Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 305 - AVS Forum
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post #9121 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
My hope is 4K Blu-ray will be like Laserdisc, niche, but popular enough to build a good library. Of course another possibility is Hollywood could throw their weight behind it like they did Blu-ray.



I never said, nor do I think it will be worthless. That said it seems like a lot of folks here who are dismissing 4K for several years seem to be forgetting history. Lots of us, maybe even most of us said similar things when Blu-ray came out: DVD looks good, I'll only buy a few movies. DVD will be fine, you won't need 1080p for a while after BD comes out, etc. But you look back and those same people are the ones who now say "I never even watch DVDs anymore".

I just know/think/expect based on history that on this forum at least, once 4K Blu-ray comes out, 2K Blu-ray will be a second class citizen, as will any display devices that don't fully support 4K Blu-ray. If this was a couple years ago, or if BDA hadn't announced 4K Blu-ray was coming next fall, I'd mostly agree with Mike that something like the VW600 would be fine for several years. But going by history, the fact that, the VW600 lacks even P3 support, and just about everyone on the forum is the early adopter type, it just seems imprudent to get such a high end projector today knowing in only about a year you'll be looking for new features that can't be added with a simple firmware or input board update.
But you are looking for a unicorn. No such animal exists. There never has been a projector that held good resale value after 5 to 7 years. So to ask for that standard out of any projector is not reasonable in my opinion.

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post #9122 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
But you are looking for a unicorn. No such animal exists. There never has been a projector that held good resale value after 5 to 7 years. So to ask for that standard out of any projector is not reasonable in my opinion.
I agree, part of it is the demand for new technology in everything we buy, we want better, faster with the latest tech. Companies are doing that but in order for us home theater enthusiasts to be happy we need a higher quality pj to satify our tastes, unfortunately most are expensive. Most of us can get away with with trading up with cell phones and tablets every couple of years because the hit is not so bad, but when you spend 10k or even 5k it hurts a lot more and harder to justify.

In some ways I wish that new models would be released every 5 years that way I don't drool over the Next Years advancements
Either that or buy a pj and stay off these evil forums
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post #9123 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
But you are looking for a unicorn. No such animal exists. There never has been a projector that held good resale value after 5 to 7 years. So to ask for that standard out of any projector is not reasonable in my opinion.
Oh, I'm not looking for any such thing, nor am I expecting any resale value. I guess I look at it like this (this is all theoretical): Say I want to buy a projector, I've got about a $3k/yr budget, and a total of $15k now. I could buy a VW600, but I already know that it doesn't support the two most likely gamuts for 4K Blu-ray, nor some other features. I could buy it anyway since it would still "work", but I know I will not be happy being "stuck" once 4KBD comes out having dropped $15k on a machine that I can't replace for another 4 years.

One alternative is to just wait a year, if I've already got a projector then by the time 4K BD comes out, I'll have an $18k budget ($3k/yr). By this time there should be some machines coming out (heck maybe a VW700 with P3 support and 18Gbps HDMI 2.0, who knows) and it should be within budget. This alternative has the advantage of a slightly larger budget and being able to jump right into 4K BD with "full" support for. If you wait two years, that's now a $21k budget, and now you're almost in VW1100 class territory, but with a year for a 4K library to build and a year for the display tech to shake out and you should be good to go.

Another option is to buy a $3k projector this year (say you don't have one currently) to get you by for a year or two until you can do like above but with a slightly lower budget.

All of these later options seem better to me since IMO the wider gamut (P3/Rec2020) and higher bit depths represent the largest improvements on tap with 4K Blu-ray, the additional resolution is just the icing on the cake. On top of that if you look at the VW600, since it lacks even P3 gamut support, then if we say the higher bit depths are the other important new improvement, well then even a 1080p machine should benefit from that. You won't get the resolution increase obviously, but often times even downscaled, higher resolution formats result in better quality.

Really what it comes down to for me is, I don't understand why you'd buy a 4K projector today, when it will be lacking important features in just a year. Unless you're one of the folks who can afford to just replace a $15k projector after just a year or two. Because we all know, at least for those on this forum (folks who just trust their installer to take care of them are a bit of a different ballgame), that once 4K BD comes out, everyone around here is going to be wanting displays that fully support it, and those with displays that don't will be wishing they did.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #9124 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
No projector has ever had much resale value after 5 to 7 years. Like all projectors, after 5 to 7 years, their value is greatly diminished. Heck my Marantz VP12S4 started out with an MSRP of around 15K (2005) and in 2012, sold for as little as $450 (7 years after introduction). Yet, I would not call it worthless. It still throws a great image. It is a 720P projector, but it accepts 1080p and could play 1080P BD's.
I agree with everything you said. Worthless was too harsh a word. But the point remains, who wanted 720P when everything turned to 1080P. By the way my projector is 7 years old, is 720P, and still throws a great picture.
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post #9125 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
I agree with everything you said. Worthless was too harsh a word. But the point remains, who wanted 720P when everything turned to 1080P. By the way my projector is 7 years old, is 720P, and still throws a great picture.
Yes, and here's proof:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171442442766
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post #9126 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 12:22 PM
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The Cine4Home review of the Epson LS10000 has been posted and it is very positive.

https://translate.google.com/transla...htm&edit-text=
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post #9127 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Oh, I'm not looking for any such thing, nor am I expecting any resale value. I guess I look at it like this (this is all theoretical): Say I want to buy a projector, I've got about a $3k/yr budget, and a total of $15k now. I could buy a VW600, but I already know that it doesn't support the two most likely gamuts for 4K Blu-ray, nor some other features. I could buy it anyway since it would still "work", but I know I will not be happy being "stuck" once 4KBD comes out having dropped $15k on a machine that I can't replace for another 4 years.

One alternative is to just wait a year, if I've already got a projector then by the time 4K BD comes out, I'll have an $18k budget ($3k/yr). By this time there should be some machines coming out (heck maybe a VW700 with P3 support and 18Gbps HDMI 2.0, who knows) and it should be within budget. This alternative has the advantage of a slightly larger budget and being able to jump right into 4K BD with "full" support for. If you wait two years, that's now a $21k budget, and now you're almost in VW1100 class territory, but with a year for a 4K library to build and a year for the display tech to shake out and you should be good to go.

Another option is to buy a $3k projector this year (say you don't have one currently) to get you by for a year or two until you can do like above but with a slightly lower budget.

All of these later options seem better to me since IMO the wider gamut (P3/Rec2020) and higher bit depths represent the largest improvements on tap with 4K Blu-ray, the additional resolution is just the icing on the cake. On top of that if you look at the VW600, since it lacks even P3 gamut support, then if we say the higher bit depths are the other important new improvement, well then even a 1080p machine should benefit from that. You won't get the resolution increase obviously, but often times even downscaled, higher resolution formats result in better quality.

Really what it comes down to for me is, I don't understand why you'd buy a 4K projector today, when it will be lacking important features in just a year. Unless you're one of the folks who can afford to just replace a $15k projector after just a year or two. Because we all know, at least for those on this forum (folks who just trust their installer to take care of them are a bit of a different ballgame), that once 4K BD comes out, everyone around here is going to be wanting displays that fully support it, and those with displays that don't will be wishing they did.

I think ( IMO ) that your time frame for a viable 4K Blu Ray library to be available is too optimistic. I think it will be more like 4 years. Then again, I could just be gun shy after going through the whole HD DVD / Blu Ray war. I'm still buying Blu Rays. I'm not going to be that guy paying top dollar for The Chronicles of Riddick just to have some content again.

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post #9128 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
I agree with everything you said. Worthless was too harsh a word. But the point remains, who wanted 720P when everything turned to 1080P. By the way my projector is 7 years old, is 720P, and still throws a great picture.
I agree, high end 720P units went cheap, even though the high end 720P units threw a better image than the cheap 1080P units. Yeah, my Marantz still throws a very nice image and it is from 2005. Up until last year, I was still using it for HDTV viewing in my family room setup.

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post #9129 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
The Cine4Home review of the Epson LS10000 has been posted and it is very positive.

https://translate.google.com/transla...htm&edit-text=
Thanks to Ekki for some great info I have been looking for.

~1100 @ D65 high lamp, 830 on the medium setting, ~ 550 on the low setting.

DCI = ~850 lumens in max brightness so there is around a 25% loss with the filter in place. I still have to check the 1100 see the lumen drop when the filter is engaged.

assuming 4K BD will use this color space, future owners have to take this into consideration when choosing a screen size / gain. Running the DCI filter at medium or low setting could be too dim for those sizing a screen for max output @ D65 / R709.

regarding the ANSI info, the e-shift module must be scattering light in the same way it does for JVC, I was expecting a higher ANSI measure than 270. There is always an argument about this topic, but my room is dark enough now where I feel I am seeing the benefit of the relatively high ANSI on the VW1100 and even my DC4 Planar.

I would still like to see the L/R patterns and also know how much light it drops in 3D mode.


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post #9130 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 04:20 PM
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Here's the good and bad in a summary from Cine4Home's review of the LS10000:

"All these technical features help the Epson LS10000 to achieve its targeted high-end status. In the resulting image quality convinces with appealing bright, very sharp and color-balanced image. Black level and contrast are particularly impressive with the use of dynamic light control. All in all, the Epson LS10000 a device with virtually no weaknesses. But this is not to say that it does not exist: in addition to a native 4K resolution would be even more calibrated luminosity (ie less loss through the calibration) is desirable. The interframe calculation is not quite on the cutting edge of technology and also can not be combined with 4K playback. Dimensions and weight are in combination with the matt black finish little living room compatible and the Lens Memory function operates at the present time nor accurate. If Epson improve these complaints at a high level in the coming years, as the R-LCD / laser hybrid technology can undoubtedly put the reference point of the high-end home cinema and very close to get at the 'perfect projection'."

It should be interesting when AVForums reviews this projector. They hate any type of dynamic dimming (DI's and I would guess laser brightness modulation). Interestingly it seems Epson got the modulation of the laser right -- at least a great first effort.

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post #9131 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 04:24 PM
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Zombie, check your PM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks to Ekki for some great info I have been looking for.

~1100 @ D65 high lamp, 830 on the medium setting, ~ 550 on the low setting.

DCI = ~850 lumens in max brightness so there is around a 25% loss with the filter in place. I still have to check the to 1100 see the lumen drop when the filter is engaged.

assuming 4K BD will use this color space, future owners have to take this into consideration when choosing a screen size / gain. Running the DCI filter at medium or low setting could be too dim for those sizing a screen for max output @ D65 / R709.

regarding the ANSI info, the e-shift module must be scattering light in the same way it does for JVC, I was expecting a higher ANSI measure than 270. There is always an argument about this topic, but my room is dark enough now where I feel I am seeing the benefit of the relatively high ANSI on the VW1100 and even my DC4 Planar.

I would still like to see the L/R patterns and also know how much light it drops in 3D mode.

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post #9132 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Am I reading it correctly that the CFI is turned off during the 4K enhancement?


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post #9133 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 04:32 PM
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I just skimmed through the review. It looks like Ekki is now adding a bit of extra information which I like. He talks about "motion sharpness" aka native response times of the image device. He seems to like how motion looks on this unit. Native contrast looks to be a little lower, but not much lower, than current generation JVC units.

One thing he doesn't seem to talk about much is the native image sharpness, aka pixel sharpness, without the e-shift device. This is one area where I think JVC is way ahead of all non-DLP projectors, with an exception to the Sony 4K units. I'd like to know if you can focus down on pixels like you can on the JVC units.

Zombie, I agree, ANSI contrast seems to be the lowest of all LCoS units out there currently. This might give us some indication of lens quality and possibly an internal reflection problem like JVC also has. Maybe once you get native contrast values this high, it's extremely hard to keep stray light at bay and lower ANSI contrast is inevitable?

I don't want to bug you more, but did you get a chance to A/B the 1100ES and DC4 Planar unit? I'm really interested in hearing about that.

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post #9134 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 04:44 PM
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For so long we've hoped that a major manufacturer would bring us affordable bulb-free projection that advances image quality along side the long-life and instant on-off benefits of going lamp free. I had expected JVC or Sony to be the first to deliver, but if Epson really has demonstrated a real-world advance for our industry, I'm happy to send my applause their way. Had this just been a trade-show smoke-and-mirrors demo I wouldn't have taken it seriously, but review after hands-on-review seem to keep confirming the same impressions. Bravo to Epson for an apparently well implimented dynamic-dimming contrast feature, and ghost-free 3D with the 480 Hz panels. If the lag-time can permit gaming (maybe with various features disabled) this would indeed be the ideal machine for under $10K if true 4K were not an imperrative for a given consumer.

Bravo.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #9135 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 05:59 PM
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Awesome review Ekki! I would also love to see l/r pattern tested and also some through the glasses shots to see what kind of ghosting performance we are looking at, but otherwise awesome work as always.
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post #9136 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 06:16 PM
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Love the look of that Epson, pretty cool looking.

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post #9137 of 9147 Old 09-23-2014, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I just skimmed through the review. It looks like Ekki is now adding a bit of extra information which I like. He talks about "motion sharpness" aka native response times of the image device. He seems to like how motion looks on this unit. Native contrast looks to be a little lower, but not much lower, than current generation JVC units.

One thing he doesn't seem to talk about much is the native image sharpness, aka pixel sharpness, without the e-shift device. This is one area where I think JVC is way ahead of all non-DLP projectors, with an exception to the Sony 4K units. I'd like to know if you can focus down on pixels like you can on the JVC units.

Zombie, I agree, ANSI contrast seems to be the lowest of all LCoS units out there currently. This might give us some indication of lens quality and possibly an internal reflection problem like JVC also has. Maybe once you get native contrast values this high, it's extremely hard to keep stray light at bay and lower ANSI contrast is inevitable?

I don't want to bug you more, but did you get a chance to A/B the 1100ES and DC4 Planar unit? I'm really interested in hearing about that.
I've been out of the HT room for a little while. I'm desperately trying to hang onto the last few nice weeks of weather before it disappears. pretty soon it will be dark out early and nothing else to do but stare at projectors. well, maybe build a DJI F450 drone, but that's for another forum.

I can see the pixels on the VW1100 even on the HP screen, they are very small in appearance. it's takes a bit to narrow in the focus to get it perfect.

it would be interesting to see if the ANSI is the same on the 9600 model, this shouldn't have the 4K shift element in the light path.


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post #9138 of 9147 Old 09-24-2014, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
regarding the ANSI info, the e-shift module must be scattering light in the same way it does for JVC, I was expecting a higher ANSI measure than 270. There is always an argument about this topic, but my room is dark enough now where I feel I am seeing the benefit of the relatively high ANSI on the VW1100 and even my DC4 Planar.
Agree that the ANSI seem a bit too low and the calibrated lumens even if very good, could be a bit more for larger 1.0 gain screen like mine.
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post #9139 of 9147 Old 09-24-2014, 04:15 AM
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Agree that the ANSI seem a bit too low and the calibrated lumens even if very good, could be a bit more for larger 1.0 gain screen like mine.
The ANSI seems in line with the JVC X500.
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post #9140 of 9147 Old 09-24-2014, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I think ( IMO ) that your time frame for a viable 4K Blu Ray library to be available is too optimistic. I think it will be more like 4 years. Then again, I could just be gun shy after going through the whole HD DVD / Blu Ray war.
I don't know, I was in with HD DVD near the beginning, and I'm not too bitter about the whole thing.

Quote:
I'm still buying Blu Rays. I'm not going to be that guy paying top dollar for The Chronicles of Riddick just to have some content again.
You say that now, heck I say that now, but if it delivers what they're proposing and we're hoping, I think we'll both be changing our tune once we see a few 4K BDs. I said the same thing with DVD but I find myself rebuying my favorite movies on BD since it's painful to watch them on DVD now.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #9141 of 9147 Old 09-24-2014, 08:10 AM
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I don't know, I was in with HD DVD near the beginning, and I'm not too bitter about the whole thing.



You say that now, heck I say that now, but if it delivers what they're proposing and we're hoping, I think we'll both be changing our tune once we see a few 4K BDs. I said the same thing with DVD but I find myself rebuying my favorite movies on BD since it's painful to watch them on DVD now.

I'm just being a realist. New movies shot in 4K going forward will look outstanding on 4K Blu Ray. I'll reserve judgement on catalog titles until I see actual reviews compared to existing Blu Rays. Will " Caddyshack " ever look better? I doubt it. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

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post #9142 of 9147 Old 09-24-2014, 06:53 PM
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I'm just being a realist. New movies shot in 4K going forward will look outstanding on 4K Blu Ray. I'll reserve judgement on catalog titles until I see actual reviews compared to existing Blu Rays. Will " Caddyshack " ever look better? I doubt it. But I'd love to be proven wrong.
If they do a new 4K remaster I think Caddyshack can look better given it was filmed on 35 mm which is said to be roughly equivalent to 4K resolution, but then factoring in a wider color gamut and 10 bit video with better compression, I think it could be a nice improvement on a front projection set-up.

However, I think a lot of catalogs will never see the light of 4K simply because the studios are not going to spend money on remastering titles unless they will sell. I know studios are disappointed with catalog sales in general except on blockbuster/classic which is one reason why they are still using old 1080p transfers on so many titles (especially Universal and Paramount).

On any rate, I am still buying Blu-rays and will continue especially since the prices are so cheap. I recently just bought Rain Man (remastered in 4K actually) for $9 shipped. Hard to pass up something like that and looked very film-like projected.


Last edited by DavidHir; 09-24-2014 at 07:03 PM.
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post #9143 of 9147 Old 09-25-2014, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
If they do a new 4K remaster I think Caddyshack can look better given it was filmed on 35 mm which is said to be roughly equivalent to 4K resolution, but then factoring in a wider color gamut and 10 bit video with better compression, I think it could be a nice improvement on a front projection set-up.

However, I think a lot of catalogs will never see the light of 4K simply because the studios are not going to spend money on remastering titles unless they will sell. I know studios are disappointed with catalog sales in general except on blockbuster/classic which is one reason why they are still using old 1080p transfers on so many titles (especially Universal and Paramount).

On any rate, I am still buying Blu-rays and will continue especially since the prices are so cheap. I recently just bought Rain Man (remastered in 4K actually) for $9 shipped. Hard to pass up something like that and looked very film-like projected.

My guess is that there will continue to be Blu Rays released for years to come even if 4K BR takes off. Anyway, I'm trying to replace the last of the HD DVD's with Blu Rays so I can liberate that space in my rack for a future piece of new equipment. And because the Oppo 103 is just better than the old Toshiba player !

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
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post #9144 of 9147 Old 09-25-2014, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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The last HD-DVD I cared about was the Eagles fairewell tour, live from Melbourne. Once I ripped it to my digital media player, it was time to retire the old player.


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post #9145 of 9147 Old 09-25-2014, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The last HD-DVD I cared about was the Eagles fairewell tour, live from Melbourne. Once I ripped it to my digital media player, it was time to retire the old player.
For me it's the Eagles and the Cream Reunion Concert at Albert Hall. I still watch them and in 3D of course.
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post #9146 of 9147 Old 09-25-2014, 09:55 AM
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I'm still rockin' my hundreds-deep HD-DVD collection! Just watched The Thing and Lost In Translation, and Star Trek the OS again recently. Admittedly a few Warner Brothers HD DVDs seem to be giving up the ghost, but mostly I have no reason to re-buy all the same titles again on Blu-Ray. I didn't feel caught out or bitter at all having bought into HD-DVD. I knew what I was getting into and knew I'd be able to enjoy them for many years whether Blu-Ray won the day or not.

I'm often amazed at the sentiment I see from consumers, especially AV tech-site members who bristle when new technologies or formats raise their head. "4K? Nice try. They fooled me once into re-buying my collection on Blu-Ray. Not this time, they are just greedy and want me to re-spend my money. Ha, no thanks!"
(Not that people in this thread are saying this: but I've seen essentially this sentiment expressed many times on AVSforum, on the Blu-Ray forum, etc)

Whereas no one is forcing anyone to re-buy a movie in the new format. Until and unless perhaps that format takes over and becomes the new defacto standard. And if it does...why in the world would AV-minded people have the desire to be Luddites and refuse to embrace advances in technology? It doesn't make sense to me.

If for instance 4K Blu-Ray happens I won't see it negatively as a money-grubbing scheme only to be rebuffed, I see it as being given an opportunity to own an even better version of something I care about. That kind of option? Give it to me every time if you can! It's simply up to me whether I want to take advantage of it. What else do we want, for technology to stand still, stop progress? If the stop-trying-to-push-new-stuff-on-us sentiment, which is always around, won the day in the past I wouldn't now be experiencing the utterly glorious benefits of an HD projection system with Blu-Ray sources.

Anyway....
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Last edited by R Harkness; 09-25-2014 at 10:09 AM.
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post #9147 of 9147 Old 09-25-2014, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I'm still rockin' my hundreds-deep HD-DVD collection! Just watched The Thing and Lost In Translation, and Star Trek the OS again recently. Admittedly a few Warner Brothers HD DVDs seem to be giving up the ghost, but mostly I have no reason to re-buy all the same titles again on Blu-Ray. I didn't feel caught out or bitter at all having bought into HD-DVD. I knew what I was getting into and knew I'd be able to enjoy them for many years whether Blu-Ray won the day or not.

I'm often amazed at the sentiment I see from consumers, especially AV tech-site members who bristle when new technologies or formats raise their head. "4K? Nice try. They fooled me once into re-buying my collection on Blu-Ray. Not this time, they are just greedy and want me to re-spend my money. Ha, no thanks!"
(Not that people in this thread are saying this: but I've seen essentially this sentiment expressed many times on AVSforum, on the Blu-Ray forum, etc)

Whereas no one is forcing anyone to re-buy a movie in the new format. Until and unless perhaps that format takes over and becomes the new defacto standard. And if it does...why in the world would AV-minded people have the desire to be Luddites and refuse to embrace advances in technology? It doesn't make sense to me.

If for instance 4K Blu-Ray happens I won't see it negatively as a money-grubbing scheme only to be rebuffed, I see it as being given an opportunity to own an even better version of something I care about. That kind of option? Give it to me every time if you can! It's simply up to me whether I want to take advantage of it. What else do we want, for technology to stand still, stop progress? If the stop-trying-to-push-new-stuff-on-us sentiment, which is always around, won the day in the past I wouldn't now be experiencing the utterly glorious benefits of an HD projection system with Blu-Ray sources.

Anyway....

I just wish I could fast forward through the inevitable teething pains a new format always has ! If it has a better picture - I'm there, cash in hand !


Rich - I'll send you a list of HD DVD's I'm getting rid of - just pay shipping - if I have any not in your collection you may want.

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
I'm available 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday Email me at
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