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post #541 of 9889 Old 11-03-2012, 10:30 PM
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zombie10k,
Do you know when you will get the Mit HC8000 for review.

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post #542 of 9889 Old 11-03-2012, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Convergence is the alignment of the Red / Green / Blue panels within a 3 panel projector (Sony, Epson, JVC, etc). As an example - when the convergence is good, the computer text in this image should appear white.
This is my old Mitsubishi HC5500 which had some convergence issues. This projector was not adjustable, so there's not much that can be done about it. The 5020 allows 'zone' based convergence correction which allows the end user to make adjustments across the entire screen in the attempt to correct any misalignment from the factory. Ideally, all the projectors would be have very close convergence from the factory, but we've seen side variances from copy to copy.

The Epson 8350 replacement I had briefly looked like that. The first 8350 had that + some lens issue that caused flare around all high contrast text, even when perfect focus was achieved.

My Sony 50ES only has a half pixel of red misconvergence (falls half a pixel to the right of green & blue). -2 or -4 convergence adjustment fixes it, but I don't know if it's worth it due to the drop in resolution (red) for sub-pixel adjustments.
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post #543 of 9889 Old 11-03-2012, 10:53 PM
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Has no one seen the hc8000 review on pc from a month ago???
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post #544 of 9889 Old 11-03-2012, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post

Has no one seen the hc8000 review on pc from a month ago???

I know, right? Not too favorable either...

http://www.projectorreviews.com/mitsubishi/hc7800d/index.php
http://www.projectorcentral.com/mitsubishi_hc8000d_full_hd_3d_projector_review.htm
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post #545 of 9889 Old 11-03-2012, 11:44 PM
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It is about as favorable as one can expect from PJC on any projector that does not wear the name "Panasonic", and it's referred to by Mits themselves as a favorable review in their official copy, but the problem is that REVIEW has no substance and double talks the way through the entire thing. Other than the Lumens part of that review, most people could have written that review without ever having even seen the projector, that's how vague and generic it was.

It never gives a true placement or assessment on any critical comparison to other PJ's (only stating some are better at blacks, well yah no kidding a DLP is not going to beat an LCOS in general, what kind of stupidly absurd statement is that), or how well the DI works or how smoothly (sure let's skip this entirely). PJC claims it has limited features according to some other PJ's, well again this is a DLP and that is the norm (gotta pay even more for auto-focus/zoom, but it does have CIH with repositioning). The Sony hw50es doesn't even have motorized controls and it's cheaper for a MFR to motorize an LCOS projector because there is more room to do so. Actually other than the missing motorized focus and zoom on a DLP, this is the most tricked out DLP ever released under $5000, so that review was just terrible.

How can this have limited features, it's under $3000 and it has multiple IRIS's and supports CIH and has the best 2D/3D conversion. There is no other DLP that has ever had that in this price range, limited features baloney. The review complains about lacking sharpness enhancements, well that may be true but that does not tell us how naturally sharp the PJ is or is not. The review doesn't even go into Gaming Lag, 3D comparable quality, overall 2D image, natural sharpness, or anything. Pretty much any of the issues I need to know about are not properly covered in this REVIEW at all. These pro reviewers are just terrible, they do not know how to review a projector and never find the real problems, period. Most of them gave the Mits hc7800 glowing reviews, and the thing was loaded with nothing but problems.


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post #546 of 9889 Old 11-03-2012, 11:49 PM
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I read the review as well and considering the performance was 5/5 and it was PC Highly Rated the reviewer didn't seem very excited about it. And yeah, very little comment on black levels and 3D. From my recollection there wasn't even high excitement listed in the Panasonic review this year (or at least as much as in years past). This projector won't work in my setup anyways.
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post #547 of 9889 Old 11-03-2012, 11:55 PM
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Well I read Evan's reviews with a grain of microscopic salt, they are some of the most generic reviews in general. I don't normally criticize reviewers, but as time goes on his reviews just keep coming up with less and less substance.

What we know from the review:
It has a good amount of 3D lumens (comparable to many PJ's, more than most from last year)
It is not that bright in it's absolute best mode, but people have to remember that is with the the aperture closed
It has the best 2D/3D conversion utility (supposedly)
It has good blacks when the aperture is closed (good compared to what, we know nothing here from this review really)
The sharpness is good but lacks a good enhancement control (I am assuming it uses the standard Mits sharpening algorithm, not a concern to me since I can add sharpening from a number of devices)

This is probably not a great match for 120"+ Screens (even HP screens) for 3D, but smaller than that and I think it can work based on the data. Of course if you have a uniform gain screen at 1.5+, then that would give you quite a bit of lumens.


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post #548 of 9889 Old 11-03-2012, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I read the review as well and considering the performance was 5/5 and it was PC Highly Rated the reviewer didn't seem very excited about it.

It's funny you mention that is that was exactly what I thought after reading it. There just didn't seem to by any excitement about it at all. For giving it a 5 star rating, it was reviewed as some run of the mill sub 1k unit.

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post #549 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 12:00 AM
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Which is why we wait on Zombie's reviews and do not go with that site. Evan is the one that said the RS-45's blacks are so dark you cannot even tell the projector is on (the JVC has good blacks, but we are not even close to that point yet). His Panny 7000 review was the most hilariously bias'd review ever, I've never read such a BIAS'd review I don't think. It even said the lack of lumens in best mode for the Panny was a potential advantage over other PJ's (the whole thing was ridiculous).


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post #550 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Which is why we wait on Zombie's reviews and do not go with that site. Evan is the one that said the RS-45's blacks are so dark you cannot even tell the projector is on (the JVC has good blacks, but we are not even close to that point yet). His Panny 7000 review was the most hilariously bias'd review ever, I've never read such a BIAS'd review I don't think. It even said the lack of lumens in best mode for the Panny was a potential advantage over other PJ's (the whole thing was ridiculous).

Yup. I chuckled when I read this one.
Quote:
Many competing home theater projectors have goosed their Cinema modes up to 800 lumens or more, which is far too bright for classic home theater.

Apparently all of us are running HP screens with a 10' throw.

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post #551 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 12:16 AM
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Another note of interest on the Mits hc8000 is the TINY loss in lumens from the throw distance. It only lost 9% of its lumens at max throw.


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post #552 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 01:13 AM
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Epson 5020 LAG test in THX mode / Eco / High Speed Iris / Fast processing... 62ms



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post #553 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 01:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I spent about 6 hours tonight going back and forth between the HW50 and 5020 in 2D and 3D.

A few notes to keep in mind:

  • neither projector is calibrated in 3D yet behind the glasses, these are out of the box settings. The HW50 is set to Cinema mode and the 5020 is on Cinema1.

  • Even though the 5020 is sitting 12+ inches above the HW50, it appears a 'notch' brighter than the HW50. This makes sense since the HW50 measured ~1064 lumens in this mode and the 5020 is ~1400 x the 2.8HP, so there is a bit of difference here.

  • On the 5020 in 3D mode, super-resolution is not available. I used the Darbee set @ 40% on the Epson 5020 photos to see if we can match the Reality Creation processing.

  • For DV- I don't see a big deal about the 5020 iris in 3D mode, I haven't seen any scenes where it makes a noticeable difference. By all accounts of quick A/B swaps between both projectors, these are very similar in appearance during low light scenes, despite the 5020 being a bit brighter.

  • all 3D photos are through the left eye.


HW50vsEpson5020.jpg

Sony HW50 - RC = OFF

HW50vsEpson5020-1.jpg

Sony HW50 - RC = ON, Resolution = 40%, MPEG = low - RC does a nice job here bringing out details in the 3D animations

HW50vsEpson5020-2.jpg

Epson 5020 - Darbee = 40%

HW50vsEpson5020-3.jpg

HW50 - Abraham Lincoln Vampire Slayer - great movie!!

HW50vsEpson5020-4.jpg

Epson 5020 - Darbee @ 40%

HW50vsEpson5020-5.jpg

Sony HW50 - RC = ON, Resolution = 40%, MPEG=low

HW50vsEpson5020-6.jpg

Epson 5020 - Darbee = 40%

HW50vsEpson5020-7.jpg

Sony HW50 - RC = ON, Resolution = 40%, MPEG=low - this vampire is a hair out of focus, but a great scene with good detail under the eyes.

HW50vsEpson5020-8.jpg

Epson 5020 - Darbee = 40% - this combo looks good in this scene.

HW50vsEpson5020-9.jpg


Sony HW50 - RC = ON, Resolution = minimum, MPEG=low - Buddy Guy!

HW50vsEpson5020-10.jpg

Epson 5020 - Super Resolution = 3

HW50vsEpson5020-11.jpg

Epson 5020 - Super Resolution = 3, Darbee = 30%

HW50vsEpson5020-12.jpg

Sony HW50 - RC = OFF

HW50vsEpson5020-13.jpg

Sony HW50 - RC = ON, Resolution =40%, MPEG = LOW

HW50vsEpson5020-14.jpg

Epson 5020 - Darbee = 40%

HW50vsEpson5020-15.jpg

Sony HW50 - RC = ON, Resolution =40%, MPEG = LOW

HW50vsEpson5020-16.jpg

Epson 5020 - Darbee = 40%

HW50vsEpson5020-17.jpg

Sony HW50 - RC = ON, Resolution =40%, MPEG = LOW

HW50vsEpson5020-18.jpg

Epson 5020 - Darbee = 40%

HW50vsEpson5020-19.jpg

I know some folks are on the edge of their seat for this compare, you'll have to wait a few days. cool.gif

HW50vsRS55-3.jpg
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post #554 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 01:44 AM
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So for now your judgement is that the Sony hw50's blacks are close enough to the Epson, but the Epson still has slightly darker blacks?


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post #555 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 02:12 AM - Thread Starter
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it's too close so I can't say which one is better. they are pretty much the same and wouldn't use contrast as a deciding factor between these 2 models.
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post #556 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Epson 5020 LAG test in THX mode / Eco / High Speed Iris / Fast processing... 62ms

Jason

Thanks for the update Jason. And as you can see it is greater then 50ms... wink.gif

Also you should take at least 10 pics and the largest number is the one you want to use for the stated "input lag" result.

I'm sure projector central is using a LCD monitor to measure "lag"

Which is the wrong way of doing it.
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post #557 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Thanks for the update Jason. And as you can see it is greater then 50ms... wink.gif
Also you should take at least 10 pics and the largest number is the one you want to use for the stated "input lag" result.
I'm sure projector central is using a LCD monitor to measure "lag"
Which is the wrong way of doing it.

I never stated it was 50ms or better. confused.gif All I stated was that it was obviously reduced from the 5010 and it does indeed test 20-30ms lower depending upon who's test you use (which I believe ranged from 80 to 92ms).

I actually took around 100 pics as we were checking various modes with variable settings within those modes.

We hit 62ms consistantly when using the mode/settings that I mentioned above, every once in a while we would get an oddball read but I have experienced that on every display that I have tested.

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post #558 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 03:02 AM
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Patiently waiting in the r46 frown.gif

But good job zombie. After sandy lots of people have tons if problems and being without power and getting right into it is greatly appreciated
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post #559 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 03:06 AM
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Can already say anything or tease us with some first impressions of the JVC Zombie? Dying to know what it s like in 2D and especially in 3D! Maybe it is possible that JVC will release a final firmware where the FI in 3D might work after all? If you sum up a good brightness and good ghosting that the JVC might have it would only leave the flicker for the JVC.
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post #560 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

I never stated it was 50ms or better. confused.gif All I stated was that it was obviously reduced from the 5010 and it does indeed test 20-30ms lower depending upon who's test you use (which I believe ranged from 80 to 92ms).
I actually took around 100 pics as we were checking various modes with variable settings within those modes.
We hit 62ms consistantly when using the mode/settings that I mentioned above, every once in a while we would get an oddball read but I have experienced that on every display that I have tested.
Jason

The statement was not about you, but for thoese that want to beleive Projector Centrals 50ms nonsense. smile.gif You helped get the correct info out, and everyone that was interested in lag results should thank you for doing it.
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post #561 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

LAG...

I pulled out the CRT and we get 62ms consistantly as long as using Eco, High Iris, FAST processing in THX, Cinema and Natural modes. When we changed to Normal lamp, Iris OFF, for some reason, the lag went to about 78ms on average.

Living Room mode came in around 80 ms.

Enabling other features like FI landed us at about 140ms.

I snapped about 100 pics and will sort through and post some later but figured the info would be helpful.
Jason, thank you very much for this! Really appreciate your efforts here. I'm still pretty disappointed by this.

Panasonic AE8000, or Epson 5020. Aargh! I need decent input lag for gaming but 5020 seems better than the Panny in all other areas? Please help me decide.
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post #562 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 03:42 AM
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Ok, everyone send me their projectors for 2D comparisons and Zombie will do the 3D comparisons... smile.gif

J/king...





Or am I. biggrin.gif
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post #563 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squuiid View Post

Jason, thank you very much for this! Really appreciate your efforts here.I'm still pretty disappointed by this.
Panasonic AE8000, or Epson 5020. Aargh! Need decent input lag but 5020 seems better than the Panny in all other areas? Please help me decide.

Let's see, if you go with the Panny --- potential lamp flickering issues, more 3d ghosting, more dust blobs, worse black levels, shorter warranty (more obnoxious to deal with as well), probably less sharpness, less bright best mode, more expensive I am guessing... All that just to shave off 30ms or so of lag, get a 2nd projector for competitive gaming if +30ms lag matters that much.

@SOWK
I'm pretty sure for 2d Movies (by average movie content) it is going to play out like this:
JVC > Sony > Epson > Benq

Of course it will depend on the movie as always, if you watch something with no dark scenes and shot overly bright and noisy, the Benq would probably jump to first place as well with Sports and general TV.
I don't think that much has changed in the 2D department.


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post #564 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Let's see, if you go with the Panny --- potential lamp flickering issues, more 3d ghosting, more dust blobs, worse black levels, shorter warranty (more obnoxious to deal with as well), probably less sharpness, less bright best mode, more expensive I am guessing... All that just to shave off 30ms or so of lag, get a 2nd projector for competitive gaming if +30ms lag matters that much.
@SOWK
I'm pretty sure for 2d Movies (by average movie content) it is going to play out like this:
JVC > Sony > Epson > Benq
Of course it will depend on the movie as always, if you watch something with no dark scenes and shot overly bright and noisy, the Benq would probably jump to first place as well with Sports and general TV.
I don't think that much has changed in the 2D department.

Ha! OK, looks like I'll deal with the lag! Thanks coderguy. One final Q regarding the settings used by Jason to achieve the 60 or so ms of lag on the Epson 5020. Is it possible to save these settings as a 'Custom' mode so that I can easily select this mode if I want to game? Or do I need to change all these settings each time I want to switch from movie viewing to gaming and then back again?
Thanks.
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post #565 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 05:09 AM
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projectorcentral.com:
Quote:
3D Limitations. Unfortunately, some things don't change. The 5020UBe's 3D modes still force the projector into high lamp mode with its own preset color calibrations. Frame Interpolation does not work while watching 3D content. These limitations were also present on the 5010. On the upside, iris control has now been returned to the user.

Without FI - is the picture smooth in 3D?
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post #566 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Epson 5020 LAG test in THX mode / Eco / High Speed Iris / Fast processing... 62ms

Jason

Thanks for doing this DGP! smile.gif

Still dont understand PC getting 50ms though considering some of their lag tests have lined up with what Zombie hit with some of these projectors last year. Could using an LCD monitor get the lag right sometimes and not others if that is what they are using as SOWK has suggested?

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #567 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 06:26 AM
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Zombie thanks so much for the screenshots!
This kind of confirms my observations that the Sony is a bit too soft, and really does require RC to bring it back to a level of sharpness that I can live with. The same may be true for the Epson though, I cannot tell for sure as I never have spent enough time with one in person.

Would love a screenshot of Sony vs Epson *without* any sharpening enhancement to be able to judge native sharpness. Also macro shot of pixel substructure would be immensely helpful to understand what the pixel fill rates look like.

Some things I noticed from your shots:
-RC is better than Super Resolution at bringing out detail (but possibly RC adds more noise to solid colors?)
-In Dark scenes Epson's bright areas are brighter, while blacks are maintained.
-Overall more pop on the Epson on average scenes. (whites are whiter/brighter, while blacks maintained)
-Color much better on the Sony, very clearly seen on the last shot with boy and girl in the jungle. Skin tones! Epson with blue push? Surely this can be calibrated / tweaked.

The Moderno Theatre! Slideshow (here, and here!)
Pixar screenplay slideshows here!
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post #568 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Can already say anything or tease us with some first impressions of the JVC Zombie? Dying to know what it s like in 2D and especially in 3D! Maybe it is possible that JVC will release a final firmware where the FI in 3D might work after all? If you sum up a good brightness and good ghosting that the JVC might have it would only leave the flicker for the JVC.

Yea i like to know to:)
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post #569 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks for doing this DGP! smile.gif
Still dont understand PC getting 50ms though considering some of their lag tests have lined up with what Zombie hit with some of these projectors last year. Could using an LCD monitor get the lag right sometimes and not others if that is what they are using as SOWK has suggested?

I'm not sure what they use to test lag, but I know using an LCD will get you inaccurate readings. If I was a full on reviewer I would have everything documented on how I test and how I calibrate.

I won't just take their word for it. To many, so called professionals, are not very reliable. (This is not a hit at Projector Central, but I would need to know all the details and how the testing is done.

Everything needs to be known,

Room size
Room color
Screen size
Screen material
Do they always fill their screen when doing reviews
Calibration gear
CRT vs LCD for lag tests
What input are they using for lag tests? (This can change the lag to if not properly designed)
Do they measure ANSI correctly
Are they measuring on/off correctly
Do they even know how to calibrate properly
Do they check each mode to see where to start with a calibration
Are they getting paid off by a company for a good review? Lol.

Plus much more.

Not one of the pro reviews noticed the 1:1 pixel mapping problem of the BenQ w7000.
I had to be the beta tester to figure that one out for the community. HA... wink.gif

So no I don't naturally trust reviewers unless I know more about their background and testing habits.


Also no one is perfect, not even me. eek.gif I still ask questions when I don't know the answers.
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post #570 of 9889 Old 11-04-2012, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post


Still dont understand PC getting 50ms though considering some of their lag tests have lined up with what Zombie hit with some of these projectors last year. Could using an LCD monitor get the lag right sometimes and not others if that is what they are using as SOWK has suggested?

I went back and checked my notes, my ~70ms recordings were with the iris on standard, not on 'High Speed'. I'll go back and check it when I have a chance, that could likely make up for the ~8 ms difference between our measurements.

Even if it's definitely 62ms, I guess i'm missing the excitement. The 5010 was solidly at ~80ms. In other words, is someone going to upgrade from a 5010 to a 5020 for ~18 ms improvement? Why wouldn't a serious gamer go for the HW50 instead given that it's more than twice as fast in regard to latency.
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