Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 184 - AVS Forum
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post #5491 of 9760 Old 12-16-2013, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View PostWhat did Sony win?

The best projector!

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post #5492 of 9760 Old 12-16-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

What did Sony win?

Well for starters, they won me back as a customer. I gave up on JVC after all the lamp issues with my RS40. I switched to the Epson for great 3D and price. My 1000ES blows them all out of the water in every department. Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

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post #5493 of 9760 Old 12-16-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

The best projector!

The 1000es been the best for some time now
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post #5494 of 9760 Old 12-16-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Well for starters, they won me back as a customer. I gave up on JVC after all the lamp issues with my RS40. I switched to the Epson for great 3D and price. My 1000ES blows them all out of the water in every department. Sometimes you do get what you pay for.

They have corrected the lamp issues but its hard comparing an entry level jvc to something like the 4k Sonys
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post #5495 of 9760 Old 12-16-2013, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

The 1000es been the best for some time now

Here's my first choice and it's not the Sony.

http://hometheaterreview.com/sim2-m150-led-dlp-hd-front-projector-reviewed/

From the review:

"Conclusion
So how best to wrap up the Sim2 M.150 LED DLP front projector? On one hand, it is among the more expensive front projectors on the market at just under $28,000 (the most expensive LED model currently). On the other hand, it produces arguably the finest image I've ever seen from any projector, period. While the M.150 may not be the value leader among front projectors, LED longevity be damned, its ability to made near-perfect after calibration and the image quality that is enjoyed as a result is nothing short of amazing. If it were me, and I had the means and opportunity to purchase a truly reference-grade, cost-no-object front projector for my home theater or screening room, my list would definitely include the M.150. Having had the opportunity to experience and enjoy the M.150's impeccable image quality, it may be the only high-end front projector on my list at present."
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post #5496 of 9760 Old 12-16-2013, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Here's my first choice and it's not the Sony.

http://hometheaterreview.com/sim2-m150-led-dlp-hd-front-projector-reviewed/

From the review:

"Conclusion
So how best to wrap up the Sim2 M.150 LED DLP front projector? On one hand, it is among the more expensive front projectors on the market at just under $28,000 (the most expensive LED model currently). On the other hand, it produces arguably the finest image I've ever seen from any projector, period. While the M.150 may not be the value leader among front projectors, LED longevity be damned, its ability to made near-perfect after calibration and the image quality that is enjoyed as a result is nothing short of amazing. If it were me, and I had the means and opportunity to purchase a truly reference-grade, cost-no-object front projector for my home theater or screening room, my list would definitely include the M.150. Having had the opportunity to experience and enjoy the M.150's impeccable image quality, it may be the only high-end front projector on my list at present."

You probably wont find one review that chose the 1000es over the M.150. It is about 4-5 that I have seen both and all chose the M.150. I haven't seen the M.150, so I can't comment on it.
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post #5497 of 9760 Old 12-16-2013, 04:30 PM
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Zombie,

Since you've had the JVC RS55 and have tested later models I'm curious about something: The original E-shift (e.g. RS55) models apparently had lowered ANSI contrast due to the way E-shift
was implemented for that time. They changed the process for the next generation which got the ANSI back up to regular levels.

Were you able to detect any visible gains/differences in this area of contrast performance between your RS55 and the later models?

(I always found the fact of the lowered ANSI on the RS55 curious because one of the ways the image looked better to me than my previous RS20 was how the image "popped" more, even in brighter scenes,
which I would have expected from better ANSI, not worse).
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post #5498 of 9760 Old 12-16-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Zombie,

Since you've had the JVC RS55 and have tested later models I'm curious about something: The original E-shift (e.g. RS55) models apparently had lowered ANSI contrast due to the way E-shift
was implemented for that time. They changed the process for the next generation which got the ANSI back up to regular levels.

Were you able to detect any visible gains/differences in this area of contrast performance between your RS55 and the later models?

(I always found the fact of the lowered ANSI on the RS55 curious because one of the ways the image looked better to me than my previous RS20 was how the image "popped" more, even in brighter scenes,
which I would have expected from better ANSI, not worse).

That was one of the first things I wanted to test for with the X90 compared to the X55R. I have to say that I don't see any major difference between the two in terms of ANSI contrast, but my room conditions are hardly perfect for such a comparison.

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post #5499 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 02:39 AM
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BTW Z10K
The monster glasses is quite sensitive to the angel and distance to screen - especially by head movements up and Down.
dj

Is Monster using that angel to combat ghosting? biggrin.giftongue.gif
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post #5500 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 12:02 PM
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I just received my tracking number, my VW500 should be here tomorow eek.gif
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post #5501 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 12:45 PM
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Frade to black has aways been of interest to me. A few years ago I owned two CRT front projectors, a Marquee 8500 LC and a Sony G90, both of which were gamma corrected in order to allow them to fade to black. It took some effort and expense to achieve a fade to black with these projectors so you can imagine my utter surprise and delight when my digital Mits HC8000 effortlessly and instantaneously faded to black when called upon to do so while I was watching Pacific Rim 3D (quite a few fades in this movie). I have read all the reviews I could find about the Mits HC8000 prior to purchasing it and nowhere was its ability to fade to black mentioned. If I had known of its ability to fade to black I probably would have purchased this projector a year ago. It will only do this as long as Iris 3 is engaged and perhaps none of the reviewers were interested in experimenting with the various iris configurations. Anyway, for me at least, this is a huge bonus -- like the icing on a very good cake. The Epson 6010 and 6020 attempt a fade to black; however, you can see the iris making an effort to close down over a few seconds and in the end can never achieve a total fade. The Sharp's iris doesn't attempt a fade to black. Apparently some of the LED projectors will do a fade to black. With the Mits there's no hesitation -- the fade to black happens seamlessly. The Mits has some seriously positive attributes, which are: (1) very good CFI; (2) an exceptional Iris system and (3) stellar 3D. The downside of this projector is its limited brightness and properly placing it to retain the benefits of an HP screen is a bitch. However, where's there's a will there's a way. Now to do some 2D viewing with the Mits.
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post #5502 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 12:54 PM
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Is Monster using that angel to combat ghosting? biggrin.giftongue.gif

It's that whole good vs evil thing. Good Angels against evil ghosting. smile.gif

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post #5503 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 12:59 PM
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I just received my tracking number, my VW500 should be here tomorow eek.gif

Now I see why you canceled the JVC.

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post #5504 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Frade to black has aways been of interest to me. A few years ago I owned two CRT front projectors, a Marquee 8500 LC and a Sony G90, both of which were gamma corrected in order to allow them to fade to black. It took some effort and expense to achieve a fade to black with these projectors so you can imagine my utter surprise and delight when my digital Mits HC8000 effortlessly and instantaneously faded to black when called upon to do so while I was watching Pacific Rim 3D (quite a few fades in this movie). I have read all the reviews I could find about the Mits HC8000 prior to purchasing it and nowhere was its ability to fade to black mentioned. If I had known of its ability to fade to black I probably would have purchased this projector a year ago. It will only do this as long as Iris 3 is engaged and perhaps none of the reviewers were interested in experimenting with the various iris configurations. Anyway, for me at least, this is a huge bonus -- like the icing on a very good cake. The Epson 6010 and 6020 attempt a fade to black; however, you can see the iris making an effort to close down over a few seconds and in the end can never achieve a total fade. The Sharp's iris doesn't attempt a fade to black. Apparently some of the LED projectors will do a fade to black. With the Mits there's no hesitation -- the fade to black happens seamlessly. The Mits has some seriously positive attributes, which are: (1) very good CFI; (2) an exceptional Iris system and (3) stellar 3D. The downside of this projector is its limited brightness and properly placing it to retain the benefits of an HP screen is a bitch. However, where's there's a will there's a way. Now to do some 2D viewing with the Mits.

I saw a stacked CRT and it ruined a lot of things for me. The fade to black was amazing. I didn't know sitting in darkness could be so amazing. I had a jvc with a HP screen and I was just not satisfied. So when I moved a black velevted my room. With my DPI LED projector, I have seen a ton of fade to blacks, just makes the experience of watching a movie, that much better. Then,with the Mit HC8000, I get the same in 3D. I don't recall the scene but in finding Nemo, its the best when they dive down into darkness. My fav fade to black scene.
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post #5505 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I don't recall the scene but in finding Nemo, its the best when they dive down into darkness. My fav fade to black scene.

That's I scene I used as a demo to show-off the G90's fade to black. Also the "coffin" scene in one of the Kill Bill movies was pretty intense.
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post #5506 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 04:20 PM
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I find fade to blacks on my RS55 just fine, as, perceptually, it does go black and usually it's on to the next scene before my eyes have adjusted. Like I've said before, I want deeper blacks within scenes, not when there's no images.

One thing I have to say about the JVC black levels, they certainly can do some amazing things. As I mentioned once, I had watched a bunch of Carpenter's The Fog at one of the brighter settings on my JVC projector for about 1/2 the movie, enjoying the vividness. But then I turned the iris way down for the deepest black levels, which were really deep, and while it did sacrifice overall brightness across daylight scenes, the night scenes just felt way spookier. When someone was carefully treading through a dark house it was just REALLY dark on screen and in the room, more like I was in that spooky house too.

The new JVC's with the dynamic irises should be a boon for experiences like watching spooky movies like The Fog, allowing for bright day scenes while automatically going darker for night scenes.
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post #5507 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I find fade to blacks on my RS55 just fine, as, perceptually, it does go black and usually it's on to the next scene before my eyes have adjusted. Like I've said before, I want deeper blacks within scenes, not when there's no images.

One thing I have to say about the JVC black levels, they certainly can do some amazing things. As I mentioned once, I had watched a bunch of Carpenter's The Fog at one of the brighter settings on my JVC projector for about 1/2 the movie, enjoying the vividness. But then I turned the iris way down for the deepest black levels, which were really deep, and while it did sacrifice overall brightness across daylight scenes, the night scenes just felt way spookier. When someone was carefully treading through a dark house it was just REALLY dark on screen and in the room, more like I was in that spooky house too.

The new JVC's with the dynamic irises should be a boon for experiences like watching spooky movies like The Fog, allowing for bright day scenes while automatically going darker for night scenes.

Theres a difference with fade to black than just getting dark.
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post #5508 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Theres a difference with fade to black than just getting dark.

None of the projectors you listed with the exception of the LED unit you have can do a true fade to black, even the CRT's. The LED models, when in the appropriate DI mode, will literally turn off the LEDs on an all black background. That DI mode is impractical to use. The JVC have a much darker black level over every other projector out there, thus giving you the best fade to blacks...period. The only exception is the 1000ES.

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post #5509 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 04:49 PM
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Theres a difference with fade to black than just getting dark.

Did something I wrote suggest I confused the two? confused.gif

(Like I said, perceptually, during most fade to blacks the room appears to go totally black - it goes dark enough that since my eyes haven't adjusted, I can't see anything momentarily, long enough usually for the next scene to start).
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post #5510 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

None of the projectors you listed with the exception of the LED unit you have can do a true fade to black, even the CRT's. The LED models, when in the appropriate DI mode, will literally turn off the LEDs on an all black background. That DI mode is impractical to use. The JVC have a much darker black level over every other projector out there, thus giving you the best fade to blacks...period. The only exception is the 1000ES.

I seen a CRT a year ago do fade to black. It was 100% fade to black
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post #5511 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I seen a CRT a year ago do fade to black. It was 100% fade to black

That's impossible. What you saw was it just getting really dark. It's like you said, there's a difference between fade to black and getting dark...

Black would refer to the display not putting out ANY light whatsoever. CRTs don't shut off on fully black backgrounds which means they still put out light, hence it not being a true fade to black. But yes, they are very good at black levels.

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post #5512 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 05:11 PM
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Did something I wrote suggest I confused the two? confused.gif

(Like I said, perceptually, during most fade to blacks the room appears to go totally black - it goes dark enough that since my eyes haven't adjusted, I can't see anything momentarily, long enough usually for the next scene to start).

I was just saying it is a difference. When I had the rs55, I saw good contrast but no fade to black, even though it was very dark. I tried numerous times on the rs48 to try to get what I saw with a CRT. The black levels are better on the JVC than my LED projector but the fade to black is very impressive. Hopefully you can get that with the rs57
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post #5513 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 05:12 PM
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That's impossible. What you saw was it just getting really dark. It's like you said, there's a difference between fade to black and getting dark...


Sorry it was, I know you think you know but you don't. I actually know what I saw, I was there
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post #5514 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 05:13 PM
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Sorry it was, I know you think you know but you don't. I actually know what I saw, I was there

Like I said, no it wasn't. You perceived it to be black, which is the same thing R Harkness is talking about. CRTs get very close to a true "black" level, but not quite all the way there. As mentioned before, because the LEDs literally shut off in certain DI modes you can get a TRUE fade to black with them.

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post #5515 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 05:24 PM
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And personally, I couldn't care less about getting a true fade to black. I'm with R Harkness. If my eyes can be tricked into thinking a black screen is black for a small amount of time before it goes to the next scene that's all I really want. Many DLPs can do that. But once the iris opens up on darker scenes you lose the illusion of amazing contrast which is why the JVCs are so nice. The high native contrast does wonders on fade to blacks AND on low APL level scenes. There are only a small handful of DLP projectors that can do both. Many are good at fade to blacks, but most of them fail miserably with low APL level scenes.

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post #5516 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 05:33 PM
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That's impossible. What you saw was it just getting really dark. It's like you said, there's a difference between fade to black and getting dark...

Black would refer to the display not putting out ANY light whatsoever. CRTs don't shut off on fully black backgrounds which means they still put out light, hence it not being a true fade to black. But yes, they are very good at black levels.

There was a major thread about this on the CRT forum several years ago. CRTs will do a complete fade to black, at least as far as human perception is concerned; however, to do this they need assistance, hence gamma correction. Someone on the CRT forum developed a device that gamma corrected a CRT so that it would fade to full black -- I define this to be a black level so low that in a completely darkened room a human cannot perceive any light whatsoever over a substantial period of time. With my G90 a fade to black was complete (as far as human perception was concerned) -- you saw nothing and everyone in attendance would comment on this fact! I used a Lumagen to gamma correct each of my CRTs. The gamma correction device BTW sold well on the forum and most were quite pleased with the results. This forum can be a pretty amazing place. What's kind of funny is that my wife, who really doesn't care much about the quality of the video, but just wants to watch the movie, often comments during fade to black scenes -- "How come your new projector won't fade to black like your submersible used to." biggrin.gif
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post #5517 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 05:38 PM
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Exactly what I said. Perceptually they will do a fade to black, but it's not truly black. Only the LEDs will do it. This is the reason why I don't care about true fade to blacks. There are many projectors out there that will do the same thing. They will give a perceivable "black" and that's all anyone should be looking for.

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post #5518 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

There was a major thread about this on the CRT forum several years ago. CRTs will do a complete fade to black, at least as far as human perception is concerned; however, to do this they need assistance, hence gamma correction. Someone on the CRT forum developed a device that gamma corrected a CRT so that it would fade to full black -- I define this to be a black level so low that in a completely darkened room a human cannot perceive any light whatsoever over a substantial period of time. With my G90 a fade to black was complete (as far as human perception was concerned) -- you saw nothing and everyone in attendance would comment on this fact! I used a Lumagen to gamma correct each of my CRTs. The gamma correction device BTW sold well on the forum and most were quite pleased with the results. This forum can be a pretty amazing place. What's kind of funny is that my wife, who really doesn't care much about the quality of the video, but just wants to watch the movie, often comments during fade to black scenes -- "How come your new projector won't fade to black like your submersible used to." biggrin.gif

So, it was pitch black right? Not just dark. Having 3 JVC projectors, I know how good dark scenes look. More like fade to darkness. I want to hear from R. Harkness to see if the RS57 with the DI show a darker fade than his RS55.
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post #5519 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

So, it was pitch black right? Not just dark. Having 3 JVC projectors, I know how good dark scenes look. More like fade to darkness. I want to hear from R. Harkness to see if the RS57 with the DI show a darker fade than his RS55.

You don't seem to be getting it. "GAMMA CORRECTED CRT PROJECTORS WILL NOT EMIT ANY LIGHT AT 0 IRE!!!!!!!!!!" Is that better for you to understand? 0 IRE can be set to as low as -4 IRE with a Lumagen, so there is NO EMISSION OF LIGHT from the CRTs!!!
I don't know how that can be made clearer! You can pause a 0 IRE test pattern, leave it on for however long you want and the room will be pitch black, to the point that you will stumble on something if you try to walk around. If you hold your hand in front of you you cannot see it. It is just like being blind the only light in the room will be from other light sources, such as LEDs on your equipment. If these are covered the room will be completely dark.

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post #5520 of 9760 Old 12-17-2013, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by napos View Post

You don't seem to be getting it. "GAMMA CORRECTED CRT PROJECTORS WILL NOT EMIT ANY LIGHT AT 0 IRE!!!!!!!!!!" Is that better for you to understand? 0 IRE can be set to as low as -4 IRE with a Lumagen, so there is NO EMISSION OF LIGHT from the CRTs!!!
I don't know how that can be made clearer! You can pause a 0 IRE test pattern, leave it on for however long you want and the room will be pitch black, to the point that you will stumble on something if you try to walk around. If you hold your hand in front of you you cannot see it. It is just like being blind the only light in the room will be from other light sources, such as LEDs on your equipment. If these are covered the room will be completely dark.

Are you saying CRTs can fade to black? I'm confused
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