Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 244 - AVS Forum
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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014
Geof's Avatar Geof 09:26 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post


Obviously if you just enable all this extra processing on the Sony, it's going to look better as well. I think we're just trying to see what the JVC can do from a 2K standpoint to make it look as close to 4K (psuedo 4K) as possible (not to try to make the Sony look worse, but just to see how close us JVC owners can get to the Sony with some help from some fancy software tricks/algorithms). We all understand that the Sony is the clear native resolution and sharpness king here due to the panels it's using. I think in order for this to be fair for the JVC, the Sony shouldn't get the same processing turned on else it will obviously be better. We're all just trying to see how well the JVC competes with a little extra help from Clear Black, e-Shift3, Darbee, 4K scaling, RC (if like me you have the Sony AVR), etc... biggrin.gif
I don't understand this logic. Any owner who buys a projector is going to set it up to give the best PQ possible (it not like anyone would say hey yeah this setting makes images jump off the screen but I'm not going to do that eek.gif ). If the object is to demonstrate the best PQ possible in a projector then one must set it up that way. And if you're comparing (or trying to compare) two projectors it makes no sense to intentionally set one up so it does not show it's best. That is why Kris re-eximanined the VW600 (although he did not intentionally set the Sony "incorrectly the first time thru). If both are not set up to yield the best possible PQ then why bother comparing them?

Geof's Avatar Geof 09:32 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Only if it was that simple. Saying something that you do not have it better, is usually a huge debate. I got so many replies negative from saying a reviewer liked a projector over the 1000ES and even more by saying I could live with my old RS55 over a 1000ES. For some reason, who ever pays a lot for a Sony gets very upset at a much cheaper JVC.
Forget about Sony owners. Who cares who owns what. You buy the best you can afford, or are willing to spend on a projector and live with it. Nothing any Sony owner says is going to affect images on your JVC (or vice versa). Malaysia is not going to suddenly find a missing aircraft if Sony and JVC owners agree or disagree, just be happy you weren't on the plane and let the comments roll off your back.
Mr. Hatcher's Avatar Mr. Hatcher 09:43 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

,
The image seen is with the oppo 103D darbee on both 35%-37% do not remember. And ,eshift to 4 K is on on auto. so not similar at all after what I see. And if you had the hw55 the vw500 is a totally different and also totally different RC. This is not to try to make one look better I have today the x500 and the vw1000 for in the same cinema. And I love them both. I do side by side tests to find the image I like the best and pick that to watch movies . And you are right really really dark stuff the jvc looks best. But after what I see the sony get on par just with some light. Then my vw1000.
This is the fact for me. And the pictures do not lie hehe

Try this if you want and/or have the chance one day (would be interesting to see the outcome none-the-less). And remember, I'm not trying to make the JVC look better than the Sony, I could care less which looks better since they both have their pros and cons and are both amazing machines. I'm just interested to see how close we can get the JVC to the sharpness of the Sony using a few algorithms. Keep the source content 1080p and don't enable the same software enhancements on the Sony as you do for the JVC. I know it seems unfair to the Sony, but we all know if you enable all the same settings for both, that the Sony will be sharper. tongue.gif

Oppo BDP-103D (Darbee = OFF, 4K scaling = ON) --> Sony VW500/VW600 or VW1000/1100 (RC = ON, and whatever other settings you prefer)

Oppo BDP-103D (Darbee = ON 35%, 4K scaling = ON) --> Sony STR-DN1040 AVR (RC 4K scaling = ON) I know you don't have this, but if you can add it into the chain, please try it out --> JVC X500/X700 (e-Shift3 = ON, Clear Black = ON, Manual Iris = 0, AutoIris2, and whatever other settings you prefer)
Mr. Hatcher's Avatar Mr. Hatcher 09:51 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I don't understand this logic. Any owner who buys a projector is going to set it up to give the best PQ possible (it not like anyone would say hey yeah this setting makes images jump off the screen but I'm not going to do that eek.gif ). If the object is to demonstrate the best PQ possible in a projector then one must set it up that way. And if you're comparing (or trying to compare) two projectors it makes no sense to intentionally set one up so it does not show it's best. That is why Kris re-eximanined the VW600 (although he did not intentionally set the Sony "incorrectly the first time thru). If both are not set up to yield the best possible PQ then why bother comparing them?

Just to see if you can make the JVC (with a little software help) get close to the Sony's native sharpness (without the extra software help). That's the only reason I suggested this...NOT to put both in best mode. Because the Sony has better optics and higher res panels. It's an obvious disadvantage for the JVC so why make the Sony ever better for the comparison? This is like comparing a 5" 480p mobile phone screen to a 5" 1080p mobile phone screen and asking hey, which one looks sharper guys? My logic is to try to help the JVC (with native 2K panels) look comparable to the Sony (with native 4K panels). Do you understand? You don't have to like the comparison, it just seemed like a fun test to me.
blee0120's Avatar blee0120 09:53 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Forget about Sony owners. Who cares who owns what. You buy the best you can afford, or are willing to spend on a projector and live with it. Nothing any Sony owner says is going to affect images on your JVC (or vice versa). Malaysia is not going to suddenly find a missing aircraft if Sony and JVC owners agree or disagree, just be happy you weren't on the plane and let the comments roll off your back.

I could care less what anybody says. I never argued with one person who said the Sony was the best projector ever. But many want to debate, and that's why they come to this forum. If Kris review or others would just been replied with a thanks and nice review, we would not have these debates going on monthly about JVC and Sony. For 1.5 years, I owned either, but I just picked up a RS49 because of what I have been hearing. One day, I'll get around to watch the projector
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering 10:08 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

I find it difficult to understand how Kris and others don't see the big difference in sharpness, clarity, dynamics and 3D feeling in 2D.
I took some pictures when I did the test with the x500 and the vw500 to try to show the difference in sharpness and all the other things in my home theatre.
Calibrated upp to the same standard, with the same gamma 2.35.
I tried to make it as close as possible to what I see on the screen.

All pictures are untouched. Played from Oppo 103D with darbee on 35-37% on the jvc e shift enabled on auto

X500




Vw500




X500




Vw500




X500




Vw500




X500




Vw500


I certainly saw an increase in sharpness and fine detail with the Sony once I engaged RC. Small details looked a lot better than before and the resolve was better than the JVC. Adding the Darbee processing to the JVC got it close, but the Sony still had the edge. I use the EXACT same scene from Oblivion (when he waters the plant) as one of the scenes for my wife to comment on. I saw some differences in sharpness and fine detail there, she thought they looked about the same. What movie is the cathedral from? I don't recognize that (Skyfall??). I will look at the life raft sequence from Pacific Rim tonight though. The problem with Pacific Rim is it is a nice mix of very dark and very bright content so if one was to use that movie as a reference to compare these two projectors I think the overwhelming majority would choose the JVC. There are way too many scenes when the on/off contrast pulls WAY ahead with the JVC for that one.

Also, when you had eshift on for the JVC, was the Oppo scaling to 4K or just outputting 1080p? I will look at these clips tonight. I am going to try and have a few other friends over to get some other opinions as well.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 10:11 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Kris and others could also ask how you don't see what they see.wink.gif

If we all step back for a minute it is clear that people see what is important to them in an image. Kris has acknowledged that the changes to settings you suggested made a big difference to what he sees and DarinP was very clear in his original post what is most important to them in images.

Your screen shots are compelling and to my eyes represent the differences from memory that I saw between the 4910 and the VW600 I saw last weekend but that is just my eyes.

I will also give you the same advice I gave Andreas21, ignore the fanboys. They are not here to discuss image quality, they are here to try to validate their purchase choice. You can tell who they are by searching for the phrase "all the Sony owners..." or "all the JVC owners..." wink.gif

We do see what they see to some degree, we say the JVC destroys the Sony in very low APL scenes, but these scenes don´t come very often when watching normal mivie content. If you want you can only test with this kind of material and the JVC would destroy any projector on the market, but I know Kris did not do this but it is possible. And you can also turn tis the other way, it is not difficult to test with scenes where the Sony is easy the clear winner. What I find strange is that Kris and others don´t see the clear difference in clarity, sharpness, 3D feel and dynamics, but I think I can live with that. But don´t say I did not try.wink.gif
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 10:15 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I certainly saw an increase in sharpness and fine detail with the Sony once I engaged RC. Small details looked a lot better than before and the resolve was better than the JVC. Adding the Darbee processing to the JVC got it close, but the Sony still had the edge. I use the EXACT same scene from Oblivion (when he waters the plant) as one of the scenes for my wife to comment on. I saw some differences in sharpness and fine detail there, she thought they looked about the same. What movie is the cathedral from? I don't recognize that (Skyfall??). I will look at the life raft sequence from Pacific Rim tonight though. The problem with Pacific Rim is it is a nice mix of very dark and very bright content so if one was to use that movie as a reference to compare these two projectors I think the overwhelming majority would choose the JVC. There are way too many scenes when the on/off contrast pulls WAY ahead with the JVC for that one.

Also, when you had eshift on for the JVC, was the Oppo scaling to 4K or just outputting 1080p? I will look at these clips tonight. I am going to try and have a few other friends over to get some other opinions as well.

The clip is from the LG 4K demo downscaled to 1080p.

But when you say you see this, don´t you see the difference in clarity, 3D feel (depth) and dynamics. I find these differences to be quite big like the difference in sharpness as you can see in these pictures, the difference is a lot bigger on a 110" screen.

Darbee on the JVC gets it closer, but not close and the problem here is you can add Darbee to the Sony as well. Didrik just said these pictures is taken with Darbee at 35-37% on both split from a Oppo 103D. The Oppo is on 1080p if you use Source Direct of 4K you can not use the Darbee.
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering 10:21 AM 04-02-2014
Well there is a problem, the Oppo doesn't do Darbee processing to both split, it only applies ANY processing to HDMI 1 out, HDMI 2 out is a pure feed. You can't compare them both with the same processing unless you were running two players.

I definitely saw a difference in clarity (talked about this a lot with The International) but I thought depth was about the same with a slight edge to the Sony but dynamics ALWAYS favored the JVC regardless of what type of image it was (dark or bright). And I was comparing on a 120" screen.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 10:30 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Well there is a problem, the Oppo doesn't do Darbee processing to both split, it only applies ANY processing to HDMI 1 out, HDMI 2 out is a pure feed. You can't compare them both with the same processing unless you were running two players.

I definitely saw a difference in clarity (talked about this a lot with The International) but I thought depth was about the same with a slight edge to the Sony but dynamics ALWAYS favored the JVC regardless of what type of image it was (dark or bright). And I was comparing on a 120" screen.

That is true I did not think of that, when we tested at my place we turned off all external prosessing and only used the internal in the projectors. But I know DJ Dee has an external Darbee so he might have used that on the JVC, I think he knows the Darbee does not work in the second HDMI output on the JVC.

I find it strange as I think the dynamics almost always favored the Sony except from very dark scenes. Did you test with the starfield/snowfield in the beginning of Rise Of The Guardians and the starfield in Pirates Of The Caribbean At Worlds End. With the VW1000 theses images the VW1000 totally destroyes the JVC and the VW500 is very close.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 10:32 AM 04-02-2014
I think that one would want to arrange for any projector to look the best that it can, with no restrictions.

PS Of course it will likely be that which one looks better will depend on the type of material being projected.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 10:34 AM 04-02-2014
[quohte name="Kris Deering" url="/t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/7290#post_24559941"]
I certainly saw an increase in sharpness and fine detail with the Sony once I engaged RC. Small details looked a lot better than before and the resolve was better than the JVC. Adding the Darbee processing to the JVC got it close, but the Sony still had the edge. I use the EXACT same scene from Oblivion (when he waters the plant) as one of the scenes for my wife to comment on. I saw some differences in sharpness and fine detail there, she thought they looked about the same. What movie is the cathedral from? I don't recognize that (Skyfall??). I will look at the life raft sequence from Pacific Rim tonight though. The problem with Pacific Rim is it is a nice mix of very dark and very bright content so if one was to use that movie as a reference to compare these two projectors I think the overwhelming majority would choose the JVC. There are way too many scenes when the on/off contrast pulls WAY ahead with the JVC for that one.

Also, when you had eshift on for the JVC, was the Oppo scaling to 4K or just outputting 1080p? I will look at these clips tonight. I am going to try and have a few other friends over to get some other opinions as well.[/quote]

Darbee is added here in my pic. And I use 1080P on the oppo 103D. I feel that the oppo upp scaling to 4K is not good, but that's my opinion.
You got the Europe movie from me I understand that you did not use it. So you have it. I see big differences on my 7 inc I pad so the differences are not small.
Therefor find it strange that you can say 98% equal on sharpness. I do can't say in % how much better the sharpness is! impossible to say. But I can say that it's much better.
And about the pacific rim depend what you look for, if you just look for black yes if you watch the total image, maybe you see something else. I do not have the vw500 here now only the vw1000. And you forget very fast, but when I have the pictures I remember those scenes. And I remember that the vw1000 was much better with black down to zero apl.
I have many more pictures, but just to state the point that there is quite big differences, not just in sharpness, but also debt, 3D feeling in 2D and the most important one clarity.
If you don't see it , can't help you, but you have some nice proof here so you can think twice before you tell everyone here what you think. Now they have a indication of what you see.
Yes black black kicks the sonys ass, but with just some light in the scene the vw500 gets equal or maybe even better black when more light in the scene.
And

the jvc x500 is the best buy in 2014 when we talk about price and what you get. It's a dam god PJ. And that's why I got that one also.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 10:35 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

That is true I did not think of that, when we tested at my place we turned off all external prosessing and only used the internal in the projectors. But I know DJ Dee has an external Darbee so he might have used that on the JVC, I think he knows the Darbee does not work in the second HDMI output on the JVC.

I find it strange as I think the dynamics almost always favored the Sony except from very dark scenes. Did you test with the starfield/snowfield in the beginning of Rise Of The Guardians and the starfield in Pirates Of The Caribbean At Worlds End. With the VW1000 theses images the VW1000 totally destroyes the JVC and the VW500 is very close.

Correct darbee on both
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering 10:36 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

That is true I did not think of that, when we tested at my place we turned off all external prosessing and only used the internal in the projectors. But I know DJ Dee has an external Darbee so he might have used that on the JVC, I think he knows the Darbee does not work in the second HDMI output on the JVC.

I find it strange as I think the dynamics almost always favored the Sony except from very dark scenes. Did you test with the starfield/snowfield in the beginning of Rise Of The Guardians and the starfield in Pirates Of The Caribbean At Worlds End. With the VW1000 theses images the VW1000 totally destroyes the JVC and the VW500 is very close.

Didn't look at those but we looked at the starfield in the beginning of Pacific Rim and the starfields in AVP2: Requiem and the differences were staggering. The Sony looks downright awful in comparison. My wife thought I was joking at first and had put the Sony in some weird mode. Darin and Steve thought the same.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 10:38 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Well there is a problem, the Oppo doesn't do Darbee processing to both split, it only applies ANY processing to HDMI 1 out, HDMI 2 out is a pure feed. You can't compare them both with the same processing unless you were running two players.

I definitely saw a difference in clarity (talked about this a lot with The International) but I thought depth was about the same with a slight edge to the Sony but dynamics ALWAYS favored the JVC regardless of what type of image it was (dark or bright). And I was comparing on a 120" screen.

You are 100% correct needed extra darbee on out 2 on the oppo. And I have.
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering 10:40 AM 04-02-2014
The Oppo 4K scaling is better than eshift. eshift adds some noticeable issues including moire to the image. But I don't think that is going to make a lot of difference in these comparisons. I have the clip you sent and will use it tonight when I restart into my comparison. I will also look at the scenes that Andreas mentioned (Rise of the Guardians/POTC).
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar HoustonHoyaFan 10:40 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

We do see what they see to some degree, we say the JVC destroys the Sony in very low APL scenes, but these scenes don´t come very often when watching normal mivie content. If you want you can only test with this kind of material and the JVC would destroy any projector on the market, but I know Kris did not do this but it is possible. And you can also turn tis the other way, it is not difficult to test with scenes where the Sony is easy the clear winner. What I find strange is that Kris and others don´t see the clear difference in clarity, sharpness, 3D feel and dynamics, but I think I can live with that. But don´t say I did not try.wink.gif
I will continue to try to bridge the gap. wink.gif I think Kris sees a lot of the same things and has acknowledge them:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

So I had the chance to do some more comparisons with the X700 and 600ES last night. I would like to extend a big thanks to Andreas and DJ for pointing out the RC stuff to me, it made a substantial difference in perceived image quality with the Sony..

"I couldn't get the Sony anywhere near the low light performance of the JVC and the difference is too dramatic to ignore. Obvioulsy this may not be as much of an issue for those that use their projectors for a lot of different material. If I was a guy that watched a lot of TV and sports I may have a different opinion as this material doesn't demand that type of contrast performance"

"The Sony definitely looked better with a few clips (The International was the most obvious)".

Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 10:44 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Didn't look at those but we looked at the starfield in the beginning of Pacific Rim and the starfields in AVP2: Requiem and the differences were staggering. The Sony looks downright awful in comparison. My wife thought I was joking at first and had put the Sony in some weird mode. Darin and Steve thought the same.

Try to count seconds in a movie that is like that.smile.gif
stanger89's Avatar stanger89 10:49 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I find it strange as I think the dynamics almost always favored the Sony except from very dark scenes. Did you test with the starfield/snowfield in the beginning of Rise Of The Guardians and the starfield in Pirates Of The Caribbean At Worlds End. With the VW1000 theses images the VW1000 totally destroyes the JVC and the VW500 is very close.

It sounds to me like your gamma calibrations are different. This sounds a lot like the debates that raged re JVC vs DLP. Many would report that in all but the darkest scenes a DLP would have better pop/dynamics vs a JVC, but then others would point out that the JVCs needed some "advanced" calibration and with proper gamma/grayscale calibration they would have equal or better dynamics in most scenes.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 10:50 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

The Oppo 4K scaling is better than eshift. eshift adds some noticeable issues including moire to the image. But I don't think that is going to make a lot of difference in these comparisons. I have the clip you sent and will use it tonight when I restart into my comparison. I will also look at the scenes that Andreas mentioned (Rise of the Guardians/POTC).

I did not like it at first, but I will try that tonight just to see what I feel. I would think that the scaling in the vw500 is better than the oppo.
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering 10:54 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

Try to count seconds in a movie that is like that.smile.gif

A movie like what? AVP2? The whole damn movie is a dark pit. Pacific Rim? Again another movie that is a contrast reference and dark A LOT. We're not talking about seconds. These are NOT movies I would use to show off the Sony. How many movies have long scenes with crazy amounts of detail like that cathedral you showed earlier, or that LG clip? You want to talk about seconds?? Plus with these 4K demo clips they pander to high detail, little to no motion, and bright images. It was the same crap we saw when HDTV came out with their Japanese gardens, close ups of snakes and bowls of fruti. None of that stuff looks even REMOTELY like movies so they have absolutely no bearing at all to me on the material I'm actually going to watch with these projectors. Demo clips play to strenghts and strengths alone.

Oblivion is a great movie to show off the Sony but there are still a LOT of scenes the JVC pulls WAY ahead in. This is the crux, when the Sony pulls ahead it is a marginal increase in performance, more subtleties like fine detail and how clean the image will look. When the JVC pulls ahead, the difference is enormous with darker scenes, low APL and blackouts. So in my viewing so far I can get the JVC VERY close to the Sony with material that favors the Sony (short of 4K) but I can't get the Sony even remotely close to the JVC with the material that favors the JVC, maybe 60% of the way at best. And that is hard to ignore.
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar HoustonHoyaFan 11:00 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Oblivion is a great movie to show off the Sony but there are still a LOT of scenes the JVC pulls WAY ahead in.
When you say pulls WAY ahead you mean has more contrast?
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 11:01 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

A movie like what? AVP2? The whole damn movie is a dark pit. Pacific Rim? Again another movie that is a contrast reference and dark A LOT. We're not talking about seconds. These are NOT movies I would use to show off the Sony. How many movies have long scenes with crazy amounts of detail like that cathedral you showed earlier, or that LG clip? You want to talk about seconds?? Plus with these 4K demo clips they pander to high detail, little to no motion, and bright images. It was the same crap we saw when HDTV came out with their Japanese gardens, close ups of snakes and bowls of fruti. None of that stuff looks even REMOTELY like movies so they have absolutely no bearing at all to me on the material I'm actually going to watch with these projectors. Demo clips play to strenghts and strengths alone.

Oblivion is a great movie to show off the Sony but there are still a LOT of scenes the JVC pulls WAY ahead in. This is the crux, when the Sony pulls ahead it is a marginal increase in performance, more subtleties like fine detail and how clean the image will look. When the JVC pulls ahead, the difference is enormous with darker scenes, low APL and blackouts. So in my viewing so far I can get the JVC VERY close to the Sony with material that favors the Sony (short of 4K) but I can't get the Sony even remotely close to the JVC with the material that favors the JVC, maybe 60% of the way at best. And that is hard to ignore.

It's difficult for me to say now because I do not have the vw500 here anymore. On the vw1000 pacific rim is a Sony demo movie and I use it every time.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 11:02 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

When you say pulls WAY ahead you mean has more contrast?

He thinks black
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 11:24 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

A movie like what? AVP2? The whole damn movie is a dark pit. Pacific Rim? Again another movie that is a contrast reference and dark A LOT. We're not talking about seconds. These are NOT movies I would use to show off the Sony. How many movies have long scenes with crazy amounts of detail like that cathedral you showed earlier, or that LG clip? You want to talk about seconds?? Plus with these 4K demo clips they pander to high detail, little to no motion, and bright images. It was the same crap we saw when HDTV came out with their Japanese gardens, close ups of snakes and bowls of fruti. None of that stuff looks even REMOTELY like movies so they have absolutely no bearing at all to me on the material I'm actually going to watch with these projectors. Demo clips play to strenghts and strengths alone.

Oblivion is a great movie to show off the Sony but there are still a LOT of scenes the JVC pulls WAY ahead in. This is the crux, when the Sony pulls ahead it is a marginal increase in performance, more subtleties like fine detail and how clean the image will look. When the JVC pulls ahead, the difference is enormous with darker scenes, low APL and blackouts. So in my viewing so far I can get the JVC VERY close to the Sony with material that favors the Sony (short of 4K) but I can't get the Sony even remotely close to the JVC with the material that favors the JVC, maybe 60% of the way at best. And that is hard to ignore.

Yes but how many movies is like that. What you say about the JVC has a huge gap to the Sony only goes in very low APL scenes like the beginning of Pacific Rim. The rest of Pacific Rim the Sony is on par or a lot better. If we talk about the VW1000/1100 the gap is even bigger, but that is another story. But I must say this is jus a silly discussion now, you will never make me change my mind and I will never get you to change your mind.

I will go to Didrik in the close future and we can test with AVP2, but then we only have the VW1000 to compare with.
R Harkness's Avatar R Harkness 11:26 AM 04-02-2014
As I wrote after seeing the Sony VW1000 with some of my Blu-Rays, when I had my previous JVC RS55 it often looked so sharp and resolved it had me wondering how the image could look sharper.
Then I saw the Sony playing the same scenes and likely due to the better lens combined with the RC, THEN I saw there is another level of image clarity available. When I got home and put on the same scenes
on my JVC, suddenly they came off as a bit softer and I could notice the slight imprecision vs what I saw on the Sony. (Though, admittedly, the Sony was on a smaller screen than I normally use at home, but I also remember using a smaller image size with the JVC when I got home). This is one of the things that keeps me interested in the Sony projectors.

Now my RS57 strikes me as producing an even clearer image (calibrated, using Clear Black on low) than my RS55. However, if I saw the Sony again it might "re-calibrated" my perception and I'd see the JVC as softer. That's why true side by side comparisons are so valuable.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 11:28 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

The Oppo 4K scaling is better than eshift. eshift adds some noticeable issues including moire to the image. But I don't think that is going to make a lot of difference in these comparisons. I have the clip you sent and will use it tonight when I restart into my comparison. I will also look at the scenes that Andreas mentioned (Rise of the Guardians/POTC).

To me a fair comparison is to only use the internal prosessing and if you use something external use it on both. If JVC has a problem with eshift like moire noise as I have mentioned erlier (this is a problem with all eshift generations) it is in the projector and you can turn it off or have it on and libe with the problem until JVC fixes it and that will never happen.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 11:30 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

As I wrote after seeing the Sony VW1000 with some of my Blu-Rays, when I had my previous JVC RS55 it often looked so sharp and resolved it had me wondering how the image could look sharper.
Then I saw the Sony playing the same scenes and likely due to the better lens combined with the RC, THEN I saw there is another level of image clarity available. When I got home and put on the same scenes
on my JVC, suddenly they came off as a bit softer and I could notice the slight imprecision vs what I saw on the Sony. (Though, admittedly, the Sony was on a smaller screen than I normally use at home, but I also remember using a smaller image size with the JVC when I got home). This is one of the things that keeps me interested in the Sony projectors.

Now my RS57 strikes me as producing an even clearer image (calibrated, using Clear Black on low) than my RS55. However, if I saw the Sony again it might "re-calibrated" my perception and I'd see the JVC as softer. That's why true side by side comparisons are so valuable.


+1

I think you will be surprised if you test with a 1100.smile.gif
R Harkness's Avatar R Harkness 11:38 AM 04-02-2014
When I was torn between getting the Sony or the new JVC my thinking was that whichever way I went it would likely set the tone for future upgrading. Was I ready to give up some black levels for the extra brightness and clarity of the Sony? One "con" to this was that I have always wanted even deeper black levels than the JVC offered, the deeper the better, and I wasn't sure if I could abandon that yet for the pluses of the Sony. But then if I got the Sony I'd probably end up spoiled by the light output and image clarity. And in doing so, if JVC made some advances in black level I'd be envious but "unable" to go back to JVC because by then I'd be used to the virtues of the Sony image, bigger brighter images etc. It seemed like a "no going back" step to go to the Sony in a way.

But I saw the same problem for going with the JVC too: If I purchased a 2014 model to tide me over and the black levels were indeed appreciably improved by the DI, then I may be too spoiled by the even more pronounced difference in contrast between brands to go to the Sony as an upgrade. The reports by people like Kris who seem to share my desire for deep black levels tend to re-enforce I may have been right.

And that does seem to be how things have worked out. I was watching the Sunshine Blu-Ray and the contrast was just ridiculously good for projection, in a way that had me thinking "how could I give this type of contrast performance up?" I'm not sure I can if Sony doesn't do some appreciable increase in contrast in their next 4K projector, though I continue to have Sony on my radar as a future upgrade. If JVC can come out with a somewhat brighter 4K model with similar contrast, that sounds as close to my ideal next-projector upgrade (even lacking the Sony's RC which I bet I'd love) as is possible.

(But then, I'm not always using the largest image size in my system with the JVC, and with the Sony I'm sure I'd use a larger image more often, so to get the very best from the JVC does, IMO, end up with some limitations in screen size).
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 11:55 AM 04-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

As I wrote after seeing the Sony VW1000 with some of my Blu-Rays, when I had my previous JVC RS55 it often looked so sharp and resolved it had me wondering how the image could look sharper.
Then I saw the Sony playing the same scenes and likely due to the better lens combined with the RC, THEN I saw there is another level of image clarity available. When I got home and put on the same scenes
on my JVC, suddenly they came off as a bit softer and I could notice the slight imprecision vs what I saw on the Sony. (Though, admittedly, the Sony was on a smaller screen than I normally use at home, but I also remember using a smaller image size with the JVC when I got home). This is one of the things that keeps me interested in the Sony projectors.

Now my RS57 strikes me as producing an even clearer image (calibrated, using Clear Black on low) than my RS55. However, if I saw the Sony again it might "re-calibrated" my perception and I'd see the JVC as softer. That's why true side by side comparisons are so valuable.

The pictures I took are with Clear Black on low I also think that's the best setting for my JVC
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