Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 256 - AVS Forum
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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 06:55 PM 04-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

The Brightness control is usually for the black level and isn't really related to the iris. I'm not sure if that is what you are describing here, but it sounds like it. There is an AVS test disc that has a pattern with flashing bars near video 16 (video black) that is good for setting the Brightness control in general. The goal is basically to get the bars at 17 and higher to show up without seeing the bar for 16 or lower.

--Darin

Its pretty clear that in the dynamic iris menu, by brightness they (or he) didn't mean brightness (dark level) nor did it mean but meant CONTRAST or high bright the high end is. The quoted manual says how the control adjusts how bright the picture gets (overall) by setting the iris opening at the top end. Auto full should not be used absent poor rooms, i.e., watching in a non light controlled environment.

mariob33's Avatar mariob33 07:01 PM 04-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I read that too but it only applies to the limited mode. The instructions in the manual are vague at best. I haven't messed with the clear white setting.

Funny, it clearly seems to reflect that you would set the brightness and then adjust the mode and is located where it seems to reflect global applicability to the setting... My unit is set to a 2.2 gamma with the starting point the default 2.1 setting in the Sony.. The end calibration results measure and look phenomenal. I double checked my settings and clear white is off.
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar HoustonHoyaFan 09:07 PM 04-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I know the manual iris has nothing to do with auto full and you can not adjust the brightness that way. What we did, we put the JVC in high and with Auto 2 and iris 0 and the Sony in low and Auto full, this resulted in about 16 fl on both with a small difference in favor of the JVC. the JVC had only about 40-50 hours on the lamp and the demo Sony had 150-200 I think. You can also adjust this with different distance from the screen, but this was not needed in our test..
Now that makes perfect sense.

I contacted my old post prod colleagues and asked how to brightness match a VW600 to my VW95 and JVC RS35 for an in home comparison. After consulting their Sony contact they said that the best you can do is to set the VW95 to high, and the VW600 to low and then add a quality ND filter if it was still too bright. The Sony contact did not believe that setting the manual iris level in auto mode was a good idea and that it could screw up the DI algorithms but he was not sure. He also advised to use Auto Full if you want the best CR but that I may see more artifacts(compared to the VW95)?? He thought that Auto full was similar to the Auto 1 that I used with the VW95.

Unfortunately Sony has had some downsizing and this contact seemed less knowledgeable than those in the past.
HoustonHoyaFan's Avatar HoustonHoyaFan 09:15 PM 04-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

So now I'm scratching my head trying to figure out exactly how you guys brightness matched these two projectors fairly and still managed to use the FULL Auto Iris mode.
In your original post your setup was "We used low lamp, manual iris all the way open and Auto 2 for the JVC and Low lamp, manual iris at about 62 and the limited dynamic black setting for the Sony" and was getting severe pumping and brightness compression. Have those issues gone away with your machine reset? If so, I will try those settings for my viewing.

19FL for the JVC in high lamp and 28FL for the Sony in low?? Is that right?
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 12:12 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Its pretty clear that in the dynamic iris menu, by brightness they (or he) didn't mean brightness (dark level) nor did it mean but meant CONTRAST or high bright the high end is. The quoted manual says how the control adjusts how bright the picture gets (overall) by setting the iris opening at the top end. Auto full should not be used absent poor rooms, i.e., watching in a non light controlled environment.

In the 1100ES dynamic iris menu, there is no brightness setting. Just full, limited, manual, or off.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 12:54 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Did you brightness match each time? If so, how? Was this all the same that Andreas mentioned?
Was this on your screen (a Black Diamond IIRC)? If not, what kind of screen was it on?

It sounds like you brightness matched from facing the projector, not from the screen. What kinds of angles were the projectors and viewers (and/or camera) at?

--Darin


2 out og 3 times on supernova dnp core2. Picture taken is from that screen. Same distance, jvc on top and Sony under. And me and Andreas have done 2 of this together.
One in my cinema and one in his, with a guy like Kris.

Also done 1 time test without brightness-matching.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 01:57 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Also, if you knew I couldn't brightness match and use auto full why we're you guys insisting I used full????

I did not know that as we could do that with our units.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 02:06 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I am measuring nearly 10 fL difference between the JVC in high lamp iris open and Sony low lamp auto full. I can't imagine how you are seeing nearly the same brightness with those kind of hours on the projectors.

Again I am getting a bit tired of you not trusting me. With the VW500 and X500 we did not have to do any adjustments to get them matched as they were matched the way I explained to you. I know from measuring the VW1000 with the iris on that Auto Limited measures about 30% less vs Auto Full, but since we did not have to do anything with the VW500 I dont know if the VW500 does the same, but I would guess it does. We measured a 100 IRE pattern from the AVS testdisk with both units with iris on and we measured them to match within 2 or 3 lux in favor of the JVC and this was at about 16fl.

And if i recall right the VW500 has a brightness adjustment with the auto full iris, we never used this, but it also does nothing with the peak white?
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 02:09 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I don't know for sure, but I would doubt a rest in the user menu will reset ant changes some user made in the service menu. that said you can screw around in the factory menu and there may be away in there to dial down the max brightness in auto full. If you do not save any changes in the service menu they will not be saved.

When you get a new unit from the factory, it is usual set to a film mode with a DCI gamut. Looks real strange.

I don´t know that as I have never done it and I would never go into the serice menu to to adjustments, and you are right about I am sure. But a factory reset "fixed" the iris on this unit and it showes why it would be wise to do this when receiving a demo unit.smile.gif
darinp2's Avatar darinp2 02:15 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I contacted my old post prod colleagues and asked how to brightness match a VW600 to my VW95 and JVC RS35 for an in home comparison. After consulting their Sony contact they said that the best you can do is to set the VW95 to high, and the VW600 to low and then add a quality ND filter if it was still too bright. The Sony contact did not believe that setting the manual iris level in auto mode was a good idea and that it could screw up the DI algorithms but he was not sure.
That response surprised me, although as you say their answer may not be as informed as you could get in the past. Sony has been doing dynamic irises for years and I would expect their DI algorithms to work pretty well even if the most open iris position used for the DI was not full open. I also thought that one idea behind using Limited was to be able to control the most open iris position using the manual setting, but now I'm not sure if the projectors work that way.

Closing down the most open lens iris position for a DI would generally be more desirable than using an ND filter IMO, but this does require that the algoritms still work well and does depend somewhat on how far the iris can close down at its most closed with the DI enabled.

Once a projector has a lens iris that can be moved dynamically it really makes sense to me to be able to set the most open position to tune how bright the images are, like JVC did this year (although it took some proding and an original answer at CEDIA that it was too late to get this into these models) and like I thought the Sony projectors had supported for a while (although maybe requiring going into the service menu).

--Darin
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 02:16 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I received the projector from Tom Norton calibrated and in the settings he felt were the best based on his testing. I verified the calibration and the only setting I would have changed (even now) is the RC on vs off. So the projector was fine. And I trust Tom more than you or your calibrator.

If the projector behaved in the same way when he tested it as I would think it did I don´t understand your statement. He saw this as the best projector he had ever tested and it had a major flaw and you say it is unwatchable in some scenes, this does not make me wanting to trust him, but of corse something might have happened after you got it from him, but i doubt that. Idon´t know how he tested the VW600 and I have no reason not to trust him as I don´t know him or ever read his tests. I have received many demo models from my calibrator and he have told me alway does a factory reset if it is possible before he calibrate and tests them, if you trust him or not I don´t care about, but it seems like good adwise does it not?wink.gif

And the projector was not fine with the flawed iris was it, and I think you need to admit I was right when I questioned this earlier about there might be a difference between the VW600 and 500 or there might be something wrong with your unit. I have owned and tested several Sonys with irises and I have seen three different VW500 and have never seen iris pumping in other than very extreme scenes (with the VW1000) and shifting from full light to dark or the opposite so this made me question the unit you have now. And I am normally very sensitive to irises pumping and have the ability to see thing others do not see as I also have many years of experience doing this even if I don´t do this professionally or am a experienced calibrator with ISF sertifisation.cool.gif
darinp2's Avatar darinp2 02:50 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

this was at about 16fl.
Did you measure the fl or calculate it based on screen gain?

Here is something I found for claimed gain curve for a DNP screen rated at .8:

http://www.dnp-screens.com/Files/Filer/DNP08/Downloads/GainChart_Supernova08-85.pdf

I'm not sure if the screen is all angular reflective (like most screens with gain) or has at least some component of retro-reflectivity (like the Da-Lite High Power), but either way the actual gain is very sensitive to angle.

--Darin
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 03:15 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Did you measure the fl or calculate it based on screen gain?

Here is something I found for claimed gain curve for a DNP screen rated at .8:

http://www.dnp-screens.com/Files/Filer/DNP08/Downloads/GainChart_Supernova08-85.pdf

I'm not sure if the screen is all angular reflective (like most screens with gain) or has at least some component of retro-reflectivity (like the Da-Lite High Power), but either way the actual gain is very sensitive to angle.

--Darin

We calculated this based on screen gain as we used a lux meter and we also had a reading from our calibrator.

The projectors was at the same angle as I know of this with the DNP as I own it. Stop question my ability to do this.
Elix's Avatar Elix 03:24 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

If the projector behaved in the same way when he tested it as I would think it did I don´t understand your statement. He saw this as the best projector he had ever tested and it had a major flaw and you say it is unwatchable in some scenes, this does not make me wanting to trust him, but of corse something might have happened after you got it from him, but i doubt that.
Tom used this projector with the iris set to Auto Limited. So Kris tested in those settings. And he only saw artifacts when you asked him to test in Auto Full iirc.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 03:26 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Tom used this projector with the iris set to Auto Limited. So Kris tested in those settings. And he only saw artifacts when you asked him to test in Auto Full iirc.

No, he did not he saw them with Auto Limited also but not as strong. The test Kris and Darin did was in Auto Limited and they notised huge iris pumping, read the post of Kris again.cool.gif
BrolicBeast's Avatar BrolicBeast 05:15 AM 04-05-2014
I'm a current 600 owner, but I plan to get an RS57 for casual viewing and gaming....I look forward to putting these head to head. These comparisons are quite interesting.
Geof's Avatar Geof 06:42 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Stop question my ability to do this.
You're too defensive....I did not read Darin's question as a comment on your abilities - it was a question of how did you do it

And, no offense but the "I told you so" attitude on the Iris isn't helpful.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 07:15 AM 04-05-2014
Good defense wins championships.
Citation4444's Avatar Citation4444 07:21 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Good defense wins championships.

+1


Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 07:30 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

You're too defensive....I did not read Darin's question as a comment on your abilities - it was a question of how did you do it

And, no offense but the "I told you so" attitude on the Iris isn't helpful.

If you read Darins posts in this tread he questions my ability all the time that is why I wrote this.
Geof's Avatar Geof 07:33 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Good defense wins championships.
As the Bronco's discovered.....
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 08:02 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

I'm a current 600 owner, but I plan to get an RS57 for casual viewing and gaming....I look forward to putting these head to head. These comparisons are quite interesting.

I've studied these 2 projectors in a stack with a split source. If you equalize the light output (JVC in high /. Sony in low) the JVC has a noticeable advantage in the low APL scenes. A good example is the original spider man movie @ 29:00 marker or the interrogation scene in Oblivion.

2014-shootout-6.jpg

if someone doesn't have a large, low gain screen to light up, imo the JVC makes more sense for those that have an interesting in the high native contrast of the RS57. The new iris does a good job at creating a convincing black floor in a way that exceeds even the top models from the last 2 years.
Geof's Avatar Geof 08:18 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


if someone doesn't have a large, low gain screen to light up, imo the JVC makes more sense for those that have an interesting in the high native contrast of the RS57. The new iris does a good job at creating a convincing black floor in a way that exceeds even the top models from the last 2 years.
Did you ever compare CR's between the x500 and x700?
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar AV Science Sales 5 08:22 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Tom used this projector with the iris set to Auto Limited. So Kris tested in those settings. And he only saw artifacts when you asked him to test in Auto Full iirc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

No, he did not he saw them with Auto Limited also but not as strong. The test Kris and Darin did was in Auto Limited and they notised huge iris pumping, read the post of Kris again.cool.gif

Yes it was strange. Kris noticed a lot of pumping in limited, but after resetting the projector he did not notice huge pumping in limited.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 08:27 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I've studied these 2 projectors in a stack with a split source. If you equalize the light output (JVC in high /. Sony in low) the JVC has a noticeable advantage in the low APL scenes. A good example is the original spider man movie @ 29:00 marker or the interrogation scene in Oblivion.

2014-shootout-6.jpg

if someone doesn't have a large, low gain screen to light up, imo the JVC makes more sense for those that have an interesting in the high native contrast of the RS57. The new iris does a good job at creating a convincing black floor in a way that exceeds even the top models from the last 2 years.

I also see this advantage in some scenes(many scenes in a movie like AVP2 and maybe some others, but not many), the problem is that in most movies these very low APL scenes if far between and in the rest of the movie the Sony VW500 is on par or better. This makes me judge the VW600 to be the better machine, but if the most important thing is a very low blacklevel and very high on/off the JVC would be the right choice. If you fancy the best overall picture quality and money is no object the VW500 is the right choice or maby the VW1100.smile.gif

And of coruse your screensize and many other factors are important when choosing a projector and I would not recommend the Sony or even JVC for any user, but I leave this to the people selling projectors. If people ask me for advise I ask many questions before I recommend a projector.
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering 08:39 AM 04-05-2014
The pumping was extreme with full auto. It was noticeable with limited but not nearly as bad. I haven't tested limited since resetting the projector yet. I didn't have time yesterday. But I wasn't seeing the same issues with full (but it also wasn't responding to the brightness setting like before). I may get some testing time today though.

Andreas, I find it odd that you get so defensive about Darin or I questioning your results or setup but have no issues at all questioning or condemning my results. Despite the fact that I've been absolutely clear about each and every thing I've done from the get go and actually take advice. You say very little about what you guys did but when we ask get defensive or fall back on the reputation of your calibrator. But how can I not question the validity of your test when the measurements I'm taking are showing a profound difference in brightness with about the same amount of hours yet in your test they just happen to be exactly the same? Seems awfully convenient. I'll report back on the performance of the iris after I get some testing in.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 08:56 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

The pumping was extreme with full auto. It was noticeable with limited but not nearly as bad. I haven't tested limited since resetting the projector yet. I didn't have time yesterday. But I wasn't seeing the same issues with full (but it also wasn't responding to the brightness setting like before). I may get some testing time today though.

Andreas, I find it odd that you get so defensive about Darin or I questioning your results or setup but have no issues at all questioning or condemning my results. Despite the fact that I've been absolutely clear about each and every thing I've done from the get go and actually take advice. You say very little about what you guys did but when we ask get defensive or fall back on the reputation of your calibrator. But how can I not question the validity of your test when the measurements I'm taking are showing a profound difference in brightness with about the same amount of hours yet in your test they just happen to be exactly the same? Seems awfully convenient. I'll report back on the performance of the iris after I get some testing in.

So you are still telling me I am wrong and telling lies about our test.

Your test is not valid and I am condemning it without question as the VW600 clearly had an issue. And I don´t see why I should provide every detail about our test and at what angle we set the different projector according to the dnp Supernova screen and so on. I know about the limitations of my screen and I know my calibrator knows what he is doing and so on and so forth The most important thing is that we brightness matched them and it was easy for us because we could just put the JVC in high and Sony in low and of course calibrated them to the same standard . This was the case with our samples and If you belive me or not I find not to be important anymore. You and Darin are not gurus of this field and I think you need to open your eyes and maybe you wold learn something from someone some day, but not from me.cool.gif

If you see what Zombie writes about matching, he sets the JVC in high and Sony in low.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 08:57 AM 04-05-2014
Who is going to have the last word on the other. Somebody falls asleep and yet the next day wakes up and the volleys continue. Day after day. Who cares who is right or wrong in a number one and number two contest. And that doesn't mean who is number one or two. Of course. the participants will say they are not playing in an outhouse ands its only a justified response. He made me do it Ma.
Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 09:08 AM 04-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Who is going to have the last word on the other. Somebody falls asleep and yet the next day wakes up and the volleys continue. Day after day. Who cares who is right or wrong in a number one and number two contest. And that doesn't mean who is number one or two. Of course. the participants will say they are not playing in an outhouse ands its only a justified response. He made me do it Ma.

This is so true, but when one of us tests with a "broken" sample of one of the two it is not correct. I find this to be just silly now and they need to understand that everything has to work to do a fair comparison. Brightness matching and calibrating is not the only important things to do before side by side testing projectors.cool.gif
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 09:23 AM 04-05-2014
You almost got it but then you added a but where there should have been a period and nothing more.


OK MOVING ON. BOTH OF YOU.


I when watching the free 4K clips off the server played with flipping between auto full and limited. On the nature clips I preferred the extra brightness and detail visible on full vs limited. The colors changed slightly. Either one was qwuite watcheable by itself but in comparison all else held constant, the full look a little better to me. New bulb (8hrs) on low, 110D 1.78 1.0 gain screen.
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