Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 311 - AVS Forum
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post #9301 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 03:52 PM
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This is AVScience forum and I guess I kind of dropped the ball here. I had my Minolta meter upstairs the entire time we were watching the projectors. We simply did not have enough time to calibrate all the projectors. The reason Mark invited me down was to go to the CRT Blendzilla meet in Northern VA. This took up about 80% of our time between driving there (3.5 hours round trip each day), dinners, and the meet on Saturday which was the entire day. This was a very informal "comparison" so what I've said should be taken with a grain of salt. Though I believe the overall qualities of each projector were clearly evident. But again, we simply didn't have time to do what most consider a "proper" shootout. Though, I did make it clear before hand this wasn't going to be a shootout anyways. It was me playing around with Mark's Sony and me making generalizations of what I saw. It's really as simple as that. Mark's 1100ES is calibrated with less than 200 hours on the bulb. His room is treated for light reflections and he's using a reference grade screen (ST100) This should have given me a pretty decent understanding of what the image from one "should" look like. In comparison to my uncalibrated JVC, I still overall liked what I saw from the JVC more and I'm willing to say the Sony does have distinct advantages but for me they weren't big enough over the JVC to warrant me switching to one.

The brightness problem is something I can't explain. Maybe Mark's specific unit just doesn't reach the same brightness other units do. But believe me when I say the JVC was brighter than the Sony in high lamp/auto-limited mode.

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post #9302 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Ok, I understand if you only looked at dark material. But why did you do that, you know the JVC would be better with that???

And you say looked brighter, did you not bring your lux meter? And was not all three projectors calibrated to the same standards?? The Sony with a new lamp and JVC with a new lamp, the Sony is about 40% brighter than the JVC. So if the JVC was brighter in low mode the Sony lamp must have dropped alot in 190 hours. This happened to my last lamp it dropped 40% in 200 hours and I got a replacement from Sony, my current lamp has only dropped 10% in 200+ hours.
Read my previous post. I wanted to compare contrast to the 3-chip DLP, not the JVC. I knew, like you said, the JVC would be better. The Sony was only a couple "clicks" better than the 3-chip DLP.

You seem to take it personally when someone doesn't see the same things viewing a Sony 1100ES. His unit was calibrated, albeit, apparently not as bright as your unit, his is still calibrated which I can't say the same for the JVC. Can't we just agree to disagree and leave it at that? Because all we're going to end up doing is arguing about whose subjective opinion is more correct and that wouldn't make any sense. We've known for a very long time now that you prefer the image from your Sony over all other projectors. This is perfectly fine. But I'm also entitled to like an image from another projector without being told I'm wrong. So like Kris Deering before me, all I'll say is that I simply prefer the JVC for the type of content and room/screen size I have.

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post #9303 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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that's a good way to end it. Did you get a chance to look at the MadVR scaling vs. the built in RC?

ps. my 1100 can crank out some lumens in auto-limited and resolve the pixels quite clearly. good to know I have a better sample than Mark's...
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post #9304 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
This is AVScience forum and I guess I kind of dropped the ball here. I had my Minolta meter upstairs the entire time we were watching the projectors. We simply did not have enough time to calibrate all the projectors. The reason Mark invited me down was to go to the CRT Blendzilla meet in Northern VA. This took up about 80% of our time between driving there (3.5 hours round trip each day), dinners, and the meet on Saturday which was the entire day. This was a very informal "comparison" so what I've said should be taken with a grain of salt. Though I believe the overall qualities of each projector were clearly evident. But again, we simply didn't have time to do what most consider a "proper" shootout. Though, I did make it clear before hand this wasn't going to be a shootout anyways. It was me playing around with Mark's Sony and me making generalizations of what I saw. It's really as simple as that. Mark's 1100ES is calibrated with less than 200 hours on the bulb. His room is treated for light reflections and he's using a reference grade screen (ST100) This should have given me a pretty decent understanding of what the image from one "should" look like. In comparison to my uncalibrated JVC, I still overall liked what I saw from the JVC more and I'm willing to say the Sony does have distinct advantages but for me they weren't big enough over the JVC to warrant me switching to one.

The brightness problem is something I can't explain. Maybe Mark's specific unit just doesn't reach the same brightness other units do. But believe me when I say the JVC was brighter than the Sony in high lamp/auto-limited mode.
I belive you!

But I don´t understand why you said what you said before you went there if this was only comperison taken with a grain of salt. And to me it is easy to see you prefer the JVC with dark material as I do the same, but to me the material has to be very dark to see the big difference. And with movies like Oblivion when the scenes are bright the difference in dynamics, depth, clarity and sharpness there is a big advantage to the Sony. To me the difference in these kind of scenes is almost as great as the very low APL scenes in favour of the JVC and there is simply much more of these kind of scenes in most movies. But that is my meaning and view on the matter.

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post #9305 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Read my previous post. I wanted to compare contrast to the 3-chip DLP, not the JVC. I knew, like you said, the JVC would be better. The Sony was only a couple "clicks" better than the 3-chip DLP.

You seem to take it personally when someone doesn't see the same things viewing a Sony 1100ES. His unit was calibrated, albeit, apparently not as bright as your unit, his is still calibrated which I can't say the same for the JVC. Can't we just agree to disagree and leave it at that? Because all we're going to end up doing is arguing about who subjective opinion is more correct and that wouldn't make any sense. We've known for a very long time now that you prefer the image from your Sony over all projectors. This is perfectly fine. But I'm also entitled to like an image from another projector without being told I'm wrong. So like Kris Deering before me, all I'll say is that I simply prefer the JVC for the type of content and room/screen size I have.
Have I said you are wrong?? And you clearly said you would compare the X500, the DLP and the VW1100 or have I missed something? I only commented on what all you guys told me when I side by side tested these units last year, and I brightness matched and calibrated both to the same standards. The gamma on your X500/RS49 is probarbly not correct and sometimes this can give a more dynamic look (S-curve) in darker scenes than a flat power gamma. All I have said is that i find it to be strange we see things so differently, but I understand if you only looked at dark material. And why do you think I take this personally, ok I love the picture my projector projects, but I don´t care what the label says. I can agree that we disagree, but if you only looked at dark material you have not seen what the Sony really can do. And I will leave it with that.

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post #9306 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Have I said you are wrong?? All I have said is that i find it to be strange we see things so differently, but I understand if you only looked at dark material. And why do you think I take this personally, ok I love the picture my projector projects, but I don´t care what the label says. I can agree that we disagree, but if you only looked at dark material you have not seen what the Sony really can do. And I will leave it with that.
That's a fair point. We didn't look at a lot a brighter material. I guess the reason I wanted to look at mostly darker material is that I already knew the DLP projectors I have will do just as good as the Sony with that type of content. It was more to find out if the Sony had the DLP-like brighter performance AND much better darker scene handling. It was better, but I was expecting a little bit more considering the price and all the praise this unit has gotten over the past few years. I will say if the JVC didn't have a dynamic iris, the difference in contrast would have been MUCH closer and I may have liked the Sony more.
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post #9307 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:14 PM
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Not everyone think the 1100es is the best. Contrast is very important and many prefer it. Simple as that. No need to always disagree when someone else does not choose the 1100es
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post #9308 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:26 PM
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Not everyone think the 1100es is the best. Contrast is very important and many prefer it. Simple as that. No need to always disagree when someone else does not choose the 1100es
I am perfectly fine with that, but there is different kind of contrast and the JVC is best at one and this shows in the very dark material. I dont disagree about the JVC beeing best at something, what I don´t understand is that people like Kris Deering and maby Seegs108 don´t dee the same differences I see when the material is brighter? And I am curious about that.

I could definetly live with the X500 in my HT if I did not own the VW1100. And as I wrote earlier I would buy the X500 and have a two PJ setup if I saw the major difference in dark sci fi movies witch I love, but I don´t.

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post #9309 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:34 PM
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That's a fair point. We didn't look at a lot a brighter material. I guess the reason I wanted to look at mostly darker material is that I already knew the DLP projectors I have will do just as good as the Sony with that type of content. It was more to find out if the Sony had the DLP-like brighter performance AND much better darker scene handling. It was better, but I was expecting a little bit more considering the price and all the praise this unit has gotten over the past few years. I will say if the JVC didn't have a dynamic iris, the difference in contrast would have been MUCH closer and I may have liked the Sony more.
What we definetly can agree on is that the JVC is better at dark material, but to me is has to be very dark material. Most movies I watch don´t have much of this very darks scenes, not even sci fi movies and that is why I stick to the Sony for now. Ok there is a scene here and there, but not enough to justify a two projector setup even if the JVC is "cheap". But I would really like to see a 4K native JVC with better motion and brighter like the Sony with the same strengths in dark scenes, that would really be a killer. But if this was an easy task both Sony and JVC would have done this by now...

The Sony clearly has a weakness in very low APL scenes and I really hope Sony adresses this with the next model, if not I may be a JVC owner again.

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post #9310 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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looking through the 1000/1100 thread, many of the setups I see have a screen size that is a good bit larger than the 110" used for this demo. This is one of the Sony's primarily advantages and one of the reason's why people spend a good amount of money for projectors like this and the DP HC260. The JVC should be handing it to both in low-very low APL scenes and especially the DP with even less native than the Sony.

so you can't have it all - yet.. if JVC can ante up in the fall with something along the lines of the Sony 4K series, keep their native contrast, more lumen output, better lens, etc. then a more even battle will ensue,. just don't expect it to be at a bargain price like the X500/4910.

so where do the CRT's fall into the mix. Maybe it's time to add a G90 to my collection.
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post #9311 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
looking through the 1000/1100 thread, many of the setups I see have a screen size that is a good bit larger than the 110" used for this demo. This is one of the Sony's primarily advantages and one of the reason's why people spend a good amount of money for projectors like this and the DP HC260. The JVC should be handing it to both in low-very low APL scenes and especially the DP with even less native than the Sony.

so you can't have it all - yet.. if JVC can ante up in the fall with something along the lines of the Sony 4K series, keep their native contrast, more lumen output, better lens, etc. then a more even battle will ensue,. just don't expect it to be at a bargain price like the X500/4910.

so where do the CRT's fall into the mix. Maybe it's time to add a G90 to my collection.
Will laser make this any easier or harder for JVC to achieve?

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post #9312 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
looking through the 1000/1100 thread, many of the setups I see have a screen size that is a good bit larger than the 110" used for this demo. This is one of the Sony's primarily advantages and one of the reason's why people spend a good amount of money for projectors like this and the DP HC260. The JVC should be handing it to both in low-very low APL scenes and especially the DP with even less native than the Sony.

so you can't have it all - yet.. if JVC can ante up in the fall with something along the lines of the Sony 4K series, keep their native contrast, more lumen output, better lens, etc. then a more even battle will ensue,. just don't expect it to be at a bargain price like the X500/4910.

so where do the CRT's fall into the mix. Maybe it's time to add a G90 to my collection.
I forgot to comment on the scaling you asked about before. The Sony's internal scaling is pretty good considering the massive difference in compute power needed to handle JINC 4K scaling on the PC. JINC to my eyes gave a more natural image. The Sony scaling by comparison made the image look a bit "hard" in comparison? I'm starting to sound like audiophiles trying to explain the difference in sound to someone. Mark swears he still saw ringing with JINC enabled. I didn't get a chance to bring down my new PC, which I finished building last night, so I couldn't test NNEDI3 image doubling.

Speaking of my PC. Check out the bling:

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The Rat's Nest (Yes, the cover fits on with out a bend or bulge....somehow With so many hard drives it was hard to avoid the mess)

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post #9313 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:57 PM
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The CRT meet was fun. CRTs were before my time so this was my first experience with them. They were considerably less bright than the JVC on a 12' wide SMX 2.35:1 screen. No one at the meet said anything but since the meet I've had two people that were there message me telling me they thought the JVC blew the CRTs away. Brightness is a powerful thing...

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post #9314 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 04:57 PM
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Seegs,

When you say the Sony looked a little bit more "natural" compared to the JVC, could you elaborate a little more? Are you referring to a more "analog" or film-like to the image compared to maybe a bit more digitally looking image on the JVC? I have the RS4810 (pro cal'd) and it seems very natural to me - but interesting of something even looking more natural. I only watch Blu-ray films on my projector, so anything to help replicate the film look is important to me (although the Sony is WAY out of my price league and I do value high native contrast as my room is a painted/carpeted black pit with the ST100 screen).

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post #9315 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 05:08 PM
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Seegs,

When you say the Sony looked a little bit more "natural" compared to the JVC, could you elaborate a little more? Are you referring to a more "analog" or film-like to the image compared to maybe a bit more digitally looking image on the JVC? I have the RS4810 (pro cal'd) and it seems very natural to me - but interesting of something even looking more natural. I only watch Blu-ray films on my projector, so anything to help replicate the film look is important to me (although the Sony is WAY out of my price league and I do value high native contrast as my room is a painted/carpeted black pit with the ST100 screen).
The image looks more analog, yes. The Sony just has the "look" as if no digital processing has been done on it. It looks organic. The JVC looks natural as well, but not as natural/analog as the Sony or the better DLP projectors out there. If you were to do an A/B side by side test you'd be able to see the difference. It's small, but definitely there. By comparison the JVC simply looks more digital. I'd actually make the argument that JVC took a step back in naturalness ever since the RS40/new chassis style projectors came out. For instance the RS20 I had a long time ago looked more organic and natural then any of the more recent JVCs.
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post #9316 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 05:34 PM
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I'd actually make the argument that JVC took a step back in naturalness ever since the RS40/new chassis style projectors came out. For instance the RS20 I had a long time ago looked more organic and natural then any of the more recent JVCs.
Yup, I think we've agreed on that one before. Can't seem to have everything.

I really enjoyed reading about your experience. That the JVC looked brighter is quite shocking to me. I don't really know the ins and outs of the Sony in terms of settings for best contrast etc, so maybe if I knew more I wouldn't have been so surprised (?)
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post #9317 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
...
Enough so that the JVC in low lamp mode was brighter. The Sony has a lamp with 190 hours and my JVC lamp is newer with 10 hours.
...
I may have missed it - which JVC model?
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post #9318 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 05:39 PM
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I don't know what I was thinking. I should have brought my meter downstairs with me and took a couple measurements. Auto-full mode looked SOO much brighter in comparison. Mark and I sat with a single frame from Harry Potter and marveled at the difference in brightness going from one mode to the other made.
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post #9319 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 05:41 PM
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I may have missed it - which JVC model?
It was the JVC DLA-X500. The unit had 10 hours on it's lamp.
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post #9320 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 05:46 PM
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double bingo, these are different projectors for different setups. It would be ideal to have the JVC with 4K native + keep native contrast the same + 1500 lumens + a good lens, they will have people lining up in the streets like an iphone release.

to answer your question earlier, I keep these settings off, I can provide more details later tonight.

when you run auto-iris full, it's important to adjust the black level adjustment to medium. I found it will create posterization and crush blacks with it turned off, it must have something to do with the dynamic gamma as it does not occur with limited, manual or off. A few people discussed this a while back in the 1000 thread. I don't think you would see it with sports, HDTV or most movies, but I can definitely see it in Oblivion and a number of other movies as well.

Zombie do you mean running the "Black Level Adjustment" in the advanced settings at MEDIUM?
I've never really heard of posterization and needed to Google it. Wish you had an example from the projector you could show me.


Anyway I am interested whats the best settings you have found in using the 1100 as Ive only had mine a short time.
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post #9321 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The image looks more analog, yes. The Sony just has the "look" as if no digital processing has been done on it. It looks organic. The JVC looks natural as well, but not as natural/analog as the Sony or the better DLP projectors out there. If you were to do an A/B side by side test you'd be able to see the difference. It's small, but definitely there. By comparison the JVC simply looks more digital. I'd actually make the argument that JVC took a step back in naturalness ever since the RS40/new chassis style projectors came out. For instance the RS20 I had a long time ago looked more organic and natural then any of the more recent JVCs.
Hopefully JVC's next line/chassis returns more of the natural look.

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post #9322 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 06:28 PM
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I look at this combo all the time - each projector has unique properties depending on the content and room setup. I'm keeping the DC4 Planar 8170 because it's a great reference projector for color, it's excellent out of the box.
I am still looking of one of those DC4 chips.. any other ideas beside Feebay .. google returns one other site that looks rather shady to me..
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post #9323 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 06:33 PM
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These are all excellent units guys. I really don't believe in a one size fits all approach. I think the best you can do is choose your unit based on the your screen size, seating distance and content. I have however become a believer in higher resolution. (I really don't think I could move back to 1080p honestly) I can definitely see a difference in clarity.
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post #9324 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I just measured my 1100 in high lamp, I have about 200 hours on the lamp.

Iris full = ~1720 lumens

Iris limited = ~1160 lumens

the brightest 4910 i've measured at the same throw was in the low 900 range, all @ D65
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post #9325 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 07:10 PM
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I just measured my 1100 in high lamp, I have about 200 hours on the lamp.

Iris full = ~1720 lumens

Iris limited = ~1160 lumens

the brightest 4910 i've measured at the same throw was in the low 900 range, all @ D65
You'd have to get Mark to measure his unit. I doubt he's getting numbers like that. My DP 260HC was even brighter than the JVC in low lamp mode on his screen. When I get home I'll measure my two units.

I vaguely remember him saying something like 1300 in high and 800 in low lamp mode, not sure the iris mode but I'll wait for him to confirm.

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post #9326 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 07:18 PM
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I don't know of anyone that uses their 1000/1100 in auto-limited (because of the loss of brightness). It's really not relevant to consider it in any of these comparisons.
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post #9327 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Bingo!


JVC has a beautiful picture but still no match for guys with large screens 140" + diag. Only the 500/1100 can suit us with large screens.


As I always say, one needs to choose the projector to match the room and screen. There is no projector that's better than the rest in all situations...


I say if you have a small screen go with a JVC, large Sony.
Sure, but for a lot of people the Sony is out of reach price wise. So it is nice to be able to have an image that is in the same league, even if it means slumming it with a 120 screen. lol

James Reid:D
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post #9328 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 08:04 PM
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While doing a search to see if I could find a post with Mark's numbers, I noticed several other people posted their calibrated results:

Sony VPL-VW1000ES vs. JVC DLA-X90R shoot out

Sony VPL-vw1000

Sony VPL-vw1000

Sony VPL-vw1000

These seem WAAAAY off from what you're getting Zombie. Maybe there was a production line change that occurred to fix a problem with getting more lumens. Most of the units mentioned in those posts are very early units, Mark's included. So if we're using auto-limited mode which seems to reduce brightness by about 35% and a few hundred hours on the bulb, my observations seem to hold some water.

Last edited by Seegs108; 10-21-2014 at 08:11 PM.
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post #9329 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Im not sure what to make of it, I backed up the Minolta T10 measurement with the CA813 and it's basically the same in auto full and auto limited. This unit was made in Nov 2013 I believe. @ 100IRE i'm reading a near perfect D65 setting.

Cine4home posted over 1600 in the original 1000 review, it seems inline with what I'm seeing, only a delta of ~ 100 lumens.

I usually run low lamp auto-full, sometimes turning it to the limited depending on what i'm watching. it's still plenty bright on the HP since it's only about 2 feet above my head.
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post #9330 of 9450 Old 10-21-2014, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Zombie do you mean running the "Black Level Adjustment" in the advanced settings at MEDIUM?
I've never really heard of posterization and needed to Google it. Wish you had an example from the projector you could show me.


Anyway I am interested whats the best settings you have found in using the 1100 as Ive only had mine a short time.
if you have Oblivion, queue it up to 1:27:00 and pause on this scene. Keep it in auto-iris full and change the black level adjustment in the advanced setting from off -> low -> medium and let me know if you see a noticeable difference.

On my unit, there is a drastic difference between off -> medium

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