Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 250 - AVS Forum
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post #7471 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Did you look at that scene from Cars?

No. I did not. I don't own that disc. I don't watch much animation except for Washington Redskins games.

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post #7472 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:18 AM
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Zombie did you see this irispumping when you tested the VW600?

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post #7473 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

So you think we wold not see the iris pumping if our unit did the same as yours??

When you are explaining hoe it works with the tractor tipping I am almost sure the unit you have has something wrong with the iris, Sony irises in the past is almost non detectable and I have seen this scene on several Sony projectors including the VW1000 (not the 500) and never noticed any pumping.

Honestly, I never put anything past anyone. Don't take it personal. I can't tell you how many times I visit someone with a nice setup and find all kinds of issues that I can't believe they didn't notice. Once I point them out they are like "wow, never noticed that before but I see what you mean!". Everyone is different. But there very well may be a big difference between these two projectors. Or maybe not. Mark is saying he sees the same thing with his 1100ES with the iris in auto full. Without me flying over to Norway the world may never know. Would love to fly over though, I spent a week in Bergen and loved it and spent a few days up in Tromso and loved it. Beautiful country you have there.

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post #7474 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Honestly, I never put anything past anyone. Don't take it personal. I can't tell you how many times I visit someone with a nice setup and find all kinds of issues that I can't believe they didn't notice. Once I point them out they are like "wow, never noticed that before but I see what you mean!". Everyone is different. But there very well may be a big difference between these two projectors. Or maybe not. Mark is saying he sees the same thing with his 1100ES with the iris in auto full. Without me flying over to Norway the world may never know. Would love to fly over though, I spent a week in Bergen and loved it and spent a few days up in Tromso and loved it. Beautiful country you have there.

I am sensitive to irises and I never liked them before iris III on the VW85, and I don´t think Mark says the VW1100 pums like crasy and is unwatchable. I will test the scene in Cars later today and see with the VW1000. Auto Limited on the VW1000 takes away about 30% of the light and much of the dynamics of the picture and makes it dull in comparison with Auto Full or even iris Off on the VW1000 and I don´t know why Mark uses this?

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post #7475 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

Looking at those comparison pictures over and over makes me think the JVC was not focused properly.

Yes, it looks like it is, but it is not as we know how to adjust the focus.eek.gif

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post #7476 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Yes, it looks like it is, but it is not as we know how to adjust the focus.eek.gif

Maybe-Just sayin....
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post #7477 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Yes, it looks like it is, but it is not as we know how to adjust the focus.eek.gif

Talk for yourself how do you focus a PJ hehe
+1
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post #7478 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I am sensitive to irises and I never liked them before iris III on the VW85, and I don´t think Mark says the VW1100 pums like crasy and is unwatchable. I will test the scene in Cars later today and see with the VW1000. Auto Limited on the VW1000 takes away about 30% of the light and much of the dynamics of the picture and makes it dull in comparison with Auto Full or even iris Off on the VW1000 and I don´t know why Mark uses this?

He uses it because he sees the same artifacts. He's already stated this.

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post #7479 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

Talk for yourself how do you focus a PJ hehe
+1

My opinions are totally based on what I see with my eyes. I'm a novice at this, I can be honest about that since my first projector purchase was only 3 years ago and I'm only on #2. Since you guys seem to be the experts, what method do you use for focusing? Especially on the JVC?
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post #7480 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 07:57 AM
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I do not notice much iris pumping either way. I have already explained that I tend to watch the main object in a frame rather than the whole frame. my comments on full are that it tends to screw up the colors and washes things out. The blacks are better but at the expense of the brights. A much less natural or realistic picture, the you are there experience is considerably lessened. now I have a new bulb in my let's call it new 1000/1100ES/11, which is what it says on the box. My screen is small, though its gain is only 1.0. even so I do not miss the extra brightness with auto on full. I think the negatives outweigh the positives of full auto and I don't think its even close.

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post #7481 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 08:42 AM
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Even without the pumping I agree with Mark. It always seemed to dull the image out. Colors look muted, there are no specular highlights. Really bright scenes fair okay but even they seem subdued compared to the JVC (even with the brightness matching). But the pumping in darker scenes is just way too much to ignore. Obviously some scenes are worse than others (the Cars scene is probably the worst I've seen for this) but it is always there to some degree. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive to it because I haven't lived with a dynamic iris like this in a long time, but I don't remember the Planar being this sensitive, and it was the last projector I actually owned with a dynamic iris.

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post #7482 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 09:00 AM
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Dj Dee,

Did you see the same thing as Andreas as far as after brightness matching daylight scenes look like a cloudy day with the JVC as he mentioned here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

When you see a daylight scene on the Sony it looks like a sunny day and when you see the same on the JVC it looks like a cloudy day.
Also, as far as the bridge scene you posted, did you also see much brighter whites with the Sony with that scene even after brightness matching as is shown in your bridge images and the cutouts form there I posted here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/7350#post_24561559

What viewing ratio did you use for most of your testing?

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post #7483 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 09:08 AM
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Please, could somebody show me how to focus my JVC ? mine looks just like the picture I saw in this thread. i knew there was something wrong with it...wink.gif

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post #7484 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef2 View Post

Please, could somebody show me how to focus my JVC ? mine looks just like the picture I saw in this thread. i knew there was something wrong with it...wink.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1514184/jvc-newbies-tips-tricks-and-recommendations-thread

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post #7485 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

Looking at those comparison pictures over and over makes me think the JVC was not focused properly.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't properly focused. However, that's what I thought too when I saw the comparison pictures.
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post #7486 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

He uses it because he sees the same artifacts. He's already stated this.
On the iris pumping, I would also check the Cinema Black Pro Sensitivity menu option if there is one. On the VW95 setting it to Fast can cause an increase in pumping artifacts. I would suggest Recommended or even Slow if the artifacts are severe.
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post #7487 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

On the iris pumping, I would also check the Cinema Black Pro Sensitivity menu option if there is one. On the VW95 setting it to Fast can cause an increase in pumping artifacts. I would suggest Recommended or even Slow if the artifacts are severe.

I didn't see any setting for this in the menu but I remember that from the 95ES when I reviewed it. Maybe something in the factory menu? Anyone know how to access the service menu?

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post #7488 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

How did you brightness match the projectors?
I'm hoping Kris will answer since he is really the one who did it. My memory is that it was with a full screen white with the Sony and the iris on manual. My assumption was that Limited would then limit to that manual position as the most open, but maybe that isn't how it works. I asked whether we could change the most closed position in the service menu (like on some previous Sony projectors) and I recall Kris saying that he thought that control may have been removed.

I recall that when we measured some on/off CR values on the Sony the white reading went up a fair amount with Full auto iris.
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Did you see any scenes where you thought the VW600 looked better?
It had better shadow detail on some stuff as mentioned earlier. It also looked better on some test patterns. On some other test patterns we saw some really strange stuff going from 1080p to 2160p (not the full panel) where there were things like areas with some solid colors and hard edges. I recall a high resolution pattern showing problems and commented that maybe real material doesn't have that much fine detail in general and so not likely to show the problem, but on the flip side if you don't have much fine detail with real material there seems like less opportunity for higher resolution panels to really do everything they can.

--Darin

A question on the patterns and anomalies you were seeing? Would you not need 4K patterns to test the Sony and vice versa for the JVC?

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post #7489 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

A question on the patterns and anomalies you were seeing? Would you not need 4K patterns to test the Sony and vice versa for the JVC?
For testing 4k content on both I think you would want 4k patterns and for testing 1080p content on both you would want 1080p patterns. Since this test was for how each did when fed with 1080p content I think 1080p patterns were appropriate.

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post #7490 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I do not notice much iris pumping either way. I have already explained that I tend to watch the main object in a frame rather than the whole frame. my comments on full are that it tends to screw up the colors and washes things out. The blacks are better but at the expense of the brights. A much less natural or realistic picture, the you are there experience is considerably lessened. now I have a new bulb in my let's call it new 1000/1100ES/11, which is what it says on the box. My screen is small, though its gain is only 1.0. even so I do not miss the extra brightness with auto on full. I think the negatives outweigh the positives of full auto and I don't think its even close.

I noticed the same thing on the 1000 and 1100 motherboard in auto-full, it seems to change the image as you described. This was bugging me so I started poking around in the advanced settings. There is a setting with black detail, I forget the exact name until I see the menu item later, but when I changed it to 'medium', it instantly 'fixed' the image in auto-full and it looks as good as it does when the iris is turned off.

I don't know if this was a topic of conversation in the 1000 thread but I thought someone would have noticed this in the past.
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post #7491 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

A question on the patterns and anomalies you were seeing? Would you not need 4K patterns to test the Sony and vice versa for the JVC?
For testing 4k content on both I think you would want 4k patterns and for testing 1080p content on both you would want 1080p patterns. Since this test was for how each did when fed with 1080p content I think 1080p patterns were appropriate.

--Darin

I seem to recall a conversation in one of the threads (I will need to re-read/find) where someone noticed (and I could confirm with my unit and same test disc) that certain 1080p patterns used with the Sony resulted in some of the same anomalies your describe.

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post #7492 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:30 AM
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Regarding the JVC's DI, yes it manipulates gamma as well and I generally enjoy the result. But a side effect is occasional flicker to certain images where it's as if the gamma software gets "confused" or something. I don't know if the Sony displays such artifacts as well, but if it's not doing aggressive gamma manipulation I'm guessing it does not.
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post #7493 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Here's AVForum's take on how the iris (DI) works in the JVC 700:
There are some issues, but overall I am still a little bit perplexed about the testing conditions they use for different projectors. When I asked whether they could see their screen if the projector was off they said they could. I don't know how much ambient light they have in the room besides the projector. For the Sony HW55 they measured something like 11k:1 with the dynamic iris enabled and remarked on this being a long ways from Sony's claim. I'm not sure if avforums is measuring just the projector or including their room with other lighting though for on/off CR. I looked at cine4home's numbers for last years HW50 and they were way higher with the DI enabled than avforum's numbers for this years model.

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post #7494 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I noticed the same thing on the 1000 and 1100 motherboard in auto-full, it seems to change the image as you described. This was bugging me so I started poking around in the advanced settings. There is a setting with black detail, I forget the exact name until I see the menu item later, but when I changed it to 'medium', it instantly 'fixed' the image in auto-full and it looks as good as it does when the iris is turned off.

I don't know if this was a topic of conversation in the 1000 thread but I thought someone would have noticed this in the past.

Do you guys have Auto Iris on full in reference mode for the vw1000(or 1100)?

Because the default settings for the Cinema 1 mode does include Auto Iris on full too----but I find this yeilds excellent results with a broad range of material.

Wheras watching the same material in reference mode(again with Auto on Full) tends too work better with digitally aquired flicks(Thor,Skyfall,Avengers,Oblivion) than with older 35mm movies(Lord Of The Rings,Matrix ect ect)

I have never seen the VW500 in action but if it does have the equivalent Cinema 1 mode
maybe that might work in a more subtle way with Auto on full(as it does with the 1000 IMHO)
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post #7495 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

I seem to recall a conversation in one of the threads (I will need to re-read/find) where someone noticed (and I could confirm with my unit and same test disc) that certain 1080p patterns used with the Sony resulted in some of the same anomalies your describe.

The 600ES shows some absolutely nasty artifacts with test patterns that I haven't seen on any projector before it. Massive amounts of discoloration plus some other weird stuff. On the AVS 709 disc go into misc patterns and then the resolution pattern set and you'll see what I mean. The JVC looks great with all these, the Sony looks like there is something wrong with the panels. But this doesn't seem to manifest with normal material.

For calibration purposes there is no reason to use 4K patterns. 4K patterns are for checking stuff like scaling, 1:1 pixle mapping, etc. I have a 4K pattern generator so if I wanted to test that sort of thing I could.

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post #7496 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I noticed the same thing on the 1000 and 1100 motherboard in auto-full, it seems to change the image as you described. This was bugging me so I started poking around in the advanced settings. There is a setting with black detail, I forget the exact name until I see the menu item later, but when I changed it to 'medium', it instantly 'fixed' the image in auto-full and it looks as good as it does when the iris is turned off.

I don't know if this was a topic of conversation in the 1000 thread but I thought someone would have noticed this in the past.

+1
With the right settings the Auto Full settings on the VW1000 results in the best picture.

And Kris I think you need to a lot more research before testing projectors and coming with comments on this AVScience forum, and know how to setup the projectors you test. The best setting with Auto Full on the VW1000/1100 results in the clearly best picture and when I read how you say the VW600 iris works I am sure Sony would never release it on the market if it results in it being unwatchable. I know the iris of the VW1000 does not result in this pumping and quote:It always seemed to dull the image out. And with this statement how can you say like the VW600, with all theses artifact and all the other negative thing you say about the VW600 I would hate the projector and never say anything positive about it. Colors look muted, there are no specular highlights. If you see all of this you have set the projector up totally wrong or there is something totally wrong with the VW600. If the iris of the VW1000 showed all these artifacts I would leave it off.

I will test with AVP2 and Cars on my VW1000 and leave the picture in 16x9 to be able to see the black bars and only watch for iris pumping.

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post #7497 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

The 600ES shows some absolutely nasty artifacts with test patterns that I haven't seen on any projector before it. Massive amounts of discoloration plus some other weird stuff. On the AVS 709 disc go into misc patterns and then the resolution pattern set and you'll see what I mean. The JVC looks great with all these, the Sony looks like there is something wrong with the panels. But this doesn't seem to manifest with normal material.

For calibration purposes there is no reason to use 4K patterns. 4K patterns are for checking stuff like scaling, 1:1 pixle mapping, etc. I have a 4K pattern generator so if I wanted to test that sort of thing I could.

I also saw this on the VW500 and I think it is som kind of scalingartifact, the VW1000 does not show this.

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post #7498 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 11:17 AM
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post #7499 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

And Kris I think you need to a lot more research before testing projectors and coming with comments on this AVScience forum, and know how to setup the projectors you test.
Sorry, but this is rather funny coming from somebody who seems to be either pretty clueless about gamma at the low end or wanted the JVC to look worse than it could for their preferences. Everybody has things they don't understand as well as others and so it isn't a crime to not understand some of the fine details of gamma curves, I am just relating this to your accusations against others when you seem to think that if somebody made a JVC come out of black at the lowest end like the Sony then the JVC would have an incorrect gamma while the Sony would have a correct gamma.

We were looking at the VW600 and not the VW1000, so if the iris on full does something different it isn't all that relevant to the projector we were discussing. If there is another setting that works with full on the VW600 to make it not have the issues seen then that is great, but Kris clearly asked you what settings to use and if you actually knew what settings were right with full with the VW600 then you should have said.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #7500 of 8920 Old 04-03-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I noticed the same thing on the 1000 and 1100 motherboard in auto-full, it seems to change the image as you described. This was bugging me so I started poking around in the advanced settings. There is a setting with black detail, I forget the exact name until I see the menu item later, but when I changed it to 'medium', it instantly 'fixed' the image in auto-full and it looks as good as it does when the iris is turned off.

I don't know if this was a topic of conversation in the 1000 thread but I thought someone would have noticed this in the past.

I think you guys need to confirm every setting in the menu is the same (Kris, Andreas & Dj Dee) in order to be sure you are all seeing the same things.

Andreas and/or Dj Dee,

It may be helpful for you to take photos of your projectors settings menu and submenus and post them here or PM them to Kris so he can cross-reference your settings with those of his own. Maybe we can figure out if a simple setting is causing this issue that way. If not, then that variable will be eliminated. It could just be a bad sample, who knows at this point until Kris can review a different unit.
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