Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 295 - AVS Forum
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post #8821 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The Sim2 would have its dynamic iris engaged. That's a how we get a better black level over the older JVCs at full brightness. No one is saying the SIM2 or any other projector has a higher native on off contrast ratio.
Yes but only better in the extreme low apl call it shutdown to zero compared with the old jvcs then no info in picture. When iris in action then just some light like the logo and even much less, the grey pop out. There the jvc is best. This is crystal clear.
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post #8822 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Yes but only better in the extreme low apl call it shutdown to zero compared with the old jvcs then no info in picture. When iris in action then just some light like the logo and even much less, the grey pop out. There the jvc is best. This is crystal clear.
Have you seen both in the same room on the same screen? Even in low APL level scenes the Lumis is neck in neck with the JVC. The new JVCs with the DI do make for a better experience on the JVC with low APL scenes.
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post #8823 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Have you seen both in the same room on the same screen? Even in low APL level scenes the Lumis is neck in neck with the JVC.
Then you are very lucky with your sim and much much much better than the sim lumis 3ds. That 3ds is Not even close to a jvc not even a sony hw55. Maybe about the same. So I find it strange. Ps talk about low apl.hehe
Maybe you forgot the iris on the x500?

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post #8824 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
And to me, that is one of the major disappointments about going to the theater. The blacks are generally terrible. Theaters have compromises which affect black levels, but that doesn't mean the filmmaker intended the movie not to have 'real' blacks. Blacks are an extremely important aspect to image quality, but I realize everyone has their preferences.
Directors know their films will have most viewings in a multiplex or on an LCD television. By a long, long, long way - I suspect over 95%.


I doubt very much that any director will make low level shadow detail a key part of the image. Indeed, I strongly suspect they knowingly use the fact to hide all manner of sins.


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post #8825 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Then you are very lucky with your sim and much much much better than the sim lumis 3ds. That 3ds is Not even close to a jvc not even a sony hw55. Maybe about the same. So I find it strange. Ps talk about low apl.hehe
Maybe you forgot the iris on the x500?
It's not that I forgot the dynamic iris on the JVC, it's that I wanted to recreate that test. Seeing how the RS20 has about the same native contrast as the X500, I wanted to see if that image W.Mayer posted was accurate.

The DI on the current generation JVCs makes it so that this test won't work anymore, but if you have last years generation JVC for example and need to fill a large screen (which is when you'd put it on high lamp mode and open the iris), the Lumis will be able to do it better because of its DI and how much better it makes the contrast look over the JVC. The current generation JVCs make this a moot point because of it's dynamic iris unless of course you need to fill a huge screen like one a lumis can fill, the JVC can now look just as dynamic in darker scenes.

If you're ever in the US let me know and hopefully I'll still have the Lumis. I'd be glad to show it off a bit.

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post #8826 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It's not that I forgot the dynamic iris on the JVC, it's that I wanted to recreate that test. Seeing how the RS20 has about the same native contrast as the X500, I wanted to see if that image W.Mayer posted was accurate.

The DI on the current generation JVCs makes it so that this test won't work anymore, but if you have last years generation JVC for example and need to fill a large screen (which is when you'd put it on high lamp mode and open the iris), the Lumis will be able to do it better because of its DI and how much better it makes the contrast look over the JVC. The current generation JVCs make this a moot point because of it's dynamic iris unless of course you need to fill a huge screen like one a lumis can fill the JVC can now look just as dynamic in darker scenes now.

If you're ever in the US let me know and hopefully I'll still have the Lumis. I'd be glad to show it off a bit.
He better come soon because you not gonna have it long.
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post #8827 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
He better come soon because you not gonna have it long.
The only projector I'd trade for it currently is the Sony VPL-VW1000ES. So I'll probably have it longer than you think, unless a deal or trade comes up.
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post #8828 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It's not that I forgot the dynamic iris on the JVC, it's that I wanted to recreate that test. Seeing how the RS20 has about the same native contrast as the X500, I wanted to see if that image W.Mayer posted was accurate.

The DI on the current generation JVCs makes it so that this test won't work anymore, but if you have last years generation JVC for example and need to fill a large screen (which is when you'd put it on high lamp mode and open the iris), the Lumis will be able to do it better because of its DI and how much better it makes the contrast look over the JVC.

If you're ever in the US let me know and hopefully I'll still have the Lumis. I'd be glad to show it off a bit.
That would be fun, but a long way. Hehe
We can talk about this for many hours.
I know that your sim is great and also the jvc is great.
So I live it there. I have a look at the super lumis soon. Maybe things have happen on this. And the sim have more punch than the jvc and logic more punch less black even with iris.
But I stop it there.

Time to go to bed have a nice day or nigh man
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post #8829 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The only projector I'd trade for it currently is the Sony VPL-VW1000ES. So I'll probably have it longer than you think, unless a deal or trade comes up.
That's the only projector I can see trading that for too. I'm envious of your recent projectors. You must been getting great deals.
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post #8830 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 01:55 PM
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That's the only projector I can see trading that for too. I'm envious of your recent projectors. You must been getting great deals.
Normal deals and a angry wife hehe.
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post #8831 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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He better come soon because you not gonna have it long.
now that is funny... They barely get a chance to get warmed up before they are kicked off the island.
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post #8832 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 03:02 PM
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now that is funny... They barely get a chance to get warmed up before they are kicked off the island.

Ha Ha Ha. Yes, I go through them quickly, but most of them I know aren't here to stay for long. Most are here to test and then once I see what they're capable of get put back up for sale. This usually takes a week or two. We'll see what happens with this one. All this 1000ES talk has me thinking....

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post #8833 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 03:09 PM
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Ha Ha Ha. Yes, I go through them quickly, but most of them I know aren't here to stay for long. Most are here to test and then once I see what they're capable of get put back up for sale. This usually takes a week or two. We'll see what happens with this one. All this 1000ES talk has me thinking....
Me too, I'm thinking about getting one.
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post #8834 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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The forum and thread in particular feeds into the addiction...

it makes a lot of sense to buy a spare DC4 .95 DMD for the Planar 8170™... doesn't it?

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post #8835 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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This makes a lot of sense too..



don't stare into the ARC lens for long, it will make you want to spend money.

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post #8836 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Ha Ha Ha. Yes, I go through them quickly, but most of them I know aren't here to stay for long. Most are here to test and then once I see what they're capable of get put back up for sale. This usually takes a week or two. We'll see what happens with this one. All this 1000ES talk has me thinking....
Isn't cheaper to buy a plane ticket to zombie island
Then you can see the 1000es and bring the lumis
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post #8837 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The forum and thread in particular feeds into the addiction...

it makes a lot of sense to buy a spare DC4 .95 DMD for the Planar 8170™... doesn't it?

My PD8130 comes tomorrow. It's going to be a glorious transformation. My DC4 DMD is waiting for it's new home. Soon you won't be the only owner of a PD8170 haha

I'm going to use half of an LS-1 and half of an PD8130. I bought both at auction for parts. My plan is to use the "brains" of the LS-1 and combine it with the body of the PD8130 if I can't fix whatever the issue it has and add in a DC4 DMD for kicks! Some of the crap you find on ebay can make for a fun hobby project on a rainy afternoon. The final piece of the puzzle arrives tomorrow!! I think the only issue I may run into is re-calibrating the color wheel, but I've spoken to another forum member on how to get into the service menu to do this if in fact I need to use the LS-1 main board. Fun times are ahead!

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post #8838 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 04:19 PM
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This makes a lot of sense too..



don't stare into the ARC lens for long, it will make you want to spend money.

That array makes my 2 projector setup pale in comparison........

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post #8839 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 05:14 PM
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I am watching football on my X500 and it is so dam good, I ask myself how can it look better? But I know it can and it makes me sad.lol Joking not sad at all. I am however planning on skipping an upgrade this year and saving up for Christmas 2015. Thinking a super sharp used 3chip dlp would be a nice compliment to my X500. Maybe even a 4k JVC to replace it outright

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post #8840 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 05:54 PM
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Seegs,

Glad to see you are so impressed with the Sim. I've always wanted to see one in action and I know I'd love it.

How are the black levels of the Sim without the DI engaged?
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post #8841 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 05:58 PM
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Seegs,

Glad to see you are so impressed with the Sim. I've always wanted to see one in action and I know I'd love it.

How are the black levels of the Sim without the DI engaged?
The native contrast is around 7000:1 and then you can engage the manual aperture. That reduces image brightness about 10% so while not a huge amount it does give you a little more contrast. This is the only DLP projector I've seen so far that would look good without a dynamic iris. If you've got a smaller screen you could use an ND filter with it and cut the brightness down to get an even darker black level. The Lumis if definitely bright enough to warrant the use of an ND filter on a smaller screen.
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post #8842 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 05:58 PM
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Zombie,

I've noticed that "ANSI" issue you mentioned as well. I'd always seen scenes where certain bright areas seemed to slightly raise the surrounding black levels. I first figured it was probably room reflections (on my original RS20, when I hadn't finished room treatment). As I treated my room towards black-pit level, the contrast became more consistent. However, now even with my RS57, and black velvet hung on the ceiling, floors, walls etc, I can still see certain scenes where this happens. Since I mask off black bars I'm not normally aware of it. But a movie that brings it out most is 2001 Space Odyssey. You get these big shots of mostly black space, and then the camera gradually glides so that a bright spaceship, or moon/earth enter the frame and the black area starts to light up a bit. Given my room treatment at this point, like you, I have to attribute it to something happening in the projector.
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post #8843 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 06:02 PM
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This partly explains the picture I showed earlier with the Lumis vs RS20. The light engine and optics on the JVCs really need to be worked on. I'm hoping now that Sony has risen the bar as far as ANSI contrast goes, JVC will follow suit with their next-gen chassis/light engine. I hope that comes this fall (along with a native UHD chip)!!
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The native contrast is around 7000:1 and then you can engage the manual aperture. That reduces image brightness about 10% so while not a huge amount it does give you a little more contrast. This is the only DLP projector I've seen so far that would look good without a dynamic iris. If you've got a smaller screen you could use an ND filter with it and cut the brightness down to get an even darker black level. The Lumis if definitely bright enough to warrant the use of an ND filter on a smaller screen.
So, when you watch it without the DI engaged, dark movies in particular, you are not thinking "yeesh, this really needs the DI engaged?"

I'm just trying to get a sense of how satisfying you think you'd find the native contrast/black levels without the DI, and whether the distance in contrast between it and the JVC becomes significantly greater without the SIM's DI.
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post #8845 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 06:20 PM
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So, when you watch it without the DI engaged, dark movies in particular, you are not thinking "yeesh, this really needs the DI engaged?"

I'm just trying to get a sense of how satisfying you think you'd find the native contrast/black levels without the DI, and whether the distance in contrast between it and the JVC becomes significantly greater without the SIM's DI.
It's like watching the Sony 4K projectors without their DI's engaged. Native contrast is right between the two Sony 4K models. For most content it will look great. The darkest of dark material you'd want to engage the DI like you would on the Sony's. I'll pull out my Hoya ND2 filter tonight and see what it looks like without the DI engaged.
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post #8846 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 06:38 PM
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It's like watching the Sony 4K projectors without their DI's engaged. Native contrast is right between the two Sony 4K models. For most content it will look great. The darkest of dark material you'd want to engage the DI like you would on the Sony's. I'll pull out my Hoya ND2 filter tonight and see what it looks like without the DI engaged.

Would you say the DI on the JVC X500 is comparable to the Sim2 as far has not noticing it? Also just how much sharper is it then the JVC? I have a black pit of a room with a 115in unity screen, so a Hoya filter would apply, in fact I used one with my Benq W7000 to great effect. I guess I am wondering if after saving for a year and a half is the SIM 2 still going to give me the best picture in a used SIM2 price range? Which I assume would be in about the 10 grand range?

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post #8847 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 06:57 PM
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Would you say the DI on the JVC X500 is comparable to the Sim2 as far has not noticing it? Also just how much sharper is it then the JVC? I have a black pit of a room with a 115in unity screen, so a Hoya filter would apply, in fact I used one with my Benq W7000 to great effect. I guess I am wondering if after saving for a year and a half is the SIM 2 still going to give me the best picture in a used SIM2 price range? Which I assume would be in about the 10 grand range?
The DI's are comparable. Both are excellent. Both do occasionally flicker, but so do almost all DI implementations. Neither have an issue with pumping. It looks about as sharp as you can get. The Sim2 Lumis line are some of the best options out there and will sell used for in the lower 5 figure range.
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post #8848 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 07:10 PM
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The DI's are comparable. Both are excellent. Both do occasionally flicker, but so do almost all DI implementations. Neither have an issue with pumping. It looks about as sharp as you can get. The Sim2 Lumis line are some of the best options out there and will sell used for in the lower 5 figure range.



Thank you, just trying to build a list of potential Projectors, I am trying to gauge how much of a jump up it is from a 4000 dollar JVC to 5 figure Projectors. The jump from my W7000 to a JVC X500 was certainly noticeable. guess the issue for me is, am I going to loose black level, as a Sci FI and Fantasy fan I really appreciate the black level of a JVC. But there is a lot to be said for the DLP look and sharpness. Even my BenQ was seriously sharp. I think if the image was like 20% sharper I could easily give up a small amount of black level.

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post #8849 of 9505 Old 08-14-2014, 07:19 PM
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You don't lose much with the Lumis's DI engaged. It's extreme dark content handling is in a tier just below the JVCs and anything above extreme dark I find I like the Lumis's image better. I had the X500 up against the Lumis last night and watched quite a bit of darker material.
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[QUOTE=Seegs108;26579097]You don't lose much with the Lumis's DI engaged. It's extreme dark content handling is in a tier just below the JVCs and anything above extreme dark I find I like the Lumis's image better. I had the X500 up against the Lumis last night and watched quite a bit of darker material.[/Q

Thanks.

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