Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 253 - AVS Forum
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post #7561 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

It may be a language issue but that is not what you seem to be saying. You are coming off as questioning Kris' professional capabilities and integrity.

A quick review of this thread shows RickAVManiac, RapalloAV, Dj Dee, and you in/home comparing the VW500/600 to the JVC X500/X700 and preferring the Sony. Kris/Darin/Steve preferred the JVC. That is how it has been on AVS since the very first shootouts.

My interest is finding out specifically what the strengths and weaknesses of each projector before I make my own choice.

For the record:

I don't prefer the Sony over the JVC, I have stated that many times!
I have owned both the X900 for three months and now the VW500, they are both amazing projectors I love them both.
But for me the VW500 works better, my screen is 152" scope AT, I need all the light I can muster and only the Sony does that.

However I do miss the blacks I used to get with the X900, but the pluses with the VW500 out way the X900. Big screen heaps of light and detail, but with lesser blacks.....

And an iris that works better...ha!cool.gif
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post #7562 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

My most important parameter is basically whatever is weakest compared to something else to my eyes (although of course I have things that stand out to me more than other things). That is a simplified version, but one parameter can get the most weighting while the projector that is best in it loses the fight. That is one reason we do the comparisons. We most definitely were looking at things like detail because they matter too.

I am really starting to wonder about this brightness matching thing
. I would love to see some measurements of actual values coming off the screen for a daylight scene where Andreas sees the JVC image as looking like it is from a cloudy day compared to the Sony. Might help us get to the bottom of some of the differences seen. Or not.

--Darin




But again, it shows the obvious that the calibration for example. 14FL will not be the "optimal" - if we're talking about getting the "best" image quality appears on screen, no matter which projector brand, we're talking about (or image size, for that matter)
- Because if we accept that the images look as DJ Dee has photographed them, at least at home with DJ Dee - they show clearly that more light output for "better images" even in moderate doses (and moderate screen sizes) and to a projector, which can make for example. 20-25 fL (regardless of brand) rather than example. 10 - 16fL , will clearly by most people to be considered as being "better"


No one, for now, have said that they prefer the slightly fainter image with better black level (when we speak about the projected images in the photos).

Again, an interesting test for you and Kris (?) ( if you still have the 600ES or borrow a 1000ES ) could be, that after comparing them equally kalibretet - adjust one example. 20-40% higher up in light output, and then see, if the result will be the same between them - or Kris's eyes will be "blinded" by the realative moderate light increase (or even better, how Kris's wife, with the even more sensitive eyes, will react to the brighter Picture compared too the other )

Just an idea smile.gif

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post #7563 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Just an idea smile.gif

dj
Do you feel that the VW500/600 on high lamp is better than on low lamp? In some setups I'm sure it would be, but if somebody shot 2 of these projectors side-by-side with one on high lamp and one on low they could conclude that the images would be dingy looking (cloudy looking for daylight scenes) on the low lamp one even though if they watched one projector on low all by itself the images would not look like that. Our eyes have a big ability to adjust their white point.

We can do some of this similar stuff with screens. Put up a higher gain screen next to a lower gain screen and put on daylight scenes. The lower gain screen will tend to not show any white, only gray at the best. That isn't actually the case when using that one screen though, so should we really only test with a brighter reference there? Seegs posted the optical illusion earlier and we are trying to avoid illusions that things will look a certain way by themselves when they won't and I'm sure we aren't doing that perfectly, but we can try to avoid illusions that we know about.

Much of this stuff is great fun to try and I have tried many things in the past with different levels (like different screens). In my room with a 10' wide Da-Lite High Power I'm sure I could get close to 30 ft-lamberts for white to my main seating position from even the JVC. I could test the Sony at 40 ft-l against the JVC at 30 ft-l, but for most stuff I wouldn't want either one to be that bright even though if I put a 40 ft-l white right next to a 30 ft-l white the 30 ft-l one would look gray and I could incorrectly assume that 30 ft-l would look dim.

--Darin
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This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #7564 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Huhh, DJ Dee owns a X500 ! and AFAIK has Andreas owned more JVC´s !?


And if you want to see the " How does a sunny day look like a cloudy day" just go out in the sun and then take sunglasses on cool.gif

Relax:) , its just projectors, not life-threatening things ...... but perhaps life-affirming thing tongue.gif



dj

Why would that be life threatening about that anyways?
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post #7565 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

. I haven't tested the Darbee with the Sony yet, hope to this weekend.

But if you were a prospective US customer for either of these and I told you that the JVC + Darbee would get you 90% of the way to the perceived sharpness of the Sony for about 50% of the cost, this is valid. The Sony + the Darbee probably looks great, but it also just upped the cost even more. I agree for comparisons it isn't valid (which is why I haven't done it for comparisons) but it is a good info point for those considering both but worried about the cost of the Sony in relation to the JVC.

I use RC with the Darbee in my Lumagen with the VW500 Kris, it does look good together. But as you say, in moderation. I don't use any other enhancements.
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post #7566 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Kris you must surly have something wrong with that 600 you have!
After all this debate I went and checked that scene on Cars, over and over and over again, both on FULL (which I only use) and also one LIMITED, they are both exactly the same, NO PUMPING of the iris!
You cant even see the iris move, its impossible to see anything.

The iris on my VW500 is magnificent, its the best auto iris I have ever seen or had, and I owned the X900 before the VW500.

Maybe the USA models have something odd with them, or yours must defiantly be faulty.

The VW500 auto iris of mine is virtually invisible, the only time I may ever see it is on credits with white titles on a black background. And I tell you its far less obvious than what my X900 was, and that is a fact. My X900 used to jump all over the place with white credits on black.

Now Im only talking of the iris here, there is nothing in my comments which projector is the best, they both have there strengths in certain areas. I say Sony for big screens, JVC for smaller screens, especially after been there done that.

Thank you for checking, I did the same with my VW1000 and no pumping the iris barley moved at all during the scene. And I also checked AVP2 and this is the first movie I have seen where the Iris on the VW1000 pumped in more than one scene, I watched the darkest scenes and I think it pumped about 5-6 times in them. I think this is a movie that would look better for the most part on the JVC, but what a bad movie and the picture quality is really bad.smile.gif

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post #7567 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

I use RC with the Darbee in my Lumagen with the VW500 Kris, it does look good together. But as you say, in moderation. I don't use any other enhancements.

I also use the darbee in my Oppo 105D with my VW1000 as well as RC and I use darbee at 35%. And I have said many times before darbee and RC is two very different algorythms and does not do the same, it can look a bit like the same, but it is not.

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post #7568 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Very interesting. Well guess it is back to work than! As I mentioned before, I am going to do a full factory reset and see if that makes any difference. Maybe something Tom or Sony did to the PJ tweaked something. Thanks for the feedback!!!

Yes Kris there just must be something wrong here, I hate that pumping look I have seen on some projectors but I just cant make it happen on my VW500 I have in NZ. Is it possible the VW500 could even be a bit different to a VW600, at the end of the day I would have thought they would be the same????rolleyes.gif

By the way Kris, I do think you have been great in persevering with all this pumping iris debate and still willing to try and get to the bottom of it.

If everyone was patient and more constructive we all might learn something from the iris issue, I for sure would love to find out.
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post #7569 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

I seem to recall a conversation in one of the threads (I will need to re-read/find) where someone noticed (and I could confirm with my unit and same test disc) that certain 1080p patterns used with the Sony resulted in some of the same anomalies your describe.

The 600ES shows some absolutely nasty artifacts with test patterns that I haven't seen on any projector before it. Massive amounts of discoloration plus some other weird stuff. On the AVS 709 disc go into misc patterns and then the resolution pattern set and you'll see what I mean. The JVC looks great with all these, the Sony looks like there is something wrong with the panels. But this doesn't seem to manifest with normal material.

For calibration purposes there is no reason to use 4K patterns. 4K patterns are for checking stuff like scaling, 1:1 pixle mapping, etc. I have a 4K pattern generator so if I wanted to test that sort of thing I could.

here is a link to some shots of the oddity a 1080p pattern was causing. Same disk you mentioned..

In search of video bliss...
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post #7570 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:30 PM
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I, on the other hand, am a mature clueless person. smile.gif

My cheap Ethernet over power stopped working after two days and pressing the connect buttons didn't help. I am clueless.

Does anybody have a recommendation for the best one available? Give me a clue. Thank You.

Thanks for all the suggestions, after careful consideration and one of my installers showing up at my house, I decided to run two Cat 6 lines, one for the projector and one for the puck. now all I have to do is terminate them and test and then the puck should work. Then we will see if the audio extractor works. And now back to our usual programming, as the world turns.

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post #7571 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I tried to explain why I think we should consider this factor, but also try to separate it from other factors here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/7410#post_24562146

I thought Drexler had a good example here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/projector-mini-shootout-thread-2013-2014/7440#post_24563041

As far as 16 fl vs 19 fl, I could show you how if you put those up at the same time next to each other the 16 fl will not look white if we were in the same place. I made a test sequence mentioned earlier for doing some testing related to the most CR we can see at once, but one of the things the sequencer shows is that when something looks white and all of a sudden part of it goes even brighter the part that didn't can change from white to gray to our eyes even though it didn't get any dimmer.

--Darin

Yup, and I've tested this myself after a long discussion about screen types with Darin and others earlier in this thread. Those damn illusions almost drove me mad! tongue.gif But in the end, I understood this stuff A LOT better...I think. But still lots to learn... rolleyes.gif

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post #7572 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Quote Andreas21 ( see post 7388 - three post BEFORE yours smile.gif ):

"Put the Darbee on the Sony and the gap is the same again. I don´t know why you try to say this all the time. YOU CAN NOT test projectors side by side and use external prosessing on one and not the other."

Quote end.


Besides that - he wanted to compare TWO projectors not external devises wink.gif

dj

I didn't mention anything about using a Darbee while comparing any projector.
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post #7573 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Yes Kris there just must be something wrong here, I hate that pumping look I have seen on some projectors but I just cant make it happen on my VW500 I have in NZ. Is it possible the VW500 could even be a bit different to a VW600, at the end of the day o would have thought they would be the same????rolleyes.gif

By the way Kris, I do think you have been great in persevering with all this pumping iris debate and still willing to try and get to the bottom of it.

If everyone was patient and more constructive we all might learn something from the iris issue, I for sure would love to find out.

I seriously doubt they are different. If the VW500 is better and cheaper, then we got the short straw over here, LOL! wink.gif

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post #7574 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

But for someone who writes reviews how do you tell someone what the positive attributes are? Everyone is going to have a different room, screen material, screen size, ect. Brightness matching seems to be the best way to stay objective when making performance claims. It's only when brightness matched that you can say definitively that Projector A is truly sharper than Projector B or Projector A has certain color attributes over Projector B. I do see your point about trying to find what would be best for personal situations but I just don't see how that can be done for someone trying to professionally review a projector that he/she doesn't plan on owning in the first place.



But the same can be said about the contrast - so if you want to compare the sharpness of example. lenses - as to remove the subjectivity, one would also need to adjusts the contrast ratio of them down / up, too they were similar to, again not being "fooled" by other parameters, than the quality lense - right ?


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post #7575 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Even if I am not one of them I can answer what I see and yes the motion is better this year and JVC has even got the CMD to work ok this time.smile.gif
Thanks!

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post #7576 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Thank you for checking, I did the same with my VW1000 and no pumping the iris barley moved at all during the scene. And I also checked AVP2 and this is the first movie I have seen where the Iris on the VW1000 pumped in more than one scene, I watched the darkest scenes and I think it pumped about 5-6 times in them. I think this is a movie that would look better for the most part on the JVC, but what a bad movie and the picture quality is really bad.smile.gif

Andreas,

You should try out the Sunshine BD. That's a really nice torture test disk for a DI. And just a good movie in general, IMO. smile.gif

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post #7577 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

Andreas,

You should try out the Sunshine BD. That's a really nice torture test disk for a DI. And just a good movie in general, IMO. smile.gif

I have that BD and I have seen it some years ago, but not on the VW1000. Any particular scenes I should try?

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post #7578 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

Low lamp on my X700 is plenty bright in 0 lux of ambient light. High lamp in 0 lux of ambient light causes eye fatigue faster "for me" when continually switching between high and low APL content. Of course this doesn't happen with "all" content. It's kind of like sitting closer than the recommended seating-distance-to-screen-size-ratio. When I test this and I'm unable to comfortably fit all of the image into my field-of-view without using my peripheral vision, I get eye fatigue faster as well due to my eyes having to constantly look around to see the entire image clearly. eek.gif

Overall, low lamp looks more realistic/dynamic and believable to me as well. cool.gif


smile.gif Actully, everbody in here, tell all the time, that most movies has in generel, a very low APL ( 5 -10 % !? ) image through out the movie - so you really should get some higher light output, because it will very rarely get over 10-20% APL image wink.gif


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post #7579 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I have that BD and I have seen it some years ago, but not on the VW1000. Any particular scenes I should try?

Oh, I'm not sure which scenes. I just use that film to show off my theater from time to time, but we just watch the whole movie. There's lots of excellent high contrast scenes throughout the film.

Watchmen is another go-to for high contrast scenes.

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post #7580 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:57 PM
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Oh, I'm not sure which scenes. I just use that film to show off my theater from time to time, but we just watch the whole movie. There's lots of excellent high contrast scenes throughout the film.

Watchmen is another go-to for high contrast scenes.

High contrast scenes is no problem with the iris of the VW1000, it is near dark scenes with almost no info it can pump. I have seen it pump in 4-5 movies now in the 2+ years I have owned it and over 1000 hours on the two different units I have owned. I have the Watchmen BD and I have seen it acouple of times on my VW1000 and the iris never pump during that movie, great movie by the way. I am looking forward to watch the Ultimate cut I bought last year and I am saving it for later.smile.gif

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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

smile.gif Actully, everbody in here, tell all the time, that most movies has in generel, a very low APL ( 5 -10 % !? ) image through out the movie - so you really should get some higher light output, because it will very rarely get over 10-20% APL image wink.gif


dj

To each their own. This is where brightness comes down to personal preference like many other factors of overall PQ. That's why I said "for me". wink.gif

I should've been more specific. I was speaking mainly for interscene contrast, not intrascene. When the JVC goes interscene it's total black in my room (e.g., like when a full-array local dimming LED/LCD shuts off the backlight in between scenes), then if it pops back on to a really bright scene it's like someone shined a flashlight right in my eyes in the dark. It strains my eyes if a movie does this too much and the projector is turned up too bright and causes eye fatigue much faster because they can't adjust fast enough to the drastic luminance change. eek.gif

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post #7582 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

For the record:

I don't prefer the Sony over the JVC, I have stated that many times!
I have owned both the X900 for three months and now the VW500, they are both amazing projectors I love them both.
I stand corrected!
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

High contrast scenes is no problem with the iris of the VW1000, it is near dark scenes with almost no info it can pump. I have seen it pump in 4-5 movies now in the 2+ years I have owned it and over 1000 hours on the two different units I have owned. I have the Watchmen BD and I have seen it acouple of times on my VW1000 and the iris never pump during that movie, great movie by the way. I am looking forward to watch the Ultimate cut I bought last year and I am saving it for later.smile.gif

Nice! I wish I could afford a VW1000/1100 to compliment my X700. I really want/need both to accomplish the best of everything. tongue.gif

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post #7584 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I was watching a 105" wide image of the sci fi movie Sunshine a couple nights ago, with the iris at -7 as I remember. It's a very dark movie mixed with brilliant high lights and sometimes bright scenes.
I was thnking for much of it "wow this looks dark" and yet when those shots of the sun started taking over the screen it was so bright I had to close my eyes several times.


Rich, what do you do in the real World ? ( where the light out put exceeds your HT by 1000 times (?) ) ................................ your eyes / iris adjusts to (almost always), the same should happen in your HT, IMO.

And if you are dazzled in a (sunny) scene, it is the probably the point of the movie, as it would also have been such in reality !

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post #7585 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 04:03 PM
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Nice! I wish I could afford a VW1000/1100 to compliment my X700. I really want/need both to accomplish the best of everything. tongue.gif

I don´t think you need the VW1000/1100 when you already have the X700. But if money was no object it would be a nice combination and with a really bright 3 chip DLP for 3D you have the perfect combination.wink.gif

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post #7586 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Rich, what do you do in the real World ? ( where the light out put exceeds your HT by 1000 times (?) ) ................................ your eyes / iris adjusts to (almost always), the same should happen in your HT, IMO.

And if you are dazzled in a (sunny) scene, it is the probably the point of the movie, as it would also have been such in reality !

dj

Just like most people who's eyes have adjusted to darkness, and then suddenly there is a bright light: I squint.

It was very impressive to see the contrast between the darkness and how bright the image could go in the next instant. But it wasn't exactly comfortable in this particular case.
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post #7587 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I don´t think you need the VW1000/1100 when you already have the X700. But if money was no object it would be a nice combination and with a really bright 3 chip DLP for 3D you have the perfect combination.wink.gif

Ughhh, first world problems aye! rolleyes.gif

I think any of us should feel lucky to own any of these. I've worked years to get to where I am and I'm not about to complain about what I have, only keep working towards what I want to have in the future. smile.gif

Respectfully,
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post #7588 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Rich, what do you do in the real World ? ( where the light out put exceeds your HT by 1000 times (?) )
I'm curious about something. If you could get 100 ft-lamberts for whites for movies in your theater and have dark blacks, would you want that? Do you watch with other lighting off? By my calculation the 1000 times you mentioned wouldn't even move under 100 times only going to 100 ft-lamberts. smile.gif

BTW: As far as the optical illusion thing, I've mentioned that I don't think we will get to doing things perfectly as far as narrowing factors down in comparisons since it is hard to differentiate what is causing a certain effect and impossible to just ignore one factor in all cases, but here is another example of our vision being thrown off. I've mentioned this before.

If you have an AVS test pattern disc with a ramp to 255 and then a block of 235 next to it you can put it up and then keep increasing the Contrast setting until the projector runs out of one primary color (at least on most projectors this works). I'll assume red is the weakest primary for the moment.

As the Contrast is turned up higher the projector eventually runs out of red above 235 and the levels above 235 start to become weak in red. But that isn't what our eyes think is happening (with normal vision). What our eyes see is that 235 and just below has too much red. Measurements would show that it is actually the other way around. Instead of locking to D65 our eyes will tend to see the brightest thing as white and then perceive the dimmer stuff near it as something other than white.

Imagine this in a side-by-side with a dimmer projector and a brighter projector. Our eyes may tell us that the dimmer projector has too much of one color in its whites even though the problem is that the brighter projector doesn't have enough of that color in its white compared to the standard.

I've mentioned before that getting colors to match for lots of different scenes between projectors can be difficult and I often wonder how much these differences are really the main causes of some of the other differences we perceive.

--Darin
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post #7589 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

If what the pictures you show absolutely represents perfectly what you are seeing in your room I completely understand your opinion. And I have no doubt that you prefer the Sony more and I'm perfectly fine with that as well.

I did some more testing last night and had a local dealer friend over to get his commentary. So each night before I've done this I've re-verified the calibration on both. Both were calibrated with less than a delta E of 2 for color and grayscale/gamma (2.4). But I found out more about the brightness matching. I turned on the Sony at about 6:30 last night. I had a 100 IRE field up on pause with the meter setup to measure peak white. I let the projector warm up for 15 minutes and I checked the reading, 17 fL. This is with the dynamic black in Full Auto. I dial down the manual iris until I got 14.7 (the JVC was measuring 14.6). I left EVERYTHING as is and did some stuff down in the office while waiting for my friend to arrive. Came back up about 12 minutes later with my friend and still had everything setup to show him that they were indeed brightness matched. When I took the reading it showed 16.5 fL. I dialed it down again to 14.7 and then uncovered the lens on the JVC and measured it at 14.67 and we started the tests. So in that span of 30 or so minutes the variability of the peak white level varied tremendously with the Sony, the JVC stayed the exact same. So brightness matching might be harder than one thinks with the Sony as it may take longer than normal to settle the bulb. This is all just FYI.

The iris must have some pretty massive differences between the 500 and 600. My friend thought it was almost comical how bad the image pumping was with the Sony. He saw it constantly and at first thought I was kidding around with him. I showed him all the settings in the menu and told him that this had been my experience the whole time. I also mentioned yesterday that it seems like the Sony uses its iris more than gamma manipulation to achieve a darker image whereas the JVC uses gamma more than the iris (so no pumping). This makes the image always seem slightly dimmer and duller with the Sony in comparison no matter what type of image it is. My friend said he saw that the Sony had better fine detail in a lot of different clips (I'd be quick to point it out too) but it also seemed like it was dimmer, flat and less dynamic. We both agreed that this seemed like a byproduct of the iris dimming the image thereby also hurting color saturation (like comparing the JVC with it setup brighter). This is exactly the opposite of what I'm hearing from you guys with the 500ES and what your pictures are showing, which of course has me scratching my head and you guys getting wound up. When Darin and I had the opportunity to look at the Sony before with 4K material it was a local gentleman who had imported a 500ES from Canada. Maybe there is a possibility that we can have him bring his back over at some point (or I can go to his place) and see if the iris is the same way. That is the only explanation I can think of for the drastic differences we're seeing.

If you do have access to a 500/600ES take a look at the tractor tipping scene from Cars. With the iris in Full Auto this scene is almost unwatchable due to image pumping. It was nearly constant with even the position of their eyes causing noticeable pumping. I think its like chapter 10 or 12. The JVC is absolutely stable through this whole scene with outstanding dynamics and pop but the Sony looks murky at best with obvious pumping throughout. This may give me an indication as to the differences. Maybe I can make a video of the difference and post it on youtube to see.



Kris, could it be because of different settings ? ( if you turn Contrast enhancher off and lower the brightness to about 50 - do that change anything ? ) because I can see the iris work change in ( when it closing in ) test images ( DVE - the Black background with only the 5% bars in ) if I adjust the brightness control even 1 -2 point , but thats not on a 500/600, so maybe it do not relate to them - but worth a try ?

dj
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post #7590 of 8709 Old 04-03-2014, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by stef2 View Post

Please, could somebody show me how to focus my JVC ? mine looks just like the picture I saw in this thread. i knew there was something wrong with it...wink.gif


Buy the Sony instead wink.gif

And easyer then learn to focus the JVC biggrin.gif

dj
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