Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 292 - AVS Forum
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post #8731 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Thanks for that.

I enjoyed the link to Mayer's home audition. It's very interesting to read such an old discussion of 4K on the forum. I didn't realise it was even on the radar back then.
I read through that whole thread last night, amazing discussing nearly 8 years ago!

someone mentioned 'lots of 4K competition' coming soon in a different thread, but not likely this year. From the rumors, the Epson will be another 'faux 4k' setup similar to e-shift and we don't know yet if JVC will do it this year since they have no access to 4K content at this time.

I'm anxious to see what they have in the pipeline, I still use my RS55 and X35 for my dark sci-fi and concerts. I will likely get rid of these and pick up whatever JVC has in the fall since I skipped 2 gens. My guess is the next e-shift models will have some modifications to the e-shift and the iris. I'm not sure what else they can improve on this chassis, it's pretty darn good as it is.
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post #8732 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 07:36 AM
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Thanks again, Zombie. Guess I'll: 1) start saving for the 4910; 2) start working on the lady of the house to prepare for the extra expense soon; and 3) keep in close contact with Mike @avs for the best deals currently and/or B stocks.

Given that we're nearing September already, is it prudent to hold off for a few more weeks and see what the post-CES action will be? In the meantime, I'm planning to sell my 2000U through various online outlets....as soon as I can figure out a "fair" price.

Thanks again for all the information and recommendations.
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post #8733 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
The sacramental question still stands. If you put RS5 (PD8150) and LS10i side-by-side and brightness-match them, what would be the difference? Besides obvious lack of RBE on the 3-chipper? If contrast is the same, sharpness is about the same (LS10i's convergence errors are compensated by a higher quality lens)... what would be the difference? Will the colors be perceptibly better on LS10i? Will the motion handling be better? Are there less dithering noise on LS10i? Will we ever get answers to these questions?
To brightness match you could use the ND filter, its the only way to get close because neither unit has a manual iris. With my ND filter its pretty close to the PD8150 in brightness in economy lamp mode. When set up like this, darker scenes are much better on the LS-10i because the ND filter is in place. The nicer lens gives a bit more clarity to the image, it looks like higher ANSI contrast (I haven't measured), and no CA. Overall the image is definitely better than the single chip PD8150. You also have the ability to fill a MUCH larger screen with the LS-10i. The motorized lens functions on this unit are great too over the PD8150.

Last edited by Seegs108; 07-19-2014 at 01:34 PM.
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post #8734 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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it's time for some calibration software, it looks pretty expensive for the calman license to support the CL200. Plus it still needs to be calibrated.

http://studio.spectracal.com/supported-hardware

it's probably cheaper to pick up a calibrated Display 3 pro + CP

I'd like to see the color gamut saturation @ 25/50/75
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post #8735 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 02:02 PM
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You can email them and get a meter addon to one of the cheaper "home" (non-professional) versions of calman. I don't think I'm going to do this though. I'm not a stickler when it comes to color and knowing it's already extremely close out of the box is good enough for me.
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post #8736 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm mainly using it for greyscale and gamma adjustments. as I progress with darkening my room, i'm more interested now in gamma settings. The JVC's with a BT. 1886 cal looks great.

the runco / jvc combo should hold you over for quite a while. Is there any left in the stable besides the close range runco LED? I have to thin out the heard, it's the 2 JVC's, VW1100, Sharp 30K and the DC4 Planar. I'll probably sell one of the JVC's soon, both have around 300 hours.

it's a good thing there a support system here for those with front projector OCD.
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post #8737 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
When set up like this, darker scenes are much better on the LS-10i because the ND filter is in place.
ND filter cuts down black as much as it does whites. It doesn't boost contrast. So I don't see why it should have better darker scenes if they're brightness-matched. So it's still very fuzzy to me - what's the huge benefit of a 3-chip DLP besides absence of RBE and more lumen.
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Is there any left in the stable besides the close range runco LED?
You might try looking at some Projectiondesign 2-lamp 0.95" 3D DLP projectors. Or try finding a Samsung SP-A900B, it should be even better than Planar PD8170.
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post #8738 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
ND filter cuts down black as much as it does whites. It doesn't boost contrast. So I don't see why it should have better darker scenes if they're brightness-matched. So it's still very fuzzy to me - what's the huge benefit of a 3-chip DLP besides absence of RBE and more lumen.
You might try looking at some Projectiondesign 2-lamp 0.95" 3D DLP projectors. Or try finding a Samsung SP-A900B, it should be even better than Planar PD8170.
I'm not saying contrast is boosted, I'm saying that it makes black levels and all gradations from black to white less bright. Without the ND filter in place black level is about the same as the PD8150 so with the ND filter in place it becomes that much darker. With the ND filter in place it's the best black level performance I've seen from a DLP projector. The peak white brightness, with the ND filter in place, is about the same as the PD8150 in economy lamp mode.

So are you trying to say that the PD8150 has the same level of performance as the LS-10i? I can say the overall image is nicer and I have a lot of first hand experience to make that statement. Native and dynamic contrast is higher, it has a better lens, better image processing, cleaner image, image clarity is a step up. it's quieter, has a lot more light output, no RBE, better ANSI contrast, motorized optics, ect. The sum of the parts makes the image and experience a lot nicer. If you're on a smaller screen, the use of an ND filter makes the experience even better. Contrast performance stays the same, but the dynamic range shifts lower to favor darker material. That's something you can't really do with the PD8150 or any of it's variants. I don't think it's bright enough to do this unless you're using an extremely small screen. This projector is not just a "brighter PD8150". Every aspect of image quality is visibly a step above the PD8150.

Last edited by Seegs108; 07-19-2014 at 03:56 PM.
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post #8739 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 03:49 PM
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Another thing about "sharpness" on the LS-10i. I was curious what the pixel structure was going to look like. To my surprise it looks just like a single chip DLP, in that, text doesn't look "fat" like it does on the JVCs. Edges are well defined just like they are on single chip DLPs. I wasn't sure what to expect in this regard and if three images overlapping was going to effect this aspect of something I like about single chip DLP.
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post #8740 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
You might try looking at some Projectiondesign 2-lamp 0.95" 3D DLP projectors. Or try finding a Samsung SP-A900B, it should be even better than Planar PD8170.
I have my eye on a 3D DP model but I don't want to be disappointed with the contrast in 3D.

I'm done with 2D DLP's for a while, remember I have a Sony VW1100 here which is no chump projector. On a 4K desktop, the lens will resolve 8 point windows fonts with precision and no CA on all 4 corners. very impressive. which it better be given the investment into the ARC lens.

low APL contrast performance is the achilles heal of these DLP's. especially in a black pit of a room it's going to stand out. Many have stated the flagship Sim2's can handle this well, so if I came across one of those I would be all over it.
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post #8741 of 8756 Old 07-19-2014, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
My guess is the next e-shift models will have some modifications to the e-shift and the iris. I'm not sure what else they can improve on this chassis, it's pretty darn good as it is.
I'll be very interested to hear what you think of the 3D on the next generation of JVCs. If the 3D is like the DLPs' 3D and JVC moves to laser then I'm in.
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post #8742 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I'm not saying contrast is boosted, I'm saying that it makes black levels and all gradations from black to white less bright. Without the ND filter in place black level is about the same as the PD8150 so with the ND filter in place it becomes that much darker. With the ND filter in place it's the best black level performance I've seen from a DLP projector. The peak white brightness, with the ND filter in place, is about the same as the PD8150 in economy lamp mode.
Sorry, but I don't see any logic here. You have personally measured contrast numbers for LS10i and wrote them here: native 3,000:1, dynamic 13,000:1. Previously Zombie has measured his upgraded PD8130 unit, I will quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
it definitely made a difference with just the swap, not huge, but it's there. before the swap, native was ~ 3000:1, now it's 4500:1. Dynamic was ~ 9K:1, now it's ~14.5K:1 (cine3home measure 11700:1 on the 8150).
So let's assume for simplicity that both projector's contrast is equal. Then you match brightness with a ND filter. So contrast and brightness is the same. Please, explain again why should LS10i have darker blacks.
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So are you trying to say that the PD8150 has the same level of performance as the LS-10i? I can say the overall image is nicer and I have a lot of first hand experience to make that statement.
Of course I'm not saying anything like that since I haven't seen LS10i. I believe it looks better to you now compared to the image you remember PD8150 had. I'm just saying that to put psychological effects aside one must have both projectors side-by-side to compare objectively.
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post #8743 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 01:28 AM
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I read through that whole thread last night, amazing discussing nearly 8 years ago!

someone mentioned 'lots of 4K competition' coming soon in a different thread, but not likely this year. From the rumors, the Epson will be another 'faux 4k' setup similar to e-shift and we don't know yet if JVC will do it this year since they have no access to 4K content at this time.

I'm anxious to see what they have in the pipeline, I still use my RS55 and X35 for my dark sci-fi and concerts. I will likely get rid of these and pick up whatever JVC has in the fall since I skipped 2 gens. My guess is the next e-shift models will have some modifications to the e-shift and the iris. I'm not sure what else they can improve on this chassis, it's pretty darn good as it is.
same here with my x35 and owning the epson prior, both for excellent result. do wonder too what might come this year with cedia and then ces. jvc typically do an annual release every cedia so wonder if they'll have anything there.

no interest with faux 4k here. and also if there is to be 4k projector. with the 4k blu-ray format still not released leaves me wondering if 4k projector release would just be half baked needing revision once 4k content does come along. I understand 4k blu-ray will have wider colour space plus ability for 21:9 all of which would impact on projector tech imagine.

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post #8744 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
Sorry, but I don't see any logic here. You have personally measured contrast numbers for LS10i and wrote them here: native 3,000:1, dynamic 13,000:1. Previously Zombie has measured his upgraded PD8130 unit, I will quote:

So let's assume for simplicity that both projector's contrast is equal. Then you match brightness with a ND filter. So contrast and brightness is the same. Please, explain again why should LS10i have darker blacks.
Of course I'm not saying anything like that since I haven't seen LS10i. I believe it looks better to you now compared to the image you remember PD8150 had. I'm just saying that to put psychological effects aside one must have both projectors side-by-side to compare objectively.
Again....The ND filter has nothing to do with contrast. It has to do with shifting the dynamic range of the image down to a darker section. Also, and I'm not saying Zombie is totally incorrect, but there's no way he boosted his native contrast 150% going to the DC4 DMD. I say this because most numbers (IN82 vs IN83 for example) didn't get anywhere near as high as 150% increase. So if we have, for example, a dynamic range of .003ftL black level and peak white of 39 ftL, with the ND filter in place it cuts those numbers in half (at least that's what it's supposed to do) so we get a black level of .0015 ftL and 19.5 ftL. This is a dramatic difference in black level and something quite noticeable. Like I said before this doesn't increase contrast, but shifts where the dynamic range is.

Last edited by Seegs108; 07-20-2014 at 10:15 AM.
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post #8745 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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3-4K native is splitting hairs and imo not really impressive for such an expensive projector. The VW1100 has at least 3x higher native and likely similar ANSI and there is still certain content that an entry model JVC can handle better.

I was expecting to hear #'s closer to the Sim2. Sound and Vision reviewed it a while back and had some interesting info:

Two LS-10i features work to enhance contrast and black level: ConstantContrast and AdaptiveContrast. With these disabled, the contrast ratio is a rather normal 2,799:1.

Runco describes ConstantContrast as “frame-byframe contrast correction.” It’s effectively an auto-iris, monitoring the video signal and opening or closing an aperture to dim dark scenes and keep bright ones bright. On paper, it works great. While enabled, the contrast ratio rose from 2,800:1 to more than 12,000:1. But I chose to turn it off. The problem was that I could see it working: Brightness changes in the image lagged behind changes in the video signal. This pulsing is common with auto-iris systems, though ConstantContrast also had a subtle color shift associated with it. Other DLP projectors have a similar circuit, and I’ve turned it off on those for the same reason.

AdaptiveContrast is a real-time gamma adjustment, making brighter parts of the image seem brighter and darker parts darker. It’s not actually improving the contrast, just one’s perception of it — sort of like tuning the brightness and contrast controls past their nominal setting. With AC off, the image didn’t appear quite as punchy, but it was a lot smoother and more natural looking.



as my room gets darker, I'm becoming more tuned into iris activity. it's one of the reasons I still run my RS55 @ -11 and it looks great with no shifts in brightness between scenes.

by all accounts, it sounds like this models major benefit is it's light output, great color, lens, etc. I wouldn't trade the VW1100 for it, but if a Sim2 or a D-73D dual stack showed up, I might change my mind.
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post #8746 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post
Of course I'm not saying anything like that since I haven't seen LS10i. I believe it looks better to you now compared to the image you remember PD8150 had. I'm just saying that to put psychological effects aside one must have both projectors side-by-side to compare objectively.
I won't discuss projector comparisons unless they are in a direct A/B. There are way too many variables involved. It makes me nuts when I read a reviewer state that 'Model X looks better than Y model I saw 3 months ago'.

There is nothing as accurate to the eye as a direct A/B. This is hard to argue.
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post #8747 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 10:21 AM
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The DI is the same implementation and physical device as the PD8150. I'm not sure what he's talking about. The DI works very and is still one of the best in the business. After spending more time with the JVC X500 I think it's implementation is a bit better though, I attribute that to the already stellar native contrast. When the DI opens on a tough scene the darker portions of the image stay much darker than on the PD8150 or LS10i so the shift in light output isn't as obvious.

Also, don't expect the D-73D to look any better on contrast. Only the Sim2 models get appreciably higher native on/off contrast.
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post #8748 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The DI is the same implementation and physical device as the PD8150. I'm not sure what he's talking about. The DI works very and is still one of the best in the business. After spending more time with the JVC X500 I think it's implementation is a bit better though, I attribute that to the already stellar native contrast. When the DI opens on a tough scene the darker portions of the image stay much darker than on the PD8150 or LS10i so the shift in light output isn't as obvious.

Also, don't expect the D-73D to look any better on contrast. Only the Sim2 models get appreciably higher native on/off contrast.

I remember the DI on the jvc working on 2 movies. I really only see it working at the end of the movie with the credits. Hopefully it only gets better
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post #8749 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The D-73D interest is mainly for 3D but i'm sure it looks better on the SuperLumis.

The way I read Elix's post was, if the LS-10 is in low lamp and the Planar in high lamp with similar contrast #'s, how does it look noticeably better. It would be interesting to know the ANSI

I guess the real question is, does this one stay for a while or go like the rest...

if I came across an LS-12d I would definitely keep it, just for the 3D alone. I can't find anyone discussing it's 3D performance.
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post #8750 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
So if we have, for example, a dynamic range of .003ftL black level and peak white of 39 ftL, with the ND filter in place it cuts those numbers in half (at least that's what it's supposed to do) so we get a black level of .0015 ftL and 19.5 ftL. This is a dramatic difference in black level and something quite noticeable. Like I said before this doesn't increase contrast, but shifts where the dynamic range is.
why wouldn't this method apply to any projector? My VW1100 can crank out 1600+ D65 lumens. so the effect should be the same if I put on an ND filter in high lamp. The light reduction is linear, i'm not following how this changes the physics / limitation of the projectors contrast abilities.
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post #8751 of 8756 Old 07-20-2014, 01:39 PM
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I never said it couldn't be. I just don't think the PD8150 is bright enough to have one installed and still be "usable" on normal sized screens. You'd be forced to use a small screen or something with a particularly high gain.

I've said this a few times now. I'm not claiming it has an effect on contrast. I'm simply saying the contrast's range is shifted lower like I showed in my example you quoted.

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post #8752 of 8756 Old Yesterday, 04:35 AM
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For a while I thought I was in the wrong forums, was about to rip out a guitar and get some lighter fluid and see what I can do...

I don't use 3D ALL that much anymore, the movie 'Gravity' was good in 3D and that was about it, but since I'm still on a benq w7000 for 3D, the blacks were fairly unbareable while watching it (cringed).

I think I would like one of those Sharp's next or something equivalent, but I'm going to wait a couple more years (no hurry). I lost my OCD with projectors, not sure why, maybe because I had bad luck (bought the w7000 one month before the sharp deals came on, now that's a freaking bummer). Never could sell the RS-45 (gave up as best offer was $1500, forget that).

Still putting ridiculous hours on the w7000 mainly just for PC stuff, replacement lamps at $105 and getting 5000 - 7000 hours per lamp. Lamp is rated at 2500 hours, hah.


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post #8753 of 8756 Old Yesterday, 06:44 AM
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Jimmy joins the discussion!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The way I read Elix's post was, if the LS-10 is in low lamp and the Planar in high lamp with similar contrast #'s, how does it look noticeably better. It would be interesting to know the ANSI
You read it correctly. I am too waiting for Seegs to post some color luminance sweeps at 100%, 75%, 25% and 10%. Would be interesting to know how flawless these 3-chip DLPs get in terms of color reproduction.
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if I came across an LS-12d I would definitely keep it, just for the 3D alone. I can't find anyone discussing it's 3D performance.
People who own these bit $$$ projectors usually don't care about forums... Members in above $20,000 thread are and exception. )

If shutter glasses won't get better transmittance I'm afraid brightness will always be a problem. For most of us who can't afford 3000 (calibrated) lumen 3D projectors.

As an off-topic, how many of you 3D DLP owners are planning to get Oculus Rift once it's out?
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post #8754 of 8756 Old Yesterday, 07:29 PM
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Jimmy joins the discussion!
You read it correctly. I am too waiting for Seegs to post some color luminance sweeps at 100%, 75%, 25% and 10%. Would be interesting to know how flawless these 3-chip DLPs get in terms of color reproduction.
People who own these bit $$$ projectors usually don't care about forums... Members in above $20,000 thread are and exception. )

If shutter glasses won't get better transmittance I'm afraid brightness will always be a problem. For most of us who can't afford 3000 (calibrated) lumen 3D projectors.

As an off-topic, how many of you 3D DLP owners are planning to get Oculus Rift once it's out?

I might be tempted to buy a meter add-on, we'll see. After reading Cine4home's review of the Sim2 Lumis 3D-S (their top of the line 3-chip DLP just under the SuperLumis) I noticed something odd. They got contrast figures right in line with my Runco:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4home
The iris of the Sim2 Lumis worked well in our practice tests and controlled the light power so quickly that no disturbing picture pumps or brightness flickering could be seen. Also was abandoned in Sim2 it to abuse the shutter for "pushing" inflationary contrast marketing values, but put a moderate factor of 2 compared to the native contrast of the projector. In figures, this means: Depending on the configuration screen [throw] and the Lumis 3D-S achieves a native contrast ratio of 5000:1 to 7000:1. The adaptive iris doubled based on this, the dynamic range of 10,000:1 to 14,000:1.

This brightness linked to the projector with a brightness of 1000 Lumen to 1700Lumen what sets him also at the forefront of the achievable brightness. Eco mode reduces the brightness by about 18%, so there's still over 3m widths can be illuminated problems with him.

Brightness figures are also right in line with my Runco. The only difference being a 2000:1 higher native contrast. Dynamic contrast is a little higher on the Runco at 13000:1 which means the DI is a little more agressive. Now I'm not so sure it's worth even trying to get my hands on a Sim2 Lumis.

I put the X500 and LS-10i up against each other last night. I watched some various clips. One of the darker scenes I took a look at was in The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship Of The Ring. It was the whole Mines of Moria sequence. Surprisingly the Runco looked better for 95% of the scene. The only time the JVC looked like it had more contrast in the image was when the shot goes down the well in Balin's tomb and another shot when they first enter the room where the bridge of Khazad-dûm is. Other than that, the entire sequence favored the Runco. Both were brightness matched (JVC on high lamp to do this, Runco in economy lamp mode) and both had their respective DI's engaged. I also have about a dozen clips I've been using lately that give DI's trouble with flicker, clipping, and pumping. Neither DI has an issue with pumping but there was a lot more flickering on these clips with the JVC's DI and both do clip whites on certain scenes (more so on the Runco) but after looking at these clips I'd say the DI is ever so slightly better programmed on the Runco. I think once JVC address the flicker issue (as it happens far too much) it will be the better implementation by a good margin. Hopefully we'll see this fixed for next year's models. I've actually been flip flopping a bit when it comes to saying which is the better performing DI. On these "trouble clips" the Runco handled them better. But in everyday use I see the Runco trip up where the JVC doesn't and vice versa so really they're about equal in terms of finesse and fine-tuning but I think JVC could do better, especially since this is their first attempt and because of the massive amount of native contrast the JVC has over the Runco. They simply need to implement something less aggressive. We'll find out next year.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I put the X500 and LS-10i up against each other last night. I watched some various clips. One of the darker scenes I took a look at was in The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship Of The Ring. It was the whole Mines of Moria sequence. Surprisingly the Runco looked better for 95% of the scene.
This is interesting. It really takes me back to this thread. It just isn't enough to have two numbers - on/off and ANSI contrast - to have a full picture. AV industry is still in its infancy and we play with science like kids with sand. Each state their own perception and we try to relate to that. I hope in the future these kinds of measurements will be the standard for reviewers:


It shows clearly that projectors with low ANSI contrast and high on/off contrast have dominance in only the darkest scenes. Give DLP a decent native contrast and very good ANSI and it can beat current LCoS machines in intra-scene contrast on most scenes. The difference @ 50% looks low between the units but I think that the lower the numbers are the higher the slightest difference will be in perception.

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It's been a long time since I've had a PD8150 head to head with a JVC. What's interesting is that I don't recall things looking this close between the two. I honestly think that because the image is brighter (but still brightness matched) it's giving me visual perception of contrast performance being very close. There are plenty of shots and scenes that will favor the JVC heavily. But for a projector with about half the native contrast, and that half being dynamic contrast, it's really thrown me for a loop. I just don't remember the PD8150's image looking as if it had this kind of dynamic range within it's image. I think all of this can be attributed to the brighter image the LS-10i puts out. This is easily the best DLP image I've ever seen and it should be considering the cost. Just before typing this I had the opening sequence to Harry Potter 7 Part 1 playing on both side by side and the Runco looked remarkably similar to the JVC for contrast, but the JVC did still have the advantage.

With that said, I think there's plenty of praise to give the JVC too. For it's price point it puts out one hell of an image. Sharpness in video without MPC or eshift looks almost identical to the Runco. Text based stuff still heavily favors the Runco. Text on the JVC looks "fat" but has gotten better over the past few generations. Moving video obviously seems immune to this deficit on the JVC. Motion with 24p material looks excellent and is just behind what DLP can do and the difference in ANSI contrast isn't as prevalent in brighter scenes as most point out. Does it lack that extra pop the Runco (and most other DLP projectors) can do? Sure, but it's pretty close.

Cheers to both Runco and JVC. Though to get this level of performance from a DLP projector you really need to pay a lot more. It's kind of a shame that these DLP projectors cost so much. I honestly think that if I paired this Runco with something like a Stewart Firehawk G4 screen (grey base) I wouldn't miss a thing about JVC's stellar contrast advantage. Though, the 2D only aspect of the LS-10i is a bit disappointing.

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