Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 265 - AVS Forum
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post #7921 of 8919 Old 04-10-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You have a Canon EOS-1DC? that's $10K USD or I will let you slide to a Canon EOS-1DX and still call it top of the line for a paltry $6K USD?
Does a EOS-1Ds Mark III with 1/2 dozen EF lenses count? I know its a bit long in the tooth but it still can take wonderful pictures-in the right hands.
Please be kind I still have a lot to learn....







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post #7922 of 8919 Old 04-10-2014, 05:25 PM
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There are no bad cameras, just some not so great photographers.

I was just questioning whether Adreas was saying he had the top of the line Canon or one of the upper end Canons. What Canon is best depends on its intended use. I should nature shots primarily with long lenses and need fast auto focusing and a high frames per second. I don't shoot video.

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post #7923 of 8919 Old 04-10-2014, 06:01 PM
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There are no bad cameras, just some not so great photographers.

Yes amazing photography is really quite the art.
I'm merely a budding hobbyist.

In general enjoy shooting with fixed focal length cameras & vintage fixed lenses as well as macro.
I have a Sigma DP1, DP2 and a bunch of lenses. Some as old as the late 50's
I was going to get the DP3 but I'm going to wait and try and find a Sony RX1r at a reasonable price.
The RX1r is one of the best cameras I have ever shot with. Its really amazing.
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post #7924 of 8919 Old 04-10-2014, 07:09 PM
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I shoot Nikon. I have a 400 2.8 AF-D whatever with tele extenders and a 200 - 400 F4 AFI also with tele-extenders for my wildlife shooting. I have been waiting 4 years now for the D400 to come out.
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post #7925 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

There are no bad cameras, just some not so great photographers.

I was just questioning whether Adreas was saying he had the top of the line Canon or one of the upper end Canons. What Canon is best depends on its intended use. I should nature shots primarily with long lenses and need fast auto focusing and a high frames per second. I don't shoot video.

I am not a good fotographer and I don´t have one of the upper end Canon cameras, but I have a top of the line with a APS-C CMOS-sensor the EOS 70D with different good lenses including L lenses.

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post #7926 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I am still waiting for your solution on how to brightness match projectors in the best way, I will try your solution the next time I side by side test different projectors.cool.gif
I hate to disappoint you but I can't give you a straight answer you're looking for. And I doubt there is one. I want to repeat my previous statement: a photo by itself is merely a tool to convey your thoughts and your views. For example, in the JVC vs. Sony shoot-out one could show Sony's advantage in whites and the other could show JVC's advantage in blacks.

One answer to your question is that when you want to truly equalize brightness on all levels, you must make sure their measured gamma is the same throughout the whole luminance range. And that means you must take Dynamic Contrast algorithms our of the equation because those (including dynamic irises) screw up gamma. But then the outcome will also be predictable given that we know measured values for native sequential contrast and ANSI contrast. But we can't just throw away those dynamic contrast implementations because they're part of projectors, right? I believe that was also one of your points, and I agree.

Equalizing brightness on a 100% field using dynamic irises works in subjective comparisons. And that's OK. But to be truly objective you have to do more than just taking side-by-side photos. That involves some 'AV Science' including contrast, gamma, color measurements under various conditions. You have to be vocal about these things and provide some hard evidence.
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post #7927 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

I hate to disappoint you but I can't give you a straight answer you're looking for. And I doubt there is one. I want to repeat my previous statement: a photo by itself is merely a tool to convey your thoughts and your views. For example, in the JVC vs. Sony shoot-out one could show Sony's advantage in whites and the other could show JVC's advantage in blacks.

One answer to your question is that when you want to truly equalize brightness on all levels, you must make sure their measured gamma is the same throughout the whole luminance range. And that means you must take Dynamic Contrast algorithms our of the equation because those (including dynamic irises) screw up gamma. But then the outcome will also be predictable given that we know measured values for native sequential contrast and ANSI contrast. But we can't just throw away those dynamic contrast implementations because they're part of projectors, right? I believe that was also one of your points, and I agree.

Equalizing brightness on a 100% field using dynamic irises works in subjective comparisons. And that's OK. But to be truly objective you have to do more than just taking side-by-side photos. That involves some 'AV Science' including contrast, gamma, color measurements under various conditions. You have to be vocal about these things and provide some hard evidence.

I am not talking about photos and as I have said earlier I am not a big fan of screenshots and I was not the one taking or posting them. The differences we see in the photos is not a 100% correct, but they show it as close as we saw it on screen and that is why DJ Dee posted them. This was just to illustrate for Kris and others here to "see what wee see" these pictures was posted. I don´t like screenshots, but when taken like this they can have some value.

When side by side testing projectors with DI it is impossible to match them through tha whole range as the DI of the Sony and JVC work in different ways. The only way to do this is to calibrate them to the same standard and match them at 100 IRE with the DI on, then the side by side comparison is "fair".
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post #7928 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

The only way to do this is to calibrate them to the same standard and match them at 100 IRE with the DI on, then the side by side comparison is "fair".
That's the point. You can't match them in the whole luminance range (to the same standard) with Dynamic Irises engaged. Today I will post graphs for gamma of Planar PD8150 with DI on and off to illustrate.
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post #7929 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

That's the point. You can't match them in the whole luminance range (to the same standard) with Dynamic Irises engaged. Today I will post graphs for gamma of Planar PD8150 with DI on and off to illustrate.

Exactly! Since the Sony & JVC iris' do not operate "exactly" the same, there's always the chance that the gamma could be a bit different on both projectors in the same clips of a scene in a film. One could be brighter or dimmer than the other. I believe this is what we're seeing in those photos.

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post #7930 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

Exactly! Since the Sony & JVC iris' do not operate "exactly" the same, there's always the chance that the gamma could be a bit different on both projectors in the same clips of a scene in a film. One could be brighter or dimmer than the other. I believe this is what we're seeing in those photos.
And Darin was the first to rise this gamma issue here.
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post #7931 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

That's the point. You can't match them in the whole luminance range (to the same standard) with Dynamic Irises engaged. Today I will post graphs for gamma of Planar PD8150 with DI on and off to illustrate.

It is a tough problem. The Sony requires you to use the iris to get the best out of the projector and you don't handicap the brighter whites of the Sony, just like you would not handicap the darker blacks of the JVC. You want to be able to see the best, each projector has to offer.

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post #7932 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 07:08 AM
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It is a tough problem. The Sony requires you to use the iris to get the best out of the projector and you don't handicap the brighter whites of the Sony, just like you would not handicap the darker blacks of the JVC. You want to be able to see the best, each projector has to offer.
Yes. And it is better to give a subjective assessment in this case which both parties did (Kris/Darin & Andreas/DjDee). We could do measurements and plot the graphs all day long but in the end it's the actual performance and eye-contact which matters. Calibration is a separate point of interest to those who are into it. smile.gif
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post #7933 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

And Darin was the first to rise this gamma issue here.

Yup smile.gif
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It is a tough problem. The Sony requires you to use the iris to get the best out of the projector and you don't handicap the brighter whites of the Sony, just like you would not handicap the darker blacks of the JVC. You want to be able to see the best, each projector has to offer.

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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Yes. And it is better to give a subjective assessment in this case which both parties did (Kris/Darin & Andreas/DjDee). We could do measurements and plot the graphs all day long but in the end it's the actual performance and eye-contact which matters. Calibration is a separate point of interest to those who are into it. smile.gif

I agree. While it's not possible to match them perfectly across the entire luminance range with the DI's engaged, they have done the best they can to match the projectors as closely as possible. I really enjoyed this comparison and learned a few things along the way. In the end, I want both (Sony & JVC), LOL! I have different circumstances where one would work better than the other, and vice versa. smile.gif

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post #7934 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 08:05 AM
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Yup smile.gif

I agree. While it's not possible to match them perfectly across the entire luminance range with the DI's engaged, they have done the best they can to match the projectors as closely as possible. I really enjoyed this comparison and learned a few things along the way. In the end, I want both (Sony & JVC), LOL! I have different circumstances where one would work better than the other, and vice versa. smile.gif

I rather enjoy having both. smile.gif

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post #7935 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 08:21 AM
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I rather enjoy having both. smile.gif

I'll gladly pair the VW1100 with my X700 if you're buying. tongue.gif

Pour it on, burns good! biggrin.gif

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post #7936 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

One answer to your question is that when you want to truly equalize brightness on all levels, you must make sure their measured gamma is the same throughout the whole luminance range. And that means you must take Dynamic Contrast algorithms our of the equation because those (including dynamic irises) screw up gamma.
What problem are you trying to solve? Why do you believe it is possible or even desirable to equalize brightness at all levels for different projectors, especially ones with very different performance characteristics?

FYI, DI algorithms do not 'screw up gamma', they may screw up your attempted gamma measurements. There is a big difference.
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post #7937 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 09:00 AM
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Some DIs use very customize gamma curves that are unlike any single number gamma curve or even one with s shaped ends. This is done to increase the contrast range buy brightening the upper end objects when the iris has been closed down to some or the greatest iextent to darken the black objects. The problem is this will often clip the higher end and shift the color temp.

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post #7938 of 8919 Old 04-11-2014, 10:28 AM
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Some DIs use very customize gamma curves that are unlike any single number gamma curve or even one with s shaped ends. This is done to increase the contrast range buy brightening the upper end objects when the iris has been closed down to some or the greatest iextent to darken the black objects. The problem is this will often clip the higher end and shift the color temp.
Even without a Dl, almost all projectors do the same thing and have been for years. Marantz was the poster child for this.
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post #7939 of 8919 Old 04-12-2014, 04:18 AM
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comment on the contrast discussion in the 500/600 thread (this is where this conversation belongs)


I've had the 600 in a stack with the 4910 / 57. The JVC(s) in high lamp is basically the same lumen output as the 600 in low lamp. I don't need a double blind test to see the obvious advantage of the JVC in certain scenes. The DI adds an advantage that trumps the best that JVC could offer last year.

Original Spiderman @ 29:00 shows a clear difference between what the 4910/57 can handle vs the 600. I also own a 1000 which is better, but still not entirely competitive with the JVC's in low -> very low APL scenes.

I don't really see the argument here. It's something that's relatively easy to see in a stack with a split source.

Is the JVC crazy noisy though compared?

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post #7940 of 8919 Old 04-12-2014, 05:46 AM
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Is the JVC crazy noisy though compared?

The JVC is not very loud in high lamp. Much better than it was last year.
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post #7941 of 8919 Old 04-12-2014, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Is the JVC crazy noisy though compared?

The JVC is louder in it's high lamp vs. the Sony 600 in low lamp. I've had the 4910/57 stacked with the RS55 and X35 (RS46), the noise in high lamp this year is similar but the tone has changed a bit.

This is 1 area JVC could improve next year, Sony has done a very good job handling fan noise. The 1100 is quieter in high lamp (1500+ lumens) than the JVC's in high lamp @ ~900.

The HW50 / 55 is also quieter in high lamp vs. the JVC's. overall though I don't have an issue with it and my projectors are located just a few feet behind my seats.

Epson 5030 fan in high lamp would likely draw on my nerves a bit, same w/ the BQ W7000.
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post #7942 of 8919 Old 04-12-2014, 04:06 PM
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What is the conclusion with the DI are people still seeing the pumping when set to Full? or is there a work around to minimize it? What are the best settings for the DI, Full , limited or off and what is the best setting for the brightness? I thought i seen Andreaes say set to Full with brightness at 90.
I am one of the ones that can see the DI pumping when set to high.
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post #7943 of 8919 Old 04-12-2014, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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3D will live on through at least 2016, JC says so.. Can you handle 3 more avatars?

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/22uz4m/i_am_james_cameron_ama/

boy is he right here:

I believe all movies should be made in 3D, forever, but the projection needs to be better, and brighter. I want people to see in the movie theaters what I am seeing in my perfectly calibrated screening room, and people aren't seeing that.

it's a shame there wasn't some kind of minimum standard set for 3D in regard to perceived brightness, x-talk, color performance, etc. I saw Avatar in 2009 at the massive Imax in King of Prussia PA. Amazing size screen, so so performance imo for Avatar. I've seen it look better on my 142" 2.8HP with a myriad of different, relatively low cost projectors.

I've watched a number of Imax presentation in different theaters just to make sure it wasn't a unique situation. The others 3D theaters I've seen were just as dreary looking, Pacific Rim left so much on the table at my local Imax theater, remarkable in my setup. I also hate circular polarizing glasses, they should be banned.

imax2.jpg

To add further, the first few years of certain TV sets and projectors didn't help the situation with noticeable issues like poor x-talk performance, low brightness and cumbersome glasses that were expensive.

it's no wonder it didn't become mainstream.

So now years later, folks finally realize that good 3D starts with bright 3D. I am sure JC was disappointed with the theater reproduction vs. what he was seeing on those studio monitors.

I don't think it will change in the theater, the current equipment they are using is likely it for a while. I am just glad that we have a number of quality 3D projectors that when combined with a high power screen, can give an amazing 3D presentation. Not all movies have to be in 3D, but certain one's like Frozen are done so well, and used in a way that can bring you into the story. Especially when you sit 1.25 from a 142" 16:9. This is my mini-imax and there is no gum under the seat. smile.gif

I can't believe we have to wait 2 full years to find out what the blue people are going to do next.


Having said all of that..... I will be first in line to see Godzilla 3D at KOP, I can't wait for this to come out on bluray... biggrin.gifcool.gif

dealwithit-godzilla-sunglasses.gif
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post #7944 of 8919 Old 04-12-2014, 09:37 PM
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I'm a huge fan of 3D-done well

Sadly this run is done, over kaput...

3D ticket sales have been plummeting since the summer of 2010.
Theater operators are no longer showing 3D in their premium large capacity venues.
Films being released in 3D for 2014 is down to near pre-Avatar numbers.
And nearly 1/2 are animation.

Broadcasters have given up

CES 2014 was as if 3D never existed.
3D Bluray releases for 2014 are almost nonexistent.

My plan is to stock up on 3D titles and put them next to my collection of reel-to-reel, cassette tapes, 8-tracks, quadraphonic, beta, Elcaset, laser disc, DAT, mindisc, DCC, DVD-A, D-VHS and HD-DVD.
I don't consider LPs or SACD as dead formats as they are still being produced.
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post #7945 of 8919 Old 04-12-2014, 10:07 PM
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I wish what you were saying is true translux but the evidence in my area contradicts. Most of the big tent pole summer movies are still advertised as 3D and they are still being shown in 3D in the bigger screens (IMAX, rpx, etx). Last summer the theaters by me were better about mixed 2D and 3D showings but this year it has been mostly 3D. Other than Trancendence most of the big summer movies are 3D. Marvel, Godzilla, apes, Transformers, animation. All 3D. Find an IMAX showing for any of these in 2D. Not gonna happen.

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post #7946 of 8919 Old 04-12-2014, 10:51 PM
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I wish what you were saying is true translux but the evidence in my area contradicts. Most of the big tent pole summer movies are still advertised as 3D and they are still being shown in 3D in the bigger screens (IMAX, rpx, etx). Last summer the theaters by me were better about mixed 2D and 3D showings but this year it has been mostly 3D. Other than Trancendence most of the big summer movies are 3D. Marvel, Godzilla, apes, Transformers, animation. All 3D. Find an IMAX showing for any of these in 2D. Not gonna happen.

Trust me I'm a huge fan.
I made a significant investment to make sure 3D was the best it could be.
I own every 3D title that is worth owning.

This is not regional but is national.
IMAX is a different animal.

People I know at the studios are saying it's done, it's done.
Let me find some industry statistics.

Fortunately the industries shiny new toy -Atmos I think will gain some real traction.
Showings I have been at with Atmos have been pretty spectacular and well received.
And we're just in its infancy.

Either way let's circle back in about 18 months on this topic.
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Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

Theater operators are no longer showing 3D in their premium large capacity venues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

This is not regional but is national.
IMAX is a different animal.
I wish it was that way in the Seattle area, but it isn't. I saw Captain America in 3D at an RPX theater with a 4K projector last week and it was one of the most disappointing video presentations I've been to. It was dim and to me the blacks looked pretty bad.

I called around looking for a place to see it in 2D on a big screen. I had to pretty much skip the biggest screens because they were showing it in 3D. I found a reasonably sized screen at the Alderwood Mall in 2D with a Christie DLP and in my view this presentation was much better. Much brighter and my impression was that the blacks were better (although on a blackout it looked like the projection booth or something was lighting up just part of the screen).

So, where is this happening that premium large capacity venues show 2D and not 3D? I checked Los Angeles for this movie and on Fandango the first page had ETX (AMC's big screen presentation) and Cinemark XD and both of those are doing 3D (just like IMAX). IMAX, RPX, ETX, and XD are the big chain special big screen presentations I can think of currently and at least for CA:WS they seem to be 3D even though I think the movie makes little use of it.

The Cinerama in Seattle does 2D Tuesday, but that isn't the most convenient day of the week for some of us and the rest of the showings are 3D.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the Avatar movies in 3D, but other than that and maybe a very few select movies I will be looking for 2D showings on reasonably sized screens even if I have to miss ATMOS in order to avoid 3D. Seemed like it was easier at some points last year when at least Regal was doing mixed showings where it was possible to see things in 2D in RPX even though they were released in 3D.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #7949 of 8919 Old 04-13-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post


I wish it was that way in the Seattle area, but it isn't. I saw Captain America in 3D at an RPX theater with a 4K projector last week and it was one of the most disappointing video presentations I've been to. It was dim and to me the blacks looked pretty bad.

I called around looking for a place to see it in 2D on a big screen. I had to pretty much skip the biggest screens because they were showing it in 3D. I found a reasonably sized screen at the Alderwood Mall in 2D with a Christie DLP and in my view this presentation was much better. Much brighter and my impression was that the blacks were better (although on a blackout it looked like the projection booth or something was lighting up just part of the screen).

So, where is this happening that premium large capacity venues show 2D and not 3D? I checked Los Angeles for this movie and on Fandango the first page had ETX (AMC's big screen presentation) and Cinemark XD and both of those are doing 3D (just like IMAX). IMAX, RPX, ETX, and XD are the big chain special big screen presentations I can think of currently and at least for CA:WS they seem to be 3D even though I think the movie makes little use of it.

The Cinerama in Seattle does 2D Tuesday, but that isn't the most convenient day of the week for some of us and the rest of the showings are 3D.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the Avatar movies in 3D, but other than that and maybe a very few select movies I will be looking for 2D showings on reasonably sized screens even if I have to miss ATMOS in order to avoid 3D. Seemed like it was easier at some points last year when at least Regal was doing mixed showings where it was possible to see things in 2D in RPX even though they were released in 3D.

--Darin

It does look like its a regional-see 2013 MPAA statics below.
For once the Midwest might be ahead of the curve??

We have a different issue but with similar results of a low quality visual performance.

All the big venues were converted to dual use 2D/3D at the peak of 3D. They installed the multi-format screens that look awful for both.
Went to see Capt. America last night on their "UltraScreen-70ft wide, 4k in Atmos.
Sound was fantastic, especially the Atmos trailer-see below.
The image sucked-washed out, extremely poor contrast, increased judder, and the resolution looked like a 2K print up-sampled to 4k. I tried to get clarification if this was in fact the case but the manager was unavailable.
If it went for the stellar audio experience it would have been a huge disappoint. Proves again how important good audio is to the overall experience.

Only two venues were showing 3D. Capt. America and Rio 2. Both were in the small rooms.

2013 MPAA Stats of Movie Viewers By top States



Dolby Atmos Trailer
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post #7950 of 8919 Old 04-13-2014, 10:04 AM
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Happy easter everyone. Use more time on watching film on Your PJ and less discussion. Look for Easter eggs.
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