Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 187 - AVS Forum
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post #5581 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

While I see your point, yes that's one kludgy solution if one has no problem taking ND filters on and off the projector every time you switch from 2D and 3D and back. I think the roll call of people with an HP screen actually doing that is going to be pretty skimpy.

Of course what also can't be fixed is the viewing cone of the HP, which I found changed obviously between any 2 viewing seats. But, yeah, if you can deal with the issues of the HP screen, it sure has it's benefits.

With your JVC, Rich, all you need to do is close down the fixed iris if the pic is too bright for you. Remember, the HP doesn't change the CR, just increases the brightness (white level and black level, in same ratio). You are right, though, that you can't fix the viewing cone if it's too narrow for your setup.

Glad to hear from all you HP fans--I'm one of you! (DarinP is another highly knowledgeable HT person who also likes it.) We all know that Mark Haflich--a very dear friend--doesn't care for it, and Mark is so articulate that one feels it is much less popular than it actually is. I still feel that if your room allows it to be set itup optimally, and the viewing cone is not an issue, that it can't be beat; equivalent to getting to projector with over twice the lumens, with no change in its CR.
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post #5582 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

With your JVC, Rich, all you need to do is close down the fixed iris if the pic is too bright for you. Remember, the HP doesn't change the CR, just increases the brightness (white level and black level, in same ratio).

Yes, the JVC's adjustable iris is such a fantastic feature, and with an HP screen since you can dial down the iris more a JVC owner is more likely to realize the full contrast ratio abilities of the projector. I'd think seeing a JVC's iris dialed down to -15
while still getting a really bright image must be amazing.
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post #5583 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

...If only I could have lived with the viewing cone (and higher black levels...)

It makes as much sense to criticize the HP for black levels as it does to criticize the the Sony 500/600 for brightness.

Less actually, since the HP doesn't decrease CR and in fact can increase it by allowing a more closed iris setting, whereas you can be sure some CR was sacrificed in the Sony to get its brightness (as is the case for any pj).

Noah
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post #5584 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

It makes as much sense to criticize the HP for black levels as it does to criticize the the Sony 500/600 for brightness.

Noah, of course I wasn't attributing "black levels" as some sort of inherent quality of the HP screen.

Surely we've both been around here long enough that you couldn't misconstrue me as speaking to anything other than my own combination of projector/room/screen/set up - hence "if only I could have" lived with the black levels...
My Panasonic projector of the time didn't have an adjustable iris.

I've seen the JVC RS20 on an HP screen and it looked great. Though, of course, the gain in brightness came with higher black levels than the same image on a neutral gain screen on which it was compared. To the degree you use the HP to raise the brightness of your projected image significantly, you raise the black levels vs a lower gain screen...all caveats that we always toss around presumed. (Of course we could close the aperture on the JVC while projecting on the screen to increase contrast..but that also lowered brightness obviously).
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Less actually, since the HP doesn't decrease CR and in fact can increase it by allowing a more closed iris setting,

Wondering if you noticed my post directly above this, saying the same thing?
There's potential to get more contrast out of a projector like the JVC with an HP screen, all relevant criteria being equal. If you have the room to place the projector in the right spot to do it, and if you don't find issue with the viewing cone...
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

whereas you can be sure some CR was sacrificed in the Sony to get its brightness (as is the case for any pj).

I'd love to see a new JVC and Sony equalized in brightness (preferably, for me, using a screen for the JVC that put it into Sony brightness territory for the same image size). That could be very illuminating. The only reviewer I remember doing so was Andrew Robinson's review of the Sony VW1000. Once brightness matched to a JVC, he stated the images looked almost identical.
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post #5585 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 04:58 PM
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Zombie, I'm surprised you have no issue with the SDE of the Epsons. I just received mine today, and on a 106" wide 2.35 screen (equivalent to 123" 16:9) from 7-8 feet away, the SDE is extremely noticeable, to the extent that I'm going to be sending the projector back.
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post #5586 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Zombie, I'm surprised you have no issue with the SDE of the Epsons. I just received mine today, and on a 106" wide 2.35 screen (equivalent to 123" 16:9) from 7-8 feet away, the SDE is extremely noticeable, to the extent that I'm going to be sending the projector back.

I had the same problem with the epson tw9000 thats why i went for the sony hw55es...

No more screen door(SDE)... but the epson has less ghosting in 3d..

Best regards
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post #5587 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Zombie, I'm surprised you have no issue with the SDE of the Epsons. I just received mine today, and on a 106" wide 2.35 screen (equivalent to 123" 16:9) from 7-8 feet away, the SDE is extremely noticeable, to the extent that I'm going to be sending the projector back.

You're sitting the length of a NBA player away. I have some Epson projectors and sit twice that distance with a 120" screen and SDE is not visible -- you're sitting closer to the screen than most people sit watching their 55" T.V.s. I bet you can hardly wait to buy a 4K projector so you can sit 7" to 8" from the screen. biggrin.gif
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post #5588 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ +1, that is really close and wouldn't have recommended the Epson knowing you are sitting that close. A good DLP will be the same issue, the best bet would be the HW55 or one of the JVC projectors with e-shift.
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post #5589 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 05:33 PM
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+1, that is really close and wouldn't have recommended the Epson knowing you are sitting that close. A good DLP will be the same issue, the best bet would be the HW55 or one of the JVC projectors with e-shift.

I can sit 12 feet from my 118" wide 2.35:1 screen - and that's about as close as I'd want to go, without 4K.

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post #5590 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

^^^^ +1, that is really close and wouldn't have recommended the Epson knowing you are sitting that close. A good DLP will be the same issue, the best bet would be the HW55 or one of the JVC projectors with e-shift.

Am definitely considering JVC more closely now. That said, I have no issues with screendoor with the Mits HC4000 from the same distance at the same image size. Same goes for the setup in our previous house with a 126" wide screen from about 9' away (also with the Mits). As soon as I turned on the Epson, my heart sank.

Not actually sure what the exact viewing distance is. The edge of the couch is at 85".
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post #5591 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 06:00 PM
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JVC with eshift is by far your best option. Am that's not me just tring to sell you mine. It's just the truth.

Or a 4K... smile.gif
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post #5592 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 06:12 PM
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I sit about 10" from a 110" screen and wouldn't want it any bigger at that distance. The fairly big lenses of the Epson glasses barely cover the width of my field of view when watching 3D. I can see SDE a bit on some static objects (such as menus) with the 5030, but it never bothers me for regular program material.

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post #5593 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

JVC with eshift is by far your best option. Am that's not me just tring to sell you mine. It's just the truth.

Or a 4K... smile.gif

Yeah, definitely am either going to stick with the Mits for now or buy a JVC. Now to decide between yours and Tim's....
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post #5594 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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the calibration + full QC check alone from SOWK would be worth the price of admission.
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post #5595 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the calibration + full QC check alone from SOWK would be worth the price of admission.

Thanks for kind words.

I told you I would keep it a year... smile.gif

I know it seemed unrealistic for me to actually keep a projector for more then 2 months... Lol, but just like your rs55 it's a good sample and I am happy with it.

Not much to dislike actually.
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post #5596 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Some initial thoughts on Sony VW600 3D -

  • it looks like they are cranking some settings from the factory in the attempt to get more perceived light in 3D mode. Gamma = 8 (a torch mode gamma setting), contrast enhancer set to 'HIGH', glasses set to high brightness which can introduce x-talk in some of the tougher scenes.

  • I set the gamma back to 2.2, color gamut from 'color mode' 3 (colors looked a little overcooked) to R709. Also turned off 'Contrast Enhancer' as well.

  • Also i turned RC from 50 down to 20, I thought it looked too hot with the default setting. Sharpness was also cranked, turned it down to about 10 or so.

  • Light output in high brightness measures around 700 lumens with a 100 IRE pattern in 3D mode. This is quite a bit less than it can produce in 2D mode so you have to choose your screen size / gain accordingly if 3D is important.

  • 3D X-talk performance is very good in standard brightness mode but this reduces light output as well by about 100 lumens. I have no problem with this centered on my 142" 2.8HP screen, the gain works wonders here and 3D looks very good from where I am sitting.

  • The only downfall I can see with these specific RF glasses is that when you tilt them on different angles, it can affect the x-talk. This is mainly seen with the L/R patterns, it's more difficult to pick up on this with regular 3D content.

  • Contrast and color look very good in 3D but I can see the greyscale will need some adjusting with the meter behind the glasses.

VW600.jpg

VW600-1.jpg

High / Standard brightness doesn't seem to affect the L/R patterns much, but it definitely helps in MvA.

VW600-2.jpg

VW600-3.jpg

high 3D brightness, some mild x-talk on the bridge lines


VW600-5.jpg

VW600-4.jpg

This cleans up nice on the standard 3D brightness setting, X-talk performance is very good here for a non-DLP.


VW600-6.jpg

infamous Grand Canyon scene

VW600-7.jpg

high 3D brightness - moderately visible

VW600-10.jpg

VW600-9.jpg

Standard 3D brightness, difficult to detect when the movie is playing

VW600-8.jpg

X-talk is visible with subtitles, there's no real way to get around it. It will be more obvious on scope bars. Try to live with it, you will be ok.. smile.gif

VW600-12.jpg

VW600-11.jpg

This is a good scene (Step Up 3D) for checking contrast performance in 3D, a floating window with scrolling credits. You can easily see the black areas of the surrounding area. Contrast performance appears similar to the HW50 and maybe a hair behind the 5030 which is quite good in 3D. It's possible JVC will have an advantage here, but I wouldn't trade the flicker of the JVC which is more stable (but not perfect) on the Sony.


VW600-13.jpg

This is a scene that will make the JVC RS40/45/55 cry. The VW600 handles this very well.

VW600-14.jpg


so no-one gets the wrong idea, I am nit-picking the heck out of the 3D as we do with all of the 3D projectors. This is a very nice 3D projector that can handle 3D well. The only potential concern is the 3D lumen output, but this is really the same concern for most 3D projectors.

I also like these 3D glasses, the lenses are large enough to cover my prescription glasses and I am not really focusing on the fact that there are no sides to block the light. Excellent sync obviously, so these are definitely recommended.
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post #5597 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 09:47 PM
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I reduced the 5030 screen size to 16:9 mode, or around 46" x 81". Screendoor was reduced but I still felt like I could see it. The image just looks much more pixely to me than the HC4000's.

It's actually weird having an image this bright, I'll give it that (my Mits has 1900 hours on it). And am I remembering correctly, or are the JVCs a bit brighter in 2D (calibrated, low lamp)?

{quote]the calibration + full QC check alone from SOWK would be worth the price of admission.[/quote]

It's a tough call. SOWK's has 300 hours vs 20 hours for Tim's, so Tim's is basically brand new. Tim also offered a better price.
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post #5598 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 11:10 PM
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Buy the one your more comfortable with.

I'm in no rush, and I'm not pushing very hard either. I haven't even taken dedicated photos to sell it yet. wink.gif

Once I am ready ready I will have no problem selling as I will take screen shots of focus, and convergence, of which both are great. And pics of how nice and shinny everything is. smile.gif
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post #5599 of 8765 Old 12-20-2013, 11:47 PM
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Wow those screen shots are impressive Zombie. Must have a nice camera. Any tips on camera setup?

James Reid:D
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post #5600 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Screendoor was reduced but I still felt like I could see it.

Saying you "feel" like you could see something makes it sound like you couldn't see it, but you want to convince yourself that you could.
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post #5601 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by nickoakdl View Post

Saying you "feel" like you could see something makes it sound like you couldn't see it, but you want to convince yourself that you could.

This is not uncommon, I know if I turn off eshift on my JVC it just doesn't look as solid as with eshift on. But you can't say you specifically see screen door.
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post #5602 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 05:14 AM
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Zombie, you should definitely try the Sony with other glasses. Many are claiming that other brands (including those from JVC) significantly reduce ghosting on the VW500.
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post #5603 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I have owned about 6 or 7 screens of differing gains from different manufacturers, and I have even dabbled in custom made paints and surface preparations. The High Power 2.8 is undoubtedly the finest screen I have ever used and the ONLY screen I will use in my theater with any projector I own or buy.

Wizziwig, I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is, simply put...wrong. If you wish to believe it, then that is your choice, but please refrain from posting undeniably incorrect assertions. It will only serve to spread misinformation and confusion for no good reason. Please, buy another screen and then simply praise the one you bought for its virtues.

Since I own the screen, I'm fully aware of it's pros and cons. Unlike many on this forum, I'm not going to go around proclaiming it is the ultimate screen. It serves specific budget and setup requirements, especially if you're into 3D.

As I stated in my post, I will verify if the color shift is still there when I test with a different projector. I doubt it will do anything to reduce the visible grain in bright scenes.

Has anyone here switched from the 2.8 to the 2.4 HP material? I have small samples but it's unclear if the grain is any better on a full camera panning scene.
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post #5604 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Zombie, you should definitely try the Sony with other glasses. Many are claiming that other brands (including those from JVC) significantly reduce ghosting on the VW500.

I can try, but I always test with the factory glasses since this is what most owners are going to start out with. Historically, I find those claims generally unfounded when a pair of 3D glasses supposedly performs better than another pair with the same projector. Most do not put the 3D under a microscope like I do with these tests, so perhaps there is a placebo effect here.

having said that, I watched 4 straight hours with dozen's of clips my favorite 3D movies and overall I am very pleased with the 3D performance of this projector for a non-DLP. I haven't seen one yet that can handle every tough 3D movie perfectly, this is strictly reserved for the DLP's but overall the VW600 does a great job with most 3D content.

it's also much sharper in 3D without the shenanigans of RC that I see on the HW50. It was actually one of my least favorite 3D PQ last year due to the heavy handed RC. You could see the background noise exaggerated in stereo which I found distracting. This is definitely not the case with the VW600, the 3D looks very clean and natural.

I also went back and looked at 2D for about 2 hours, spot checking my favorite 2D clips (boy I do love my Mede8ter + tons of network storage) - The re-vamp on RC is getting high accolades in my book so far. David McKenzie @ HDTV and I are seeing the same exact thing. There is no doubt from what I have seen so far that RC on the 600 is better in every way vs. the 1000.

This is quickly becoming one of my favorite projectors this year and would be thrilled to have this projector if I didn't already have the 1000... and I haven't even gotten to the 4K content yet... smile.gif
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post #5605 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Here's what Tom Norton had to say about the 3D brightness of the Sony VW1000ES and how he rectified the situation:

"The Screen Difference
One option here would be to reduce the size of the image when watching 3D, an approach made easy by using the projector’s lens-memory feature. But reducing the image to 80 inches wide only increased the measured output to 3.5 ft-L, and I doubt if many viewers would be willing to go smaller than that, or even that small, on so expensive a projector.

The obvious solution is a higher-gain screen. And by a fortunate coincidence, we had a couple of these on hand that were being tested for their compatibility with 3D projection (see “Screen Play,” page 40). I tried the Sony on the higher gain of the two: a Da-Lite High Power with a specified gain of 2.4—almost twice that of the StudioTek. The smaller size of the Da-Lite (92 inches wide versus the 118-inch-wide StudioTek) offered a further advantage.

While we didn’t magically see a brilliant 15-16 ft-L from the VPL-VW1000 in 3D, things nevertheless began to cook. The peak brightness measurement increased to 6 ft-L, easily brighter than you’ll see on any theatrical 3D screen short of a twin-projector IMAX or equivalent presentation. I also determined that if our Da-Lite High Power with its 2.4 gain was equivalent in size to a 118-inch screen, the brightness would be about 4.5 ft-L on the larger screen. I obtained this reading by positioning the Da-Lite screen immediately in front of the StudioTek, with the projector still set up to fill the latter and none of its settings changed. I then measured the center-screen brightness from the Da-Lite. In other words, the reading was the same as it would have been if the Da-Lite were a full 118 inches wide."


With the 118 inch Studio Tek he obtained about 2 ft-L. -- he wasn't very happy! With the HP (2.4) gain he rated the Sony's 3D and gave it a 4/5. With the Studio Tek he rated the 3D at 2 1/2 out of 5.

Here's the review:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-vpl-vw1000es-4k-sxrd-3d-projector-take-2



Deja Vu


I dont believe, that you can measurre 3D brightness as allmost everybody dos ( trought one off the glasses ) and Im sure our eyes see it different too - not even to mention, that everybody measurre one glass and we all look trought two glasses at "same" time, so we probely should multipli our number with 2 !?

In that review you mention with Tom Norton, he measurre the 95EsS to have more light output then the 1000ES !! say what rolleyes.gif - everybody WHO has seen both ( including me, WHO has owned and compared both BTW. - I even wrote about it in the 1000ES thread and posted some pictures ) will know, that the 95ES is not as bright as the 1000ES - so my conclusion is clear : something is wrong with the way we/ he measurre it.

I actully tried to measurre the 1000ES trought the Monster glasses on my high gain screen and I never could get numbers over 3 fl. and here we talk about when I measuured it with 2D I had a Maximum output arround 89 fl !!!! ( that would mean the glasses should "eat " about 96-97 % off the light output wink.gif ) .

When I tried to compare the same scene visual - first in 3D with glasses on and then same scene in 2D where I tried to lower the output to match my impression of the 3D brightness I ended with typical about 10 -16 fl )


dj
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post #5606 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

so here's some interesting info on this topic.. when looking at specific scenes in Oblivion on the 55, 1000 and 8130 on the HP, there are times where the 1000 and 8130 can 'pop' (image depth) more than the 55. This can make the elevated black level less noticeable (I don't currently mask the black bars on my 16:9) on mixed and low APL scenes.

perhaps this has to do with higher ansi on the 1000 and Planar, I can't exactly put my finger on it even during the direct A/B comparison.

With all the talk of the new iris, I am more curious to hear about possible ANSI improvements. We'll have to wait for Cine4home's info on this one.



Ekki measurred the 500Es to about 420:1


dj
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post #5607 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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DJ - what meter are you using? I have a Minolta T10 but haven't started using it yet, I might give it a shot for measuring native contrast on the new projectors. I thought about trying this through the glasses since it's very sensitive.

Measuring 3D brightness seems very difficult since the glasses work differently on each projector, this is why I provide the 3D lumen output before the glasses, but even that information isn't that useful because the glasses, based on what the projector is telling them to do, can have serious effects on the light output.

A good example is the Mitsubishi HC5. it had a reasonably bright 3D image on my HP screen but once the glasses turned on, it was VERY dark to the point where I would never use this projector for 3D. These are universal glasses (MV3D and Xpand 104) and they appear much brighter on my Sharp 30K since the shutter timing must not be as aggressive as it was on the HC5.

HC5 - off
HC5-8.jpg

HC5 - on -Someone turned out the lights !! cool.gif This was not a polarizing effect, they are just as dark rotated 90 and 180 degrees.

HC5-9.jpg


btw, I was referring to ANSI on the new JVC's not the VW600. I was curious if we will see any gains on the new JVC models since the ANSI changed from e-shift 1 -> 2, will it change again with e-shift 3?
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post #5608 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Some initial thoughts on Sony VW600 3D -



I also like these 3D glasses, the lenses are large enough to cover my prescription glasses and I am not really focusing on the fact that there are no sides to block the light. Excellent sync obviously, so these are definitely recommended.





Z

How would you compare the BT500A versus the monster´s ?

TIA

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post #5609 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't compare the MV3D's to the BT500A's since they don't work with the 600's RF signal, but comfort wise, they are much better than I was expecting. They are feather weight but surprisingly well built.

I am going to keep this pair in the hopes that it might work with the 1100 mobo swap, but somehow I don't think this will be the case. i thought we saw the BT500A's advertised in the UK with the 1100 brochure, but it might be a marketing mistake. We'll find out eventually, no specific word yet on the motherboard upgrades here in the US but it should be soon.
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post #5610 of 8765 Old 12-21-2013, 07:58 AM
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Has anyone here switched from the 2.8 to the 2.4 HP material? I have small samples but it's unclear if the grain is any better on a full camera panning scene.

I have. I liked the 2.8 screen just fine but wanted to go to a larger one (from 110x62 to 144x72). I THNIK the 2.4 was somewhat smoother, and I KNOW that it had a somewhat larger viewing cone. But really, I have liked them both and am not discerning enough to see major differences.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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