Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 325 - AVS Forum
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post #9721 of 9984 Old 11-19-2014, 03:19 PM
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Definitely. It's only if the issue is particularly bad that you'll see it from a seated position. And you really only see it with stark contrast shifts like in the picture posted above. It's really just white text on a black background where this issue shows it self off. Apparently, from early reports, the Epson LS10000 has the same issue. I wonder if it's not necessarily a lens issue but more of a high contrast micro-display device issue?

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post #9722 of 9984 Old 11-19-2014, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Definitely. It's only if the issue is particularly bad that you'll see it from a seated position. And you really only see it with stark contrast shifts like in the picture posted above. It's really just white text on a black background where this issue shows it self off. Apparently, from early reports, the Epson LS10000 has the same issue. I wonder if it's not necessarily a lens issue but more of a high contrast micro-display device issue?

I took a look again and there is a slight white glow above text on a black back ground. Guess i tuned it out before.lol

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post #9723 of 9984 Old 11-19-2014, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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This past week I had a chance to calibrate another RS4910, this was a fantastic sample, convergence was one of the best i've seen out of the box. I also recently calibrated the X35/RS46 (another nice sample) so I decided to run them in an A/B stack with a split source to see how they compare. I usually run around -7 on the iris.

using a number of scenes from Skyfall and Oblivion (2 of my favorite reference BD's) it was harder to discern between the 2 than most would think. I really needed a full, extended fade to black to see the difference. With a quick changing APL scene like the interrogation scene in Oblivion, this can trip up the 4910 iris a bit so it takes a second for the iris / dynamic gamma to kick in and then can blow out the highlights when returning to TC in the chair. I then turned to the first 10 minutes of Underworld Evolution which looks excellent with a good gamma cal. Both projectors performed great and while I did see the iris physically moving around I didn't see a very noticeable difference in the actual image when going back and forth. The end of Skyfall / battle in the mansion is a very dark scene and the 4910 clamped down a good bit and had some advantage here but the X35/RS46 held it's own quite well. .

turning to e-shift, this was interesting. I sit 1.25 sw (~14ft) from the 142" 16:9. Both looked basically the same with e-shift off and with the e-shift set at the default setting, you get the typical analog look that e-shift provides with a bit of softening of the overall image. Close up, I would think I would prefer the e-shift on, it looks better imo than the 'chunky' pixels of the native 1080P image. seated though, I found myself preferring it off as I wasn't seeing the advantage at this distance and it looked a bit softer during the A/B process.

there's no doubt the 4910 is one of their best model built in this chassis that dates back to 2010 with the RS40. Having said that, a good sample entry model from last year is no slouch either and overall closer than I would have though. For 3D, 4910 wins mainly for the CMD, something we should have had since the RS40 was released.

I think many are looking forward to what JVC has in store for fall 2015. Only 10 long months to go.

PS. e-shift 1 FTW...
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post #9724 of 9984 Old 11-19-2014, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardoski View Post
I took a look again and there is a slight white glow above text on a black back ground. Guess i tuned it out before.lol
If it's not really bad, and that seems to be the case with your unit, I would keep tuning it out. No point in worrying about something that is hard to see or impossible to see at a normal seating distance. Most units have the issue and some units will have the issue dramatically worse. It's only then where I'd make a point to exchange the unit for a new one or send it to JVC/Mendtronix to be remedied. I just hope they get whatever causes the problem fixed for their next generation projector so no one has to deal with the issue no matter how mild or serious the streaking is.

Here's a particularly bad example of the streaking:

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post #9725 of 9984 Old 11-19-2014, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If it's not really bad, and that seems to be the case with your unit, I would keep tuning it out. No point in worrying about something that is hard to see or impossible to see at a normal seating distance. Most units have the issue and some units will have the issue dramatically worse. It's only then where I'd make a point to exchange the unit for a new one or send it to JVC/Mendtronix to be remedied. I just hope they get whatever causes the problem fixed for their next generation projector so no one has to deal with the issue no matter how mild or serious the streaking is.

Here's a particularly bad example of the streaking:

Yeah, that was mine. This was on an RS57. The streaking was very visible from seating distance (about 1.25 screen widths). And if I stood back at 2+ screen widths it was still just as visible. I was also seeing the effect on things like the occasional candle flame, car headlight, and other such "contrasty" images in normal viewing material.

This has to have been a relatively extreme case because much more people would be complaining about it on the forums if it was common for it to be so noticeable.

Fortunately on my replacement RS57 I consider the minimal streaking to be a non-issue. I'm very grateful to AVS for working to get this exchanged for me. They'll always get my business.
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post #9726 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post

Fortunately on my replacement RS57 I consider the minimal streaking to be a non-issue.
Sorry, not paying real close attention to this thread atm.. but I am curious why you would accept ANY streaking at all from a new high end projector? I realize there is something not perfect on every machine regardless of price but to me, in 2014 there is no way I would accept this type of defect in a new unit in this price range. Guess I am to picky and expect to much.. As long as you are happy that make JVC happy..
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post #9727 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Yeah, that was mine. This was on an RS57. The streaking was very visible from seating distance (about 1.25 screen widths). And if I stood back at 2+ screen widths it was still just as visible. I was also seeing the effect on things like the occasional candle flame, car headlight, and other such "contrasty" images in normal viewing material.

This has to have been a relatively extreme case because much more people would be complaining about it on the forums if it was common for it to be so noticeable.

Fortunately on my replacement RS57 I consider the minimal streaking to be a non-issue. I'm very grateful to AVS for working to get this exchanged for me. They'll always get my business.
You are welcome. Yours was the worst that I had seen.
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post #9728 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
Sorry, not paying real close attention to this thread atm.. but I am curious why you would accept ANY streaking at all from a new high end projector? I realize there is something not perfect on every machine regardless of price but to me, in 2014 there is no way I would accept this type of defect in a new unit in this price range. Guess I am to picky and expect to much.. As long as you are happy that make JVC happy..
Give me any projector and let me throw up test patterns and view it up close and most likely, I will be able to show you defects in the image. There is no such thing as perfect, especially when talking about three panel projectors. You can go to single chip DLP, but then you are giving up other aspects and most likely, still have some defects show up in test patterns. Yes you want a good sample, but if expecting perfect, you will never be happy.
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post #9729 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 07:18 AM
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Zombie,

With the 4910 vs X35/RS46 comparisons you did, would the blacks be the same if the DI was turned off on the 4910?

Also, did you see any actual color improvements with the 4910 given the CMS abilities over the X35/RS46?

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post #9730 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
Sorry, not paying real close attention to this thread atm.. but I am curious why you would accept ANY streaking at all from a new high end projector? I realize there is something not perfect on every machine regardless of price but to me, in 2014 there is no way I would accept this type of defect in a new unit in this price range. Guess I am to picky and expect to much.. As long as you are happy that make JVC happy..
I hear you, but with my second RS57 whatever streaking is present is not visible unless looking hard for it, and I don't see it watching material on the projector.

Since this is something that seems to be inherent in these JVCs, if you want the excellent picture that the JVC throws you kinda have to accept that there may be some subtle flaws that don't detract from the viewing experience in there.

It's the same principle as not accepting a projector unless it has 100% perfect convergence. If convergence is off so badly that it can be seen from seating distance and can't be corrected, I think most would consider that unacceptable. But minor converge errors that can't be seen from seating distance or that can be hidden are generally accepted by most.

The streaking present on my first RS57 was what I would consider unacceptable. Visible from viewing distance and visible in normal viewing material. Whatever minor, subtle streaking is present on the replacement is something I'm not sure I'd know was there if I wasn't aware of this issue with the JVCs. Sure, as a matter of principle I agree that not a trace of something like this should be present on these high-end projectors. But considering the impressively beautiful picture this JVC throws I'm ok with it (as are the many that probably have this to a minor degree but don't even know it).

Even the girl of your dreams is gonna have a few imperfections, right?
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post #9731 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Turning to e-shift, this was interesting. I sit 1.25 sw (~14ft) from the 142" 16:9. Both looked basically the same with e-shift off and with the e-shift set at the default setting, you get the typical analog look that e-shift provides with a bit of softening of the overall image. Close up, I would think I would prefer the e-shift on, it looks better imo than the 'chunky' pixels of the native 1080P image. seated though, I found myself preferring it off as I wasn't seeing the advantage at this distance and it looked a bit softer during the A/B process.
This is exactly what I usually see as well. I completely get why some want to use eShift but from my seating distance it always looks a tad soft for my tastes.

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post #9732 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 08:32 AM
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Even the girl of your dreams is gonna have a few imperfections, right?
Hum.. didn't think of it that way.. guess Booze would fix the streaking issue as well!
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post #9733 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Zombie,

With the 4910 vs X35/RS46 comparisons you did, would the blacks be the same if the DI was turned off on the 4910?

Also, did you see any actual color improvements with the 4910 given the CMS abilities over the X35/RS46?
the contrast is basically the same with the DI off. I hope they don't stop trying to improve the native contrast for the next round, this is their claim to fame and is what separates them from practically every other model other there.

The 4910 has a few modes that are very close to R709 out of the box. So does the X35/RS46. If I needed to adjust the color space beyond minor tweaks, I would likely use the lumagen and not the internal CMS.

I'm glad they skipped this year, they have to be cooking up something great for fall 2015. I'll be ready since I always have at least 1 JVC in the corral.
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post #9734 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 08:39 AM
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.. guess Booze would fix the streaking issue as well!
Booze fixes everything.
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post #9735 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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This is exactly what I usually see as well. I completely get why some want to use eShift but from my seating distance it always looks a tad soft for my tastes.
it's odd though, I used to run it all the time on the RS55. A while back I did a compare against e-shift 1, 2 and 3. I kept going back to e-shift 1 for the preference. I believe they changed the e-shift element after the 1st gen but I don't recall the reasoning.

I'm still trying to figure out how the change affected the shift of the pixels. I saw this on some patterns as well, it wasn't just the menus. (RS55 on top, RS4810 on the bottom)



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post #9736 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 09:49 AM
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As I've mentioned before with my RS4810, I go back and forth between using eshift. I just use "film" and none of the enhancers with it.

The pro is it helps to slightly smooth out to some degree some jagged edges or stair-stepping I see from time to time on content. It also seems to very subtly solidify the image in some way giving a more analog look to the image as Zombie mentioned.

The con is it does very subtly soften the image from my seating distance (about 10 feet back from 108" wide 2:35 screen) so the image can look a hair less crisp. Sometimes I think motion might be better without eshift, but haven't specifically tested it although there is said to be a scene in The Dark Knight that shows an issue with it. I've also heard video bandpass is bad with eshift although not exactly sure how to look for that.

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post #9737 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 10:29 AM
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I sit 14ft from a 115in 16X9, I do not notice E-shift, on my JVC X500, really.

As for the slight streaking I saw last night, it is hardly worth a fuss, FOR me. If it was something that showed up a lot I would find it annoying.

I too am glad JVC skipped this year, it gives me time to save for a new model, although I am so itching to buy some kind of display. lol Lucky for me I am building a new HT, the build is taking up my money. But chances are I will buy a new TV for the bedroom.

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post #9738 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 03:01 PM
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They've definitely made some strides with motion (pun intended). I'd say out of the ones I've mentioned, the lens streaking issue is probably the most noticeable. This is what it looks like:



.





- that looks........... not so good


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post #9739 of 9984 Old 11-20-2014, 03:09 PM
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- that looks........... not so good


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Eventually they'll get it straightened out. Luckily my current X500 doesn't seem to suffer from any excessive streaking like in some of the photos I've posted.
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post #9740 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 04:41 PM
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They've definitely made some strides with motion (pun intended). I'd say out of the ones I've mentioned, the lens streaking issue is probably the most noticeable. This is what it looks like:



The streaking is better or worse on a sample to sample basis. This photo isn't too bad actually. I've seen some where it's MUCH worse. My old X55R had practically zero issues with it. Other samples had it worse on varying degrees. Zombie has a photo of what the internal reflections look like. You usually see it in the black bar area of the image. I'll see if I can put together a clip from a few scenes where the internal reflections are easily seen and post it here.
Wow! Does this image closely resemble how it looks to the naked eye, or did the camera exposure over-exaggerate the issue?

If it really streaks this much, that's a pretty bad case. I checked my X700 and it seems to streak on rolling credits a bit, but not on static text. But it wouldn't bother me anyways because I don't watch text. Pristine video footage is all I see.

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post #9741 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 04:43 PM
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Wow! Does this image closely resemble how it looks to the naked eye, or did the camera exposure over-exaggerate the issue?

If it really streaks this much, that's a pretty bad case. I checked my X700 and it seems to streak on rolling credits a bit, but not on static text. But it wouldn't bother me anyways because I don't watch text. Pristine video footage is all I see.
Not sure about the exposure, you'd have to ask the forum member who took the photo. Though, I can tell you this is not a particularly bad case of streaking.

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post #9742 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 05:25 PM
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Not sure about the exposure, you'd have to ask the forum member who took the photo. Though, I can tell you this is not a particularly bad case of streaking.
OK, oh well. I'll just be happy that I either (A) don't really notice it or (B) got lucky and received a sample that doesn't exhibit that particular phenomenon enough for me to cry wolf. I've never seen "streaking" or "smearing" in really dark scenes with small bright objects either (e.g., space scenes, etc..).

Maybe certain screen types mitigate or exacerbate the issue more than others?

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post #9743 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 05:47 PM
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Wow! Does this image closely resemble how it looks to the naked eye, or did the camera exposure over-exaggerate the issue?

If it really streaks this much, that's a pretty bad case. I checked my X700 and it seems to streak on rolling credits a bit, but not on static text. But it wouldn't bother me anyways because I don't watch text. Pristine video footage is all I see.
I can't speak to the above picture, but the James Mangold picture further above looked like that from setting distance. Of course, the picture is sort of overexposed and blooming, but the streaking was like that to the naked eye fom seating instance and beyond.

Not an issue on the exchanged unit though.
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post #9744 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 07:58 PM
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I can't speak to the above picture, but the James Mangold picture further above looked like that from setting distance. Of course, the picture is sort of overexposed and blooming, but the streaking was like that to the naked eye fom seating instance and beyond.

Not an issue on the exchanged unit though.
Well at least the new unit doesn't have the same issue, or at least not to the extent that would warrant another replacement.

I still wonder what causes this phenomenon though, especially since it doesn't affect every unit.

Does anyone think that the panel convergence/alignment could possibly have an effect on this?

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post #9745 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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maybe something with the e-shift device, I don't recall seeing any posts about it from x35/rs46 owners. My RS46 doesn't have it.

I've seen 20+ JVC's in the last 2 years (owned/calibrated), I think maybe 1 or 2 might have stood out in this area. I didn't see any that warranted replacement.

in some photos i've seen, the point and shoot cameras (cell phones included) over-expose the screen and make it look worse than it is.
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post #9746 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 08:12 PM
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I've seen close to 15 in the past two years. Two of them had it pretty bad. The rest were negligible and nothing to be upset about. One of them was an RS45 so I don't think the e-shift device is causing it.

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post #9747 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 08:37 PM
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maybe something with the e-shift device, I don't recall seeing any posts about it from x35/rs46 owners. My RS46 doesn't have it.

I've seen 20+ JVC's in the last 2 years (owned/calibrated), I think maybe 1 or 2 might have stood out in this area. I didn't see any that warranted replacement.

in some photos i've seen, the point and shoot cameras (cell phones included) over-expose the screen and make it look worse than it is.
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I've seen close to 15 in the past two years. Two of them had it pretty bad. The rest were negligible and nothing to be upset about. One of them was an RS45 so I don't think the e-shift device is causing it.
Yeah, and Toe was talking about it in some older threads about the RS40 (Official JVC RS55/X70 owners thread.) so I don't think it's e-Shift related. Some others think it's the lens, but I would think it would make other content look funky if the lens was messed up. It sorta looks like pixel bleed, but I don't know if that's possible on projectors. And I would think the bleed would be horizontal and vertical if that was the case.

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post #9748 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Yeah, and Toe was talking about it in some older threads about the RS40 (Official JVC RS55/X70 owners thread.) so I don't think it's e-Shift related. Some others think it's the lens, but I would think it would make other content look funky if the lens was messed up. It sorta looks like pixel bleed, but I don't know if that's possible on projectors. And I would think the bleed would be horizontal and vertical if that was the case.
Yeah, this really bothered me at first on my RS40 and I even went over to Sam's house (damnsam77) to look at his RS40 who I went in on a group buy with and his showed the same thing, but it was not as obvious on his lower gain AT screen since his image was not as bright in general. My RS45 is just as bad, but for me it became a non issue since it never reveals itself in normal content. It would be nice to have it fixed though one of these years. Obviously it's not eshift related since the non eshift models suffer the exact same thing.

On a side note, I am feeling less and less the need to upgrade for some reason as my RS45 at almost 1200 hours on the bulb still looks excellent to my eyes. I also have a spare bulb in the hanger. My plan right now is to skip next year as well and see where projectors are at in 2016. Might do some audio upgrades though in the meantime.

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post #9749 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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what ever happened to sam? wow was he excited to get that RS40. wasn't there a road trip involved to get it?
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post #9750 of 9984 Old 11-21-2014, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Yeah, this really bothered me at first on my RS40 and I even went over to Sam's house (damnsam77) to look at his RS40 who I went in on a group buy with and his showed the same thing, but it was not as obvious on his lower gain AT screen since his image was not as bright in general. My RS45 is just as bad, but for me it became a non issue since it never reveals itself in normal content. It would be nice to have it fixed though one of these years. Obviously it's not eshift related since the non eshift models suffer the exact same thing.

On a side note, I am feeling less and less the need to upgrade for some reason as my RS45 at almost 1200 hours on the bulb still looks excellent to my eyes. I also have a spare bulb in the hanger. My plan right now is to skip next year as well and see where projectors are at in 2016. Might do some audio upgrades though in the meantime.
Yeah, I feel the same. I'm in no hurry to upgrade at the moment. The image my X700 throws is phenomenal. Besides, I'm holding off on upgrading until there's plentiful 4K content available. I'm at ~3000 hours now on my original bulb and even 3D is still nice and bright for me. Though I'm still getting a new bulb for Christmas. I would like a Lumagen with auto-cal, but I'm waiting for a native 4K version so I can be future proof. No more upgrading video equipment for me until it's all native 4K capable.
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