Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 313 - AVS Forum
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post #9361 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:28 PM
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For us guys who want blacks I really feel DLP isn't the way to go these days, no matter what price.


Get ready for the bullets!
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post #9362 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
In practical observation in my theater, I don't find my Lumis Host's black levels to be much different than my VW600 watching various Blu Rays or HDTV. Not sure how the 600 differs from the 1100.

The blacks on my 1100 are much improved over the 500 I owned previously, its a big step up in my books and well worth the extra.


Love JVC but no good on my large screen.
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post #9363 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Tell that to the CRT guys. They'll argue no digital can touch a CRT in overall performance. The CRTs were putting out about 700 lumens for the blend on the SMX screen. The JVC was putting out close to a 1000. In comparison it looked much brighter as it should. Also please don't tell that I've lost all my credibility. You can't look past your own personal feelings about the Sony. And that's fine if you talk about the Sony when clearly pointing that out, but you argue as if nothing out there is even close to the performance of the Sony. Anytime anyone claims otherwise they get yelled at for going against your opinion. If you can't simply accept my opinion as an opinion then I don't know what the point in continuing this conversation is. I just liked the JVC more. It's as simple as that.
I accept that!

But have I ever yelled at you for going against my opionion?? I only question why we see things so different, and your opinion when only testing dark material I don´t find valid. You could say the same about me if I only tested bright material when testing, but I don´t, I test vith very variable material and I say and have said many times the JVC is better in very low APL scenes. But you seem to forget this and imply I am a Sony fanboy in your statements. You don´t say it, but reading between the lines it is clear.

And CRT guys that say no digital can touch CRT in overall performance I don´t take seriously, as I have seen a Barco Cine9 and other CRT´s side by side with JVC´s and the VW1100 and to say it mildly it was a no contest. But we have these CRT guys here in Norway also and I respect them for liking the CRT, but to say no digital can touch it I just find silly! Of course I have not seen this blend so I can not say anything about it, but I doubt it to be much better than a Cine9 except in brightness.

And 1000 lumens on a acousically transparent 12´ SMX 2.35:1 screen is not much as this screen looses about 40% if the light in it´s transparancy. If not SMX has come up with a new screen. The X500 will look good, but not to bright to say it mildly.

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post #9364 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
The blacks on my 1100 are much improved over the 500 I owned previously, its a big step up in my books and well worth the extra.


Love JVC but no good on my large screen.

Well then I'm glad I don't have an 1100. The 600 and the Lumis Host make a fine matched set - plenty good for me until 4K laser or LED is the norm.

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post #9365 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I accept that!

But have I ever yelled at you for going against my opionion?? I only question why we see things so different, and your opinion when only testing dark material I don´t find valid. You could say the same about me if I only tested bright material when testing, but I don´t, I test vith very variable material and I say and have said many times the JVC is better in very low APL scenes. But you seem to forget this and imply I am a Sony fanboy in your statements. You don´t say it, but reading between the lines it is clear.

And CRT guys that say no digital can touch CRT in overall performance I don´t take seriously, as I have seen a Barco Cine9 and other CRT´s side by side with JVC´s and the VW1100 and to say it mildly it was a no contest. But we have these CRT guys here in Norway also and I respect them for liking the CRT, but to say no digital can touch it I just find silly! Of course I have not seen this blend so I can not say anything about it, but I doubt it to be much better than a Cine9.

And 1000 lumens on a acousically transparent 12´ SMX 2.35:1 screen is not much as this screen looses about 40% if the light in it´s transparancy. If not SMX has come up with a new screen. The X500 will look good, but not to bright to say it mildly.
I already explained why I tested mostly dark material. I know the DLPs I have will do better or just as good as the Sony with brighter material. I tested dark material because I wanted to see how much better it could handle the darker material over the DLPs. It was better, but not enough for me to ditch the DLPs and JVCs and go with just the Sony.

You're right, it wasn't too bright. It was much brighter than the CRTs. Actually, it was a couple of the CRT guys at the meet that made that claim. One of them was from Denmark and he's a staunch CRT supporter. The other was a CRT fanatic too. I think they were looking for things to criticize about the JVC. I don't see how a lot of lumens is a negative, but that was one of the conclusions they made.

It wasn't too bright for me, but it did look substantially brighter than the CRTs so that may have skewed my opinion about brightness on that size screen. I've noticed as you move up in screen size the foot lambert number you get looks brighter than the same amount of foot lamberts on a smaller screen. This effect may have been prominent as well. For me, there's no such thing as "too bright".

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post #9366 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Well then I'm glad I don't have an 1100. The 600 and the Lumis Host make a fine matched set - plenty good for me until 4K laser or LED is the norm.

I said the blacks on my 1100 are way better than they were on my 500 I owned before the change over. Not the opposite.
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post #9367 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
In practical observation in my theater, I don't find my Lumis Host's black levels to be much different than my VW600 watching various Blu Rays or HDTV. Not sure how the 600 differs from the 1100.
The one thing I noticed on the Sony was that iris took a bit of time reach it's "fully closed" position. So if we're to look at the on/off number posted by many reviewers I feel that number is a bit disingenuous for the real world, typical, amount of contrast you'll get in most darker scenes because with real content on screen you're not going to see the iris close down to anywhere the amount when you have an all black image on screen. The same could be said about the JVC with it's DI enabled as well, but because we have much higher native contrast it's going to perform better regardless. I would imagine real world performance between the two would yield only a small difference in perceived contrast. At least that's what I've been told from those who've seen both at the same time. I'd argue the extra brightness and lens quality are stronger advantages the 1100ES has over the 600ES.

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post #9368 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I already explained why I tested mostly dark material. I know the DLPs I have will do better or just as good as the Sony with brighter material. I tested dark material because I wanted to see how much better it could handle the darker material over the DLPs. It was better, but not enough for me to ditch the DLPs and JVCs and go with just the Sony.

You're right, it wasn't too bright. It was much brighter than the CRTs. Actually, it was a couple of the CRT guys at the meet that made that claim. One of them was from Denmark and he's a staunch CRT supporter. The other was a CRT fanatic too. I think they were looking for things to criticize about the JVC. I don't see how a lot of lumens is a negative, but that was one of the conclusions they made.

It wasn't too bright for me, but it did look substantially brighter than the CRTs so that may have skewed my opinion about brightness on that size screen. I've noticed as you move up in screen size the foot lambert number you get looks brighter than the same amount of foot lamberts on a smaller screen. This effect may have been prominent as well. For me, there's no such thing as "too bright".
How can you know the DLP will be as good or better than the VW1100 with bright material without testing it? Compared to the Lumis 3DS the VW1000/1100 was better in bright scenes. And I have said many times I respect your view on the JVC, but I must be allowed to question why we see thing so different when watching bright material (even if you did not test it) when we see about the same with low APL material??

I have been in discussions with this Dane Stridsvognen and he is a CRT fanatic over all CRT fanatics, so his views is not important to me.

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post #9369 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:50 PM
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How can you know the DLP will be as good or better than the VW1100 without testing it? Compared to the Lumis 3DS the VW1000/1100 was better in bright scenes. And I have said many times I respect your view on the JVC, but I must be allowed to question why we see thing so different when watching bright material (even if you did not test it) when we see about the same in low APL material??

I have been in discussions with this Dane Stridsvognen and he is a CRT fanatic over all CRT fanatics, so his views is not important to me.
I had the Digital Projection HIGHLite Cine 260HC there with me as well and we did use it to test the same material as the JVC and Sony while at Mark's house. It truly needed an ND filter though as it was considerably brighter than both other projectors.

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post #9370 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:56 PM
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I had the Digital Projection HIGHLite Cine 260HC there with me as well and we did use it to test the same material as the JVC and Sony while at Mark's house. It truly needed an ND filter though as it was considerably brighter than both other projectors.
Why don´t you answer my question: How can you know the DLP will be as good or better than the VW1100 without testing it?

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post #9371 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:56 PM
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I said the blacks on my 1100 are way better than they were on my 500 I owned before the change over. Not the opposite.
I know you did. I for one am not obsessed with black levels. There are other picture qualities I find as important.

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post #9372 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 03:57 PM
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Why don´t you answer my question: How can you know the DLP will be as good or better than the VW1100 without testing it?

I'm confused...We did test them and when we gamma corrected the DP model (out of the box gamma was far too low), brighter material looked just as good. One of the brighter movies we watched was The Secret Life Of Walter Mitty. Darker material looked better on the Sony.
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post #9373 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:02 PM
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I already explained why I tested mostly dark material. I know the DLPs I have will do better or just as good as the Sony with brighter material. I tested dark material because I wanted to see how much better it could handle the darker material over the DLPs. It was better, but not enough for me to ditch the DLPs and JVCs and go with just the Sony.
I am confused when you say this just a couple of minutes ago?? And you have said many times you only tested dark material to see if the Sony was better?

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post #9374 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:03 PM
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I am confused when you say this just a couple of minutes ago?? And you have said many times you only tested dark material to see if the Sony was better?
That doesn't contradict anything I've said. I said we tested MOSTLY darker material. There were a few brighter clips/scenes thrown into the mix as well. Some of the scenes I test DI's out with are brighter in APL.

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post #9375 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:05 PM
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I'm confused...We did test them and when we gamma corrected the DP model (out of the box gamma was far too low), brighter material looked just as good. One of the brighter movies we watched was The Secret Life Of Walter Mitty. Darker material looked better on the Sony.
So you did not see any difference in clarity, depth of field, dynamics and sharpness when you compared them??

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post #9376 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:12 PM
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That doesn't contradict anything I've said. I said we tested MOSTLY darker material. There were a few brighter clips/scenes thrown into the mix as well. Some of the scenes I test DI's out with are brighter in APL.

OK. But this is just getting silly, and it is just best to stop this now and agree to disagree. As this can go on forever and we will never agree on this matter, but don´t tell me I only favor the Sony as I have clearly stated since I first tested the X500 against the VW1000 that the X500 destroys the VW1000/1100 in very low APL scenes. What I find strange and I can say it a million times is that I don´t understand why you and Kris Deering don´t see the big difference in clarity, depth of field, dynamics and sharpness in when watching brighter material as I and many others see when comparing to the JVC or high end 3 chip DLP´s?

But what about brightness matching, as you guys say one will always prefer the brighter picture, does this not affect when you test?? As you say the DLP was clearly brighter.


This makes me question how you test this and maby we use totally different methods when side by side testing??

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post #9377 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:14 PM
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So you did not see any difference in clarity, depth of field, dynamics and sharpness when you compared them??
I already mentioned I didn't have the ND filter with me so the DP was brighter so I won't make claims to that sort of thing because it wasn't a fair match up. From what I saw, subjectively, there wasn't much of a difference in this area on brighter material. The Sony was better on darker material. Though, if I had the ND filter with me it probably would have made the darker scenes look closer in performance. Again, I'm not claiming anything about my experience to be scientific. These are just generalities with each projector in their own element so to speak. Though, I will say some of the other pro-reviewers take these comparisons much more seriously and match the projectors in brightness and found many of the same qualities I'm talking about in their reviews. So I don't think my assessment is too far off from theirs considering the difference in setup and calibration.

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post #9378 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:17 PM
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OK. But this is just getting silly, and it is just best to stop this now and agree to disagree. As this can go on forever and we will never agree on this matter, but don´t tell me I only favor the Sony as I have clearly stated since I first tested the X500 against the VW1000 that the X500 destroys the VW1000/1100 in very low APL scenes. What I find strange and I can say it a million times is that I don´t understand why you and Kris Deering don´t see the big difference in clarity, depth of field, dynamics and sharpness in when watching brighter material as I and many other see when comparing to the JVC or high end 3 chip DLP´s?

But what about brightness matching, as you guys say one will always prefer the brighter picture, does this not affect when you test?? As you say the DLP was clearly brighter.


This makes me question how you test this and maby we use totally different methods when side by side testing??
That's fine. We can end this amicably and just say we agree to disagree. I admit to see the differences you speak of, not necessarily the "clarity" to the image, but sharpness, naturalness, and motion over a JVC is noticeably better. Just not enough for me to make the claim that it's "much" better. I just think the difference in contrast is by far larger and is more important and noticeable to the overall image compared to the small difference in sharpness, naturalness and motion the two have.

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post #9379 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:19 PM
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I know you did. I for one am not obsessed with black levels. There are other picture qualities I find as important.


Ok well now I understand. But it looked like you were referring to blacks only between the 600/1100. There is much more that the 1100 delivers than just blacks to my eyes than the 500 I previously owned did. For me it was a big improvement and well worth the extra.


In practical observation in my theater, I don't find my Lumis Host's black levels to be much different than my VW600 watching various Blu Rays or HDTV. Not sure how the 600 differs from the 1100.

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post #9380 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:26 PM
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You're right, it wasn't too bright. It was much brighter than the CRTs. Actually, it was a couple of the CRT guys at the meet that made that claim. One of them was from Denmark and he's a staunch CRT supporter. The other was a CRT fanatic too. I think they were looking for things to criticize about the JVC. I don't see how a lot of lumens is a negative, but that was one of the conclusions they made.
People can prefer whatever they want, but since the JVC has an iris control to reduce the white level to as dim as the CRTs or dimmer and still use the dynamic iris this complaint wouldn't hold much water even for somebody who wanted white lumen levels more like the CRTs were doing.

I sure appreciate JVC putting that feature in too even after they originally said it was too late to make the release, as I think it is useful for a lot of us who really do want to tame the lumens in some cases.

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post #9381 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I already mentioned I didn't have the ND filter with me so the DP was brighter so I won't make claims to that sort of thing because it wasn't a fair match up. From what I saw, subjectively, there wasn't much of a difference in this area on brighter material. The Sony was better on darker material. Though, if I had the ND filter with me it probably would have made the darker scenes look closer in performance. Again, I'm not claiming anything about my experience to be scientific. These are just generalities with each projector in their own element so to speak. Though, I will say some of the other pro-reviewers take these comparisons much more seriously and match the projectors in brightness and found many of the same qualities I'm talking about in their reviews. So I don't think my assessment is too far off from theirs considering the difference in setup and calibration.
The problem is that many with me see the same as I and also reviewers, so who can you trust?? When reveiwer say the RS20 is as good as the VW1000 I know they are not to be trusted, and I find to many reviewers to be biased and favor one brand, and many favor JVC and I dont see why? I trust my eyes and dont find the difference in contrast to be as big with most material only very low APL and the difference in intrascene contrast to be as big or bigger compared to the JVC and this combined with the difference in clarity, depth of field and shapness makes the difference in brigher APL scenes bigger than the very few very low APL scenes during a normal movie. Most of this is the same when testing against the Lumis 3DS, just that the VW1100 is better in very low APL scenes. I find both the JVC and Sim2 Lumis 3DS to be very good projectors, but I find the VW1000/1100 to be better overall, can you respect that?

Good night!

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post #9382 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:35 PM
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I'm sure for 4K the Sony will outperform the JVCs, but it's was not worth the extra to upgrade when I had the RS55 in 2012 and many see this with the much cheaper X500. Just too much to spend unless you need the extra brightness. If you can get a screen that's acceptable, the X500 is just a great projector for the price. It has features and value that are better than the 1100es.
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post #9383 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:52 PM
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I swear this exact same conversation was had about these same Projectors on this thread before.

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post #9384 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 04:56 PM
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I swear this exact same conversation was had about these same Projectors on this thread before.
Correct. That was around the time Kris Deering reviewed the 600ES and preferred the JVC over it.
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post #9385 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 05:00 PM
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Its been had too many times. Sony owners or so defensive. Then call others fanboys.

Let me add its not all Sony 1000/1100 owners
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post #9386 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Correct. That was around the time Kris Deering reviewed the 600ES and preferred the JVC over it.
What I find to be very funny is that we need to respect your views on the matter but you don´t have to respect mine and many other with me views on the matter. I find it strange that your and Kris Deerings words are the law and all others thinking the Sony might be better than the JVC has no clue or must be fanboys...

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post #9387 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
What I find to be very funny is that we need to respect your views on the matter but you don´t have to respect mine and many other with me views on the matter. I find it strange that your and Kris Deerings words are the law and all others thinking the Sony might be better than the JVC has no clue or must be fanboys...
When did I say I don't respect your views? I align myself with Kris because he and I seem to share many of the same viewpoints. I also like how he doesn't make bold, hypebole-type statements. He's very frank and I like that. If he likes something more he goes into detail why. The thing about most projectors these days above the $3000 price point is that they are all very good. There's rarely a difference that justifies someone saying it's "much better" and this is one of the issues I have when you and others make that claim about the Sony about certain portions of it's image. I just don't see portions of the image quality on the Sony 4K units that is "much better" than the JVCs. I suppose you could argue it's greatest strength over the JVC is the absolute brightness it can achieve over the JVC. But then again, the JVC simply handles darker content much better. You'll need to pick what you want more out of your projector choice. Both are excellent but if you value a brighter image (or need a brighter image) then the Sony makes more sense.

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For Sale: Marantz VP-15S1 1080p High End DLP Projector - $1295
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post #9388 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 06:18 PM
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Tell that to the CRT guys. They'll argue no digital can touch a CRT in overall performance. The CRTs were putting out about 700 lumens for the blend on the SMX screen. The JVC was putting out close to a 1000. In comparison it looked much brighter as it should.
Yes, but the JVC's image looks as flat as a pancake compared to CRT. Right? Same old arguments just a different day. I kind of long for the good old days on this forum when the CRT vs.digital battles dominated. The Sony VW1100 vs. JVC battles can't hold a candle to the CRT vs. anything digital battles. When Sony introduced the Ruby (first reasonably priced 1080p digital at $10,000) things really got heated up. Then of course the other claim was that bulbs (lamps) didn't last nearly as long as a tube. With LED and now laser in digital projectors that argument IMO is completely dead.

Try and replace a 9" tube in a CRT and see what it costs. Just shipping the damn thing costs almost as much as a digital projector.
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post #9389 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 06:54 PM
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So what's next on the list seegs? Is it gonna be 2 pj setup for you jvc and 3 chipper?
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post #9390 of 9896 Old 10-22-2014, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post
I swear this exact same conversation was had about these same Projectors on this thread before.
This is like the movie groundhog day.

I've had plenty of time to compare the 1100/600/RS57/4910/DC4 Planar to one another, so it's fun and interesting to see the comments being made from all parties here so far. We have clear fans on all 3 sides (JVC/Sony/High quality DLP's) and each one truly does have it's own unique strengths.

I think to have a good, fair comparison, you need a good calibration on all models. Start with a good bt .1886 gamma cal and brightness match to the best of the ability. Choose a myriad of content and run an A/B stack with a split source. Cover each lens during viewing as it really gives a good perspective about how each model compares to one another. I can't go by memory for a second, let alone a minute.

Historically, it does seem that some like to take jabs at Sony's flagship model. Maybe because it's expensive and should crap golden bricks in addition to providing an exceptional display. Forget it's ability to display native UHD/4K content. While limited, it's remarkable to see and a vision into the future if we ever get a solid stream of quality 4K content. The bottom line, it has strong lumen output that can exceed the best of the current JVC's and light up a larger low screen if needed. 4K gaming looks pretty slick too.

from my perspective, I love them all and can't get enough of seeing how each model performs with my favorite content. It's the same reason I have a few different cars, I like variety.

Maybe in 10 years if we get our roll down 4-8K 150" OLED displays that has infinite contrast and killer 3D, we can look back at these discussions / arguments and have a good laugh.
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