Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 241 - AVS Forum
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post #7201 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

No problem reading that Kris favor JVC , when he do not get out the positive stuff about the sony only the positive stuff of the JVC how much value is it then?

You're right, I didn't have a single positive thing to say about the Sony and only had nice things to say about the JVC. You caught me. Sony bad, JVC good.

Is this an April Fool's Day joke or something????

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post #7202 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

This again makes no sense. So based on this would the absolute ONLY conclusion that wouldn't be a waste of your time be for me to lie about my viewing conclusions and state the Sony the winner??? How does that help anyone?? The JVC was ABSOLUTELY NOT the winner before the test. If that was the case I surely wouldn't have wasted my time doing the viewing tests all over again and planned on doing even more tests this week. I have plenty of other things to do with my time but I wanted to see the Sony in the best setup conditions I could to make an informed decision FOR MYSELF and to relay those results for others that may want to know my thoughts. If the Sony ended up looking better for me and the way I intend on using it I would probably buy one. You know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about me yet you assume that I went through all of this just to ensure that I could say the JVC was better. If that was the case I would never have done the testing in the first place because I DON'T GIVE TWO #(*%'s which one people think is better, I wanted to test which one I THOUGHT was better to make an educated purchase decision. Brand loyalty makes absolutely NO sense to me at all. JVC and Sony don't care at all about me personally, they are selling a product. Why would I care which people prefer? I gain NOTHING by people buying a JVC over a Sony and vice versa. The damn projector could say Zenith on it for all I care, but if it threw the best image FOR MY VIEWING CONDITIONS AND USAGE you'd be damn sure that is what I'd use and say was the BEST PROJECTOR FOR ME.

But if hearing other opinions and conclusions other than your own is a waste of your time, you're definitely in the wrong place.

Hehe no probe keep it up like I said I'm done for now.
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post #7203 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:10 PM
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From Kris' post:
Quote:
The JVC does VERY little image pumping, the iris is nearly invisible with the only pumping noticed during the credits of most films. But the JVC does use quite a bit of gamma boost throughout the iris range to keep the image contrasty and avoid a lot of brightness compression.

I guess that must account for something that has struck me about my RS57.

Before receiving the projector, we engaged in speculation about what one could actually expect in terms of benefits from the new DI. My expectations were actually quite conservative because I'd always found
a trade off between closing down the aperture for better black levels and the peak white even within those low APL scenes (e.g. star fields). In other words, with my previous JVC projectors, with the iris open stars looked much more realistically bright and tinkly, but the black of space suffered. Closing down the iris meant more convincing black for space, but less vibrant, and hence less convincing looking stars.
So the a closed down aperture for best black levels came at the expense of a less vibrant, less contrasty, flatter image in some ways. So even though I figured some gamma manipulation would be thrown in to the mix by JVC, I still expected this type of trade-off, only occurring dynamically/automatically, when using the DI.

But I have been pleasantly surprised instead at just how dynamic, contrasty and vibrant the image looks across all content using the DI. Whether it is Alien, or Star Wars, or 2001 space Odyssey, none have ever looked so great with star fields having bright twinkly stars against really deep black backgrounds. 2001, with lots of distance shots of bright spacecraft against space, looked so amazing and dynamic viewing it last night. I've never seen bright areas in the image so richly contrasted against dark areas (in any projected image) before.

And bright scenes look superbly vivid. Saturday Night Live on my RS57 has a near flat-panel-like sense of contrast and vibrancy IMO.

And the overall sense of image depth is something that continually stands out. Especially with 2001 Space Odyssey, space gets dark enough, and objects are so high contrast against the blackness, that
I really get a sense of peering into space-like distances to the stars, planets, floating astronauts.

Of course if I had a Sony I'd be talking about how great it looks too. But obviously, owning the JVC I write about what I experience with that projector.

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post #7204 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:11 PM
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Man, this is killing Zombies thread! May need to take this argument to PM at this time. rolleyes.gif

Loop me in though...this is how I feel when I get cursed out by a 10 year old boy that sounds like a girl on XBOX Live, LOL! There's no way to make sense to them...they just don't understand.

Kris, you found plenty that you liked about the Sony after redoing the comparison with RC on. It just isn't night and day better than the JVC like they see.

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post #7205 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

Can you prove they are totally different? Do you have a link to somewhere that describes the differences? They sound exactly the same to me...

I have done that earlier, but I can do it again. The RC in the HW50/55 is mostly sharpening and I guess it is the same in the AVR, and the RC in the VW600/1100 is working together with the upscaling and is mostly upscaling. It is based on the same but in the VW600/1100 it is working together with the upscaling chips you find in them and not in the HW50/55 or the AVRs with RC.

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post #7206 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I have done that earlier, but I can do it again. The RC in the HW50/55 is mostly sharpening and I guess it is the same in the AVR, and the RC in the VW600/1100 is working together with the upscaling and is mostly upscaling. It is based on the same but in the VW600/1100 it is working together with the upscaling chips you find in them and not in the HW50/55 or the AVRs with RC.

The Sony STR-DN1040 is using RC and 4K Upscaling in conjunction with one another. It may be a little different, but it's probably not "that" much different. I bet they didn't change the algorithm very much. I'll try to confirm/deny this with a Sony Engineer. Until then...

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post #7207 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

Hehe no probe keep it up like I said I'm done for now.
I hope you continue to post your impressions of the projectors since you own both. Your and Adreas21 impressions and specific scenes to compare have been very valuable to the community.
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post #7208 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

How does that make anything I stated incorrect? The point was about an issue the JVC had, not the Sony. Saying my entire statement is incorrect because one thing that had nothing to do with my point was incorrect is stupid. Could you please link me to something where it states the new 4K panels are now being driven digitally? I also think that just because I didn't do an A/B doesn't mean that everything I've said is "worthless". I think you're being overagressive and defensive simply because a few of us don't agree with everything you've said.

I'd like Kris to use his Darblet (HD 35%), enable e-shift and and turn MPC with settings around 30 (whenever JVC decides to fix those issues) and I would imagine a lot of the advantage the Sony had over the JVC will once again be diminished.

Why do I have to provide a link to prove the Sonys panels are driven digitally? This is info I have from Sony techs and it is true, and if you need proof find out yourself.

I accept that others like different thing than me I just don´t understand how you guys don´t see the huge difference in sharpness, clarity, dynamics and 3D feel, but I guess you don´t want to see it. I find the JVC X500 to be the best bang for the buck projector right now, but if we see past that I find the Sony to have the best total picture. Why can you not accept that this is my view as I have accepted your, Kris and many others here that the JVC is the best, but I just started this with a comment on the wrong setup of the Sony VW600.

And I must ask you, where have I been overagressive and defensive about this. And I have tried many times to say we just need to agree to disagree and leave it with that. I will never be able to convince you JVC guys that the Sony is the better machine.smile.gif

And of corse if you use Darbee at 35% and use a Lumagen and other stuff on the Sony it will also make the Sony better, I know this as I use it on my VW1000 soon to be 1100.cool.gif

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post #7209 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I hope you continue to post your impressions of the projectors since you own both. Your and Adreas21 impressions and specific scenes to compare have been very valuable to the community.

I don´t think so as I find many in here just see me as a clown who has no clue and should just keep his mouth shut.

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post #7210 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

... the only thing that mattered to me was to get a fair comperison between the two.
I think you are proving otherwise, while Kris is proving that he is willing to jump through hoops to try to make things fair.

I figured you probably wouldn't ask you calibrator those questions.

One thing this exchange is providing for me is good evidence for the future about who I believe isn't truly trustworthy.

And if somebody wants to add the Darbee to the Sony that is fine with me. It is cheap. They can add it and the Lumagen to both if they want as long as they said so. But if the RC on the Sony is already doing much of what the Darbee does I'm not sure a person would want to enable both. If it makes the images better then of course I'm all for it. I would have been very happy if I went to see a projector I could get for under $7k and it completely blew away everything I had ever seen, regardless of what brand it is. That would be awesome. I don't have a stake in the game.

Seriously, if you wanted it to be fair then why not ask the calibrator if he could get the shadow detail the way you want it? You seem to make assumptions about having an overall 2.35 gamma that are not true in the real world.

--Darin
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post #7211 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I don´t think so as I find many in here just see me as a clown who has no clue and should just keep his mouth shut.

I certainly don't feel that way and I appreciate that you helped me with the settings on the 600ES. I would have missed out substantially on a feature that makes a tremendous difference to the picture quality of the 600ES. I realize we agree to disagree on which throws the better image but considering that we're talking about two spectacular projectors here, it is a win-win regardless of which you chose.

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post #7212 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:37 PM
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Oh and for the record, I don't own either projector. I actually don't own ANY projectors at the moment. I have an X700 on loan from JVC and the 600ES on loan from Sony. Hence why I wanted to compare them directly to decide how I would like to proceed going forward.

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post #7213 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

Dude, I'm not trying to argue about some pics. But what conclusion did you expect me to come to when there's no information about the images and you post them right in the middle of the most awesome JVC v/s Sony battle of the millenium?
I posted the images asking which one was 'better'. That is all you had to answer. To somehow come to the conclusion that the image you consider 'poor' I implied is a JVC is all in your head and does not exist in the real world.

The point of the comparison is that it is not very useful to conclude which is 'better' without knowing what it is supposed to look like. If you are the Wachowski brothers doing Bound you may want it to look like the first image, if Mann on Miami Vice you may prefer the second.

The images are of the same display and were pulled from:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409045/how-power-law-gamma-calibration-can-lead-to-crushed-blacks

The top image uses a power law 2.3 gamma. The second uses an inverse BT.709 which most would consider "wrong". This example supports DarinP's point that how you setup the projectors may have the most significant impact on image comparisons.
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post #7214 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I don´t think so as I find many in here just see me as a clown who has no clue and should just keep his mouth shut.
You need to just ignore the fanboys since all they care about is 'proving' that the projector they bought is better than the projector you bought. God only knows why that is important to them.
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post #7215 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I think you are proving otherwise, while Kris is proving that he is willing to jump through hoops to try to make things fair.

I figured you probably wouldn't ask you calibrator those questions.

One thing this exchange is providing for me is good evidence for the future about who I believe isn't truly trustworthy.

And if somebody wants to add the Darbee to the Sony that is fine with me. It is cheap. They can add it and the Lumagen to both if they want as long as they said so. But if the RC on the Sony is already doing much of what the Darbee does I'm not sure a person would want to enable both. If it makes the images better then of course I'm all for it. I would have been very happy if I went to see a projector I could get for under $7k and it completely blew away everything I had ever seen, regardless of what brand it is. That would be awesome. I don't have a stake in the game.

Seriously, if you wanted it to be fair then why not ask the calibrator if he could get the shadow detail the way you want it? You seem to make assumptions about having an overall 2.35 gamma that are not true in the real world.

--Darin

Darin!

Of corse I can ask my calibrator these questions, but I don´t see why. My friend ownes the X500 and the VW500 was a unit owned by Sony Europe so I don´t have it anymore, so I will not be able to see them toghether again. But my friend also ownes the VW1000 and I have the chance to side by side test (and we do it the same way Kris does on the same screen blocking one lens and so on) the X500 agaist the VW1000 any day. And I must admit most of my impressions is comparing the VW1000 and X500, and the VW1000 is a better machine than the VW500.

And I know you guys don´t find me trustworthy, but that is ok with me.

And Darbee and RC algorythms is not the same.

I said I want the tests to be fair and I tried to do this with using the same calibrator and the same standards and brightness matched them, but when this results in the Sony being better with details in darker scenes you start asking questions you know I can not answer. But I dont talk with my calibrator every day, but if I remember I will ask him the next time I talk to him.smile.gif

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Andreas


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post #7216 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

You need to just ignore the fanboys since all they care about is 'proving' that the projector they bought is better than the projector you bought. God only knows why that is important to them.

Comments like those are a great detriment to this forum. It's just mudslinging with no good result whatsoever.

I'd ask who these "fanboys" are. Kris? He stated he doesn't own either projector. Also stated he can see the reasons why people would prefer either one.
Darin? As I understand it, he's always moving through a variety of projectors.
Me? I haven't denigrated the Sony once. I thought the VW1000 looked amazing and almost bought the Sony 600ES myself, and have continually said I'd no doubt have a lot to rave about if I'd bought the Sony.
Who else are you talking about?


If you actually named names, I don't think your disparaging remarks would have a leg to stand on. And not aiming your remarks at someone specific, and actually showing how they fit your description, isn't being more civil. It's actually worse: it's just flinging mud indiscriminately, with the result that you not only piss even more people off than if you talked specifically to the person you are thinking of, it also it casts negative light on the efforts of people on this forum who really do care about these things and try to give our best efforts in describing our experiences.

What I see are people doing their best to control variables in their tests. There is no reason whatsoever that if the Sony actually did, in Kris' tests, show a higher contrast image or just pulled ahead in some obvious general way, that Kris wouldn't wish to acknowledge this (and he did acknowledge some superiority in the Sony). Why the hell wouldn't he? He want's better projector technology just like the rest of us. It just happens that the JVC has objectively higher contrast and that suits Kris' criteria for his theater best. He said he can see how others would prefer the Sony, and has said also why the Sony would be the better choice in some set ups (e.g. larger screens). Someone who gets butt-hurt over these even-handed observations, because Kris did not just declare the Sony obviously the superior projector overall, would be more "fan-boy" than the way Kris has comported himself. But, personally, I don't see the forum filled with fan-boys. We all want better projectors, wherever they come from.

Personally, I'd have loved it if Kris had found the Sony to be obviously better than the JVC, since I have money earmarked for a projector upgrade and I'm keeping my eye on Sony as well as JVC.

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post #7217 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 01:18 PM
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I'm thinking that if nothing else, this comparison proves what I've thought for awhile - good projectors are all throwing an excellent picture, and what separates them from each other isn't necessarily picture quality - it's features. Lumens, lens memory, etc. I thought the RS57 and the VW600 throw a great picture - depends on your screen size and budget. I'm a fan of both, and I own neither ! wink.gif

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post #7218 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I posted the images asking which one was 'better'. That is all you had to answer. To somehow come to the conclusion that the image you consider 'poor' I implied is a JVC is all in your head and does not exist in the real world.

The point of the comparison is that it is not very useful to conclude which is 'better' without knowing what it is supposed to look like. If you are the Wachowski brothers doing Bound you may want it to look like the first image, if Mann on Miami Vice you may prefer the second.

The images are of the same display and were pulled from:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409045/how-power-law-gamma-calibration-can-lead-to-crushed-blacks

The top image uses a power law 2.3 gamma. The second uses an inverse BT.709 which most would consider "wrong". This example supports DarinP's point that how you setup the projectors may have the most significant impact on image comparisons.

Apologies then, I get your point now (then the bottom image looks better, IMO). But it's inconsiderate of yourself to bash me and to think that I should've drawn that conclusion out of thin air with no description or information given on your part other than images. It's obvious how I came to that conclusion; you posted those two comparison pics in the middle of the JVC v/s Sony comparison so it seemed obvious "to me" that you were comparing the same screenshot, one taken of the JVC and the other taken of the Sony.

Case in point, had you labeled the pics with this information that you provided below, then we wouldn't be in this conversion now would we?
Quote:
The images are of the same display and were pulled from:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409045/how-power-law-gamma-calibration-can-lead-to-crushed-blacks

The top image uses a power law 2.3 gamma. The second uses an inverse BT.709 which most would consider "wrong". This example supports DarinP's point that how you setup the projectors may have the most significant impact on image comparisons.

Respectfully,
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post #7219 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Comments like those are a great detriment to this forum. It's just mudslinging with no good result whatsoever.

I'd ask who these "fanboys" are. Kris? He stated he doesn't own either projector. Also stated he can see the reasons why people would prefer either one.
Darin? As I understand it, he's always moving through a variety of projectors.
Me? I haven't denigrated the Sony once. I thought the VW1000 looked amazing and almost bought the Sony 600ES myself, and have continually said I'd no doubt have a lot to rave about if I'd bought the Sony.
Who else are you talking about?.
Comments like yours are plain silly. I have positively posted about both Kris and Darin's shootouts in this thread going as far back as Darin's in 2004. I have called out an obvious fanboy comment in this thread and have ignored others.

Why my telling Andreas21 to ignore fanboys set you off is beyond me. I don't think any reasonable poster would disagree with that advice.
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post #7220 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

You need to just ignore the fanboys since all they care about is 'proving' that the projector they bought is better than the projector you bought. God only knows why that is important to them.

The reason it's important to a lot of them is because they feel that their long and hard decision on a certain purchase directly ties into how others will see them.

For many, to admit that they bought an inferior product or that they made the "wrong" choice, feels like that makes them look like a failure and directly tarnishes their character.

To know they didn't get the best buy decreases their self worth.

That's just my opinion anyways.

Reputation is what others think you are, Character is who you are! smile.gif
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I accept that others like different thing than me I just don´t understand how you guys don´t see the huge difference in sharpness, clarity, dynamics and 3D feel, but I guess you don´t want to see it. I find the JVC X500 to be the best bang for the buck projector right now, but if we see past that I find the Sony to have the best total picture. Why can you not accept that this is my view as I have accepted your, Kris and many others here that the JVC is the best, but I just started this with a comment on the wrong setup of the Sony VW600.

As someone who owns neither of these machines, nor has even seen them, a couple thoughts.

After Kris' latest comments I believe you and he saw basically the same thing regarding the Sony vs JVC. From his initial comparison, Kris said they were near parity detail wise, but after enabling RC he said the Sony's detail level improved greatly. He also said MPC/eShift did little on the JVC. Add that together and I read basically the same thing you have reported that the Sony provides a more detailed image than the JVC. I don't see any real discrepancy between these reports.

Where I do see a difference is that Kris went to the extra step of trying the JVC with a Darbee, and reported that this substantially closed the detail gap between them. Kris also seems to be more sensitive to the dynamic iris on the Sony than you are.

The other important difference is you've said your comments are largely based on the VW1100 not the VW600, which would also explain a bit of the difference, the VW1100 is reportedly sharper and substantially higher in contrast than the VW600, so that explains some of the difference as well.

So when you say things like "I just don´t understand how you guys don´t see the huge difference in sharpness, clarity, dynamics and 3D feel", I guess I just don't see it. Notwithstanding difference evaluations of what "huge" means, you have both (with similar calibrations) reported that the VW600 offers more detail than the JVC, so I don't see any evidence of people "not wanting to see it."


All that said, I do find this comparison quite interesting and revealing. Especially Kris' experiment. My takeaway from it is, 4k content aside, the "4k" of the Sony is not a benefit. The "secret sauce" of the VW600 when it comes to 1080p content is the RC software, which while different than a Darbee, brings many of the same benefits.

So I find Kris' comparison of Sony w/ RC to JVC with Darbee quite interesting, yes, it's not "fair" but it's very useful since a JVC+Darbee (+Lumagen) is a very viable alternative to a VW600, especially if you look at it from the perspective of there being no 4k content to speak of. An RS49+Darbee would be a great "holdover" for the next year or two while we wait for 4K to shake out.
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post #7222 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I'm thinking that if nothing else, this comparison proves what I've thought for awhile - good projectors are all throwing an excellent picture, and what separates them from each other isn't necessarily picture quality - it's features. Lumens, lens memory, etc. I thought the RS57 and the VW600 throw a great picture - depends on your screen size and budget. I'm a fan of both, and I own neither ! wink.gif
What I got out of this is the Sony and JVC both have "fanboys" and both have flaws and both have greatness in different areas. There really ins't any right or wrong here but it takes some time to ferret out how to best use them and in that vein Kris was miles ahead with JVC because that's what he knows but make an adjustment here or there and now the Sony looks a lot better. Perhaps the lesson to be learned (if there is one) is that comparing projectors isn't as easy as calibrating them, brightness matching them, putting them side by side, and feeding them identical signals unless that is also accompanied with setting them, perhaps differently from one another, to make each shine in what it does best.

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post #7223 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 01:59 PM
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What I got out of this is the Sony and JVC both have "fanboys" and both have flaws and both have greatness in different areas. There really ins't any right or wrong here but it takes some time to ferret out how to best use them and in that vein Kris was miles ahead with JVC because that's what he knows but make an adjustment here or there and now the Sony looks a lot better. Perhaps the lesson to be learned (if there is one) is that comparing projectors isn't as easy as putting them side by side and feeding them identical signals unless that is also accompanied with setting them, perhaps differently from one another, to make each shine in what it does best.

Exactly. And of course some people factor in price, others don't. I asked my wife what she thought of the picture the RS57 produced compared to our Sim Lumis. She said " I like ours better, but not 5 x $$$ better ". eek.gif

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post #7224 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Comments like yours are plain silly. I have positively posted about both Kris and Darin's shootouts in this thread going as far back as Darin's in 2004. I have called out an obvious fanboy comment in this thread and have ignored others.

Why my telling Andreas21 to ignore fanboys set you off is beyond me. I don't think any reasonable poster would disagree with that advice.

Ok if you weren't disparaging Kris or other people here I'm glad to hear it.

The problem is that misunderstandings can arise from unnecessary melodrama, and "fanboy" is always a comment meant to flame in some way or another.

Remember, the comment you'd responded to is were Andreas had written:

"I find many in here just see me as a clown "

So he's clearly talking about multiple people, and given most of his back and forth has been with Kris and Darin, the obvious inference is he's including them..and...who knows who else?

Your response also seemed to reference not one poster, but multiple "fanboys" : "You need to just ignore the fanboys since all they care about is 'proving' that the projector they bought is better than the projector you bought. God only knows why that is important to them."

So given the context of some disagreements going on in this thread among multiple persons, can you not see how such generalized comments leave people asking "who EXACTLY are these guys talking about?"

Fanboy comments are never helpful. They are always flame-bait, pure and simple.

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post #7225 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamikaze13 View Post

The reason it's important to a lot of them is because they feel that their long and hard decision on a certain purchase directly ties into how others will see them.

For many, to admit that they bought an inferior product or that they made the "wrong" choice, feels like that makes them look like a failure and directly tarnishes their character.

And yet, if these people exist I can not recall seeing them here on this forum (at least this projection forum), or highly represented in any way in any of the AVSforums.
What I see are lots of people who really are trying to find the best display for their own criteria, with most of us being happy for any advances made in display technology,
no matter where it comes from.

I just find discussions of "fanboys" and psychological profiling like the above is out of place because it represents so little of the traffic here, and implies there is more of it than there is.

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post #7226 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Why do I have to provide a link to prove the Sonys panels are driven digitally? This is info I have from Sony techs and it is true, and if you need proof find out yourself.

I accept that others like different thing than me I just don´t understand how you guys don´t see the huge difference in sharpness, clarity, dynamics and 3D feel, but I guess you don´t want to see it. I find the JVC X500 to be the best bang for the buck projector right now, but if we see past that I find the Sony to have the best total picture. Why can you not accept that this is my view as I have accepted your, Kris and many others here that the JVC is the best, but I just started this with a comment on the wrong setup of the Sony VW600.

And I must ask you, where have I been overagressive and defensive about this. And I have tried many times to say we just need to agree to disagree and leave it with that. I will never be able to convince you JVC guys that the Sony is the better machine.smile.gif

And of corse if you use Darbee at 35% and use a Lumagen and other stuff on the Sony it will also make the Sony better, I know this as I use it on my VW1000 soon to be 1100.cool.gif

I'll be sending an email to Sony technical support to see if they've indeed changed over to digital drivers for the panels. Normally when Sony makes a change like this there is some mention of it and because I haven't read anything of the kind I was just assuming they still drive their panels through analog methods like the ones in the 1080p displays. On to the "aggressiveness" that you asked about; A good example is the first sentence of the post I just quoted.smile.gif

Edit: Found their technical data sheet on the 1000ES. https://docs.sony.com/release/specs/VPLVW1000ES_mksp.pdf
Panels are now driven digitally as you've stated. I wonder if this has to do with why 3D looks better than previous models?

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post #7227 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

And yet, if these people exist I can not recall seeing them here on this forum (at least this projection forum), or highly represented in any way in any of the AVSforums.
What I see are lots of people who really are trying to find the best display for their own criteria, with most of us being happy for any advances made in display technology,
no matter where it comes from.

I just find discussions of "fanboys" and psychological profiling like the above is out of place because it represents so little of the traffic here, and implies there is more of it than there is.

I wasn't specifically referring to this forum but more just "fanboys" in general.
So many are brand blinded because they have loyalty to brand "x" and won't ever consider anything else better no matter what.
Ford, Chev, Dodge etc.
I used to buy only Sony no matter what but eventually came to realize most of the time my money could get me more with other brands.

I also made it clear that it wasn't everybody and was just my opinion.

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post #7228 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

What I find funny about "NEEDING" to use RC on the Sony for a "proper" comparison is that this makes for an improper comparison. If we want to look specifically at native performance of the light/optical engine why would we enable something that artificially enhances subjective sharpness? If RC is needed to give that "clearer and sharper" image Andreas and DJ are spouting I think that kind of debunks their stance on why the Sony is a better machine. I think the proper thing to say then is that the Sony has better software. biggrin.gif

I also find it odd that they didn't notice the DI pumping issue with the Sony. Like you and others said, it was the FIRST thing that jumped out at me when demo'ing the 600ES. It's no where near the previous performance standard Sony has set with it's 1080p units. I think Sony really wanted people to think the contrast performance was closer to the 1000ES so it set the DI to be over aggressive to make the gap more narrow.

The differences in shadow detail seen could be made non-existent if you spent some time with a gamma calibration. So I see this as a moot point. The Sony is an excellent machine, there's no doubt about that. It's far better suited for larger screens and is ready for 4K content when it comes in full blast. Until then, I have to agree with Kris, from what I saw with 1080p material the JVC is the clear winner.



Seegs108

1: Kris talked about getting the projectors, to look best possible

2. The 4K projectors NEEDS to scale a incoming 1080P signal, no matter what, so if you use the simplest and worst scaling, it going to look less than optimal ( and not a good / very fair comparison IMO)

3: I never talked about wich projector is "a better machine" only that if you want to compare and conclude something, you need to "optimize" both, the best you can ( and I think, Kris, DarinP has the same spirit or thought - no?

4: Its only your postulate, that a gamma calibration can make the shadow detail difference non-existent - not a fact, and as I understod it, both maschine where calibreted ( the Sony by TJN - with a very strange contrast setting at 71 and contrast enhancher on low or middle - IMO and no one seems to can explain, why it was adjusted like that - someone please inlight me smile.gif

- IMO if you use the "contrast enhancher" the detail ( 17-20 ) near the Black level ( 16 ) gets closer to Black ( just like setting the gamma at 2.6 ) and then to see the detail Down there Again, you would need to raise the brightness control 1-2 click up ( and thereby risk to raise the Black level 16 , higher then necessary ?

so my question about that setting was to understand, if there was something I did not realize (so I could learn), or if that there was an entirely different (reasonable) explanation as to why it was chosen one? - Generally take both Kris & TJN indeed a purist approach to settings - meaning that the less that is used by unnecessary digital proccesing / manipulation, the better - I absolutely agree with BTW - so why activate that ?


5: Im fine with your conclusion on which projector, you prefer - I just dont like, when someone says, that Their conclusion is a fact, when others clearly see something different ( especially when the comparison (settings - for whatever reason), maybe is not quite optimal for them both )

6: Sorry, but I didnt see any pumping issue with the 500es, so either the material has been wrong, or I'm not as sensitive as you or my makine set "better / different" than the one you saw


Funny enought, when Cinema4Home did a test ( and allmost everbody in here normally agree on, that Ekki and his team is very thorough, objective and credible - or not ? ) with the X500 / 500ES -

Throughout the test were discarded because the images were not the 100% similar picture frame rolleyes.gif - and so had all the pictures [/B juggled to show Sony'en alleged picture quality. It Even went so fa,r that some claimed, it was because they "sold" Sony projectors (AFAIK they sell "calibration versions" to dealers, but they also make that for JVC projectors - so it was / is a bad point.

Overall, I think there is a little too much fanboy / brand loyalty to one or another manufacturer, in many opinions in here (maybe I even sounds like or is guilty of such redface.gif, but it is definitely not my opinion or position )

Precisely for this reason, we are so many in here, who enjoy, respect and like for instance. Zoombie10K:) "shootouts" - right?

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post #7229 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I'll be sending an email to Sony technical support to see if they've indeed changed over to digital drivers for the panels. Normally when Sony makes a change like this there is some mention of it and because I haven't read anything of the kind I was just assuming they still drive their panels through analog methods like the ones in the 1080p displays. On to the "aggressiveness" that you asked about; A good example is the first sentence of the post I just quoted.smile.gif

Edit: Found their technical data sheet on the 1000ES. https://docs.sony.com/release/specs/VPLVW1000ES_mksp.pdf
Panels are now driven digitally as you've stated. I wonder if this has to do with why 3D looks better than previous models?

So maby you will trust me later when I say something, I would never claim the VW1000/1100 or the VW500/600 har digital drivers if I did not know it to be true. I think an apology is needed here.

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post #7230 of 9103 Old 04-01-2014, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

wow, I disappear for a day or 2 and a good old fashion JVC vs. Sony 150+ post war breaks out. nice. biggrin.gif



we got bored us and your thread had gone a little stuck wink.gifbiggrin.gif

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