Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 298 - AVS Forum
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post #8911 of 9087 Old 08-20-2014, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Wow, that is an astounding amount of brightness at that size.
The calculation is simple: (1000 lumens)x(2.4 gain)/(81 sq ft) = 30 ftL.
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post #8912 of 9087 Old 08-20-2014, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
The calculation is simple: (1000 lumens)x(2.4 gain)/(81 sq ft) = 30 ftL.
I am not disagreeing, but just saying.

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post #8913 of 9087 Old 08-20-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I am not disagreeing, but just saying.
If I recall correctly both Zombie and Seegs have HP 2.8 gain screen as do I. Nothing like a projection sized plasma on low lamp! Shame they are not making the fabric anymore..All us HP fans are waiting for the fall to see if Dalite brings back the 2.4 but I am guessing they won't as it is a small market share due to is't mounting and seating requirements, not to mention the high light output of current day projectors.

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post #8914 of 9087 Old 08-20-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
If I recall correctly both Zombie and Seegs have HP 2.8 gain screen as do I. Nothing like a projection sized plasma on low lamp! Shame they are not making the fabric anymore..All us HP fans are waiting for the fall to see if Dalite brings back the 2.4 but I am guessing they won't as it is a small market share due to is't mounting and seating requirements, not to mention the high light output of current day projectors.
High light output in 2D doesn't mean much for 3D! Anyone interested in 3D should have an HP screen, even if only for 3D use. Even reviewers who claim they don't like 3D change their opinion when they see it from a top end projector throwing a bright ghost-free 3D image. There is still a place for high power screens, perhaps more so than ever. All those bright projectors won't be so bright after five or six hundred hours on the lamp. Once lasers replace lamps this dimming problem may be history.
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post #8915 of 9087 Old 08-20-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
The calculation is simple: (1000 lumens)x(2.4 gain)/(81 sq ft) = 30 ftL.
The gain is only 1.8 on that material. This has been measured by several well respected publications/pro calibrators. Also, that is also only 1.8 gain when you're on axis plus or minus 30 degrees and even more restricting is that the gain is only this high if the projector is placed very close to head/eye height, then the gain tapers off pretty dramatically past that 30 degrees. Most people with a Sony aren't using a high power screen and that was why I said the Lumis is still better for 12+ foot wide screens. There are a lot of restrictions with the HP screen material. I love mine but it's not the easiest screen material to utilize fully.

So, on axis (if your projector is shelf mount ideally), you're looking at 1000 x 1.8/81= 22ftL and it will go down as the lamp ages. Whereas the Lumis can do 2200 lumens. On a material like Marks (StuidoTek 100) you get a brighter image without the drawbacks and placement/seating restrictions, so 2200 x 1.0 /81 = 27.1. Obviously with a HP screen you're looking at a lot more brightness if desired.

This has nothing to do with PQ, but only to do with how large of a screen the Lumis can do over the Sony.

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post #8916 of 9087 Old 08-20-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The gain is only 1.8 on that material. This has been measured by several well respected publications/pro calibrators. Also, that is also only 1.8 gain when you're on axis plus or minus 30 degrees and even more restricting is that the gain is only this high if the projector is placed very close to head/eye height, then the gain tapers off pretty dramatically past that 30 degrees. Most people with a Sony aren't using a high power screen and that was why I said the Lumis is still better for 12+ foot wide screens. There are a lot of restrictions with the HP screen material. I love mine but it's not the easiest screen material to utilize fully.

So, on axis (if your projector is shelf mount ideally), you're looking at 1000 x 1.8/81= 22ftL and it will go down as the lamp ages. Whereas the Lumis can do 2200 lumens. On a material like Marks (StuidoTek 100) you get a brighter image without the drawbacks and placement/seating restrictions, so 2200 x 1.0 /81 = 27.1. Obviously with a HP screen you're looking at a lot more brightness if desired.

This has nothing to do with PQ, but only to do with how large of a screen the Lumis can do over the Sony.
Some good points. In my case the pj is on a stand, projecting just over my head. I had a HP2.8 for several yrs, and now the HP2.4 for a couple; I liked the 2.8, but think the 2.4 gives a slightly smoother pic.

I agree that screen gains are often exaggerated. Also, the Sony's output is ~1200-1300 calibrated lumens with a new lamp, but then falls off as usual. (I use low lamp for the first few hundred hrs.) The point is that the HP allows one to easily get >20 ftL with the Sony1100 for a screen as large as 12 ft. wide. More useable lumens are always appreciated, as will the the lack of dimming with newer light sources.
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post #8917 of 9087 Old 08-20-2014, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I'm watching pretty much everything in 3D now -- either native, studio converted or 2D converted to 3D by the Teranex. I completely agree with Seeg's assessment of there not being extreme differences between projectors in a similar price range, with one caveat -- 3D! If it's not DLP then the chances of the projector being able to produce stellar 3D goes out the window. Even between the DLPs I own there are many differences; however, they are not extreme. They can all produce extremely "clean" 3D meaning clean foregrounds and backgrounds (no ghosting); however, there are subtle differences in motion handling, colour, and contrast. Brightness counts big time in 3D but again there are no extreme differences here with the DLPs I own. I use a 2.8 gain HP screen, which helps but I'd still like a brighter image. My Epsons (non-DLP) are the brightest but for most material ghosting shows its ugly head so I don't use them very often.

Sony or any other manufacturer (Epson and JVC) would have to provide DLP-like 3D for me to have any interest and I don't think that's going to be in the cards for quite some time. I've been thinking of purchasing a Sim2 but with 4K and laser hybrid projectors fast approaching I'll probably stick with what I have until the dust settles a little.

I've read the Sony 4K reviews and the Sim2 reviews and my impression is that the reviewers actually prefer the Sim2 projectors (M.150 and Super Lumis, etc.) over the Sony. Are they all wrong? Maybe. Anyway, for what I want the Sim2 is clearly the best but unless they're giving them away I'm sitting on the sidelines for a year or two as we transition to 4K laser hybrid projectors.
That is why I test, because you newer know what side a reviewer is on. The M150 was for me a big disappointment. Why, test it together side by side. The sim lumis 3DS crushed it in every way. And the image looked flat and boring. And what I look for in the perfect picture is a combination of contrast,black level, ansicontrast,clarity, debt, sharpness and dynamics. All this was to me better than the lumis 3Ds. And believe me I was shocked. Then the vw1000...
But in 3D it was fantastic no crosstalk and great punch.
If I watched much 3D I have to have the lumis 3ds PJ.
The ultimate setup in a cinema. Sony vw1100 for 2D, jvc x500/x700 for dark horror movies and the sim lumis 3ds or the super lumis for 3D.
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post #8918 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
That is why I test, because you newer know what side a reviewer is on. The M150 was for me a big disappointment. Why, test it together side by side. The sim lumis 3DS crushed it in every way. And the image looked flat and boring. And what I look for in the perfect picture is a combination of contrast,black level, ansicontrast,clarity, debt, sharpness and dynamics. All this was to me better than the lumis 3Ds. And believe me I was shocked. Then the vw1000...
But in 3D it was fantastic no crosstalk and great punch.
If I watched much 3D I have to have the lumis 3ds PJ.
The ultimate setup in a cinema. Sony vw1100 for 2D, jvc x500/x700 for dark horror movies and the sim lumis 3ds or the super lumis for 3D.
Probably would not be able to afford that combo, after the divorce, because buying all three would be a problem.

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post #8919 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 09:09 AM
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Not many normal people can (I can not) , but it would be a killer combo!

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post #8920 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 11:22 AM
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Zombie has a similar combination. Sharp XV-Z30000 for 3D, Sony 1100ES and JVC DLA-RS55 for 2D. Killer combo.
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post #8921 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Zombie has a similar combination. Sharp XV-Z30000 for 3D, Sony 1100ES and JVC DLA-RS55 for 2D. Killer combo.
That I can afford it is only the Super Lumis I think is overpriced and if I really wanted it I could find the means, but I don´t want it enough as 3D is not important to me. And I think the Super Lumis shows a better 3D picture than the Sharp X30000 (even if I haven´t seen any of them), but it has a much higher pricetag. What I am waiting and have been waiting for a while for is one projector with all these qualities, but I think I will have to wait a bit longer if it ever comes...

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post #8922 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
That I can afford it is only the Super Lumis I think is overpriced and if I really wanted it I could find the means, but I don´t want it enough as 3D is not important to me. And I think the Super Lumis shows a better 3D picture than the Sharp X30000 (even if I haven´t seen any of them), but it has a much higher pricetag. What I am waiting and have been waiting for a while for is one projector with all these qualities, but I think I will have to wait a bit longer if it ever comes...
I would agree that a new SuperLumis and Lumis are overpriced for the PQ you get compared to projectors like the Sony 1000ES but it doesn't seem overpriced when you take into account other 3 chip DLP projectors. Texas Instruments probably charges through the roof for graded 3 chip DC4 DMDs. Then we need to look at Osrams Unishape driver and bulb, high end processing chips, high end lenses and high end light engines from Delta. Seeing how Sim2 only controls the software and intellectual properties and has to buy all the other portions of the projector from another companies we can start to see why 3 chip DLP costs so much. Sim2 doesn't manufacturer or control the pricing on almost any physical parts of the projector other than perhaps the chassis. They are at the will of several other companies and what they charge for their top end products which make up the Lumis line of projectors.

When you look at companies like Sony and JVC who have the capability to manufacture just about every part that goes into their projectors, you can understand how they can produce their products so cheaply.

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post #8923 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 03:16 PM
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I understand that, but if you compare it to a car (car manufacurers also buy a lot from other manufacturers) it is quite silly and Sim2 does not have great developing costs when they dont produce the parts them selves. Even here in Norway where cars are very very expencive you can get a ok car for the price of a Super Lumis not to mention what you can get in the USA. If you put that in perspective it is a silly price, I even think the VW1100 has a silly pricetag, but think of the developing cost for Sony and how few they have sold world wide. They are not making money on the VW1000/1100, but I think Sim2 makes a lot of money on their Super Lumis...

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post #8924 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I understand that, but if you compare it to a car (car manufacurers also buy a lot from other manufacturers) it is quite silly and Sim2 does not have great developing costs when they dont produce the parts them selves. Even here in Norway where cars are very very expencive you can get a ok car for the price of a Super Lumis not to mention what you can get in the USA. If you put that in perspective it is a silly price, I even think the VW1100 has a silly pricetag, but think of the developing cost for Sony and how few they have sold world wide. They are not making money on the VW1000/1100, but I think Sim2 makes a lot of money on their Super Lumis...
Like you said, the same thing can be said about the Sony. In the US you can buy an JVC X500 for less than a quarter of the price of the 1100ES and we don't see a drastic difference in PQ between these two units. Many actually prefer the image of the JVC because of the contrast difference. This is a similar difference between the Lumis and 1100ES. Though the price delta between these is much closer at less than twice the cost as opposed to more than 4 times the cost in the JVC/1100ES comparison. It's all relative.

The Lumis is also targeted for a different class of screen sizes as it can be used on much larger screens than the Sony. I don't think I know of a cheaper projector out there that has good contrast performance that also uses 3 .95" DC4 DMDs. I think it's the cheapest out there. The ones from digital projection, Runco, projection design, barco, ect are all more expensive. So in this sense, the Lumis is still a relative bargain. Relative being the operative word.

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post #8925 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the max calibrated lumen output on the sim2?


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post #8926 of 9087 Old 08-21-2014, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
What is the max calibrated lumen output on the sim2?
I don't have my Minolta back yet so I can't tell you what my unit is measuring, but if you check out the Lumis thread, most got between 2200-2400 calibrated lumens (the numbers differentiate depending on lens choice as does contrast). Most of the reported numbers in the thread are from Jeff Meier (pro-calibrator) after he got done with another Lumis calibration.

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post #8927 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Goodbye Sim2 lumis.. we hardly knew ya..


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post #8928 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 05:24 PM
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post #8929 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 07:54 PM
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Goodbye Sim2 lumis.. we hardly knew ya..

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post #8930 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 08:25 PM
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On the lookout for projector # 42 . Hoping it will be a 1000ES or possibly a 2015 JVC. We'll see what happens next.

All I have here currently is my trusty Planar PD8170.

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post #8931 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 10:52 PM
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The 2.4 screen is actually around 2.0 to 2.2 gain (within error margins) if you are "wearing the PJ as a helmet", not 1.8. Not sure who said 1.8. Though almost no-one will get 2.2, some might get 1.9 to 2.1. Anyhow, I get around 1.5 to 1.7 and I am not near exactly on axis, it's still a whole lot of gain...

Measuring brightness on an HP screen is difficult at different angles. The 2.8 actually falls off much faster than the 2.4 material, though the 2.8 gain is more like 2.7 to 3.0 (with error margins).



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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The 2.4 screen is actually around 2.0 to 2.2 gain (within error margins) if you are "wearing it as a helmet", not 1.8. Not sure who said 1.8. Though almost no-one will get 2.2, some might get 1.9 to 2.1. Anyhow, I get around 1.5 to 1.7 and I am not near exactly on axis, it's still a whole lot of gain...

Measuring brightness on an HP screen is difficult at different angles. The 2.8 actually falls off much faster than the 2.4 material, though the 2.8 gain is more like 2.7 to 3.0 (with error margins).

Acording to AccuCal the on axis gain is 1.88:

http://www.accucalhd.com/documents/a...een_report.pdf

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post #8933 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 11:00 PM
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On page 15 it ALSO lists the 2.8 gain screen as -30% at 1.82 gain on-axis.

They measured it wrong.



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post #8934 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 11:04 PM
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Be sure to send Jeff Meier an email telling him to remeasure:

Quote:
The findings in this report are based on some of the best instruments available
including a $24,000 Photo Research PR-670 reference spectrophotometer and a
$1,300 ACO Pacific Type 1 microphone. I also have extensive experience with
over 2,000 home theaters, several professional post production theaters and I
also own one that I use about 1,000 hours a year.

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post #8935 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 11:06 PM
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I dont care what equipment was used, look at what he stated for the HP 2.8 on-axis (he claims the 2.4 is brighter than the 2.8 on-axis, umm no!). No-one can ever agree on these things, regardless of what level of equip. was used. And no I'm not going to tell him he was wrong, everyone is wrong most of the time with these things.

I am not the lumens police.



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Maybe there was an issue with his sample piece? I'm sure he realized the published gain is higher on the older material and when he measured a lower gain on that material, I'm sure he double or even triple checked to make sure the test was set up properly and the results were consistent.

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post #8937 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 11:10 PM
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A bad screen sample altering the on-axis gain, come on. When you see someone take 1 bad measurement, it invalidates all of them. That's the rule unless they can know why the measurement was bad. It doesn't matter if it was the screen material or not, if he saw the crazy measurement he shouldn't have published it without testing a real live screen then, or he should have questioned his technique. So no I don't trust a single number in that PDF. I could say the same thing to any of his measurements, maybe it was the screen (since we know at least 1 was bad).

I dont think most people know how to do a proper test with a retro-reflective screen...
More like technique of measuring...



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Last edited by coderguy; 08-23-2014 at 11:13 PM.
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post #8938 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 11:13 PM
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I'm just saying, I've seen the "1.8" gain used on this forum all the time with the HP material.

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post #8939 of 9087 Old 08-23-2014, 11:15 PM
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Yah and it came from that document, I am pretty certain it's 2.0 to 2.2. And I also know that anyone stating it's exactly 1.8 doesn't disclose an error margin in doing the measurement, cause it's very difficult to get the measurement more accurate than 10% without a ridiculous amount of trial and error negotiating.

If you say it's 1.88, then I say yours is probably 1.82

Where did I get the 1.82 (from that "perfect document")...



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Last edited by coderguy; 08-23-2014 at 11:41 PM.
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post #8940 of 9087 Old 08-24-2014, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I dont care what equipment was used, look at what he stated for the HP 2.8 on-axis (he claims the 2.4 is brighter than the 2.8 on-axis, umm no!).
+1
He did not have something set up correctly.. you don't need fancy equipment to see that 2.8 is WAY brighter.

The below picture was one of the first 2.4 gain screens shipped and was sold as 2.8 since Dalite as a company had no idea the fabric had been changed
The sample is 2.8 and the test equipment is a digital cam with flash.. The differences in the 2.4 and 2.8 were so great and obvious I knew there was a problem just from what I had read about 2.8 in Tryg's review when I received my first HP screen. If you have a 2.8 take good care of it!

Other photos of the differences between 2 fabrics. Including a couple of side by sides 2.4/2.8 photos
More photos trying to figure out why my screen was not the same as my HP 2.8 sample



Doug

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