Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 193 - AVS Forum
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post #5761 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 04:03 PM
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Hey zombie,

An update:
After spending sometime with my usual salesman, I have narrowed it down between the JVC RS4910 and the RS57. I am looking at around $4800 for the 4910 (his supplier is very firm on the price of this unit and doesn't offer the RS49 for some reason) and around $6999 for the RS57.
For s***s and giggles, he quoted the RS6710 for me at around $9500 (not bad I would think) and around the same price for the Sony 600ES.

Questions:
It is my understanding that the difference between the RS4910 and RS49 is an extra year on warranty and ISF certification, correct?
Is the Native and Dynamic ration's the only big difference between the RS4910 and RS57?
Is the contrast difference between the RS4910 and RS57 THAT noticeable in a blacked out room when calibrated?

I keep getting closer and closer to a decision. Thanks guys!


EDIT:
Saw you basically answered my questions in a post right before I made this one. Thanks!!!
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post #5762 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

if you decide on the JVC's, I would wait a few days for JVC to respond to the various HDMI issues that were reported. It will likely be fixed with a firmware update but we should hear about it soon.

I am about 99% sure I am deciding on a JVC (see my post above, I have eliminated the HW55ES from my decision).

That being said, what HDMI issues are people having? Is it on all new JVC projectors or just specific models or just random reports?

Thanks!
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post #5763 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Hey zombie,

An update:
After spending sometime with my usual salesman, I have narrowed it down between the JVC RS4910 and the RS57. I am looking at around $4800 for the 4910 (his supplier is very firm on the price of this unit and doesn't offer the RS49 for some reason) and around $6999 for the RS57.
For s***s and giggles, he quoted the RS6710 for me at around $9500 (not bad I would think) and around the same price for the Sony 600ES.

Questions:
It is my understanding that the difference between the RS4910 and RS49 is an extra year on warranty and ISF certification, correct?
Is the Native and Dynamic ration's the only big difference between the RS4910 and RS57?
Is the contrast difference between the RS4910 and RS57 THAT noticeable in a blacked out room when calibrated?

I keep getting closer and closer to a decision. Thanks guys!


EDIT:
Saw you basically answered my questions in a post right before I made this one. Thanks!!!

If I were you I would contact Mike G. or Craig here at AVS for prices on the JVC's. I know the preorder price is over but I bet they can easily beat those price quotes you were given for the 4910 and 57.

Mike

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post #5764 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

If I were you I would contact Mike G. or Craig here at AVS for prices on the JVC's. I know the preorder price is over but I bet they can easily beat those price quotes you were given for the 4910 and 57.

Mike

Yea, I figured I should. My dealer is able to give FANTASTIC prices on Sony projectors (the price he quoted me on the HW55ES is ridiculous), but I think because they haven't sold JVC in a few years they don't get that great of a dealer discount to pass along. He never usually high balls me, so I know he isn't quoting me high on purpose.

I'll see what AVS Science has to offer for price. Still have to narrow it down though. Thanks.
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post #5765 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 04:51 PM
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If I was helping someone decide between a 4910 and a 57 I personally would recommend a 4910 and use the difference in price to buy a Lumagen processor. You'd more likely notice the improvements in calibration and scaling more than the differences in contrast performance.

The Sony 600 is a completely different scenario since it is considerably brighter and has a native 4K panel. This would mean it is probably better suited for very large screens or rooms with some ambient light plus getting access to 4K material available right now.

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post #5766 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 04:59 PM
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Does the RS57 have a full CMS and the 4910 not? I guess you are talking about using a multi-point convergence in the Lumagen anyway...I would think about the eecolor box and use the 4910.

B.
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post #5767 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

Does the RS57 have a full CMS and the 4910 not? I guess you are talking about using a multi-point convergence in the Lumagen anyway...I would think about the eecolor box and use the 4910.

B.

You can only use the eecolor if you don't play 3D bluray and don't need ring free 4K upscaling. It's HDMI 1.3 and doesn't passthrough bluray 3D at all. A lumagen 20xx is a much better match for the new Eshift/4K displays, but they are more expensive.
There is a full CMS in the 4910 (same as in the rs57), but if it performs similarly to the one in the past models it's not a match for a good 5x5x5 or 9x9x9 cube calibration from a Lumagen (or an eecolor if you dont't care about 3D and have no other need like scaling, darbee, etc). The eecolor is just a (very good) LUT box for 2D 1080p content. No processing or scaling.
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post #5768 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 05:28 PM
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Now you guys have lost me. Lumagen?
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post #5769 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I have been meaning to ask you about this, but keep forgetting. This picture above illustrates beautifully what I was trying to describe as far a the general through the window type effect, clarity, resolution and sharpness difference between the JVCs and Sony 600 that I observed at Cedia with good source material like Oblivion (I saw Spiderman which also looked excellent). This to me was a significant difference in favor of the Sony as this higher res look just gave the image a next level feel vs the softer (in comparison) eshifted JVC. The pictures above capture this perfectly, and from your comments it sounds like you can easily see this with a good real world source like Oblivion. My question is in your opinion, is this difference mainly due to a native 4k panel vs 4k lite eshift or something else (lens, RC, etc.......)? I was amazed at how the Sony even with being blown up bigger to 13' wide still had a noticeable advantage in this area vs the smaller 11' wide JVC image. Even going from a 7' wide image to a 9' wide image in my setup I can see a general hit to perceived resolution and sharpness, so the fact that the Sony not only looked better in this area, but also looked better throwing a considerably bigger image was very impressive to me. Throw in the better brightness as well, and this to me was a significant advantage for the Sony. I take it from your comments that you can see this clarity/resolution/sharpness difference easily between the Sony and JVC with a good real world source like Oblivion when doing an A/B?

Wow, the difference between those two pictures looks huge on my monitor! I wouldn't have guessed that much difference. It looks like one image is out of focus!
I too am deciding between the JVC 57 & Sony 600. If I based my decision on those images alone, its easy win for Sony.
I hope to see both projectors demoed at CES.

Brad
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post #5770 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post

Wow, the difference between those two pictures looks huge on my monitor! I wouldn't have guessed that much difference. It looks like one image is out of focus!
I too am deciding between the JVC 57 & Sony 600. If I based my decision on those images alone, its easy win for Sony.
I hope to see both projectors demoed at CES.

but you shouldn't.... smile.gif it doesn't translate the same when watching video content.

it's definitely worth seeing both in person before making a decision.
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post #5771 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

You can only use the eecolor if you don't play 3D bluray and don't need ring free 4K upscaling. It's HDMI 1.3 and doesn't passthrough bluray 3D at all. A lumagen 20xx is a much better match for the new Eshift/4K displays, but they are more expensive.
There is a full CMS in the 4910 (same as in the rs57), but if it performs similarly to the one in the past models it's not a match for a good 5x5x5 or 9x9x9 cube calibration from a Lumagen (or an eecolor if you dont't care about 3D and have no other need like scaling, darbee, etc). The eecolor is just a (very good) LUT box for 2D 1080p content. No processing or scaling.

Well, spending $5k on a projector and then another $4k on a processor isn't in my playbook. The eecolor @ $700 makes a whole lot more sense. 3D can suck it! I don't watch it. And as for 4k scaling...I guess I'm curious how much worse it is in the JVC vs. the outboard scaler. Perhaps Jason can chime in...

B.
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post #5772 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Now you guys have lost me. Lumagen?

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiance20XX_details

B.
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post #5773 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 06:52 PM
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I too am deciding between the JVC 57 & Sony 600

I three am in the same boat. I've seen the 600, now waiting to see the X700.
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post #5774 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

but you shouldn't.... smile.gif it doesn't translate the same when watching video content.

it's definitely worth seeing both in person before making a decision.

When you say "it doesn't translate the same when watching video content" are you saying you do not see the same dramatic difference Toe saw at Cedia " This picture above illustrates beautifully what I was trying to describe as far a the general through the window type effect, clarity, resolution and sharpness difference between the JVCs and Sony 600 that I observed at Cedia with good source material like Oblivion (I saw Spiderman which also looked excellent). This to me was a significant difference in favor of the Sony as this higher res look just gave the image a next level feel vs the softer (in comparison) eshifted JVC"?
I'm just trying to understand the different reactions from different viewers.smile.gif

Brad
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post #5775 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

You can only use the eecolor if you don't play 3D bluray and don't need ring free 4K upscaling. It's HDMI 1.3 and doesn't passthrough bluray 3D at all. A lumagen 20xx is a much better match for the new Eshift/4K displays, but they are more expensive.
There is a full CMS in the 4910 (same as in the rs57), but if it performs similarly to the one in the past models it's not a match for a good 5x5x5 or 9x9x9 cube calibration from a Lumagen (or an eecolor if you dont't care about 3D and have no other need like scaling, darbee, etc). The eecolor is just a (very good) LUT box for 2D 1080p content. No processing or scaling.

I think the eecolor allows you to use a Darbee and eshift. Well, that's what I have been told
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post #5776 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post

When you say "it doesn't translate the same when watching video content" are you saying you do not see the same dramatic difference Toe saw at Cedia " This picture above illustrates beautifully what I was trying to describe as far a the general through the window type effect, clarity, resolution and sharpness difference between the JVCs and Sony 600 that I observed at Cedia with good source material like Oblivion (I saw Spiderman which also looked excellent). This to me was a significant difference in favor of the Sony as this higher res look just gave the image a next level feel vs the softer (in comparison) eshifted JVC"?
I'm just trying to understand the different reactions from different viewers.smile.gif

I think it's hard to evaluate them separately unless you see them in a direct A/B looking at the same exact source. I guess what I am saying is... with RC and e-shift both set to the OOTB settings looking at the same sharp frame in Oblivion, there isn't a day / night difference in the overall PQ. Yes i think there is a bit of an edge to the Sony sitting 1.25 SW from my 142". e-shift can handle noise a bit better in low APL scenes vs. RC. I don't think these subtleties are going to be obvious at a trade show unless all conditions are the same.

in my tests, I am removing as many variables as possible to try and get an objective look at both models. There's several unique features I like about each model.
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post #5777 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

Well, spending $5k on a projector and then another $4k on a processor isn't in my playbook. The eecolor @ $700 makes a whole lot more sense. 3D can suck it! I don't watch it. And as for 4k scaling...I guess I'm curious how much worse it is in the JVC vs. the outboard scaler. Perhaps Jason can chime in...

B.

Also, you can do a 3375pt autocal with the eeColor.
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post #5778 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post

When you say "it doesn't translate the same when watching video content" are you saying you do not see the same dramatic difference Toe saw at Cedia " This picture above illustrates beautifully what I was trying to describe as far a the general through the window type effect, clarity, resolution and sharpness difference between the JVCs and Sony 600 that I observed at Cedia with good source material like Oblivion (I saw Spiderman which also looked excellent). This to me was a significant difference in favor of the Sony as this higher res look just gave the image a next level feel vs the softer (in comparison) eshifted JVC"?
I'm just trying to understand the different reactions from different viewers.smile.gif


Definitely go with Zombies report here. You have to understand that there were a ton of variables with my impressions at Cedia such as different screens, rooms, source material, no idea how each projector was setup, etc.........this is why I was so curious to ask Zombie this question since he has the luxury of eliminating these variables and being able to do a direct A/B comparison.


Zombie, I assume at some point you will be getting a 4910 to check out? I am now curious what real world differences there are between this machine and the 57 for contrast in particular and anything else you happen to notice.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #5779 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

wizziwig - I didn't mean to infer that it's 'loud' just that walking within a few feet of the projector, I definitely knew it was in high lamp. I would say the tone is a bit different this year if anything. I have a friend's X35 here and will stack them to give some kind of reference between the 2 in high lamp.

I would still say the 600 in high lamp is a bit quieter than the JVC. The 1000 is practically silent in high lamp vs. both other models. This makes sense to me since they are likely using larger fans in this massive case.

thanks for posting those judder tests. once the dusts settles I'll take a look at them on the 30K in 3D.

Interesting. I wonder if the JVC X500 might be running cooler/quieter in Europe due to their 220V power. Given the magnitude of the dB delta they reported, it should be a drastic difference. They also commented that it made the high mode practical for cases where you want to clamp down the iris for maximum contrast but still retain usable brightness. In any case, good to hear that the vw600 has maintained Sony's trend for building very quiet projectors. The hw15 and vw85 I owned were definitely the quietest projectors I've used and were totally acceptable even in high bulb mode sitting right behind me.

When using those judder test files, make sure your source device refresh rate matches the file fps. 23.976, 24.0, etc. - each requires a different video mode on a PC to be displayed smoothly.
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post #5780 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I think it's hard to evaluate them separately unless you see them in a direct A/B looking at the same exact source. I guess what I am saying is... with RC and e-shift both set to the OOTB settings looking at the same sharp frame in Oblivion, there isn't a day / night difference in the overall PQ. Yes i think there is a bit of an edge to the Sony sitting 1.25 SW from my 142". e-shift can handle noise a bit better in low APL scenes vs. RC. I don't think these subtleties are going to be obvious at a trade show unless all conditions are the same.

in my tests, I am removing as many variables as possible to try and get an objective look at both models. There's several unique features I like about each model.

It's really great they way you are doing this, trying to cut down variables.

My hunch from the beginning (after seeing the Sony VW1000, playing with brightness on my JVC, and reading other comparisons) was that once the brightness was matched, at least for 1080p content, (and probably with image enhancement processing off) the differences were going to be relatively minor. And that a lot of what the Sony brings to the table is sheer brightness, and then adds the different-looking (and apparently excellent) RC image enhancement.

However, that hunch in no way dismisses the value of brightness. Brightness in of itself can be such a big help in increasing the perception of image quality almost across the board - contrast, punch, pop, sharpness, image detail, color richness/detail etc - that it's a huge asset for the Sony to begin with. (Depending on specific set-ups, yadda, yadda...)
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post #5781 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Hey zombie,

An update:
After spending sometime with my usual salesman, I have narrowed it down between the JVC RS4910 and the RS57. I am looking at around $4800 for the 4910 (his supplier is very firm on the price of this unit and doesn't offer the RS49 for some reason) and around $6999 for the RS57.
For s***s and giggles, he quoted the RS6710 for me at around $9500 (not bad I would think) and around the same price for the Sony 600ES.

Questions:
It is my understanding that the difference between the RS4910 and RS49 is an extra year on warranty and ISF certification, correct?
Is the Native and Dynamic ration's the only big difference between the RS4910 and RS57?
Is the contrast difference between the RS4910 and RS57 THAT noticeable in a blacked out room when calibrated?

I keep getting closer and closer to a decision. Thanks guys!


EDIT:
Saw you basically answered my questions in a post right before I made this one. Thanks!!!

We would be happy to help you. smile.gif

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post #5782 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 08:03 PM
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We would be happy to help you. smile.gif

Are you guys open 24/7? Jeez, it's Saturday! lol, but I'll definitely be giving you guys a call Monday to explore pricing.

Thanks.
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post #5783 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 08:43 PM
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Are you guys open 24/7? Jeez, it's Saturday! lol, but I'll definitely be giving you guys a call Monday to explore pricing.

Thanks.

Even when I am not working, I hang out here a lot. smile.gif Look forward to talking to you again Dylan. smile.gif

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post #5784 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I think it's hard to evaluate them separately unless you see them in a direct A/B looking at the same exact source. I guess what I am saying is... with RC and e-shift both set to the OOTB settings looking at the same sharp frame in Oblivion, there isn't a day / night difference in the overall PQ. Yes i think there is a bit of an edge to the Sony sitting 1.25 SW from my 142". e-shift can handle noise a bit better in low APL scenes vs. RC. I don't think these subtleties are going to be obvious at a trade show unless all conditions are the same.

in my tests, I am removing as many variables as possible to try and get an objective look at both models. There's several unique features I like about each model.

Yes, the way you are testing these projectors is excellent, thank you for your hard work!
Not a day / night difference overall is very favorable for JVC at almost half the price.
Would you say that out of box settings, before calibration, the differences are much greater favoring Sony, that JVC requires calibration to match or get close to PQ of Sony?

Brad
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post #5785 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

It's really great they way you are doing this, trying to cut down variables.

My hunch from the beginning (after seeing the Sony VW1000, playing with brightness on my JVC, and reading other comparisons) was that once the brightness was matched, at least for 1080p content, (and probably with image enhancement processing off) the differences were going to be relatively minor. And that a lot of what the Sony brings to the table is sheer brightness, and then adds the different-looking (and apparently excellent) RC image enhancement.

However, that hunch in no way dismisses the value of brightness. Brightness in of itself can be such a big help in increasing the perception of image quality almost across the board - contrast, punch, pop, sharpness, image detail, color richness/detail etc - that it's a huge asset for the Sony to begin with. (Depending on specific set-ups, yadda, yadda...)

I saw Sony demo the 1000 at CES 2 years ago and was in awe of the picture quality. Amazing brightness, color and clarity. Now I read from various reports ( I haven't seen the new 600), at half the price Sony's 600 is as bright and colorful with only slightly less clarity, amazing! I can't wait to see it at CES! As you say brightness is a huge factor in image quality on many levels. To use a little Hot Rod lingo, I wonder if you have to run the JVC at max rpm (buy a Lumagen, use high lamp mode, calibrate, etc) just to try to equal what Sony will cruise at out of the box? If that's the case then maybe Sony is worth the much higher price.

Brad
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post #5786 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post

I saw Sony demo the 1000 at CES 2 years ago and was in awe of the picture quality. Amazing brightness, color and clarity. Now I read from various reports ( I haven't seen the new 600), at half the price Sony's 600 is as bright and colorful with only slightly less clarity, amazing! I can't wait to see it at CES! As you say brightness is a huge factor in image quality on many levels. To use a little Hot Rod lingo, I wonder if you have to run the JVC at max rpm (buy a Lumagen, use high lamp mode, calibrate, etc) just to try to equal what Sony will cruise at out of the box? If that's the case then maybe Sony is worth the much higher price.

All will probably suggest to calibrate the Sony and to use a Lumagen just as with a JVC. The Sony will not stay accurate for its bulbs life. JVC bulbs are about half the price too.
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post #5787 of 9784 Old 01-04-2014, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

All will probably suggest to calibrate the Sony and to use a Lumagen just as with a JVC. The Sony will not stay accurate for its bulbs life. JVC bulbs are about half the price too.

As I understand it, the Sony has a built in auto calibration to keep calibrated for most of the lamps life.

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post #5788 of 9784 Old 01-05-2014, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I think the eecolor allows you to use a Darbee and eshift. Well, that's what I have been told

Of course you can add an external darbee (if you trust it for not causing any HDMI/colourspace issues, the one I tested did cause some with my rs45 and it sounds like it might be doing the same with the new models). But neither the eecolor nor the darbee are able to upscale to 4K (ring free) and add the video processing that a radiance does.

Also the new JVC models have a native 4K input, which means that if you feed them 4K through the eecolor you will have to downscale to 1080p to process the signal by the eecolor and then upscale it back to 4K (eshift only works with 4K pictures so the picture has to be upscaled internally before being eshifted). Not the best signal path for native 4K content if you ask me.

Anyway, I only wanted to stress the main reason why I ruled out the eecolor after I researched it last year. Unlike Brian, and like many here, I do care about 3D so HDMI 1.3 and no 3D was a dealbreaker for me in 2013. Add no 4K passthrough and it's even more of a dealbreaker in 2014, especially with the models recently discussed here.

Brian doesn't care about this, so as I said the eecolor is an excellent choice if he only needs a simple LUT box for 2D 1080p video content and doesn't care about it being unable to passthrough 3D or 4K to a model with 3D and native 4K input.
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post #5789 of 9784 Old 01-05-2014, 03:00 AM
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I just saw a shootout of the Sony vw500 and the jvc x35 at my local dealer last weekend and I was flabbergasted how close they looked! I was expecting a huge advantage in clarity, pop and brightness to the sony but it was hard to tell them apart. The sony was slightly brighter, comparable to jvc high lamp in low, whereas the jvc had a bit more contrasty image with deeper blacks. Other than that they looked identical. Both pj were calibrated with fully opened irises shooting at a 254 cm wide clearpix 2 screen in a light controlled room. I tried going close to the screen to better see details but percieved no difference in clarity. The AT screen might have some effect here, but nonetheless it's amazing how close the much cheaper jvc was. I realized just how incremental the improvements get after you reached a certain threshold. Yes, I could use the sony brightness on the 138'' neve scope
screen I have on order but the price delta is just a bit too much compared to what I get and I think Ill upgrade the audio side this year instead and see whats coming next winter.
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post #5790 of 9784 Old 01-05-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post "I too am deciding between the JVC 57 & Sony 600."
but you shouldn't.... smile.gif it doesn't translate the same when watching video content. it's definitely worth seeing both in person before making a decision.

Here is my dilemma: the JVC 57 or Sony 600ES

 

JVC RS57 vs Sony 600ES price difference $7,000 is the Sony that much better that it justify $7000 more! I am not sure? Even discounted the Sony still hover around $10,000 so is $3000 worth it!

 

I have a very hard time justifying that especially since the Sony has a plastic lens :(  I would nnever think of having a plastic lense on my Nikon 800

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