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post #9781 of 9795 Old 11-25-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Plasma was great except for pixel dithering, heat generation, power consumption, burn-in on earlier models (it wasn't bad at all on the newer models), and that's about it. I still never saw a plasma that had black levels good enough for me (and I saw the Pioneer Kuro 9G in Best Buy Magnolia in Reno, NV). The image washed out really bad with the lights turned on. I had one Samsung PN64F8000 or something like that. I only kept it for a week because I couldn't stand the grey letterbox bars. And from what I've read, even the Pioneer Kuro 9.5G and Panasonic ZT60 still had "some" light in the letterbox bars. D-Nice tweaked some Kuro 9.5G's to make the black levels better, but that's only a 50" model, which is way too small (that's what she said, LOL!). I ended up with a Samsung UN55B8500 full-array local dimming LED LCD that had pitch black letterbox bars, but exhibited some haloing. And now that TV is broken and will cost like $500 to fix...maybe one day.

Any light in the letterbox bars just destroys the whole movie experience for me. That's the main reason I'm so excited to get a large screen OLED, or whatever tech (QLED, CLED, etc...) ends up being the next big thing. Infinite contrast even in ambient lighting conditions...sign me up! Oh yeah, and just add in Dolby HDR for icing on the cake.
I'm not trying to say they have the best black level and contrast out there, but ANSI contrast is about 15000:1 on the Kuro and newer Panasonic plasmas. I'm not a huge fan of full array LED back lit LCDs because of the halo artifacts you get. I'd rather have a consistent level of black at all times which is why I'd own a plasma over an LCD any day. Plus, like I previously mentioned, plasmas get 1080+ lines of motion resolution natively (no creative frame interpolation needed) where even the best LCDs are no where near that.
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post #9782 of 9795 Old 11-25-2014, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I'm not trying to say they have the best black level and contrast out there, but ANSI contrast is about 15000:1 on the Kuro and newer Panasonic plasmas. I'm not a huge fan of full array LED back lit LCDs because of the halo artifacts you get. I'd rather have a consistent level of black at all times which is why I'd own a plasma over an LCD any day. Plus, like I previously mentioned, plasmas get 1080+ lines of motion resolution natively (no creative frame interpolation needed) where even the best LCDs are no where near that.
I feel ya there. They all have their pros and cons, that's for sure. If a manufacturer ever creates a display that has perfect PQ and is affordable by the masses, said manufacturer would surely go out of business within 10-years, or have to downsize significantly. That's probably why it hasn't been done yet, they don't want to cut their own throats. Incremental upgrades and failures by design keeps them in business.

There have been a few FALD LED/LCDs that have been really good at minimizing haloing. For instance, the Sharp Elites were super nice other than the Cyan color issue, plus they came in a 70" size. It just depends on the amount of zones they implemented and how well their algorithms worked.

But yeah, hopefully LGs new OLED printing technique will allow them to scale the panels up past 77" and retain high yields so we can get larger screen sizes for affordable prices. Assuming there's a high enough demand to help drive down prices as well.

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post #9783 of 9795 Old 11-25-2014, 09:13 PM
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Tech news outlets are reporting Sony (yet again) scaling back production on both smartphones and TVs:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/25/s...rnaround-plan/

From the article above:

"In fact, the plan can be summed up pretty simply as "make a lot fewer TVs and smartphones."

"The (new) new strategy will see the company abandon plans to compete with rivals in the market share stakes and concentrate on a smaller clutch of devices that turn a profit even if sales were to stop by 30 percent."


That doesn't sound great for projection either, given I'm sure it's a very low profit part of the business. I'm not a business guy so I have no idea, but it sounds ominous.
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post #9784 of 9795 Old 11-25-2014, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Tech news outlets are reporting Sony (yet again) scaling back production on both smartphones and TVs:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/25/s...rnaround-plan/

From the article above:

"In fact, the plan can be summed up pretty simply as "make a lot fewer TVs and smartphones."

"The (new) new strategy will see the company abandon plans to compete with rivals in the market share stakes and concentrate on a smaller clutch of devices that turn a profit even if sales were to stop by 30 percent."


That doesn't sound great for projection either, given I'm sure it's a very low profit part of the business. I'm not a business guy so I have no idea, but it sounds ominous.
While the projector division can't be a big part of their business, I bet it is making a profit. For the last several years, we sell as many Sony projectors as we can get.
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post #9785 of 9795 Old Yesterday, 01:59 AM
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The problem with Sony is that about 10-15 years ago Samsung and some other companies were so heavily subsidized by the South Korean and other governments that Sony could hardly compete in any area (monitors, TV's, headphones, cheap speakers, various consumer electronics). Sony kept trying to use their brand name to convince people "Sony was the best", just buy the brand, and people stopped caring as much about the brand as they used to. Samsung and some of the other Asian companies just killed the Japanese companies in the early 2000's. Sony has never really fully recovered. Sony invested too much money into Bluray, and they made a lot of terribly dumb investments overseas. Sony has done bad in the tablet business, bad in the movie business, and generally bad.

Sony always has problems controlling their costs, the company has always been too bloated.
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post #9786 of 9795 Old Yesterday, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
If a manufacturer ever creates a display that has perfect PQ and is affordable by the masses, said manufacturer would surely go out of business within 10-years, or have to downsize significantly. That's probably why it hasn't been done yet, they don't want to cut their own throats. Incremental upgrades and failures by design keeps them in business.
Companies rarely think that long-term, they are mostly concerned with sales within 1-2 years, though some bigger companies do think longer term. Stuff breaks because they are trying to manufacture it as cheaply as possible, it is a balance between trying to make it more reliable and keep the costs low, because the more reliable it is the less cost they have for warranties and repair.

Most electronics are more reliable now than in the past. Hard drives, TV's, Smart Phones, projectors, etc... Though now-a-days we do see more MFR lemon models, but it's easy to figure out which ones those are by online reviews. Also thanks to online reviews, it's forced companies to spend more on reliability because if the failure rates are too high the reviews will get hammered.


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post #9787 of 9795 Old Yesterday, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Plasma was great except for pixel dithering, heat generation, power consumption, burn-in on earlier models (it wasn't bad at all on the newer models), and that's about it. I still never saw a plasma that had black levels good enough for me (and I saw the Pioneer Kuro 9G in Best Buy Magnolia in Reno, NV). The image washed out really bad with the lights turned on. I had one Samsung PN64F8000 or something like that. I only kept it for a week because I couldn't stand the grey letterbox bars. And from what I've read, even the Pioneer Kuro 9.5G and Panasonic ZT60 still had "some" light in the letterbox bars. D-Nice tweaked some Kuro 9.5G's to make the black levels better, but that's only a 50" model, which is way too small (that's what she said, LOL!). I ended up with a Samsung UN55B8500 full-array local dimming LED LCD that had pitch black letterbox bars, but exhibited some haloing. And now that TV is broken and will cost like $500 to fix...maybe one day.

Any light in the letterbox bars just destroys the whole movie experience for me. That's the main reason I'm so excited to get a large screen OLED, or whatever tech (QLED, CLED, etc...) ends up being the next big thing. Infinite contrast even in ambient lighting conditions...sign me up! Oh yeah, and add in Dolby HDR for icing on the cake.
I've owned three different plasmas (Panasonic ST30, VT60, and now have a Samsung F5300B) and they do perform best in a darker room. The blacks and contrast were excellent on the VT60, but letter box bars were never completely black until it was a mid or high APL scene. The VT60 ansi contrast was insanely high as Seegs stated ~15,000:1. I think native contrast was somewhere around 25,000-28,000:1 if I recall. I sold my VT60 though once I went with my RS4810 and settled for a more small, more modest 51" Samsung as the VT60 was used mostly for movies. However, the Samsung is excellent overall for a flat panel and very low price. But, all plasmas are no longer being made as well know.

Regarding black bars, that is one thing think I love about my constant image height set-up on my RS4810. Black bars are gone (sucked up by the Rosco velour paint on the walls as I use the zoom method) and you never have to see anything on the top and bottom of a scope image. Very cool and truly theatrical experience.

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post #9788 of 9795 Old Yesterday, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Tech news outlets are reporting Sony (yet again) scaling back production on both smartphones and TVs:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/25/s...rnaround-plan/

From the article above:

"In fact, the plan can be summed up pretty simply as "make a lot fewer TVs and smartphones."

"The (new) new strategy will see the company abandon plans to compete with rivals in the market share stakes and concentrate on a smaller clutch of devices that turn a profit even if sales were to stop by 30 percent."


That doesn't sound great for projection either, given I'm sure it's a very low profit part of the business. I'm not a business guy so I have no idea, but it sounds ominous.

I think due to global economic conditions, we might see this across the board. Companies are struggling to remain profitable and high end gear makes up a very small percentage of their profit. Comes at a bad time with really great advancements on the horizon, but unless they are profitable it doesn't matter how great they are.
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post #9789 of 9795 Old Yesterday, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Regarding black bars, that is one thing think I love about my constant image height set-up on my RS4810. Black bars are gone (sucked up by the Rosco velour paint on the walls as I use the zoom method) and you never have to see anything on the top and bottom of a scope image. Very cool and truly theatrical experience.
Yup, same here with a projector/masking system. Black bars? What are those?
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post #9790 of 9795 Old Yesterday, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Tech news outlets are reporting Sony (yet again) scaling back production on both smartphones and TVs:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/25/s...rnaround-plan/

From the article above:

"In fact, the plan can be summed up pretty simply as "make a lot fewer TVs and smartphones."

"The (new) new strategy will see the company abandon plans to compete with rivals in the market share stakes and concentrate on a smaller clutch of devices that turn a profit even if sales were to stop by 30 percent."

That doesn't sound great for projection either, given I'm sure it's a very low profit part of the business. I'm not a business guy so I have no idea, but it sounds ominous.

All that means is that the 4K projector of your dreams will still be more expensive than you wished it would be. It's up to us to fund the next big development in home theater projectors with every purchase. I'm doing my part as best I can !!

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post #9791 of 9795 Old Today, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Companies rarely think that long-term, they are mostly concerned with sales within 1-2 years, though some bigger companies do think longer term. Stuff breaks because they are trying to manufacture it as cheaply as possible, it is a balance between trying to make it more reliable and keep the costs low, because the more reliable it is the less cost they have for warranties and repair.

Most electronics are more reliable now than in the past. Hard drives, TV's, Smart Phones, projectors, etc... Though now-a-days we do see more MFR lemon models, but it's easy to figure out which ones those are by online reviews. Also thanks to online reviews, it's forced companies to spend more on reliability because if the failure rates are too high the reviews will get hammered.
I agree. Most "smart" companies that will survive for the long haul have many different products (if product A starts seeing less demand, product B C D... will hopefully keep them afloat), and they have short, mid, and long-term goals as well. They always analyze the market to try and balance supply vs demand. It's amazing how electronic products seem to fail right after the extended warranty expires (seems like some "smart" engineering). It's really tough to "know" that you are getting a quality product that will last well past the end-of-warranty period (I haven't purchased an extended warranty in quite some time now because I always get burned right after it expires, then I paid for the extended warranty plus the repair). They make big bucks repairing products out-of-warranty. It's all a fine balancing act though. Running a successful enterprise isn't easy business.

And you definitely have to be careful with online reviews. The majority of online shoppers probably don't even know about the most reputable review sites and/or don't even do diligent research and product comparisons before they make the purchase. Why waste time when they can run to the local Best Buy, Wal-Mart, or hit up Amazon? So many companies pay people to do online reviews praising their products (shady business). I sometimes do months of research before making a purchase. The time I research depends on how many options there are and how much dough I'm about to drop.

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post #9792 of 9795 Old Today, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I've owned three different plasmas (Panasonic ST30, VT60, and now have a Samsung F5300B) and they do perform best in a darker room. The blacks and contrast were excellent on the VT60, but letter box bars were never completely black until it was a mid or high APL scene. The VT60 ansi contrast was insanely high as Seegs stated ~15,000:1. I think native contrast was somewhere around 25,000-28,000:1 if I recall. I sold my VT60 though once I went with my RS4810 and settled for a more small, more modest 51" Samsung as the VT60 was used mostly for movies. However, the Samsung is excellent overall for a flat panel and very low price. But, all plasmas are no longer being made as well know.

Regarding black bars, that is one thing think I love about my constant image height set-up on my RS4810. Black bars are gone (sucked up by the Rosco velour paint on the walls as I use the zoom method) and you never have to see anything on the top and bottom of a scope image. Very cool and truly theatrical experience.
Yeah, I will get me a masking system in my next build (that will be quite some time though). I want the Stewart Directors Choice 4-way masking screen in 128-144" StudioTek 100 material. Well, unless 120"+ OLEDs are cheaper by that time, in which case I won't have a projection system at all. A nice rear-projection setup would be another option with the same Stewart masking system, but with the AeroGlas 100 screen material.

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post #9793 of 9795 Old Today, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Tech news outlets are reporting Sony (yet again) scaling back production on both smartphones and TVs:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/25/s...rnaround-plan/

From the article above:

"In fact, the plan can be summed up pretty simply as "make a lot fewer TVs and smartphones."

"The (new) new strategy will see the company abandon plans to compete with rivals in the market share stakes and concentrate on a smaller clutch of devices that turn a profit even if sales were to stop by 30 percent."


That doesn't sound great for projection either, given I'm sure it's a very low profit part of the business. I'm not a business guy so I have no idea, but it sounds ominous.
Yep, not good news for the display market at all. It's tough times to have products that are quite a bit more expensive than similarly performing products from competitors. They should just scale back production of premium products and focus more on low to mid-range devices. That's what is selling the most right now. They need a better ad campaign as well. I hardly ever see Sony commercials any more. Sony has been losing a lot of money lately (surely putting their shareholders in a rough situation). Sony's quarterly and yearly earning reports have been pretty abysmal for the past few years.

I really love Sony as a brand and think they have always been on the bleeding edge of technology. I hope their new business strategy works (for the companies sake), but I would hate to see them stop manufacturing display tech. I read that Sony is in a joint collaboration with Panasonic, Japan Display & Innovation Network Corporation of Japan R&Ding OLED tech, but who knows if that will ever take flight. We do need more competition for Samsung and LG in that area.

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post #9794 of 9795 Old Today, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I'm not trying to say they have the best black level and contrast out there, but ANSI contrast is about 15000:1 on the Kuro and newer Panasonic plasmas. I'm not a huge fan of full array LED back lit LCDs because of the halo artifacts you get. I'd rather have a consistent level of black at all times which is why I'd own a plasma over an LCD any day. Plus, like I previously mentioned, plasmas get 1080+ lines of motion resolution natively (no creative frame interpolation needed) where even the best LCDs are no where near that.
Sorry to keep this off-topic, but since we were talking about monitors

I looked at the Plasmas, but there are so few available. The 51" Samsung for $600 I looked at only did 2000:1, not even as good as this $220 Benq monitor. I didn't want to spend $1500 for a Plasma as a PC monitor, which was about the next level up to get higher on/off. I was worried about text sharpness on the Samsung Plasma.

I just hooked this Benq gw2760hs monitor up, yes the Gamma and brightness uniformity error is visible by the eye, but it's not that bad. The top left is slightly brighter than the bottom right, but other than that about 3/4 of the screen look uniform. The error is smooth though (no patchy brighter areas) and only noticeable on a pure white screen really (I can see it when browsing a little). As far as motion blur goes, I haven't tried enough stuff yet to see it yet. Colors look very uniform unless you are viewing it from the side (tiny tiny bit of tint). The monitor is 100% flicker free, and you can tell. Because there is no flicker, it takes the eyes a bit to adjust. It's like my eyes are expecting flicker (even though I don't "see it visibly") and my eyes aren't used to this yet.

Suits my purposes anyhow, looks better than my old TN panel monitor. This should hold me over until OLED gets cheap enough, which might take a few years.


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