW55 and compare it to the Epson 5030 and a JVC before buying. Either that or find a dealer who will demo these projectors for you. It's too bad these projectors weren't released all at the same time.

My Sony HW55 mesured 16.5 fl out of the box (low lamp cinema 1). My old HW50 mesured 18 fl out of the box (low lamp cinema 1).

I know it's only one sample and unit to unit variation append, but for me base on MY sample the HW55 is a bit less bright than the HW50 out of the box.
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post #5315 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'm not sure how to explain those observations, I don't recall seeing any specific projector 'pop' more in 3D assuming all conditions are the same (same source, 3D settings left alone), etc.

I think 3D performance in general from all the current projectors is quite good for the general masses, especially after seeing the poor showing of Pacific Rim at my local 'premiere' digital imax theater.

it's the OCD crew that obsesses over the fine details like background x-talk and flicker. I'm personally stuck on this Sharp 30K. I realize it's not a perfect projector but it checks off all the right buttons for my 3D viewing preferences.

Actually, I do understand what Kraine is trying to say. On the HW55 I tested, the image seem to pop-up a bit more than the same clip with the Epson 6030. I Try many clip and pretty much all of them pop-up more on the Sony. Not by any significant amount to choose the Sony over the Epson. I dont know if it is related to that but the Sony HW55 have more ghosting that the 6030...
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post #5316 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Face to Face Epson 6030 vs Sony HW55:

Doing the face to face was more difficult than I thought. As everybody knows, for the faceoff to mean something, the projector need to be calibrated perfectly, I choose to calibrate at REC709, D65 and gamma 2.2 and set the light output to the same FL for each projector. So it take me couples of hours to make sure all the calibration and lumen was ok on both projectors and also that no other settings influenced my initial impression on image quality.

I am not naïve and I know that the face to face is not objectives. So those results are base on my personals experiences and opinions only.

For the record, I use a 110 inch EluneVision 1.0 gain fix screen and a 133 inchs drop down 2.35:1 High Power 2.4 gain screen. My seating position is at 10 foot from the screen and both projector lens was position at 12 foot from the screen. My home theatre is a black hole with black wall, floor and roof.

I am not an expert and I am no Zombie but I do know projectors and calibrations. I’ve tested and own many projectors. My last ones were the JVC RS4810, Sony VW95, Sony HW50, JVC RS45, EPSON 5020, Sony HW30 and I also tested couples of DLP like the BenQ 7000, BenQ W1500 and BenQ W1070, and many mores… (The next one on my list is the VW500)

Sorry for the big introduction but I thought it will be useful to know what’s my setup and where I came from to help put my observation in perspective.

Here my faceoff results:

Calibration: Both projectors are pretty close to REC709 , D65 and gamma 2.2 out of the box. For the Epson I get the best result starting with Natural Mode low lamp. As for the Sony, Reference or Cinema 1 is a good starting point but need little adjustment to get to D65. Epson has made good stride in pre-calibration department because the 5020 I tested last year was not even close to that.

General 2D observations: For the price, I am really impressed with the Epson. When projected on the same screen at the same time, the Epson and Sony images are more alike than different. Untrained eye could believe it’s the same projector. Considering the price difference, that a big plus for the Epson. However, when you look closer and with more difficult scene the Sony have the edge in black level, image depth and image perceived clarity. I know the lens on the Sony is a bit less sharp but the image from my seating distance look a bit more solid and more precise than de Epson.

Black level: The winner is the Sony. If both dynamic iris are off, the Sony win. The black is darker and by a noticeable amount in low APL scene but also in mid brightness scene. With the Sony you get a better sense of depth (look like maybe the ANSI contrast is better). If you turn both dynamic iris ON, the black level on low APL scene are more of the same with maybe a hair or two better on the Sony.

Dynamic iris: The winner here is Sony without a doubt. The Epson is noisier and the pumping effect can be seen couples of times per movie. As for the Sony, the iris is dead quiet and can be seen very rarely.

3D Ghosting and flickering: The winner is the Epson. I let the projectors warm up a big 45 minutes before testing any 3D. The Epson really impress me on this one. If you set the glasses brightness on “medium” it gives you a very clean 3D with a very small amount of ghosting and no visible flickering. It’s by far the best 3D I have seen in my theatre (non DLP). As for the Sony, the ghosting is more visible (surprisingly by a good margin) and there a small flickering in bright scene.

Super Resolution vs Reality Creation: The RC on the Sony is the same as the HW50 and the Super Resolution is the same as the 5020. To me, the RC even at minimum setting is a bit too much so I prefer the Super Resolution (on position 2 or 3)

To conclude, everything can be summarize as this: the Sony HW55 is better in 2D and the Epson better in 3D. Pretty much the same conclusion everybody already knows… Did not have to spend a week-end on that biggrin.gif

That’s it for now, I have more info to share but have no more time to write...

If you have specific question please let me know.


how about the noise level of the Epson in 3D?
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post #5317 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 07:24 AM
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how about the noise level of the Epson in 3D?

I did not measured the noise since I don't have the equipment for that, but by ear only I would say noticeable in high lamp mode and in 3D mode. Not that much distracting and can be forget when focusing on the movie.

As for the Sony HW55 much much quieter...
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post #5318 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Face to Face Epson 6030 vs Sony HW55:

For the record, I use a 110 inch EluneVision 1.0 gain fix screen and a 133 inchs drop down 2.35:1 High Power 2.4 gain screen. My seating position is at 10 foot from the screen and both projector lens was position at 12 foot from the screen. My home theatre is a black hole with black wall, floor and roof.

Thank you for your efforts on this, it is much appreciated. I was planning on using one of these PJs with a 1.0 gain screen in a blackout theater, with very similar dimensions - 106" screen and about a 12 foot throw. What was your impression of the brightness in 3D for both projectors, using the 1.0 gain screen?
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post #5319 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Rick, thanks very much for taking your time to post your impressions, that is great info for others to read!

I thought Epson did a great job this year with the out of the box color, Natural, low lamp setting. If you get a chance, check out the saturation tracking on the Epson, it's surprising how well it performs. The Sony does a great job here as well so Epson caught up this year.

3D is also very good overall, but Monster vs. Aliens can still give it some trouble. In all fairness, it's one of the toughest 3D movies.

What are your thoughts on the Sony glass vs. Epson?
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post #5320 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Rick, thanks very much for taking your time to post your impressions, that is great info for others to read!

I thought Epson did a great job this year with the out of the box color, Natural, low lamp setting. If you get a chance, check out the saturation tracking on the Epson, it's surprising how well it performs. The Sony does a great job here as well so Epson caught up this year.

3D is also very good overall, but Monster vs. Aliens can still give it some trouble. In all fairness, it's one of the toughest 3D movies.

What are your thoughts on the Sony glass vs. Epson?

Out of the box color tracking on the Epson is extremely good for this kind of budget projector. Here my measurement with Chromapure


As for the 3D glasses, I really like the Epson better, lightweight and RF.
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post #5321 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 09:45 AM
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Rick, you have already stated the calibrated light output of the Sony but, what about the Epson? Which is brighter after calibration in 2D?
Thanks!
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post #5322 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I can give you some quick info on the 5030 vs. HW50 calibrated lumen output, I haven't seen the HW55 yet.

@ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9, the HW50 (high lamp) was ~900 lumens @ D65. The Epson 5030 was ~700 in Natural mode (high lamp) and around 1100 lumens in living room mode (high lamp) with very close to D65.
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post #5323 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 11:09 AM
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Ok, So the Epson is brighter than the Sony when both calibrated and High lamp is used. Low lamp mode for both goes to the Sony. Thanks Z!
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post #5324 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 11:48 AM
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For anyone who has used a front projector for more than 10 years the quality of these new machines for the price is almost unfathomable. Eight years ago 720p projectors were selling for over $10,000 and were nowhere close to the performance of the $2,500 1080p projectors you can buy today. Add some pretty impressive 3D to the equation and almost everyone here should be extremely happy. Personally I think things will just keep getting better and better. I'd like to see 3D as clean as DLP can do it, but its getting there. I've seen so many changes in the 14 years I've visited this forum and I've purchased way too many projectors -- CRTs, DLPs and LCDs -- in total 12. Almost one for each year. I gotta stay away from here. Damn I just ordered two more. biggrin.gif
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post #5325 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

For anyone who has used a front projector for more than 10 years the quality of these new machines for the price is almost unfathomable. Eight years ago 720p projectors were selling for over $10,000 and were nowhere close to the performance of the $2,500 1080p projectors you can buy today. Add some pretty impressive 3D to the equation and almost everyone here should be extremely happy. Personally I think things will just keep getting better and better. I'd like to see 3D as clean as DLP can do it, but its getting there. I've seen so many changes in the 14 years I've visited this forum and I've purchased way too many projectors -- CRTs, DLPs and LCDs -- in total 12. Almost one for each year. I gotta stay away from here. Damn I just ordered two more. biggrin.gif

smile.gif,..which ones?
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post #5326 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I can give you some quick info on the 5030 vs. HW50 calibrated lumen output, I haven't seen the HW55 yet.

@ 17 feet from my 142" 16:9, the HW50 (high lamp) was ~900 lumens @ D65. The Epson 5030 was ~700 in Natural mode (high lamp) and around 1100 lumens in living room mode (high lamp) with very close to D65.

For 2D , Did you Zombie come to the same conclusion between the (5030 vs HW50) as RickAV between the (5030 and HW55) ??

Thanks!
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post #5327 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 01:11 PM
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smile.gif,..which ones?

You'll have to wait -- patience is a virtue.
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post #5328 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

For anyone who has used a front projector for more than 10 years the quality of these new machines for the price is almost unfathomable. Eight years ago 720p projectors were selling for over $10,000 and were nowhere close to the performance of the $2,500 1080p projectors you can buy today. Add some pretty impressive 3D to the equation and almost everyone here should be extremely happy. Personally I think things will just keep getting better and better. I'd like to see 3D as clean as DLP can do it, but its getting there. I've seen so many changes in the 14 years I've visited this forum and I've purchased way too many projectors -- CRTs, DLPs and LCDs -- in total 12. Almost one for each year. I gotta stay away from here. Damn I just ordered two more. biggrin.gif

That's good to know. I still have a Sharp xvz12000 mkII that I fired up last night. I haven't watched it in about 6 months because we moved to a new house and it's taken that long to get the room ready. I must say, it was a little underwhelming. This thing was awesome when I first got it 6 years ago, and it still puts out a very sharp picture, but the lack of brightness and mediocre black levels is starting to grate on me. I should be upgrading this holiday season. I just have to decide on which one.smile.gif
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post #5329 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Face to Face Epson 6030 vs Sony HW55:



To conclude, everything can be summarize as this: the Sony HW55 is better in 2D and the Epson better in 3D. Pretty much the same conclusion everybody already knows… Did not have to spend a week-end on that biggrin.gif

That’s it for now, I have more info to share but have no more time to write...

If you have specific question please let me know.

If you didn't have the Epson to compare, would you still consider the 3D of the Sony55 to be high quality? Would you enjoy a 3D movie without complaint or discomfort? Is it only by comparision that the Epson is that much better on ghosting/flicker, or is the Sony problematic in absolute terms?

Thanks!

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #5330 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post

Face to Face Epson 6030 vs Sony HW55:



To conclude, everything can be summarize as this: the Sony HW55 is better in 2D and the Epson better in 3D. Pretty much the same conclusion everybody already knows… Did not have to spend a week-end on that biggrin.gif

That’s it for now, I have more info to share but have no more time to write...

If you have specific question please let me know.

If you didn't have the Epson to compare, would you still consider the 3D of the Sony55 to be high quality? Would you enjoy a 3D movie without complaint or discomfort? Is it only by comparision that the Epson is that much better on ghosting/flicker, or is the Sony problematic in absolute terms?

Thanks!

Yes I still consider the 3D on the Sony HW55 good quality. Better than my JVC 4810.

The only problem, is once you get used to no ghosting (on DLP) or something as good as the Epson 5030/6030 you became less tolerant and more sensitive to ghosting and flickering.

Thats what append with the Sony HW55 and Epson 6030 face off... I tested the Epson first and after a hour I warm-up and test the Sony... The ghosting and flickering was very noticeable and annoying. The next morning iv'e decide to test the 3D on the Sony first. I remember saying to myself "wow not bad". But when I fire up the Epson, I quickly return to my first conclusion...
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post #5331 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 04:53 PM
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Zombie, I sent you a pm about one of your projectors. If you get a chance can you shoot me a response.

 

Thanks, Bill

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post #5332 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 05:08 PM
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So if I might inquire again, did you find the 3D image brightness from these projectors sufficient for 'comfortable' viewing in a darkened theater on a 1.0 gain 110 inch screen, when projected from 12 foot distance? Or did you feel the higher gain screen was necessary for an acceptable level of brightness for a 3D image? It's a subjective call, I realize, but I would be interested in your opinion as the theater environment with the lower gain screen is very similar to mine.
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post #5333 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 06:04 PM
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So if I might inquire again, did you find the 3D image brightness from these projectors sufficient for 'comfortable' viewing in a darkened theater on a 1.0 gain 110 inch screen, when projected from 12 foot distance? Or did you feel the higher gain screen was necessary for an acceptable level of brightness for a 3D image? It's a subjective call, I realize, but I would be interested in your opinion as the theater environment with the lower gain screen is very similar to mine.

On my 1.0 gain screen, the THX 3D mode on the Epson was just enough bright. (at the very limit of being too dim) I prefer to use the Dynamic mode that I calibrated a bit.
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post #5334 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 06:29 PM
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... I prefer to use the Dynamic mode that I calibrated a bit.

Thanks. Based on what I've read so far, I expected with either unit I'd be using one of the higher output modes for 3D, at the possible expense of some image accuracy. The majority of viewing will be in 2D, but I'm glad this setup will give an acceptable level of brightness for the occasional 3D movie - it makes for a nice treat every once in a while.

I like what I've read about the Sony 2D image quality, but if the difference is not huge it's starting to sound like the Epson might be a contender (and the price differential doesn't hurt, with an eye to a possible 4K replacement in the future). The two downsides I've noted so far with the Epson are the noise in high lamp and the white case, but I could possibly address both with a hush box.

Cheers, and thanks again for the info!
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post #5335 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 06:53 PM
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Anything to note on motion blurring between the HW55 and 6030?
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post #5336 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 08:20 PM
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Anything to note on motion blurring between the HW55 and 6030?

Yes, don't consume alcohol before watching a movie with either projector.
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post #5337 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Yes, don't consume alcohol before watching a movie with either projector.

Haha maybe smile.gif but for me, more alcohol could increase my ability to ignore this shortcoming of LCD tech. Thinking I need to try out DLP instead of LCoS but I've not had either type yet.
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post #5338 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 08:41 PM
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Many thanks RickAVManiac for the review. Based on your comments it sounds like both have great color out of the box. The 6030 has a louder fan than the HW55 in 3D mode. The 2D picture is almost the same, with a slight edge to the HW55. The 3D picture is noticeably better on the 6030, although the HW55 is no slouch. Lastly, the 6030 has a pretty good price advantage. Is that a correct summary?
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post #5339 of 8715 Old 11-26-2013, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by purepvd View Post

Anything to note on motion blurring between the HW55 and 6030?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Yes, don't consume alcohol before watching a movie with either projector.

I thought 'FI' and 'Black Frame Insertion' on the Sony was supposed to make motion really good???

Respectfully,
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post #5340 of 8715 Old 11-27-2013, 07:54 AM
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I thought 'FI' and 'Black Frame Insertion' on the Sony was supposed to make motion really good???

They (Epson and Sony) both have FI -- apparently Zombie prefers the Epson's FI in 3D over the Sony's. As far as 2D is concerned I don't use the FI on my Epson for anything but concerts and some use it for sports. It does work reasonably well on some movies in its lowest mode, but it's easier to just leave it off. I don't know much about black frame Insertion except that a lot of members don't like it -- it might exacerbate flicker?

The quote you referred to above was my attempt to add some humour to the discussion. Apparently my attempt was for naught.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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