Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 271 - AVS Forum
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post #8101 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


sometimes good ebay deals pop up on the Runco LS3 which is the same as the Planar 8130. This can crank out ~900 lumens in high lamp and has excellent PQ since it has a very good lens + the .95 DLP.

Yeah, but Dylan buys ALL the good DC4 DLP used projectors. wink.gif

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post #8102 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 09:31 PM
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This is my first JVC projector where I can actually tolerate it in high bulb mode. I agree with Kris that there is a different tone in high bulb from previous models (at least from my RS20 and RS55) that seems more tolerable
and less intrusive when watching movies.

Seegs108,

Careful not to get overhyped on these things. I think a number of us expressed great enthusiasm for the new models because we held some skepticism about the new DI, even if we were rooting for it.
That it turned out to be a decent first try, and adds some visible benefits to dark scenes and fade outs, was a welcome addition. But that was when it was not pre-hyped by owners like us. Now
you may well be receiving your projector buoyed with higher expectations than we had, and it may not live up. Though, even if it doesn't live up to all the hype, they are still probably putting out
the best black levels/contrast you can get so the image should look excellent either way.
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post #8103 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

does it have an HP friendly lens shift? I don't know if that 1.2x optical zoom would work with my setup, I am kind of stuck @ ~17 feet from the 142", the lens you sent works perfect on the 8130. did you ever find another source for the DC4, I wouldn't mind ripping this apart if I could find a panel. although i'm honestly happy with it just the way it is. I am not likely watching Underworld on this projector, but think it looks excellent with most content.

so what is next after the 4910, something has to hold you over until the fall.. smile.gif

That's one of the "issues" with the InFocus IN8x line of projectors. None of them offer lens shift and there is a fixed offset which I believe is 130%. That fixed offset is a trick to improve native contrast, but with it you lose placement flexibility. It's extremely bright at around 1600 calibrated lumens in high lamp mode and gives excellent subjective contrast performance and that's without a dynamic iris.

All of the sources seem to be scams who claim new DMDs but are actually used DC4 DMDs with some sort of defect. Your best bet to get one in good working order would be to lookout for a IN83. I got this one for an excellent price and with patience I'm sure you will too. I think I may keep the IN83. It's good to have an extra "portable" projector that has excellent PQ. The IN83 is very compact and light weight compared to most of the higher end units I've owned. It only weighs 14 pounds. eek.gif

As far as moving on to something else I think I'll be waiting for JVC to release a native 4K projector. I just don't see anything else out there within my budget that attracts me. I honestly don't think I could afford a 1100ES even on the used market. If the X500 can put out roughly the same PQ with 1080p material then I don't think I want one anyways.

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post #8104 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Yeah, but Dylan buys ALL the good DC4 DLP used projectors. wink.gif

the limited placement flexibility / zoom limitations is the deal breaker though for my setup on a number of these DC4 models. Dylan sold me the short throw lens for the Planar and it works perfect with my multi-projector setup @ 17 feet from the 142" 16:9.

Planar_8130-16.jpg

Planar_8130-15.jpg

These DLP's definitely have a different look than the Sony and JVC's. it's hard to explain but it makes me wants a Lumis 3D solo really bad..... smile.gif
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post #8105 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

This is my first JVC projector where I can actually tolerate it in high bulb mode. I agree with Kris that there is a different tone in high bulb from previous models (at least from my RS20 and RS55) that seems more tolerable
and less intrusive when watching movies.

Seegs108,

Careful not to get overhyped on these things. I think a number of us expressed great enthusiasm for the new models because we held some skepticism about the new DI, even if we were rooting for it.
That it turned out to be a decent first try, and adds some visible benefits to dark scenes and fade outs, was a welcome addition. But that was when it was not pre-hyped by owners like us. Now
you may well be receiving your projector buoyed with higher expectations than we had, and it may not live up. Though, even if it doesn't live up to all the hype, they are still probably putting out
the best black levels/contrast you can get so the image should look excellent either way.

The way I see it is that I was using my X90 close to iris full open. So I wasn't utilizing the projectors full potential for contrast anyways. It seems that with the iris in that same position on the X500 I'd get very close contrast performance, within 8000:1 of the X90, which should be close to a non-distinguishable amount. So the DI is icing on the cake. If it's close in performance to the PD8150 I think I'll be more than satisfied even if that means one or two hiccups per movie. If not, then I'll leave it off most of the time and reap the other benefits the newest generation has like better 3D performance, apparently better motion handling, and 4K inputs.

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post #8106 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Yeah, but Dylan buys ALL the good DC4 DLP used projectors. wink.gif

What can I say, I keep an eye out at all times. wink.gif

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post #8107 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Do you need the lens shift of the BQ for your specific setup? the problem with the lower cost models is that they are usually a fixed offset with little, if any vertical lens shift.

sometimes good ebay deals pop up on the Runco LS3 which is the same as the Planar 8130. This can crank out ~900 lumens in high lamp and has excellent PQ since it has a very good lens + the .95 DLP.


I have the same shelf as you and my current JVC is centered vertically, maybe I will set up some kind of Lazy Susan so I can have the 2 PJs the same height. tongue.gif Thanks for the recommendations, the Runco would be nice.

James Reid:D
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post #8108 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

These DLP's definitely have a different look than the Sony and JVC's. it's hard to explain but it makes me wants a Lumis 3D solo really bad..... smile.gif
I am hearing this from time to time. I am really interested in hearing some kind of scientific explanation. I have heard different variants:
- Color luminance in dark parts. Can't approve this theory because my HC5 calibrated with ArgyllCMS actually measures better than Planar PD8150;
- Native sharpness of a single-chip DLP. But I've heard the same thing said about 3-chip DLPs and they don't have as much advantage over other 3-panel projectors;
- Better motion. As practice shows DLPs can be better with motion than other PJ technolgies (except CRT) but not all of them. They do exhibit motion blur and they do it out of necessity. They can trade motion resolution for bit depth and vice versa.
- Image stability and lack of certain artifacts. Maybe. Namely much better color uniformity (especially noticable in BW movies), lack of drifting colors over time and panel degradation. How much of an influence does it have on picture?
- Else?..

Jason, Dylan, have you no heart for this endeavor at all? http://www.avsforum.com/t/1528424/lets-push-for-2-chip-consumer-dlp-to-happen
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post #8109 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Do you need the lens shift of the BQ for your specific setup? the problem with the lower cost models is that they are usually a fixed offset with little, if any vertical lens shift.

sometimes good ebay deals pop up on the Runco LS3 which is the same as the Planar 8130. This can crank out ~900 lumens in high lamp and has excellent PQ since it has a very good lens + the .95 DLP.

I forgot, did you ever compare the LS-3 to the LS-5 (8130 vs 8150)?
Sorry, I don't visit here as much lately and am kind of behind.

If so, what did you think of the difference, anything worth noting really?


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post #8110 of 8973 Old 04-23-2014, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I forgot, did you ever compare the LS-3 to the LS-5 (8130 vs 8150)?
Sorry, I don't visit here as much lately and am kind of behind.

If so, what did you think of the difference, anything worth noting really?

I've had an LS-1 (which is an LS-3 forced to use low lamp mode only) and PD8150 at the same time. I found a way to so I could use the LS-1 in either lamp mode though. The difference in contrast is visible in a side to side A/B comparison and the black level difference is noticeable as well. It's DC2 vs DC3. Both units are great with contrast but the PD8150 (and LS-5) definitely does have an advantage in lower APL scenes and have a lower black floor. Not to mention it's brighter as the DC3 and DC4 DMDs can reflect more light.

Check here for relative differences:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Planar8150/Planar8130-50.htm

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post #8111 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the limited placement flexibility / zoom limitations is the deal breaker though for my setup on a number of these DC4 models. Dylan sold me the short throw lens for the Planar and it works perfect with my multi-projector setup @ 17 feet from the 142" 16:9.

Planar_8130-16.jpg

Planar_8130-15.jpg

These DLP's definitely have a different look than the Sony and JVC's. it's hard to explain but it makes me wants a Lumis 3D solo really bad..... smile.gif


I am a witness to a .95 DLP, and it just has a different look. Its a major plus for mines to be an LED projector. I cannot see parting with mines for a long time
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post #8112 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 06:26 AM
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To be honest, a good 0.95 chip DLP unit is tough to beat. As long as you don't have issues with the rainbow effect or the black level threshold I recommend DLP's all the time.
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post #8113 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I've had an LS-1 (which is an LS-3 forced to use low lamp mode only) and PD8150 at the same time. I found a way to so I could use the LS-1 in either lamp mode though. The difference in contrast is visible in a side to side A/B comparison and the black level difference is noticeable as well. It's DC2 vs DC3. Both units are great with contrast but the PD8150 (and LS-5) definitely does have an advantage in lower APL scenes and have a lower black floor. Not to mention it's brighter as the DC3 and DC4 DMDs can reflect more light.

Check here for relative differences:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Planar8150/Planar8130-50.htm

I could have sworn the 8150 was a DC4 chip?? I remember visiting with Planar around that time and them talking to me about it. They also talked about the differences between DC3 and 4 being a tolerance essentially with some chips measuring a bit better than others. Are you sure it is a DC3 chip?

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post #8114 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I forgot, did you ever compare the LS-3 to the LS-5 (8130 vs 8150)?
Sorry, I don't visit here as much lately and am kind of behind.

If so, what did you think of the difference, anything worth noting really?

my 8130 measured higher dynamic contrast than the one posted in cine4home's review, it was nearly the same as the 8150.

I finally had a chance to demo the Runco 750 recently, I still prefer the mechanical iris vs. the LED dimming on the 750 although the average viewer wouldn't likely notice the difference.

I picked up this 8130 for $800 with only 90 original hours, OEM lamps are readily available and cheap. Calibration wise, it's very well behaved and looks great with a BT 1886 gamma cal on the mini 3D.

This short throw lens is perfect, the original lens made it unusable in my setup, it had to be nearly 22+ feet from my 142". the short throw allows for 17 feet which is where the rest of the projectors are.
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post #8115 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the limited placement flexibility / zoom limitations is the deal breaker though for my setup on a number of these DC4 models. Dylan sold me the short throw lens for the Planar and it works perfect with my multi-projector setup @ 17 feet from the 142" 16:9.

Planar_8130-16.jpg

Planar_8130-15.jpg

These DLP's definitely have a different look than the Sony and JVC's. it's hard to explain but it makes me wants a Lumis 3D solo really bad..... smile.gif

Which looks more natural and film-like to you?

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post #8116 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 08:32 AM
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"Natural" and "film-like" are the two most stamped words when describing picture quality. biggrin.gif I would also like to add that these qualities are heavily dependent on calibration and viewing conditions. One can make the best of projectors (Sony VW1000 or a Sim2 Superlumis, for example) look digital, over-processed and unnatural with these things only.
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post #8117 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

"Natural" and "film-like" are the two most stamped words when describing picture quality. biggrin.gif I would also like to add that these qualities are heavily dependent on calibration and viewing conditions. One can make the best of projectors (Sony VW1000 or a Sim2 Superlumis, for example) look digital, over-processed and unnatural with these things only.

I'm referring to when they are properly calibrated, of course. You're talking to someone who has had five different displays pro cal'd by Chad B over the last ten years including my first front projector (RS4810). smile.gif

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post #8118 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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david, hi it's hard to describe which is why I generally try to avoid this topic. I dislike car analogies, but it's akin to 3 different cars with quality specs that just feel different when you drive them.

that's why you see a collection of projectors here, I really enjoy seeing the unique differences each projector technology has to offer (.95 DLP vs. LCOS vs. SXRD). Most of my guests comment on the size of my screen, they rarely notice which projector is in use. For my preferences, the bigger the better. I would go 150" + if I had to room.
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post #8119 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I could have sworn the 8150 was a DC4 chip?? I remember visiting with Planar around that time and them talking to me about it. They also talked about the differences between DC3 and 4 being a tolerance essentially with some chips measuring a bit better than others. Are you sure it is a DC3 chip?

I'm 100% positive.
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post #8120 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 11:29 AM
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Which looks more natural and film-like to you?

Nothing looks quite like a 3 chip DLP to me. I don't like that overused " film like " term. It's more the motion handling, etc. Hard to put into words, just like trying to explain why a 1997 Brunello tastes better than a 2002 Napa cab. , or redheads are hotter than blondes. smile.gif

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post #8121 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 11:34 AM
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or redheads are hotter than blondes. smile.gif
That depends on the rest of the chassis. smile.gif

"Film Like" is overused but I get the sense many like "video-like" since video is usually is sharper than film on the large screen.

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post #8122 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 12:21 PM
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I define "film-like" in terms of a natural, organic look that takes on something similar to (well tuned) analog projection if you will at a good theater.

It also includes minimal to no processing artifacts such as contrast boosting, color enhancements, edge enhancement, noise reduction, motions settings that mimic the soap opera effect, etc.

By comparison, LED vs plasma. Plasma has more of this look compared to an LED even when comparing top models which are calibrated. LED just looks more digital and it's just inherent compared to a phosphor based display.

I think various content and Blu-ray transfers probably exhibit these differences more than anything else. Some look very natural and analog where as others look so processed they look like they were shot on 720p video cam (such as many Universal studio catalog titles) when they were actually shot on film. I watched Blade Runner: The Final Cut on Blu the other day as I am revisiting my catalog collection since getting my RS4810 up and running. Even though that disc is 8 years old, it was like watching a new film print. smile.gif That disc was cutting edge quality no doubt.

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post #8123 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 05:25 PM
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To be honest, a good 0.95 chip DLP unit is tough to beat. As long as you don't have issues with the rainbow effect or the black level threshold I recommend DLP's all the time.

I have to agree with that, but it seems many have issues with the DLPs black level (including me)...

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post #8124 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 05:31 PM
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I have to agree with that, but it seems many have issues with the DLPs black level (including me)...

I haven't had any problems with the black levels on my DLP. I watch a lot of material on it. Watching something like Oblivion and Pacific Rim can go toe to toe with a JVC.
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post #8125 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 06:08 PM
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I have to agree with that, but it seems many have issues with the DLPs black level (including me)...

It depends on which DLP projectors you're talking about. Some are truly in another league.

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post #8126 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 06:40 PM
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I have to agree with that, but it seems many have issues with the DLPs black level (including me)...
Certainly none of the DLPs will be able to deliver the on/off contrast or black level of the JVC or even Sony. Certainly for folks who believe that a Sony 55 does not have acceptable on/off should not consider any DLP.
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post #8127 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 07:03 PM
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What is the price of a DLP that has better blacks than a JVC?

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post #8128 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 07:13 PM
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There is no DLP that has better blacks than a JVC, the closest is the Lumis for like $30k+ I believe.


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post #8129 of 8973 Old 04-24-2014, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

There is no DLP that has better blacks than a JVC, the closest is the Lumis for like $30k+ I believe.

Be careful on how you state that. There are DLP projectors that can match and best a low/medium end JVC in terms of black level, but not contrast and image dynamics. The Sharp XV-Z20000 had the darkest black level I've seen on a DLP projector so far. It was even darker than the Planar PD8150. If you have something like an RS46 with it's iris open all the way (ie worst black level) there are a few DLP projectors that can come close or best the JVC. The PD8150 can get close, the Sharp XV-Z20000 can match it and I'm sure some Sim2 models can best the JVC. There's an old thread comparing an RS20 to a Sim2 Lumis. With the manual iris closed most of the way and using it's DI it produced a darker black floor and still had enough brightness during brighter scenes to look brighter than the RS20. For those interested, that comparison is in a thread in the $20000+ forum. Though, I guess you get what you pay for. The Lumis is much more expensive than the JVC was. The XV-Z20000 may have had a black level on par with the JVC, but it lacked contrast performance, which means that brighter images looked very dull when you closed the manual iris enough to get competitive black levels, plus darker scenes didn't have that kind of "pop" the JVCs can produce due to the far higher native contrast. The LS-5 can get close but it was still a tick or two higher than the Z20000 but luckily it had a DI instead of a manual iris so it still looks great with brighter scenes.

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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