Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 297 - AVS Forum
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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP > Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014
Deja Vu's Avatar Deja Vu 03:17 PM 08-19-2014
Posted by Seegs over on the over $20,000 section confirming that his newly acquired Sim2 is up for sale:

"I want to check out a Sony next. The Lumis doesn't disappoint, but I'm curious what the Sony looks like and would need the cash if one comes up for sale in the near future. I actually have a chance to see one pretty soon. I'm always on the lookout for my next projector. This one got me up to 40 projectors owned."

He's certainly got me beat when it comes to the severity of our respective obsessive compulsive disorders.

R Harkness's Avatar R Harkness 03:19 PM 08-19-2014
^^^ Holy sh$t!
cardoski's Avatar cardoski 03:32 PM 08-19-2014
I am only limited by my credit cards as to what and how many Projectors I have.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 03:38 PM 08-19-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Posted by Seegs over on the over $20,000 section confirming that his newly acquired Sim2 is up for sale:

"I want to check out a Sony next. The Lumis doesn't disappoint, but I'm curious what the Sony looks like and would need the cash if one comes up for sale in the near future. I actually have a chance to see one pretty soon. I'm always on the lookout for my next projector. This one got me up to 40 projectors owned."

He's certainly got me beat it comes to the severity of our respective obsessive compulsive disorders.
Yeah, lately most of the projectors I buy are only here for a couple weeks then it's off the next one to check out. Though the list of ones I want to take a look at are starting to dwindle down. The Lumis has been the best projector in regards to overall PQ I've seen thus far. But to check out a Sony 1000ES, I'll need the cash to pony up for it. Anyone interested in the Lumis should note that I have it listed on audiogon.
blee0120's Avatar blee0120 03:47 PM 08-19-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The only projector I'd trade for it currently is the Sony VPL-VW1000ES. So I'll probably have it longer than you think, unless a deal or trade comes up.
The Sony is just too tempting.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 03:51 PM 08-19-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
The Sony is just too tempting.
I don't expect a big difference in PQ, the Lumis has the brightness, motion and ANSI contrast advantage over the Sony, but the Sony seems to have a little more on/off available to it. But, I agree, it is tempting. The prospect of 4K resolution and included 3D support is nice too.
Schwa's Avatar Schwa 07:19 PM 08-19-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Yeah, lately most of the projectors I buy are only here for a couple weeks then it's off the next one to check out. Though the list of ones I want to take a look at are starting to dwindle down. The Lumis has been the best projector in regards to overall PQ I've seen thus far. But to check out a Sony 1000ES, I'll need the cash to pony up for it. Anyone interested in the Lumis should note that I have it listed on audiogon.
Sounds like soon you can finally stop watching the projectors and can start watching movies!
blee0120's Avatar blee0120 07:37 PM 08-19-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I don't expect a big difference in PQ, the Lumis has the brightness, motion and ANSI contrast advantage over the Sony, but the Sony seems to have a little more on/off available to it. But, I agree, it is tempting. The prospect of 4K resolution and included 3D support is nice too.
Maybe a kind member can let you bring the lumis over for a shootout. But with 4k BD around the corner, I can understand trading up for a 1100es.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 07:47 PM 08-19-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Maybe a kind member can let you bring the lumis over for a shootout. But with 4k BD around the corner, I can understand trading up for a 1100es.
We'll know more in a few weeks at CEDIA if 4K BD is coming soon. I would imagine we'd see some kind of announcement there if it's coming out soon. My guess is that it's another year off.
Deja Vu's Avatar Deja Vu 08:07 PM 08-19-2014
Seegs -- I understand why you want to have a look at the Sony. Once you have, you and Zombie will be the go to people for projector advice since you've both seen pretty much everything. Personally I think 4K plus laser hybrid is next up to bat and that combination is going to completely change the playing field in the next year or two. 1080p lamp based projectors will be the victims and slowly but surely they will be forgotten as we move on.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 08:13 PM 08-19-2014
I think if JVC can bring up it's ANSI contrast and brightness to at least 450:1 and 1500 calibrated lumens with a native 4K chip we'll have projector nirvana. With the inclusion of already stellar native contrast, a DI, 3D support, smart sharpening, CMS, convergence correction software, and decent lens quality there will be few other projectors out there that will be able to match the pedigree of the JVC.
humbland's Avatar humbland 09:24 PM 08-19-2014
[QUOTE=zombie10k;26654097]yes my next plans are to hack some tubes into the sharp. Here are the 'High Contrast' and 'High Definition' pieces I'll be using.

I pulled these out of a ~19" color RCA Victor TV from 1964. helping someone clear out a house today, I couldn't resist looking inside.

[/QUOTE ]

Zombie, I've been away from this thread for awhile, but I got a kick out the vacuum tubes...
BTW, we're still enjoying our Sharp Z30K.
Since the last time I asked, you've gone through several more PJs. Do you still watch the Z30K as your "day to day" go-to choice, or is it relegated to 3D only?
I'm sort of intrigued with the various mods. Why not mod the Sharp to DC4 (like Coderguy suggested)?
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 09:33 PM 08-19-2014
[quote=humbland;26719802]
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
yes my next plans are to hack some tubes into the sharp. Here are the 'High Contrast' and 'High Definition' pieces I'll be using.

I pulled these out of a ~19" color RCA Victor TV from 1964. helping someone clear out a house today, I couldn't resist looking inside.

[/QUOTE ]

Zombie, I've been away from this thread for awhile, but I got a kick out the vacuum tubes...
BTW, we're still enjoying our Sharp Z30K.
Since the last time I asked, you've gone through several more PJs. Do you still watch the Z30K as your "day to day" go-to choice, or is it relegated to 3D only?
I'm sort of intrigued with the various mods. Why not mod the Sharp to DC4 (like Coderguy suggested)?
The Sharp uses the smaller .65" DMD so it won't be compatible with the DC4 DMD which is only in the .95" DMD size. There are graded .65" DMDs out there, but I have no idea what their model numbers are. I'm assuming the .65" DMDs in the Runco LS-10i and Digital Projection HIGHlite Cine 1080p 260 HC are the best graded .65" DMDs you can get, but will still fall short in contrast to the larger DC4 DMDs.
zombie10k's Avatar zombie10k 09:44 PM 08-19-2014
Quote:

Zombie, I've been away from this thread for awhile, but I got a kick out the vacuum tubes...
BTW, we're still enjoying our Sharp Z30K.
Since the last time I asked, you've gone through several more PJs. Do you still watch the Z30K as your "day to day" go-to choice, or is it relegated to 3D only?
I'm sort of intrigued with the various mods. Why not mod the Sharp to DC4 (like Coderguy suggested)?
I still use the 30K quite a bit, it's the 'fastest' projector I have for boot up and shut down, so I use it like a TV sometimes, turning it on / off several times a day. I still have 4 extra lamps for it, I don't think I'll use them up anytime soon.

my latest HT exploration is 4K gaming on the VW1100. I'm also still working on blacking out the rest of my room. the HT activities never end.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 12:30 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I don't expect a big difference in PQ, the Lumis has the brightness, motion and ANSI contrast advantage over the Sony, but the Sony seems to have a little more on/off available to it. But, I agree, it is tempting. The prospect of 4K resolution and included 3D support is nice too.
I like to se what you write when you get the chance to test the vw1000.
What I saw when doing side by side on the Sim lumis 3Ds, I was shocked that is was so EXTREAME much better. Because I was hyped up that the sim is the best you can get. Se the Sony we have a talk later
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 12:53 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
I like to se what you write when you get the chance to test the vw1000.
What I saw when doing side by side on the Sim lumis 3Ds, I was shocked that is was so EXTREAME much better. Because I was hyped up that the sim is the best you can get. Se the Sony we have a talk later
Could you explain in more detail? I've never seen an extreme difference in overall picture quality in any of the $3000+ projectors that I've had. Some have better contrast, better light output, better motion, better acoustics, better video processing, better dynamic iris implementations, but I've never had an experience with two $3000+ projectors that was extremely different. All of them have looked great and each having one or possibly two distinct advantages over another projector, but then again, I wouldn't call it an extreme advantage. The only extreme advantage any projector I've seen is the absolute black level of the newest JVC's with the DI engaged. Black level is typically a moot measurement with dynamic iris enabled projectors anyways as that level of "black" is never seen on screen with real content. The iris only closes that much when absolutely nothing (black) is on screen. These JVCs still have a contrast advantage in low APL level scenes, but not anywhere near as much as the black level advantage it has. This is why I would say the contrast advantage the JVCs have over other $3000+ projectors is better not extreme. I also only say "better" on the JVCs because up until this year you had to choose if you wanted a larger or smaller advantage in contrast over other projectors on the JVC's. With the manual iris open, the native contrast was only around 28000:1 which wasn't that far off of what other projectors could do dynamically with an iris (some could do more than this). So if you wanted a larger advantage you were forced to close the manual iris and this meant that brighter scenes were going to take a decent hit on overall image quality because of the large sacrifice in brightness hitting your screen you took to get better lower APL level scene advantage on the JVCs. This year the JVC's can do both, but other typical better qualities of DLP, such as motion and higher ANSI contrast DLP usually has, are still better but not extremely different over their LCoS brethren. These qualities can be apparent in viewing but does it make the picture extremely different? Perhaps the 3D-S wasn't setup correctly?

In your experience with other projectors where does the Sim2 3D-S you saw rank in performance? Cine4home gave the 3D-S a 1.1 (1.0 being perfect) on their rating scale for image quality. I've never seen them give any projector this score before. For example they gave the JVC DLA-X90 and Planar PD8150 a 1.4, and the Sony VPL-HW50ES a 1.55 as a point of reference for where they think overall picture quality on the Lumis lies and they've reviewed almost every high performance home theater projector out there. I just don't understand how you saw an extreme difference in picture quality between the two. For some reason they don't give either Sony 4K units an image quality value.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 01:24 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Could you explain in more detail? I've never seen an extreme difference in overall picture quality in any of the $3000+ projectors that I've had. Some have better contrast, better light output, better motion, better acoustics, better video processing, better dynamic iris implementations, but I've never had an experience with two $3000+ projectors that was extremely different. All of them have looked great and each having one or possibly two distinct advantages over another projector, but then again, I wouldn't call it an extreme advantage. The only extreme advantage any projector I've seen has is the absolute black level of the newest JVC's with the DI engaged. Black level is typically a moot measurement with dynamic iris enabled projectors as that level of "black" is never seen on screen with real content. The iris only closes that much when absolutely nothing (black) is on screen. It still has a contrast advantage in low APL level scenes, but not anywhere near as much as the black level advantage it has.

In your experience with other projectors where does the Sim2 3D-S rank in performance?
Take a look at the vw1000 or vw1100 and then I read what you say.
I know the outcome and you see it easy. And about PJ to rank the Sim.
vw 1000 vw1100 vw 500 and I will also say the jvc x500 more value for the money.
the sim is way over prized and in my opinion not the value for the money at all.
But yes much light and perfect for bigger screens.
I think the best way is to let you see this your selves and test this side by side.
If you can't do that it is very very difficult to go in details and say what is better. I have done that.
One of the most visible things on the Sony vw 1100 you will see is clarity in picture.

And in 3D the Sin lumis 3ds that I tested was so dam good in 3D.
and if I owned it i watch more 3D for shore. But you can get a Trippel flash simular to the sim for much less money I think.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 01:43 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Take a look at the vw1000 or vw1100 and then I read what you say.
I know the outcome and you see it easy. And about PJ to rank the Sim.
vw 1000 vw1100 vw 500 and I will also say the jvc x500 more value for the money.
the sim is way over prized and in my opinion not the value for the money at all.
But yes much light and perfect for bigger screens.
I think the best way is to let you see this your selves and test this side by side.
If you can't do that it is very very difficult to go in details and say what is better. I have done that.
One of the most visible things on the Sony vw 1100 you will see is clarity in picture.

And in 3D the Sin lumis 3ds that I tested was so dam good in 3D.
and if I owned it i watch more 3D for shore. But you can get a Trippel flash simular to the sim for much less money I think.


The amount of money they want for one is besides the point I'm making. I'm asking purely about picture quality, not value. You still think the 1000ES has an "extreme" advantage? If that's the case, then I think the 1000ES will make me very happy. I still have my doubts to this extreme difference. I usually try and stray from hyperbole when taking a look at a projector, but I hope you're right about this one.

The only thing that might possibly take me away from the 1000ES is if JVC releases a native 4K projector this year.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 02:18 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The amount of money they want for one is besides the point I'm making. I'm asking purely about picture quality, not value. You still think the 1000ES has an "extreme" advantage? If that's the case, then I think the 1000ES will make me very happy. I still have my doubts to this extreme difference. I usually try and stray from hyperbole when taking a look at a projector, but I hope you're right about this one.

The only thing that might possibly take me away from the 1000ES is if JVC releases a native 4K projector this year.
Biggest difference to me visible.
This is the biggest difference when doing side by side.
I will say it was big difference.

Sharpness when watching movie.
Better detail.
Shadow detail
Black level
Dynamic
Depth of field.

This combined gave me a much better picture in 2D.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 02:31 AM 08-20-2014
I better start saving money then.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 02:53 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I better start saving money then.
Jeep hehe. We can have different opinion but I have a feeling that you back me up 100%. I have the JVC X500 now running and waiting for my VW1000 that sony upgrades now to the VW1100.
I have no big hopes for a better total picture quality but everything is a bonus.


Andreas21's Avatar Andreas21 02:59 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Biggest difference to me visible.
This is the biggest difference when doing side by side.
I will say it was big difference.

Sharpness when watching movie.
Better detail.
Shadow detail
Black level
Dynamic
Depth of field.

This combined gave me a much better picture in 2D.
This is what we saw when we tested side by side and it is the only way to do it.

We even came back for another test because the firs time it was not set up correctly with alot of blackcrush and bad colors (the owner tried to calibrate it himself before we came), the other time it was professionally calibrated by a very experienced calibrator with high end equipment. This time the Sim2 was better but the overall picture in 2D the VW1000 was better. And the depth of field difference was quite big. As this is the only Sim2 Lumis 3DS I have seen it could have been something wrong with it and we only tested it at the owners house so we only had the two side by side 2 times for a couple of hours. But I doubt it was something wrong as it was a very good projector, but the VW1000 was better in 2D and quite alot better in some aspects as diddern described. In 3D the Lumis was quite alot better than the VW1000, but the difference was bigger in 2D and 2D is to me alot more important than 3D as I almost never watch 3D. If I owned the Lumis 3DS or the Super Lumis I would probably watch more 3D as it looked very good on the 3DS and you have so much light available and the biggest difference i 3D compared to the VW1000 was the lightoutput.

And the bid advantage the Sim2 has in Ansi contrast according to Seegs108 and many others I can not see, and I doubt the Sim2 Lumis 3DS has much higher Ansi contrast than the VW1000.

And I must say when I brought my VW1000 to the test I only brought it to have something to compare the Sim2 to and I was 100% sure the VW1000 would get a real beating form the Sim2. But to my big surprise it was the total opposite.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 03:18 AM 08-20-2014
Interesting to hear your guys' thoughts. So it looked better the second time viewing it? It makes me wonder if there was anything else missing to set up the Lumis properly? Or even if there was some sort of an issue with the Lumis. Even at the price I'm selling the Lumis at, it looks like I'll still have to save up a decent amount of money to buy one. The cheapest one I see currently is a used 1000ES for $15000 on ebay.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 03:25 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Interesting to hear your guys' thoughts. So it looked better the second time viewing it? It makes me wonder if there was anything else missing to set up the Lumis properly? Or even if there was some sort of an issue with the Lumis. Even at the price I'm selling the Lumis at, it looks like I'll still have to save up a decent amount of money to buy one. The cheapest one I see currently is a used 1000ES for $15000 on ebay.
The 2. Time Colors more correct and more correct contrast and brightness.
But for me did not do much. Was the same outcome the 2. Time to.
Dj Dee's Avatar Dj Dee 03:36 AM 08-20-2014
I think that many people protect what they have and understandable if you payed a car for it also, and both me and Andreas21 do not care about brand or technology or price.
If something is better we have no problem of saying it.
We have done so many tests side by side together and alone.
I hope that I can have my VW1100 some time more before something better comes for less money or more money.
Hope it's for less money because I do not have the money pants hehe.
Seegs108's Avatar Seegs108 03:54 AM 08-20-2014
I think that's the case too. But that can also be turned around on Sony 1000ES owners that argue their image is better than the JVCs. Both are good in different ways. I guess I'm just lucky I didn't pay full price for a new Lumis then, not that it has bad image quality. In my side by side viewing I actually liked the image from both the Lumis and Runco LS-10i better than the JVC DLA-X500's, which is why I already sold my JVC DLA-X500. I'd only say that the Sony is better if you have a screen small enough where the Sony can work too. But if you have a large screen (think 12+ feet wide) then I guess the Lumis is still the best image you can buy. I don't think there's anything else out there with high contrast than can do 2000+ lumens.
Deja Vu's Avatar Deja Vu 06:56 AM 08-20-2014
I'm watching pretty much everything in 3D now -- either native, studio converted or 2D converted to 3D by the Teranex. I completely agree with Seeg's assessment of there not being extreme differences between projectors in a similar price range, with one caveat -- 3D! If it's not DLP then the chances of the projector being able to produce stellar 3D goes out the window. Even between the DLPs I own there are many differences; however, they are not extreme. They can all produce extremely "clean" 3D meaning clean foregrounds and backgrounds (no ghosting); however, there are subtle differences in motion handling, colour, and contrast. Brightness counts big time in 3D but again there are no extreme differences here with the DLPs I own. I use a 2.8 gain HP screen, which helps but I'd still like a brighter image. My Epsons (non-DLP) are the brightest but for most material ghosting shows its ugly head so I don't use them very often.

Sony or any other manufacturer (Epson and JVC) would have to provide DLP-like 3D for me to have any interest and I don't think that's going to be in the cards for quite some time. I've been thinking of purchasing a Sim2 but with 4K and laser hybrid projectors fast approaching I'll probably stick with what I have until the dust settles a little.

I've read the Sony 4K reviews and the Sim2 reviews and my impression is that the reviewers actually prefer the Sim2 projectors (M.150 and Super Lumis, etc.) over the Sony. Are they all wrong? Maybe. Anyway, for what I want the Sim2 is clearly the best but unless they're giving them away I'm sitting on the sidelines for a year or two as we transition to 4K laser hybrid projectors.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 08:53 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I think that's the case too. But that can also be turned around on Sony 1000ES owners that argue their image is better than the JVCs. Both are good in different ways. I guess I'm just lucky I didn't pay full price for a new Lumis then, not that it has bad image quality. In my side by side viewing I actually liked the image from both the Lumis and Runco LS-10i better than the JVC DLA-X500's, which is why I already sold my JVC DLA-X500. I'd only say that the Sony is better if you have a screen small enough where the Sony can work too. But if you have a large screen (think 12+ feet wide) then I guess the Lumis is still the best image you can buy. I don't think there's anything else out there with high contrast than can do 2000+ lumens.
I have a 12ft wide screen (Dalite 2.4HiPower, though, with projector optimally located for it) with my Sony 1100, producing over 25 ftL off the screen. It is indeed outstanding.
DavidHir's Avatar DavidHir 09:20 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
I have a 12ft wide screen (Dalite 2.4HiPower, though, with projector optimally located for it) with my Sony 1100, producing over 25 ftL off the screen. It is indeed outstanding.
Wow, that is an astounding amount of brightness at that size.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 10:20 AM 08-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Wow, that is an astounding amount of brightness at that size.
The calculation is simple: (1000 lumens)x(2.4 gain)/(81 sq ft) = 30 ftL.
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