Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 304 - AVS Forum
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post #9091 of 9119 Old 09-18-2014, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I'm super jealous right now. I'm hoping to purchase my first home pretty soon here. I currently have an Elemental Designs A7S-450 and Danley DTS-10 with a Behringer EP4000 sitting in my apartment unable to be used. If I do use them I may soon find myself hated by the entire apartment complex.
Aw man! I don't know how you resist the temptation, LOL! If I had those subs just lying around; I'm sure in the midst of one of my alcohol induced loud music cravings I would have fired them up...and then had to answer to the police...more than once.
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post #9092 of 9119 Old 09-18-2014, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Hey Jason,

After MUCH research and back-and-forthing I ended up going with the Rythmik Audio FV15HP (you can see it in a couple pics in my build thread linked in my sig). It sounds great cranked really loud with music, as well as with HT. I have rarely heard port noise and it shakes everything in my house and has literally scared people at certain points in movies. Everyone is blown away by how much bass it puts out along with the two TC Sounds 8's in my monitors. For price/performance, I don't think you could make a much better choice unless you go the DIY route.
thanks for the feedback, it seems quite a few people like this sub for this price point. I have the perfect spot for it which will be visible. I like the overall appearance and will likely go for the piano black finish.

This will give me motivation to finish adding the other butt-kickers into my seats. I cheated and only installed 1 module in my seat 2 years ago and never finished the other 3. I love the BK's when they are tuned just right.


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post #9093 of 9119 Old 09-18-2014, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Aw man! I don't know how you resist the temptation, LOL! If I had those subs just lying around; I'm sure in the midst of one of my alcohol induced loud music cravings I would have fired them up...and then had to answer to the police...more than once.
On rare occasion I do use the A7S-450 at modest volume levels. The Danley is earth-shattering. I dare not use it....

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post #9094 of 9119 Old 09-18-2014, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
thanks for the feedback, it seems quite a few people like this sub for this price point. I have the perfect spot for it which will be visible. I like the overall appearance and will likely go for the piano black finish.

This will give me motivation to finish adding the other butt-kickers into my seats. I cheated and only installed 1 module in my seat 2 years ago and never finished the other 3. I love the BK's when they are tuned just right.
No prob at all. In all my research I don't think I ever read any negative reviews on it. And according to Data-Bass testing the results are impressive. It equals or bests all on the list except for the DIY options.

I really wanted the piano-gloss black version because it looks really sleek and modern, but I ended up going with the flat-black option so it wouldn't stand out in my room from screen and room reflections (didn't want it to be too distracting during movie time).

Definitely get those other Butt-kickers installed; those are fun when tuned properly. My buddy has some, but I still haven't got used to them. Every time there's a big explosion they make me jump a little, LOL!

Good luck and have fun on your audio upgrades.

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post #9095 of 9119 Old 09-18-2014, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
On rare occasion I do use the A7S-450 at modest volume levels. The Danley is earth-shattering. I dare not use it....
Do it...Do it...Do it...Do it...Do it...Do it!!! Hahaha, just kidding. Don't make the neighbors hate you. I bet it is tough having that beaut and not being able to play with it though. I would love to have a Danley setup. I wonder if I could convince the wife it was just a book case...hmmm...

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post #9096 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 05:25 AM
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thanks for the feedback, it seems quite a few people like this sub for this price point. I have the perfect spot for it which will be visible. I like the overall appearance and will likely go for the piano black finish.
After all that work in the blackout thread you're considering a finish for your visible sub that could reflect light?!
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post #9097 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 06:26 AM
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After all that work in the blackout thread you're considering a finish for your visible sub that could reflect light?!
+1! Zombie, even matte black will stick out in our velevet rooms. Piano black would be even worse. I have three flat black subs below my screen and I had to partially cover them in velevet since they were reflecting an annoying amount of light.

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post #9098 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 06:55 AM
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+1! Zombie, even matte black will stick out in our velevet rooms. Piano black would be even worse. I have three flat black subs below my screen and I had to partially cover them in velevet since they were reflecting an annoying amount of light.
+ 2 !!

Not to come down on Zombie's choice per se; I'm an audio head as much as a video guy, and I love speakers of all makes and finishes. But...given the context of this thread...

Once the entire front wall had been made velvet black my speakers, though a dark fairly matte wood, nagged at me because they were the only things visible around the image, especially during brighter scenes. It was when I covered them with velvet that I finally had that complete "room disappears" and nothing distracting from the image scenario.

Once you put a shiny finish (like Piano) on an object it really doesn't matter whether the underlying color is dark or not - that finish itself is made to reflect tons of light and will be shiny no matter what's underneath it. My friend who reviews audio equipment always has a new pair of speakers to the sides of his projection screen, and the shiny finish/piano black finishes have always been the most distracting to me.
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post #9099 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
+1! Zombie, even matte black will stick out in our velevet rooms. Piano black would be even worse. I have three flat black subs below my screen and I had to partially cover them in velevet since they were reflecting an annoying amount of light.

yeah I don't know what I was thinking.. i'm attracted to black shiny objects. (JVC-RS55/Planar 8170)..


after all this hard work I will have to go with the matte finish and cover the 1 side that may face the side of the screen. And I get to save $200.


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post #9100 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 08:30 AM
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The conclusion PC draws below about the LS10000's 3D just doesn't cut it for me.

"3D Performance. Overall, 3D clarity is quite good on this unit, and the very high contrast helps give the image extra snap. We see a tiny bit of ghosting on occasion, but we've never seen a projector that was perfectly free of it. The best way to describe it would be to say that crosstalk is minimal, and among the best we've seen.

As is true of all 3D systems, the light that reaches your eyes is cut substantially compared to 2D. But it doesn't cut light quite as much as most projectors. Let's assume you have the LS10000 set up using the middle of the zoom on a 120" diagonal screen with 1.0 gain, you can use 3D Cinema (the dimmest 3D mode) and still get 6.2 fL actually reaching your eyes. Switching back to 2D, you can run Cinema mode at ECO power and come out at 13 fL (within the THX recommended range) or switch to Medium laser power at 18 fL for a brighter, punchier picture.

Bottom line, if 3D viewing is an interest of yours, there is nothing about the 3D performance on this projector to object to."


Oh, really? Sorry but I'm out! Welcome to the lunatic fringe.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...ge=Performance
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post #9101 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
yeah I don't know what I was thinking.. i'm attracted to black shiny objects. (JVC-RS55/Planar 8170)..


after all this hard work I will have to go with the matte finish and cover the 1 side that may face the side of the screen. And I get to save $200.


Beautiful!

I have to admit on one hand it's a bit of a bummer having to cover my speakers with velvet as I love a good speaker finish. On the other hand, if you fit the velvet covers well it looks very nice, like the speakers came that way.

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post #9102 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 09:44 AM
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I agree with you Deja Vu and obviously the reviewers for PC have not seen good DLP 3D. I don't know where the statement comes from that they have never seen any projector perfectly free of ghosting. Well my friends at PC, come by my house and view my Sim2 Lumis and you'll be proven perfectly wrong. I have never had a single issue of ghosting or crosstalk on my projector since its inception in my home.
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post #9103 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 10:30 AM
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Yes Zombie, cover them subs or get out.

James Reid:D

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post #9104 of 9119 Old 09-19-2014, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post


Bottom line, if 3D viewing is an interest of yours, there is nothing about the 3D performance on this projector to object to."


Oh, really? Sorry but I'm out! Welcome to the lunatic fringe.
to be fair, he did say interest, not full blown OCD for perfect 3D...

someone has to run the L/R patterns on this model


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post #9105 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 06:20 AM
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Here's Art's video review of the LS10000. He seems impressed with it. Hopefully someone will send one to Zombie (AVS?) for calibration and then we'll get some accurate OCD feedback about how good it is and how it handles 3D.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/revi...ideo-overview/

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post #9106 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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if you guys wants to see some of the most intense 3D i've seen yet, pick up this movie 'Thunder and the House of Magic' on September 30th, 2014 from Walmart.

The same people who made Sammy's Adventure made this film. There is a significant amount of first person movement (think rollercoaster scene in DM x 10) that is a blast to see. They went out of their way to push every boundary possible. Our good friend JC would definitely say the 3D laws are being broken in this one.



bumping this post, it's being released next Tuesday for a low cost. There are a number of intense 3D scenes that can be used as demo material to show off your 3D setup. There is no mistaking this a 3D movie, they push every dimensional boundary to the max. The story is rather simple but it's fun to watch how creative they were with the 'camera'.


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post #9107 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 09:11 AM
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bumping this post, it's being released next Tuesday for a low cost. There are a number of intense 3D scenes that can be used as demo material to show off your 3D setup. There is no mistaking this a 3D movie, they push every dimensional boundary to the max. The story is rather simple but it's fun to watch how creative they were with the 'camera'.
Betcha It looks good on the new sim2 Nero 20th😃
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post #9108 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Here's Art's video review of the LS10000. He seems impressed with it. Hopefully someone will send one to Zombie (AVS?) for calibration and then we'll get some accurate OCD feedback about how good it is and how it handles 3D.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/revi...ideo-overview/
I'd be more than glad to share the L/R patterns ISO and at least 1/2 dozen clips we used in the shootout thread to see how it compares to the other current models.

I'm interested to know about the 3D brightness. How much (if any) does it drop when going into 3D mode? It's a bit of a crude test, but it can at least give some perspective before the glasses. Run a 100% IRE pattern in 3D mode (I have ISO's for this as well I use to calibrate greyscale behind the glasses) and measure the lumen output.

Historically, all projectors I've tested drop in output. The question is, how much.

@ Ultra150 - no doubt it will be perfect on the Sim2 DLP. They do little to advertise their 3D skills, they should turn that around and let us help them sell some projectors. I'll even discuss 2D as well.


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post #9109 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
bumping this post, it's being released next Tuesday for a low cost. There are a number of intense 3D scenes that can be used as demo material to show off your 3D setup. There is no mistaking this a 3D movie, they push every dimensional boundary to the max. The story is rather simple but it's fun to watch how creative they were with the 'camera'.
I ordered it when you first posted info about it. One more week until it arrives for me. Thanks again for letting us know about it.
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post #9110 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 10:33 AM
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Smile

I had a good look at the vw300 first sony show off in Norway after IFA. Not finished sample but the 4K material I saw that sony showed was just amazing. The best 4K I ever seen in fact. Then in 60 frames demos.
It was just a down trip to watch 4K in 24 frames later hehe.
I can't wait to watch 60 frames on my vw1100. But still have some issues after the upgrade.
Also the black level was good on the vw300 and amazing to show a demo from sony in 300 inch cinema screen. But I missed the iris shutting down to black. But a nice PJ for shore.
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post #9111 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 12:45 PM
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Millerwill


Yes, but that will probely not be a problem for a very long time, because there are zero movies,tv series or even Tv's, monitors or anything else, who have the colorspace for Rec2020 ! ( Im not even sure thera are any camera´s ? ). I personally think that people "wish thinks" about the much bigger colorspace, and forget it will take ( IMO many ) years to implant.


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Correct. People keep talking like a projector such as the VW600ES is obsolete. Heck, I think it is going to stay current longer than most projectors. It will be out two to three years before 4K BD is available and I bet it gets everything out of 4K bd for a few years, because I don't expect to see 4K DB's with 4:4:4 and Rec2020 for several years. However I do expect to be watch 4K BD on my 600 in a year to year and a half.

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post #9112 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 01:44 PM
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Correct. People keep talking like a projector such as the VW600ES is obsolete. Heck, I think it is going to stay current longer than most projectors. It will be out two to three years before 4K BD is available and I bet it gets everything out of 4K bd for a few years, because I don't expect to see 4K DB's with 4:4:4 and Rec2020 for several years. However I do expect to be watch 4K BD on my 600 in a year to year and a half.
That is true, but 4K is fun to watch even in 4.2.0 and for me most important is that blueray get very nice upscaled to 4K in sony PJ and it look very good. I use also my jvc x500 but can not compare the clarity of upscaled bd to 4K in the sony PJ. But yes I also think that when 4K bd will arrive. It will be 24 frames I think, and then for me upscaled 1080P bd with motion will be totally better for me. But that's me. If 60 frames I just say wow. And I hope that it will be the future.
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post #9113 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 06:31 PM
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Correct. People keep talking like a projector such as the VW600ES is obsolete. Heck, I think it is going to stay current longer than most projectors. It will be out two to three years before 4K BD is available and I bet it gets everything out of 4K bd for a few years, because I don't expect to see 4K DB's with 4:4:4 and Rec2020 for several years. However I do expect to be watch 4K BD on my 600 in a year to year and a half.
My $0.02

Right now we're about 14 months from the arrival of 4K BD (per BDA members/representatives), ie Holiday/December 2015. I can't speak for anyone else, but $15k, while something I could probably do for a projector, isn't something I could do every year, or even every few years. So today, if I were to get a VW600 or something similarly expensive, I'd have to keep it for say 5 years. Well there's a lot of uncertainty about 4K BD today, but I keep hearing things like it will be 10+ bits, maybe 4:2:2 (though I haven't seen that in print anywhere), HDR, HFR, and wide gamut. Of that, I think the VW600 can't do any. My understanding is with it's 10.2Gbps HDMI support, it can only do 4K24@ 8bit 4:2:0, no HDR, no HFR, wide gamut is a maybe. But anyway, all this is saying if I got a VW600 (or similar) today, I'd "have" to keep it for something like 4 years into 4K Blu-ray before I could really upgrade to something that could take advantage of high bit depths, HDR, HFR, wide gamut.

On top of that, resolution is, IMO, the least significant benefit of 4K Blu-ray, and 4K in general. I expect the resolution bump to be nice, and I'm looking forward to that, but what really has me excited are all the other things, higher bit depths to eliminate banding, wide gamut to (at least) match what I see when I go to the theater, HDR sounds quite interesting (not sure if it will be a big thing or a fad), and HFR to really be able to watch The Hobbit and Avater (and anything else) as intended.

Given all that, if someone handed me $15k today with the stipulation that I had to buy a projector with it, and had to buy one that's been at least announced, I would probably have to take that check to Sim2 for a Nero 3. IIRC that's supposed to support BT2020, and given it's 1080p should theoretically handle downscaled 4K BD just fine at 10+ bits, at any framerate and any gamut they end up using. I suppose there's a gamble on HDCP 2.2 thought. But the point is even though it's "just" a 1080p projector, it has a better chance of supporting more of the "more important" improvements from 4K BD than the actual 4K projectors out now.

But really, since nobody's giving out checks to buy 4K projectors, what it comes down to for me is, I really don't know what 4K BD will require, but it sure sounds like it will require more than what any of the current sub $100k 4K machines are capable of, and give that it's only about a year away, it seems "imprudent" to buy something today, planning to keep it 5 years, knowing it will be lacking probably important capabilities in just a year or two? Rather than waiting a year or so to know for sure or avoid the whole issue entirely?

Now if someone would give me a check to buy a projector and it could be one of those new 4K DPI Insights, I'd be all over that.
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post #9114 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 07:02 PM
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My $0.02

Right now we're about 14 months from the arrival of 4K BD (per BDA members/representatives), ie Holiday/December 2015. I can't speak for anyone else, but $15k, while something I could probably do for a projector, isn't something I could do every year, or even every few years. So today, if I were to get a VW600 or something similarly expensive, I'd have to keep it for say 5 years. Well there's a lot of uncertainty about 4K BD today, but I keep hearing things like it will be 10+ bits, maybe 4:2:2 (though I haven't seen that in print anywhere), HDR, HFR, and wide gamut. Of that, I think the VW600 can't do any. My understanding is with it's 10.2Gbps HDMI support, it can only do 4K24@ 8bit 4:2:0, no HDR, no HFR, wide gamut is a maybe. But anyway, all this is saying if I got a VW600 (or similar) today, I'd "have" to keep it for something like 4 years into 4K Blu-ray before I could really upgrade to something that could take advantage of high bit depths, HDR, HFR, wide gamut.

On top of that, resolution is, IMO, the least significant benefit of 4K Blu-ray, and 4K in general. I expect the resolution bump to be nice, and I'm looking forward to that, but what really has me excited are all the other things, higher bit depths to eliminate banding, wide gamut to (at least) match what I see when I go to the theater, HDR sounds quite interesting (not sure if it will be a big thing or a fad), and HFR to really be able to watch The Hobbit and Avater (and anything else) as intended.

Given all that, if someone handed me $15k today with the stipulation that I had to buy a projector with it, and had to buy one that's been at least announced, I would probably have to take that check to Sim2 for a Nero 3. IIRC that's supposed to support BT2020, and given it's 1080p should theoretically handle downscaled 4K BD just fine at 10+ bits, at any framerate and any gamut they end up using. I suppose there's a gamble on HDCP 2.2 thought. But the point is even though it's "just" a 1080p projector, it has a better chance of supporting more of the "more important" improvements from 4K BD than the actual 4K projectors out now.

But really, since nobody's giving out checks to buy 4K projectors, what it comes down to for me is, I really don't know what 4K BD will require, but it sure sounds like it will require more than what any of the current sub $100k 4K machines are capable of, and give that it's only about a year away, it seems "imprudent" to buy something today, planning to keep it 5 years, knowing it will be lacking probably important capabilities in just a year or two? Rather than waiting a year or so to know for sure or avoid the whole issue entirely?

Now if someone would give me a check to buy a projector and it could be one of those new 4K DPI Insights, I'd be all over that.
The 600 does 4k24@10 bit 4:2:2. 4K BD when it comes out will not provide the max spec right off the bat. As I said, I bet I have my 600 for 4 or 5 years before 4K BD surpasses what my projector can do.

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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
The 600 does 4k24@10 bit 4:2:2. 4K BD when it comes out will not provide the max spec right off the bat. As I said, I bet I have my 600 for 4 or 5 years before 4K BD surpasses what my projector can do.
The only issue will be doing P3 or REC 2020.

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The only issue will be doing P3 or REC 2020.
Correct. The 600 does have expanded color space, but not P3 nor 2020.

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Correct. The 600 does have expanded color space, but not P3 nor 2020.
Right and that's to take advantage of the approximate xvYCC color space used on the "Mastered in 4K" Sony blu-ray releases.

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post #9118 of 9119 Old Yesterday, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
My $0.02

Right now we're about 14 months from the arrival of 4K BD (per BDA members/representatives), ie Holiday/December 2015.
...
Well there's a lot of uncertainty about 4K BD today...
Even if 4K BD comes out in 12/15:

Will it be popular enough to be viable or will Netflix and Amazon 4K streaming take over?

How many titles will be available in 4K?

Will Netflix or Redbox offer rentals or will it only be available for disk purchase?

As you said, $15K is a lot of cash to spend on a projector. Especially when it will likely be worthless in 5-7 years.
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
As you said, $15K is a lot of cash to spend on a projector. Especially when it will likely be worthless in 5-7 years.
So, the projector won't be able to show a picture in 7 years? Then it will be worthless? Or it has to last 8+ years to not be considered worthless? I don't understand why you think that. If a projector last that long, isn't that a good thing?
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Even if 4K BD comes out in 12/15:

Will it be popular enough to be viable or will Netflix and Amazon 4K streaming take over?
My hope is 4K Blu-ray will be like Laserdisc, niche, but popular enough to build a good library. Of course another possibility is Hollywood could throw their weight behind it like they did Blu-ray.

Quote:
As you said, $15K is a lot of cash to spend on a projector. Especially when it will likely be worthless in 5-7 years.
I never said, nor do I think it will be worthless. That said it seems like a lot of folks here who are dismissing 4K for several years seem to be forgetting history. Lots of us, maybe even most of us said similar things when Blu-ray came out: DVD looks good, I'll only buy a few movies. DVD will be fine, you won't need 1080p for a while after BD comes out, etc. But you look back and those same people are the ones who now say "I never even watch DVDs anymore".

I just know/think/expect based on history that on this forum at least, once 4K Blu-ray comes out, 2K Blu-ray will be a second class citizen, as will any display devices that don't fully support 4K Blu-ray. If this was a couple years ago, or if BDA hadn't announced 4K Blu-ray was coming next fall, I'd mostly agree with Mike that something like the VW600 would be fine for several years. But going by history, the fact that, the VW600 lacks even P3 support, and just about everyone on the forum is the early adopter type, it just seems imprudent to get such a high end projector today knowing in only about a year you'll be looking for new features that can't be added with a simple firmware or input board update.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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