Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 277 - AVS Forum
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post #8281 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post

I smell a myth busters episode biggrin.gif.

Does it smell like this episode?

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/stinky-car-minimyth.htm
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post #8282 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 02:06 PM
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I smell a myth busters episode

I'd better call Sim2 and Digital Projection and tell them the Super Lumis and Titan have inferior power cords. eek.gif Not. rolleyes.gif

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post #8283 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post

Before I am going to spend money on a new power cable I want some sort of evidence, not only scientific but anecdotal. But with heavy emphasis on the science part. It seems like the sort of thing that if true loads of folks on here would be trumpeting the improvement, I mean we are an obsessive bunch. I wonder if perhaps you had a faulty cable to begin with.

I'm not telling you or anyone else to buy anything. My hobbies are high quality video as well as audio. I had a old Discovery power cable laying around. I used it on a Threshold S-500 power amp. I sold the amp and decided to see if the power cable would improve my video picture. It did. Reducing noise will always improve quality.
Question: Why would loads of folks report this if most have never experimented. All you need for a controlled environment is to use the same equipment, room and screen. You remove one item at a time for comparison (the power cord) You view the picture and judge it. Its not rocket science. The picture is either improved or its not. Since we cannot do a blindfold test because you have to actually view the picture use family and friends that have zero prejudice.
There is a company that loans out cables I believe its called The Cable Company.
You can also go to Loews and start by getting the largest gauge,shortest extension cable. You can all ways return it. This will give you an idea of what these after market cables can do. Don't be afraid. THE FORCE IS WITH YOU LUKE.
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post #8284 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I don't believe this at all. Put your money into better speakers or a better projector. Not Snake Oil. wink.gif

$125.00 will not buy much speaker or projector Craig.
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post #8285 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by home theater View Post

$125.00 will not buy much speaker or projector Craig.

No....but it can buy A LOT more useful things, like pizza and pop for a couple of Sunday football parties. Or a bunch of pet rocks.

Also, your "protocol" for testing changes to your audio and video equipment is not scientific and does not present any type of even plausible results. In order to A/B compare changes you actually have to A/B them without knowing which one is which and simultaneously/side-by-side. Turning the equipment off, changing a cable, then turning it back on and thinking you can see a difference is not plausible as your mind does not hold an accurate enough memory of the picture you had seen before (at least not enough to justify plausible results). Also, psychology plays a big factor because whether someone will admit it or not, they WANT to see a difference to justify their unnecessary purchase. The psychology of the human mind is a HUGE variable in experiments.

And I am absolutely speaking from experience.
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post #8286 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by home theater View Post


I'm not telling you or anyone else to buy anything. My hobbies are high quality video as well as audio. I had a old Discovery power cable laying around. I used it on a Threshold S-500 power amp. I sold the amp and decided to see if the power cable would improve my video picture. It did. Reducing noise will always improve quality.
Question: Why would loads of folks report this if most have never experimented. All you need for a controlled environment is to use the same equipment, room and screen. You remove one item at a time for comparison (the power cord) You view the picture and judge it. Its not rocket science. The picture is either improved or its not. Since we cannot do a blindfold test because you have to actually view the picture use family and friends that have zero prejudice.
There is a company that loans out cables I believe its called The Cable Company.
You can also go to Loews and start by getting the largest gauge,shortest extension cable. You can all ways return it. This will give you an idea of what these after market cables can do. Don't be afraid. THE FORCE IS WITH YOU LUKE.

 

You're right it's not rocket science, it's metallurgical science and physics.  As it pertains to the manufacturing of copper wire and the transmission of electricity, both areas of science that are very well understood with universally accepted, predictable results.

 

How is it that only in hobbyist applications of audio and video this phenomena of changing one length of copper wire for another length of copper wire always produces superior results?  Why does one never read or hear a report stating that changing the wire produce undesirable results?  Why do I never see these magic power cords at use in a hospital powering heart monitors or Computerized Tomography scanning machines where they might really make a difference if they worked?

 

Why are there no endorsements from someone like UL, TÜV, ISO, etc. for these types of improvements?  Heck, NASA endorsed Tang but I've never seen them talk about a Super-Duper power cord that improves rocket launches...

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post #8287 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 04:58 PM
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Why? Because they are classified! Its not rocket science. And power cords can indeed perform filtering functions.

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post #8288 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 05:37 PM
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OK lets talk about something else. Anybody have any predictions when the 4k movies will be offered to the general public? Seems that power cable topic hurt some feelings. I like my 4910 but after spending several hours with a 600ES I'm already begging to get weak. Zombie I understand your point about having multiple projectors. Like having different cars for different occasions.
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post #8289 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

I have some further comments/questions on brightness differences between the VW600 and HW55:

1) To confirm - looks like in high lamp mode and D65/R709 setting, the HW55 does around 1000 lumens and the 600 does around 1500+ lumens. The VW600 will do 960 in low lamp mode.

2) Is there any difference in the high lamp and brightest mode (brighter than D65/R709) between these two projectors? I want to use a projector for both day time (ambient light) and night time viewing, which is why I'm asking this question.

3) Is the fan on the VW600 louder than the fan in the HW55 - both low and high lamp mode??


Thanks,
Dave

Bump...anybody have some input on #2 and #3?


Thanks in advance,
Dave

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post #8290 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by home theater View Post

Seems that power cable topic hurt some feelings.

I'm all for "moving on" to better/different topics, but please don't make snide remarks. It's immature and an indirect shot at undermining the wealth of knowledge others were willing to provide you regarding an often talked about, and often wrong, topic.

Thanks.
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post #8291 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

Bump...anybody have some input on #2 and #3?


Thanks in advance,
Dave

I can help answer as I had the 600ES for 2 months and then switched to the 55ES (due to financial situations).

2) I have not noticed a perceivable difference between low lamp when using Reference preset with 2.2 gamma, d65, and R709. Same goes for high lamp in 3D. Both, to my eyes, are about on par in the brightness department.

3) I do not hear the 55ES at my seat, just like I didn't hear the 600ES at my seat. They are both as audible (or inaudible) as the other.

Hope that helps.
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post #8292 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by home theater View Post

I'm not telling you or anyone else to buy anything. My hobbies are high quality video as well as audio. I had a old Discovery power cable laying around. I used it on a Threshold S-500 power amp. I sold the amp and decided to see if the power cable would improve my video picture. It did. Reducing noise will always improve quality.

The amount of filtering you get with a power cable is negligible, on top of that the power supplies in most of these projectors will generate more noise than any power cable will filter out. The science behind transmission lines is pretty well sorted out. A cable like a power cord does little more than act as a very weak filter, it's pretty easy to measure the parameters of a power cable and figure out what it is going to do to a signal. Of course the AC into a projector isn't a signal and is isolated from the display portion so....
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Question: Why would loads of folks report this if most have never experimented. All you need for a controlled environment is to use the same equipment, room and screen.

And someone else to switch it for you so you don't know what's being displayed, or if a change was even made.
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You remove one item at a time for comparison (the power cord) You view the picture and judge it. Its not rocket science. The picture is either improved or its not.

Or the third and most likely possibility, your preconceptions about what you expect to see biases what you actually perceive and you end up seeing what you expect to see. There's also the additional complication that it takes a rather long time to power off and back on a projector, probably at least a minute. Our visual memory isn't very good over time, it's unlikely for anyone to be able to come to an accurate reliable conclusion with minutes of downtime in between.

It's not rocket science, but to really test something like this objectively is rather difficult. You need two identical projectors, which are calibrated identically. You would need to do the calibration on each machine with the same power cord. Then swap one out, turn them both on, then you could block one at a time, and a third party could show one or the other without you knowing and you could then do an ABX test to see if you could reliably identify a difference.

Of course that whole test is fraught with problems. It's unlikely two "identical" projectors are actually identical, and achieving a completely identical calibration is also all but impossible.
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You can also go to Loews and start by getting the largest gauge,shortest extension cable. You can all ways return it. This will give you an idea of what these after market cables can do. Don't be afraid. THE FORCE IS WITH YOU LUKE.

If someone can provide a plausible explanation of why a different power cable would improve my picture, I'd be happy to try it, but I have not seen any such explanation. Larger gauge? That would lower the resistance, but all that will do is increase the voltage to the projector, maybe a few milliVolts at the differences we're talking about. I already know that my voltage (RMS) changes by several volts over relatively short time periods and my Planar 8150's picture doesn't change at all when that happens. Capacitance, Inductances of the cable? That may affect the phase of the power but the projector doesn't care about that.

When my fridge turns on, you can see lights dim a bit, but this also has absolutely no effect on the picture when I'm watching my projector, same for the AC or Furnace which have bigger effects on my power.

All of these "bad things" that happen to my power but have absolutely no effect on the image my projector displays when they occur tells me that there is no reason to expect one power cable vs another to make any difference at all, let alone an improvement.

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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

No....but it can buy A LOT more useful things, like pizza and pop for a couple of Sunday football parties. Or a bunch of pet rocks.

Or some more movies to watch.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #8293 of 8764 Old 04-30-2014, 08:13 PM
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Not to belabor my point. but you can design a lot of filtering into a power cable if you want to.

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post #8294 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 12:44 AM
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If someone can provide a plausible explanation of why a different power cable would improve my picture, I'd be happy to try it, but I have not seen any such explanation. Larger gauge? That would lower the resistance, but all that will do is increase the voltage to the projector, maybe a few milliVolts at the differences we're talking about. I already know that my voltage (RMS) changes by several volts over relatively short time periods and my Planar 8150's picture doesn't change at all when that happens. Capacitance, Inductances of the cable? That may affect the phase of the power but the projector doesn't care about that.
.

Agree, highly unlikely changing the cable makes any difference. Though I guess it might be possible (doubtful) that the amount of EMI shielded from the gauge of the cable could make a difference if you stack the power cable on top of your HDMI cable, which is probably a bad idea to run the video cables that close to the power cable anyhow. The problem with this theory is that I've found most HDMI cables are so intrinsically more shield proof than a lot of cables.

So that brings us to another possibility, now we are finding one true possibility, if you are using network CAT 6 (or CAT whatever) to run your video transmissions and your HDMI processor or convertor is too close to the power cable, there is a good opening there for the shielding to be deficient at the connector as the power cable emits the EMI field. Still, I seriously doubt it, I'm just barking worthless theory that I haven't even thought about in years.

Twist that network cable enough times and the resistance is altered, and then twist in the power cable too closely, and it might matter, of course twisting a network cable is a really really bad idea anyhow.


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post #8295 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 05:56 AM
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Go to the audio forum there's a power cable thread , no need to clutter this thread up.


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post #8296 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 07:01 AM
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You want better power for a projector look at a voltage regulator, UPS or a balanced power transformer. A foot or two of cable isn't going to change anything compared to the wire you had going through your wall before it. If you think power cords make that much difference you should have your entire house rewired, but you'd still get more benefits from something like a voltage regulator.

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post #8297 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Not to belabor my point. but you can design a lot of filtering into a power cable if you want to.

You could but not sure what purpose it would serve with most electronic equipment. For quite a few years most equipment has used switched mode power supplies. They produce a lot of noise and most have line filters on the input side. They are, for the most part, immune to brown-outs and incoming noise

3 printers, 2 computers, NAS drives and video monitor all connected at one duplex did produce enough line noise so it interfered sometimes with a X-10 controller at the same duplex. A XPF 20A filter was inserted ahead of all these switched mode devices which eliminated the noise problem. Have used the XPPF filters on single devices that caused problems for X-10 controllers. In the main equipment area I have all switched mode wall warts plugged into a power strip which is plugged into a XPPF filter. X-10 modules is the only devices that has been bothered by line noise.

Expensive filtered power cables smells of snake oil. If one has line noise issues then something like the X-10 filter devices (or equivalents) should fix you right up. X-10 is readily available on flea bay and probably cheaper than X-10 direct.
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post #8298 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 08:55 AM
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I am not arguing that it would make a difference on a projector. just that you could change the noise level going in from the mains by using a power cord that deliberating was designed as a filter.

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post #8299 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 09:24 AM
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That was understood. IMO, it is beyond absurd to purchase a $3000.00 power cable that gets plugged into xx to yy feet of NM-B12 or NM-B14. I would wager the X-10 filters are more effective than the referenced power cable for filtering noise on the line.
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post #8300 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 09:45 AM
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There is line to neutral and line to ground noise (and line to line noise for 220V supplies). Each is affected by impedances in the power line (including power transformers, etc), power cord, and the projector power supply. The noise could be coming from the power company feed or the projector power supply could be generating noise and sending it back towards the power company (it's likely both). Changing power cords may have some affect depending on a lot of variables we don't know. But even if the new cord provides some sort of "filtering" the only way I could see this manifesting itself in the video images is some reduction of noise in the image that was due to these sources (i.e., noise in the video source would not be affected by any line cord). It certainly isn't going to affect grayscale, gamma, gamut, sharpness, saturation, contrast, luminance, etc.

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Originally Posted by home theater View Post

I hear this argument a lot regarding interconnect cables, video cables,speaker cables etc. Well cables do make a difference. In most systems there is an obvious improvement. To be quite frank everything you do in your room effects picture and the audio quality. I know this is going to offend most skeptics but what I suggest is trying this out yourself and see if you see or hear the improvements in your own system.

I think you should learn basics principles about science before using the word "Skeptic" this way

Ignorance is very daring.
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post #8302 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 12:34 PM
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I think you should learn basics principles about science before using the word "Skeptic" this way

Ignorance areis very daring.[/quote
What are you afraid of? Just try it. I dare you.
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post #8303 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 12:53 PM
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Perhaps this discussion can happen here, so as to not completely de rail this fantastic thread about projectors.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1529938/can-a-power-cord-improve-picture-quality

James Reid:D
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post #8304 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 01:06 PM
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Perhaps this discussion can happen here, so as to not completely de rail this fantastic thread about projectors.

+1. I've filtered out this discussion by wearing my tin foil hat............. wink.gif
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post #8305 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 01:37 PM
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+1. I've filtered out this discussion by wearing my tin foil hat............. wink.gif
Craig that power cable is calling your name. Can you not hear it.
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post #8306 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

There is line to neutral and line to ground noise (and line to line noise for 220V supplies). Each is affected by impedances in the power line (including power transformers, etc), power cord, and the projector power supply. The noise could be coming from the power company feed or the projector power supply could be generating noise and sending it back towards the power company (it's likely both). Changing power cords may have some affect depending on a lot of variables we don't know. But even if the new cord provides some sort of "filtering" the only way I could see this manifesting itself in the video images is some reduction of noise in the image that was due to these sources (i.e., noise in the video source would not be affected by any line cord). It certainly isn't going to affect grayscale, gamma, gamut, sharpness, saturation, contrast, luminance, etc.

i suspect that's what a power cord designed as a noise filter would do. Ideally we would want the power input to be a pure sign wave at 60 cycles at 120V or whatever. Though there hs been instances with respect to AC motors where different waves result in smoother motor operation.

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post #8307 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I can help answer as I had the 600ES for 2 months and then switched to the 55ES (due to financial situations).

2) I have not noticed a perceivable difference between low lamp when using Reference preset with 2.2 gamma, d65, and R709. Same goes for high lamp in 3D. Both, to my eyes, are about on par in the brightness department.

3) I do not hear the 55ES at my seat, just like I didn't hear the 600ES at my seat. They are both as audible (or inaudible) as the other.

Hope that helps.


Sorry, dont agree on number 3 - the 500/600ES is louder then the 55 in high lamp mode ( and probely too in low mode , but I didnt test that )

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post #8308 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 02:55 PM
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+1. I've filtered out this discussion by wearing my tin foil hat............. wink.gif




biggrin.gif


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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Not to belabor my point. but you can design a lot of filtering into a power cable if you want to.

Obfuscatory; any difference is then due to the filter, not the cable.

Noah
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post #8310 of 8764 Old 05-01-2014, 10:35 PM
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Anyone know how a Sim2 C3X Lumis HOST woulkd compare with say the X700 or the VW500/600?
I know the blacks are probably less but how much less?

What would be better?
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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