Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 319 - AVS Forum
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post #9541 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I could afford a Sim2 Lumis Host when one popped up for sale. While the Lumis was great, it was probably the biggest let down of any projector I've seen thus far. It did have excellent PQ, but from countless reviews I read about it I was expecting the world in terms of absolute performance. Honest to God, the image is like the Runco LS-5's with more brightness and a tad more contrast. Nothing more, nothing less. I would only ever recommend that projector if someone had a gargantuan screen. After seeing the Sony 1100ES I'd pick the Sony over the Lumis any day (unless I needed more brightness).

I think the Lumis Host you bought was a bit old in the tooth that's why you were underwhelmed.
Even Sim2 told me that projector had really been superseded in their range today and greatly improved.


Just goes to show some cheaper projectors today well outperform models that were 5 times more expensive some 5+ years old.
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post #9542 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
it was 1100 and change on the high lamp, auto limited. with low lamp, auto full it's about 100 lumens brighter than the JVC, pretty close.

An observation on the sound with the 2 projectors sitting about 2 feet from my head. I can hear the 4910 in high lamp but can't hear the Sony in either mode. It's nice how quiet the Sony is while cranking out those lumens in high lamp. The big chassis, quiet fans and rear exit exhaust help here. The 4910 though is quieter than the RS46/X35 which can be downright annoying when I run it in high lamp.

one thing I noticed on the 4910 which I forgot about a while ago, a number of the built in color profiles are over saturated. I went through several and nearly seared my corneas... man did Oblivion look colorful in a way I don't recall being right. Switching to 'Custom1' is about as close as it gets to R709 + good saturation tracking and things look more normal to me now. once in a while I don't mind over-cooked colors, it depends on what i'm watching.

I came up with a decent gamma cal, starting with 2.4 (tracks closer to 2.3) and some tweaks to the picture tone and black level controls. I do miss the full gamma controls and ability to tweak individual colors, it was helpful for tuning 10-20 IRE grayscale which will sometimes suffer a bit even when 30-> is perfect.
I actually took a few minutes with Mark to show him the different lamp modes on the X500. The JVC was on a table that sat directly behind the two of us in Mark's second row of seats. We both mentioned, even with the JVC in high lamp, yes it was louder than the Sony which was almost directly above the JVC ceiling mounted, but that it would take a stickler for someone to call it "loud". I think most of us seasoned projector owners know how much quieter the JVC is in high lamp mode compared to some older (and current) DLP models even in their low mode. Then I showed Mark what the "E-shift" high pitch noise was when it's enabled. In his theater we couldn't even hear it. The only way I could hear it was if I placed my ear directly on the chassis. His theater has pretty decent sound characteristics.

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post #9543 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
My main interest in seeing the Sony 1100ES was to see, in it's most capable mode, how close it could compete with the JVC with darker material. The auto-limited mode was the best choice here. Mark and I looked at auto-limited and auto-full and the auto-limited mode was obviously better suited for darker material. I already have DLP projectors that can best the JVC in brighter material. I wanted to see how close I could get to having DLP-like bright scene handling with better than DLP low APL scene handling. I guess I was just expecting too much from the Sony. It looked better than the best DLPs I've had here, but still a decent margin behind the X500. The DI this year on the JVCs is really what sets it so far apart. If I were to have the JVC in manual iris mode with the iris fully open, the Sony would most likely look better in darker scenes in the DI auto-limited mode, but with the DI enabled on the JVC it just wiped the floor with the Sony with the darkest material, like Harry Potter 7. If we were to compare the 1100ES to the X55 (last years mid-tier model) then I'm sure the Sony would've won hands down, but the DI really does make a huge difference. You don't need to choose between highest contrast or highest brightness with JVCs anymore.
What you are saying here is the same as me and these kind of scenes is very few, if theses scenes was there all the time I would also prefer the JVC.

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post #9544 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Have you had the experience with any DLPs where after brightness matching daytime scenes looked like bright sunny days with the DLP, but cloudy days with the JVC?

That is the part that I find most hard to explain from Andreas's observation of that which I think was about the Sony 500 and JVC 500.
And I still stand for that and I think it is the intrascenecontast that is one of the major contribitors to this. The difference is a bit bigger with the 1100 vs the X500.

But it was also the case with the Lumis 3DS in some scenes so intrascenecontrast can not be the only contributor...

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Last edited by Andreas21; 10-28-2014 at 01:38 AM.
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post #9545 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
What you are saying here is the same as me and these kind of scenes is very few, if theses scenes was there all the time I would also prefer the JVC.
I guess it really comes down to the content you typically watch. I remember watching a few episodes of Game of Thrones where it ONLY looked good on a JVC. Season 4 Episode 9 there's an attack on Castle Black and it's a nighttime battle. Nothing with the exception to a decent plasma/OLED and the JVC will do this episode justice as far as contrast is concerned. A lot of movies I've watched lately have been DARK and I really only see the JVC do extremely well with these movies. If you watch a lot of TV and sports with your projector then I'd argue the Sony or a DLP would be better suited for you, but that's just not me. I do most of my TV viewing on my computer monitor. I tend to be at friends' houses when watching sports.

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post #9546 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I guess it really comes down to the content you typically watch. I remember watching a few episodes of Game of Thrones where it ONLY looked good on a JVC. Season 4 Episode 9 there's an attack on Castle Black and it's a nighttime battle. Nothing with the exception to a decent plasma/OLED and the JVC will do this episode justice as far as contrast is concerned. A lot of movies I've watched lately have been DARK and I really only see the JVC do extremely well with these movies. If you watch a lot of TV and sports with your projector then I'd argue the Sony or a DLP would be better suited for you, but that's just not me. I do most of my TV viewing on my computer monitor. I tend to be at friends' houses when watching sports.
I only use my VW1100 for movies and nothing else! Sports and TV shows like Game Of Trones I watch on my HW55, and to say some scenes like the attack on Castle Black in Game Of Thrones ONLY look good on the JVC is bull, it looked ok on the HW55 and I know it would have looked better on the X500 and even in Game Of Thrones these scenes are few. But I have the HW55 in one my family rooms because I use it for sports, TV shows and gaming and then it is a much better option than the X500. And I have seen no plasma TV with better quality in darker scenes than the VW1100, and yes I own a late mode 65" Panasonic plasma TV. OLED TV´s is another matter.

And I asked you earlier if you could show a picture of your cinema, as this is a major contributor to what projector would look best and also a major contributor to what projector is the best choice for you??

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Last edited by Andreas21; 10-28-2014 at 02:54 AM.
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post #9547 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 04:01 AM
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Bickering removed. Stick to the topic and not each other.

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post #9548 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
it was 1100 and change on the high lamp, auto limited. with low lamp, auto full it's about 100 lumens brighter than the JVC, pretty close.

An observation on the sound with the 2 projectors sitting about 2 feet from my head. I can hear the 4910 in high lamp but can't hear the Sony in either mode. It's nice how quiet the Sony is while cranking out those lumens in high lamp. The big chassis, quiet fans and rear exit exhaust help here. The 4910 though is quieter than the RS46/X35 which can be downright annoying when I run it in high lamp.

one thing I noticed on the 4910 which I forgot about a while ago, a number of the built in color profiles are over saturated. I went through several and nearly seared my corneas... man did Oblivion look colorful in a way I don't recall being right. Switching to 'Custom1' is about as close as it gets to R709 + good saturation tracking and things look more normal to me now. once in a while I don't mind over-cooked colors, it depends on what i'm watching.

I came up with a decent gamma cal, starting with 2.4 (tracks closer to 2.3) and some tweaks to the picture tone and black level controls. I do miss the full gamma controls and ability to tweak individual colors, it was helpful for tuning 10-20 IRE grayscale which will sometimes suffer a bit even when 30-> is perfect.
I just calibrated a friend's 4910 on Sunday. Using the User1 preset and changing the color mode to Cinema resulted in a gamut that was nearly dead on OOTB. I had to tweak the grayscale just a tiny bit on the top end and it was golden. I still ended up doing a LUT calibration with his Lumagen Mini simply because why not, but it really didn't need it. I used a sliding gamma set for 2.3 given his viewing room.

I look forward to your thoughts on the comparison.

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post #9549 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I only use my VW1100 for movies and nothing else! Sports and TV shows like Game Of Trones I watch on my HW55, and to say some scenes like the attack on Castle Black in Game Of Thrones ONLY look good on the JVC is bull, it looked ok on the HW55 and I know it would have looked better on the X500 and even in Game Of Thrones these scenes are few. But I have the HW55 in one my family rooms because I use it for sports, TV shows and gaming and then it is a much better option than the X500. And I have seen no plasma TV with better quality in darker scenes than the VW1100, and yes I own a late mode 65" Panasonic plasma TV. OLED TV´s is another matter.

And I asked you earlier if you could show a picture of your cinema, as this is a major contributor to what projector would look best and also a major contributor to what projector is the best choice for you??

I've pretty much been using my VW600 for movies and my Lumis for HDTV. Playing to the strengths of each machine - at least I tend to find that those sources look better on the 2 respective projectors. I'm just feeling lucky to have two nice projectors to be able to be this picky ! I imagine you feel the same Andreas !
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post #9550 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 10:40 AM
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I've pretty much been using my VW600 for movies and my Lumis for HDTV. Playing to the strengths of each machine - at least I tend to find that those sources look better on the 2 respective projectors. I'm just feeling lucky to have two nice projectors to be able to be this picky ! I imagine you feel the same Andreas !
Yes, I do and if money was no object I would have a 4 projector setup with the SuperLumis (I hope to see it soon) for 3D, JVC X900 for horror and very dark movies, VW300 for sports, gaming and TV series and a VW1100 for the rest.

To me you have a almost perfect combination!

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post #9551 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 10:43 AM
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Yes, I do and if money was no object I would have a 4 projector setup with the SuperLumis (I hope to see it soon) for 3D, JVC X900 for horror and very dark movies, VW300 for sports, gaming and TV series and a VW1100 for the rest.

To me you have a almost perfect combination!
For all the arguing we do ( at times ), we are some of the luckiest people on the planet to have these machines. It's sort of like Hugh Hefner arguing over which 25 year old centerfold girlfriend is better..................

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post #9552 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 03:07 PM
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Yes, I do and if money was no object I would have a 4 projector setup with the SuperLumis (I hope to see it soon) for 3D, JVC X900 for horror and very dark movies, VW300 for sports, gaming and TV series and a VW1100 for the rest.

To me you have a almost perfect combination!

If I had unlimited funds I'd love to have a Super Lumis and a VW1100. But, sometimes chasing that last 5% improvement just isn't worth the time, effort and money ( and explaining spending that money to your wife ). I prefer to wait for a 2nd or 3rd generation 4K laser or LED " affordable " super projector of the future - about the same time 4K Blu Ray is finished morphing into it's final form. I'm looking forward to Cedia 2019 ! Just don't tell my wife !

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post #9553 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
If I had unlimited funds I'd love to have a Super Lumis and a VW1100. But, sometimes chasing that last 5% improvement just isn't worth the time, effort and money ( and explaining spending that money to your wife ). I prefer to wait for a 2nd or 3rd generation 4K laser or LED " affordable " super projector of the future - about the same time 4K Blu Ray is finished morphing into it's final form. I'm looking forward to Cedia 2019 ! Just don't tell my wife !
I totally agree, but if money was no object I wold get the best money could buy for a normal HT screen size(max 12 feet wide). And then I could get the best every generation and my wife would not care, I just had to give her my creditcard now and then...

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post #9554 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 04:02 PM
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Andreas,
If you see a properly set up Super Lumis you may not need anything else. Mine just floors me every time I watch it, 2D or 3D, it doesn't matter. Maybe sometime in the future I might entertain a 4K machine, if funds, etc allow it, but I don't feel I'm missing anything right now.
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post #9555 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 04:55 PM
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Andreas,
If you see a properly set up Super Lumis you may not need anything else. Mine just floors me every time I watch it, 2D or 3D, it doesn't matter. Maybe sometime in the future I might entertain a 4K machine, if funds, etc allow it, but I don't feel I'm missing anything right now.
I have seen a properly set up Lumis 3DS and it did not floor me compared to the VW1000 we side by side tested it against in 2D as we found the VW1000 to be the superior projector, in 3D it was quite a bit better than the VW1000.

And as far as I know the SuperLumis is a upgraded 3DS with higher lumens and som other minor upgrades and not a big revolution. So I don´t think it wil be better overall in 2D than the VW1100, but of corse better in 3D. Of corse you actually don´t need more than one projector if you own the SuperLumis or the VW1100, but if you want the best in everything you need at least 3 projectors as there is nothing like a perfect projector or perfect projector technology. DLP and LCOS both have their strenghts and weaknesses.

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post #9556 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 05:00 PM
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I have seen a properly set up Lumis 3DS and it did not floor me compared to the VW1000 we side by side tested it against in 2D as we found the VW1000 to be the superior projector, in 3D it was quite a bit better than the VW1000.

And as far as I know the SuperLumis is a upgraded 3DS with higher lumens and som other minor upgrades and not a big revolution. So I don´t think it wil be better overall in 2D than the VW1100, but of corse better in 3D. Of corse you actually don´t need more than one projector if you own the SuperLumis or the VW1100, but if you want the best in everything you need at least 3 projectors as there is nothing like a perfect projector or perfect projector technology. DLP and LCOS both have their strenghts and weaknesses.
When said JVC picture was cloudy compared to VW1100, could be that due to gray low gain screen you have? or your tests were in light controlled room with white screen?
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post #9557 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 05:13 PM
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When said JVC picture was cloudy compared to VW1100, could be that due to gray low gain screen you have? or your tests were in light controlled room with white screen?
All test I do is side by side in the same room with the same screen. The resulst would be the same if you used a 1.0 gain matte screen or a 2.4 gain HP screen. As long as you do the test in the same room with the same screen side by side the results would be the same. I have tested the last 2 years on the dnp Supernova 08-85, before I had a 1.0 gain matte white screen.

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post #9558 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 05:19 PM
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I think the most troubling thing about the whole experience is that I acknowledged many of the positive attributes the Sony 1100ES has over the 2014 JVC models but explained why I still preferred the image from the JVC more. While Mark's specific unit might not be as bright as some of the others who have an 1100ES here, I still feel the comparison was valid. His unit is calibrated and had under 200 hours on the current bulb so I'm assuming the calibration hasn't drifted much since it was last calibrated. My JVC wasn't and was in it's "best" out of the box mode. So the Sony should have shined even more in the test against the JVC and yet I still preferred the image even more.

The Sony is like other DLPs with brighter material. It pops, has better motion, and is a little sharper in appearance. With the brighter material I watched on the Sony I saw this. But, like with DLPs going against the JVC, the advantages in sharpness, motion and pop in brighter scenes is no where near as apparent as the difference in contrast in darker scenes between the two. The Sony and a few DLPs out there can match the JVC in apparent contrast with a lot of lower APL level scenes, but the JVC will always show its true colors when it gets dark enough. Newer movies tend to be pretty dark and will really shine on the JVC granted you don't need the extra brightness the Sony offers for a larger screen. I'd say the JVC maxes out at around a 10' wide (1.0 gain) screen considering you'll lose some brightness as the bulb ages.

Fixed the last sentence.

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post #9559 of 9940 Old 10-28-2014, 07:42 PM
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All test I do is side by side in the same room with the same screen. The resulst would be the same if you used a 1.0 gain matte screen or a 2.4 gain HP screen. As long as you do the test in the same room with the same screen side by side the results would be the same. I have tested the last 2 years on the dnp Supernova 08-85, before I had a 1.0 gain matte white screen.
Why not test x500 with white screen versus current setup you already have in the same room? Any gray screen will not provide a fair test IMHO.
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post #9560 of 9940 Old 10-29-2014, 01:21 AM
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Why not test x500 with white screen versus current setup you already have in the same room? Any gray screen will not provide a fair test IMHO.
What is the meaning of testing with different screens, then it is not a fair test. The X500 can produce around 20fl on a 110" dnp Supernova 08-85 and as long as you try to brightness match it is a fair test.
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post #9561 of 9940 Old 10-29-2014, 09:41 AM
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Has anyone got a Projector besides a JVC or Sony. How about the Epson Laser PJ, anyone get their hands on that?

James Reid:D
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post #9562 of 9940 Old 10-29-2014, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I have seen a properly set up Lumis 3DS and it did not floor me compared to the VW1000 we side by side tested it against in 2D as we found the VW1000 to be the superior projector, in 3D it was quite a bit better than the VW1000.

And as far as I know the SuperLumis is a upgraded 3DS with higher lumens and som other minor upgrades and not a big revolution. So I don´t think it wil be better overall in 2D than the VW1100, but of corse better in 3D. Of corse you actually don´t need more than one projector if you own the SuperLumis or the VW1100, but if you want the best in everything you need at least 3 projectors as there is nothing like a perfect projector or perfect projector technology. DLP and LCOS both have their strenghts and weaknesses.
When said JVC picture was cloudy compared to VW1100, could be that due to gray low gain screen you have? or your tests were in light controlled room with white screen?

NO.... it does not help comparing on different screen. I picked the best for both my jvc x500 and my Sony vw1100. For my cinema supernova core2. And cloudy feeling are there with all screens I have had. Call it clarity, and visible sharpness that is much better on the Sony VW1100 or vw 500/600
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post #9563 of 9940 Old 10-29-2014, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post
Has anyone got a Projector besides a JVC or Sony. How about the Epson Laser PJ, anyone get their hands on that?
It isn't available yet. The early reviews were on a pre-production model so we don't even know if they are valid to the final shipping model.

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post #9564 of 9940 Old 10-29-2014, 10:05 AM
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Thanks, just thought it would be a nice change from the JVC vs Sony wars.lol

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post #9565 of 9940 Old 10-29-2014, 10:11 AM
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It isn't available yet. The early reviews were on a pre-production model so we don't even know if they are valid to the final shipping model.
Hey Kris,

Would you happen to know if you'll be reviewing one at some point in time? I've always really enjoyed your projector reviews.
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post #9566 of 9940 Old 10-29-2014, 10:21 AM
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Hey Kris,

Would you happen to know if you'll be reviewing one at some point in time? I've always really enjoyed your projector reviews.
We have a request in. Not sure if it will be me or Chris Eberle that reviews it though if we get one.

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post #9567 of 9940 Old 10-30-2014, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
We have a request in. Not sure if it will be me or Chris Eberle that reviews it though if we get one.
LOL, well if you had walked down the stairs and loudly proclaimed to everyone in the Epson booth that the 5050 sharpness enhancement was the single greatest video enhancement you had ever seen then they might have unbolted the show pj and given it to you right there for review.

Of course, people like AVS5 who ask to many technical questions that the presenter can't answer get left out in the cold.

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post #9568 of 9940 Old 10-30-2014, 10:51 AM
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LOL, well if you had walked down the stairs and loudly proclaimed to everyone in the Epson booth that the 5050 sharpness enhancement was the single greatest video enhancement you had ever seen then they might have unbolted the show pj and given it to you right there for review.

Of course, people like AVS5 who ask to many technical questions that the presenter can't answer get left out in the cold.
Nice. I honestly felt like I was on candid camera both times I went to the Epson demos at CEDIA. The Need For Speed clip was cringe inducing and when we were upstairs and that guy just kept turning up the enhancement I thought for sure this was some mad trick that someone was trying to get me on. No way they could actually be serious that it was improving the picture. But I guess I was wrong.

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post #9569 of 9940 Old 10-30-2014, 11:21 AM
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Nice. I honestly felt like I was on candid camera both times I went to the Epson demos at CEDIA. The Need For Speed clip was cringe inducing and when we were upstairs and that guy just kept turning up the enhancement I thought for sure this was some mad trick that someone was trying to get me on. No way they could actually be serious that it was improving the picture. But I guess I was wrong.

These demos are always a mixed bag. I scratch my head wondering why they do what they do, and who picks the stuff they show as demo clips. At least they didn't have the damn " Warren Miller " style ski demo footage everybody was using in 2013.

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post #9570 of 9940 Old 10-30-2014, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
LOL, well if you had walked down the stairs and loudly proclaimed to everyone in the Epson booth that the 5050 sharpness enhancement was the single greatest video enhancement you had ever seen then they might have unbolted the show pj and given it to you right there for review.

Of course, people like AVS5 who ask to many technical questions that the presenter can't answer get left out in the cold.
And here I thought I was being polite.

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