Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 293 - AVS Forum
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post #8761 of 9098 Old 07-22-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Zombie,

Your use of several projectors reminds me of my speaker-mania.

Audio-wise, I'm a "speaker-whore" in that I've always loved checking out and listening to different speakers. Never could find one that fully satisfied, with one model doing something I like better than another. It wasn't long ago I had 7 different pairs of high end speakers in my house, until my wife (rightly) put her foot down. (And I had to sell some eventually for video upgrade money anyway).

I'm down to my home theater speakers, one set of classic hi-end monitors I have to get rid of (but having trouble parting with them), and one pair of really high end MBL monitors that I'll probably never part with. I've lived with mostly listening to the two sets of speakers, and yet....I'm hearing the siren call of a other speakers (want to try some Quad ESL 57 electrostatics in my room). I don't know how long I can hold out. An animal that can't change it's stripes....
You might want to audition the GoldenEar Triton One speakers later this summer (due out in August after several delays - the last one related to the flooding in Asia). I'll be auditioning them as soon as my dealer has them in stock. The preliminary reviews are glowing, as they usually are for GEs. A friend who owns Martin Logan towers likes my Triton Sevens, because of the refined electrostatic-like upper range, but richer and seamlessly blended midrange/bass. As a bonus, they're only $5,000/pair. Personally, I like the Sevens so much that I'm not sure it would be worth it to me to upgrade to the One's, but I've said that before.

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post #8762 of 9098 Old 07-22-2014, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Yes, I know the price puts this projector in another forum but I thought some of you might enjoy reading about the "world's worst projector". Maybe Zombie should put it in his shootout just for laughs -- apparently you can buy it from Amazon for $179 so really, what do your expect?

http://www.projectorcentral.com/fuge..._review.htm?em

Here's a taste:

"In the end, Fugetek FG-637 gives you an amazingly dim picture with bad uniformity and worst-in-class screen door effect. Considering this is a cheap projector, flaws like these are understandable. But then add to that the geometric distortion and overscan that can't be fixed, and the terrible edge enhancement that won't stay disabled, and you've got the worst projector we've ever seen."

Is it possible to receive a worse review?

it looks like another white van scam projector. One of the best bang for the buck projectors was the Acer 5360 @ $499 back in 2010. The 3D (using the Nvidia IR) exceeded some models that were much more expensive at the time (RS40/Sony VW90)

Geoffrey Morrison wrote a great article on $500 projectors just recently

http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-500-projector/

at the top of the list is the Acer 5380BD, the new 720P model w/ native 3D BD support. 33ms lag time so it's fine for a cheap console gaming projector.

so it is possible to have a 1/2 decent projector on a shoe-string budget. it's a shame the market is filled with such garbage as the one listed in the PJC review.


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post #8763 of 9098 Old 07-25-2014, 05:20 PM
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Watching my first concert in my blacked out room with my JVC X500 and my new Marantz stereo. Led Zepplin in NY City 1973. Remastered IN 5.1, boy this projector just keeps giving, really cool to watch LZ in their prime on the big screen. Also really cool to have a nice amp finally, I am in Home Theater heaven.
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post #8764 of 9098 Old 08-09-2014, 09:25 PM
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Hey everyone,

I'm just now finally checking out 3D on my JVC X700. I borrowed the Optoma ZF2100 glasses + BC100 emitter from a friend. I have a dnp Supernova blade 23-23 screen. It's weird, but the only time the image is bright enough to watch is when I look at the screen with my head tilted to the side. Is there a way to correct this, or are the Optoma emitter and glasses not compatible with my screen?

Reversing polarization from the emitter seems to do nothing. I see a quick flash and nothing changes. My buddy says they work fine for him, but he has a homemade white screen.

Would the Optoma ZF2300 + BC300 glasses/emitter be any different?

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post #8765 of 9098 Old 08-09-2014, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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it sounds like you are going to need the specific JVC glasses that handle the horizontal polarization. There is also an Xpand version that handles it as well, someone recently posted the model #, I'll see if I can find it.

edit:

x105-rf-x3

Consensus best 3D glasses / emitter for JVCs?

it looks like you can buy them directly from Xpand at a lower cost than JVC is selling them.


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post #8766 of 9098 Old 08-10-2014, 08:39 AM
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Too bad you are stick with the JVC's or Xpands with horizontal polarization. They are actually the same glasses. I and others have been lucky since the closeout Mitsubishi Xpands with the emitter for under $20 work great with not polarized screens. I have compared the Xpands with horizontal polarization and the closeout Mitsubishi glasses and see no difference in with my screen. I personally feel that the JVC glasses are way over priced.
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post #8767 of 9098 Old 08-12-2014, 10:50 AM
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Here's my next projector. 30,000 lumens off a HP 120" 2.8 gain screen in 3D should be just about right once you take the 75% light loss for 3D into account.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/30-000-LUMENS...d7f608b&_uhb=1
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post #8768 of 9098 Old 08-12-2014, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Here's my next projector. 30,000 lumens off a HP 120" 2.8 gain screen in 3D should be just about right once you take the 75% light loss for 3D into account.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/30-000-LUMENS...d7f608b&_uhb=1
If you are going to spend that kind of money, you might as well spend a little more and get laser and DCI.
New player coming for 2K DCI Cinema

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post #8769 of 9098 Old 08-12-2014, 05:11 PM
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Mike, are the specs and price finalized for the AVS 3 chip DLP Laser projector? Is this the ultimate projector for the next six or seven years? Any more info such as on/off C.R. and light output?
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post #8770 of 9098 Old 08-12-2014, 05:17 PM
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If you take a look at the thread, with the iris modification you'll likely get a little more than 5000:1 and about 7000 lumens at max light output. As you can see, this is for extremely large screens only. I wouldn't call it future proof as it's only 2K (true 2K).If you have a smaller screen a Sim2 Lumis or Sony 4K will put up a bright image with a lot more contrast. One of the drawbacks is that, even though it's a DCI machine, someone commented that it doesn't quite have the optics most DCI machines have. They said despite this, the image still looked quite sharp. I think the main selling point is the higher than average contrast for a projector this bright and the laser light source which means no costly Xenon lamp replacements every so often. If you have a large screen this could be an awesome solution. Probably one of the best options if you want high contrast (compared to other projectors in it's class).

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post #8771 of 9098 Old 08-12-2014, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If you take a look at the thread, with the iris modification you'll likely get a little more than 5000:1 and about 7000 lumens at max light output. As you can see, this is for extremely large screens only. I wouldn't call it future proof as it's only 2K (true 2K).If you have a smaller screen a Sim2 Lumis or Sony 4K will put up a bright image with a lot more contrast. One of the drawbacks is that, even though it's a DCI machine, someone commented that it doesn't quite have the optics most DCI machines have. They said despite this, the image still looked quite sharp. I think the main selling point is the higher than average contrast for a projector this bright and the laser light source which means no costly Xenon lamp replacements every so often. If you have a large screen this could be an awesome solution. Probably one of the best options if you want high contrast (compared to other projectors in it's class).
I viewed it on a 10' wide 0.8 gain scope screen and it looked very good on it. Granted you do not need this much projector to light up that size screen, but it it sure did not look too bright. Blacks looked black, not gray. In low, you can get the lumens down to 3,500.

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post #8772 of 9098 Old 08-12-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Mike, are the specs and price finalized for the AVS 3 chip DLP Laser projector? Is this the ultimate projector for the next six or seven years? Any more info such as on/off C.R. and light output?
Info is in the last few posts of the linked thread. Shoot me an email and I can send you some info on it.

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post #8773 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 03:09 PM
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Got the Lumis today



Going to take a pretty hardcore look into it tonight. The X500 is already sold and will be going to it's new owner tomorrow. It's my last chance to do a side by side comparison. Knowing I liked the overall image from the Runco LS-10i more than the JVC's the Lumis can only be an even bigger step up. I did get a chance to power it up for an hour and can tell contrast is an impressive step up over the LS-10i. Convergence is excellent and a little nicer than the LS-10i's. Probably right about as nice as the X500's convergence. Sharpness is noticeable step up over basically anything I've previously seen. The image has that classic DLP pop and motion. ANSI contrast on these units is a measured 1000:1+. Exciting times are ahead.
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post #8774 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 04:12 PM
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Got the Lumis today



Going to take a pretty hardcore look into it tonight. The X500 is already sold and will be going to it's new owner tomorrow. It's my last chance to do a side by side comparison. Knowing I liked the overall image from the Runco LS-10i more than the JVC's the Lumis can only be an even bigger step up. I did get a chance to power it up for an hour and can tell contrast is an impressive step up over the LS-10i. Convergence is excellent and a little nicer than the LS-10i's. Probably right about as nice as the X500's convergence. Sharpness is noticeable step up over basically anything I've previously seen. The image has that classic DLP pop and motion. ANSI contrast on these units is a measured 1000:1+. Exciting times are ahead.

Motion is where DLP still shines. I'll be interested to see what you think.

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post #8775 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 06:20 PM
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I'm interested in how good the on/off contrast is with the Sim2. What do fades to black look like -- a mediocre grey or a really dark grey?
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post #8776 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 07:09 PM
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I'm interested in how good the on/off contrast is with the Sim2. What do fades to black look like -- a mediocre grey or a really dark grey?
There's no way to describe it in words. You'd have to see it in person. The projector has contrast on par with the Sony 4K units. They won't reach a black level that the JVC's will. No other digital projector out there can match what the current generation JVCs can do. Sony's current cream of the crop is the 1000/1100ES for contrast and light output. In it's best DI mode the "auto-limited" mode the Sony has a realistic 40,000:1 contrast available to it according to Cine4home and I've seen ANSI measurements around 650:1. This is very impressive for an LCoS unit. Cine4home explains that the iris only closes down far if a black background is on screen for decently long time which is a rarity. But this is good because anything more than a 3-4x contrast dynamic iris implementation usually leads to excessive artifacts from it's DI. Here's a snippet of the poorly translated cine4home 1000ES edition review:

Quote:
Experienced home theater fans will now complain that a high-end projectors such "pushing" the marketing values ​​does not need and we give them right [1,000,000:1 contrast]. Indeed, an excessively strong closing the aperture in the image scenes no such advantages as the readings suggest. The engineers have by no means made the mistake to give the iris an excessive dimming. Bright picture elements appear more bright enough even in predominantly rich black with a high proportion of black. The iris closes rather only at full aperture almost completely black, which also provides for appropriate film sections for the desired dark effect.

Accordingly, lower is the "realistic" dynamic contrast at normal movie playback. Him we have obtained with different measuring methods and come to the conclusion that the adaptive contrast to around 40,000: amount 1. But also an indication of the real dynamic contrast range is by itself not very meaningful, since the reference to the native contrast of the projector is missing. Interesting is, rather, the factor by which the dynamic aperture these native contrast actually spreads.

To investigate the series section as a basis for Cine4Home Edition we therefore consider specifically the native contrast ratio, for which there unfortunately are no official data on the part of the manufacturer. He is also the zoom and the current position of the optical iris dependent. Our first test devices showed a contrast margin of 8.000: 1 (Iris In / Zoom max) and 18,000: 1st

Also in the series section, these values ​​largely confirm and only need to be adjusted slightly downwards. The native contrast of the VPL-VW1000 moves according to the zoom / iris between 7,000: 1 and 16,000: 1, which we apply logical as minimum requirements for the Cine4Home Edition. The adaptive iris increases this native contrast by a factor of three, which is a healthy conservative approach, in which the projector retains its superior brightness and no annoying picture pump with light / dark changes provoked.
By contrast (pun intended) the Sim2 Lumis has a native contrast of 7000:1 on/off and a little over a 1000:1 ANSI contrast at full brightness without any help from an iris. The Lumis can also be brighter than the 1000ES if you want it to by using a higher lamp wattage and opening the manual iris (yes there's also a manual iris). With the DI engaged I've seen measurements on the T2 lens between 32000-38000:1. For it being a dynamic number I'd say that both the 1000ES and Lumis should have roughly equal perceived contrast. But obviously neither will have the black level of a current generation JVC. With the JVC's DI engaged we're looking at a measured 350000:1 on/off. But numbers are one thing. Intra-scene contrast on all but the darkest of dark scenes will look better on the 1000ES and Lumis. In these mid/low APL level scenes the far higher ANSI contrast over the JVC's really helps. Plus the extra brightness that these units have can also give a sense of superiority when it comes to contrast. I've found that on both the Runco LS-10i and now the Lumis intra-scene contrast on at least 95% of scenes looks better on these units over the JVC. Hugely better? No, but definitely noticeable on a side-by-side viewing in a light controlled room. It's truthfully only on basically an all black background or image where the JVC's pull ahead, and I don't find many of these shots in movies. In brighter scenes the difference is more noticeable with these DLP units having a bit more pop and crispness/naturalness to the image and motion is still noticeably better.

This may sound like I'm hating on the JVC's. I'm not. For the price you get about 90% of the performance of these EXTREMELY expensive DLP/4K units. That's pretty amazing. What do you get for an extra $20000+? A more natural looking/sharp image, with better motion, better ANSI and usually better intra-scene contrast. Over all this extra 10% of performance cost's a bundle, but that seems par for the course in the electronics industry. If you've got the money and can buy the expensive stuff there are performance gains to be had and seen. But to many, 90% of the way there is close enough and that's probably the smarter decision if you think you could be spending that extra money elsewhere on more important things.
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post #8777 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 07:25 PM
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This is the classic photo Wolfgang (W.Mayer) took of the JVC RS20 (26000:1 contrast, which is where the current low end JVCs are for native contrast) vs the Lumis with it's DI engaged:

Lumis on Left and JVC on Right



Obviously this has changed now that the JVC has a DI. With the JVC's you can now have max brightness AND extremely good black levels. But this shows you that up until this year the Lumis could walk all over a JVC at full brightness.

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post #8778 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 07:58 PM
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My calibrator measured my RS4810 at 46,000:1 for native contrast (not sure where iris, etc, was set at).

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post #8779 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
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My calibrator measured my RS4810 at 46,000:1 for native contrast (not sure where iris, etc, was set at).
That sounds about right for the RS4810 with it's iris fully closed. But using this mode for comparison purposes to something brighter would be a bad idea. It would make brighter scenes look terrible on the JVC in comparison. This is why it's important to try and brightness match when comparing two projectors. The lumis in it's lowest bulb setting (230 watts) and with an ND2 filter in place should be right about where a calibrated RS4810 is in brightness with the JVC being in high lamp mode with it's iris fully open. Cine4home measures:



So 24000:1 at full brightness, with 48000:1 at max closed iris but as you can see the lumen number drops considerably. This is why the new dynamic iris on the JVCs is great. You can get the best of both worlds. Bright punchier brighter scenes and darker and contrastier darker scenes.
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post #8780 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Motion is where DLP still shines.
craig once you get the VW600 settled in, post some info if you can comparing the Lumis and the Sony. I'll go through my notes and send you some setup info.

your room is primarily blacked out, correct?


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post #8781 of 9098 Old 08-13-2014, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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now my that room is close to a black pit, I am seeing some details that weren't obvious before when comparing the various projectors. I think I am seeing the effects of the relatively low ANSI on the JVC's. My screen is a 16:9 and un-masked.

in this example on my JVC's, the black bar area 'lights up' in these areas where there is a bright light. it's not reflected light, it's coming from the projector. likely light scatter. The area to the left is still quite dark.



My DC4 Planar 8170™ is less noticeable and the VW1100 is almost non-perceivable. Both can have more 'punch' in the mid-APL scenes compared to the JVC. it would be good if they could increase this in the next round.

I still always keep 1 JVC is the room because I watch a lot of stage concerts that are primarily dark and it's hard for the other projectors to compete with this specific kind of content.
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post #8782 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 12:25 AM
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Careful now. There are a lot of "ANSI doesn't matter" people out there.

Now, I will agree that on/off does matter more in some circumstances, but on anything but the darkest scenes, as long as you have decent on/off contrast, great ANSI pulls through more.

Zombie that's something I've noticed quite a bit on the JVC's as well. The only full proof way to not notice it is to use an anamorphic lens. Without the black bars there it makes it impossible to notice it. That or a great masking system.
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post #8783 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I'm interested in how good the on/off contrast is with the Sim2. What do fades to black look like -- a mediocre grey or a really dark grey?
I had a test done with a sim lumis 3Ds and a vw1000.
And was not a compartment at all side by side. Did not test, but I bet much that my JVC X500 will be a hole lot better than the sim lumis 3ds.

And the thing a picked most at was the extreme grey compared to the vw1000, then in low apl.

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post #8784 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Careful now. There are a lot of "ANSI doesn't matter" people out there.

Now, I will agree that on/off does matter more in some circumstances, but on anything but the darkest scenes, as long as you have decent on/off contrast, great ANSI pulls through more.

Zombie that's something I've noticed quite a bit on the JVC's as well. The only full proof way to not notice it is to use an anamorphic lens. Without the black bars there it makes it impossible to notice it. That or a great masking system.
ANSI contrast does matter. But if you have poor on/off then it does not matter that much. And nothing is more irritating than grey black.
A combination is recommended here.
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post #8785 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
ANSI contrast does matter. But if you have poor on/off then it does not matter that much. And nothing is more irritating than grey black.
A combination is recommended here.
Isn't that what I just said?

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post #8786 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
I had a test done with a sim lumis 3Ds and a vw1000.
And was not a compartment at all side by side. Did not test, but I bet much that my JVC X500 will be a hole lot better than the sim lumis 3ds.

And the thing a picked most at was the extreme grey compared to the vw1000, then in low apl.
What's interesting is Cine4home measured only 14000:1 on the 3D-S they had in for review. I'm wondering if they made a few changes to the dynamic iris on the 3D-S? Every measurement on the original Lumis that I saw in the owners thread has been around 24000:1 or higher and these are measurements from well known and respected calibrators. Unless there's a huge difference between most units, something doesn't seem to add up. Numbers from these Lumis units (new or older models) seem to be all over the place.

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post #8787 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 12:55 AM
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Wink

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Isn't that what I just said?
Jepp, hehe to quick answering.
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post #8788 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Careful now. There are a lot of "ANSI doesn't matter" people out there.

Now, I will agree that on/off does matter more in some circumstances, but on anything but the darkest scenes, as long as you have decent on/off contrast, great ANSI pulls through more.

Zombie that's something I've noticed quite a bit on the JVC's as well. The only full proof way to not notice it is to use an anamorphic lens. Without the black bars there it makes it impossible to notice it. That or a great masking system.
This is what I have always said, and when I say it on this forum most members don´t agree. The on/off and very low blacklevel of the JVC is only shown in very low APL scenes that is very very few in normal movies. And the high ansi/silmontanious contrast of for example the Sony VW1100 matters more in most scenes. And the combination of high on/off and ansi/silmontanious contrast of the Sony makes it more dynamic over all than the Sim2 Lumis 3DS that has lover on/off and higer ansi/silmontanious contrast, so a combination is what matters most for a nice dynamic picture in most scenes. For the most dynamic and depth og field picture in very low APL scenes it is high on off that matters most and this is where the JVC´s shine.
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post #8789 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 01:23 AM
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I just spent the evening with the JVC side by side with the Lumis. My finding are the same as they were when I had the LS-10i here. In most scenes, even in particularly dark ones, I preferred the image from the Lumis more. The interesting thing about the Lumis is that it has unusually high native contrast for a DLP unit and this puts it in a unique position with it's dynamic iris. Typically speaking, when I watch a DLP projector with a dynamic iris on a lower APL level scene and bright objects come into the shot the DI will open and reveal rather poor contrast by today's standards. The Lumis is different in that, when the iris opens in this scene, the native contrast is high enough where you never get that sense like you lost a whole lot of contrast in the image. This is the same experience I get with the JVC's iris. Native contrast is higher so that sense of not losing contrast is even greater when the iris opens, but with ANSI contrast at 300:1 most scenes don't have that pop the Sony 4K's and a few DLP's have. Another thing about the Lumis I found interesting is that it's DI works a lot like the JVC's. I can see some flickering on occasion just like with the JVC. In this case, I still think that the Runco/Planar DI implementation is smarter in avoiding artifacts such as flickering. If only the LS-10i had the native contrast the Lumis had...
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post #8790 of 9098 Old 08-14-2014, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
What's interesting is Cine4home measured only 14000:1 on the 3D-S they had in for review. I'm wondering if they made a few changes to the dynamic iris on the 3D-S? Every measurement on the original lumis that I saw in the owners thread has been around 24000:1 or higher and these are measurements from well known and respected reviewers. Unless there's a huge difference between most units, something doesn't seem to add up. Numbers from these Lumis units (new or older models) seem all over the place.
I do not know if changes on newer sim PJ
But out of my reach to buy to expensive.
But I know the guy that have the brand new Sim, do not remember the name. Then better than the lumis 3ds. Maybe I take a look one day.
My x500 was mesured to native 39000:1 with iris wide open. And a friend with the JVC x700 mesured native 30000:1 wide open iris, so different. But difficult to say when not mesured in the same room. And I think that is the thing.
The lumis is fantastic in 3D, but in my head you pay to much for the total picture. And can get something better for less money.
But people look on things different and also see things different.
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