Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 330 - AVS Forum
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post #9871 of 9898 Old 12-08-2014, 08:50 PM
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The two upper level JVC's have a filter to give the image the Xenon look, without the Xenon lamp price.

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post #9872 of 9898 Old 12-08-2014, 08:52 PM
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But it reduces the amount of light output by a pretty good amount.

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post #9873 of 9898 Old 12-08-2014, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
The two upper level JVC's have a filter to give the image the Xenon look, without the Xenon lamp price.
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
But it reduces the amount of light output by a pretty good amount.
Yeah, it's just a pipe dream of what could've been. LEDs and friggin lasers are the future now. The wavelengths are much more linear and stable over time anyways...and they last much longer, run cooler, etc... The future looks very exciting!

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post #9874 of 9898 Old 12-09-2014, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
The two upper level JVC's have a filter to give the image the Xenon look, without the Xenon lamp price.
Do we have measurements? I would like to see color gamut and spectrum graphs with and without that filter.
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post #9875 of 9898 Old 12-09-2014, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
I wish Xenon lamps lasted longer and were cheaper. It would be nice to have an affordable projector with a Xenon light source with a >95 CRI score. Mercury-vapor is ~60 CRI according to Christie.

I hope the LED and laser light engines have a high CRI. I bought some Cree LED bulbs for my house that have a CRI of 93. They definitely make everything look more "natural". Skin tones look much better and stuff just looks more true-to-life.
I don't think projection lamps and home lamps are the same, especially regarding CRI. For a projector you just need (and really only want) light power centered around the primaries, anything else gets filtered and wasted. Just look at LED and Laser projectors, I bet those have horrid CRI since they have such tight spectra. Conversely at home, you want a nice, wide spectrum that closely matches incandescent so that you provide even light over all colors.
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post #9876 of 9898 Old 12-09-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I don't think projection lamps and home lamps are the same, especially regarding CRI. For a projector you just need (and really only want) light power centered around the primaries, anything else gets filtered and wasted. Just look at LED and Laser projectors, I bet those have horrid CRI since they have such tight spectra. Conversely at home, you want a nice, wide spectrum that closely matches incandescent so that you provide even light over all colors.
CRI matters in all bulbs, just as much as color temperature. Although it doesn't matter as much in projection as it does in your home, because we have CMS in our displays. In our home, all we have is the bulb. And then if your walls, ceiling, floors, etc are any colors other than 18% neutral grey then the reflected light from your bulb will be tainted and the colors will no longer get a good grade. My walls are tan, so I need a higher color temperature blueish bulb to bring the reflected color up to where I like it. I wish I had a meter so I could measure the reflected light vs the light straight from the bulb.

The way I understand it is that the more accurate the light source is to D65 100CRI and the reflective surfaces to 18% neutral grey (inside & outside the display), the less you have to worry about calibration.

I believe Darin would be the go-to guru on this, but I don't want to get the thread off-topic.

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post #9877 of 9898 Old 12-09-2014, 06:48 PM
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Is there a running thread on here discussing HDMI 2.0 & HDCP 2.2?

I just wonder what the timeline is for getting all components standardized to the below specifications???

- HDMI 2.0 Full Implementation with 18 Gbps bandwidth
- HDCP 2.2
- 3840x2160 | 60 Hz | 16-bits | 4:4:4
- 3840x2160 3D | 60 Hz | 16-bits | 4:4:4

Or will HDMI 2.0 ever support those specs?

From what I've read here, it doesn't look like that may even be an option, yet.

I'm not upgrading anything in my chain until everything is compatible and up to standard.

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post #9878 of 9898 Old 12-09-2014, 08:20 PM
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For those interested, Cine4home just posted an informative look into the JVC DLA-X500 and how the unit drifted in color performance and gamma and how much light the unit has lost over a 600 hour period of use.

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...x500_test2.htm

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post #9879 of 9898 Old 12-09-2014, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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that translation was a bit difficult to get through. I'm more interested in his recent discussion in the VW95 thread:


Right now I have a couple of same cases here. Reduced Gamut, low Gamma, blue shift.
This comes together with a massive contrast loss to 1/10. One machine still has 1400:1 native contrast., the other 2300:1


Actually, low usage seems to provoke the Problem.
Right now we have about 20 documented cases (out of about 25 checked machines).
(HW50 / VW90 / VW95)
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post #9880 of 9898 Old 12-09-2014, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
that translation was a bit difficult to get through. I'm more interested in his recent discussion in the VW95 thread:


Right now I have a couple of same cases here. Reduced Gamut, low Gamma, blue shift.
This comes together with a massive contrast loss to 1/10. One machine still has 1400:1 native contrast., the other 2300:1


Actually, low usage seems to provoke the Problem.
Right now we have about 20 documented cases (out of about 25 checked machines).
(HW50 / VW90 / VW95)
So you are saying the Sony's lose a disastrous amount of contrast over time, how long?


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post #9881 of 9898 Old 12-09-2014, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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that's all the details that were posted but it's a bit alarming to read. especially if low usage provoked the issue. Hopefully he will post more information so there is more context.
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post #9882 of 9898 Old 12-10-2014, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
CRI matters in all bulbs, just as much as color temperature. Although it doesn't matter as much in projection as it does in your home, because we have CMS in our displays. In our home, all we have is the bulb. And then if your walls, ceiling, floors, etc are any colors other than 18% neutral grey then the reflected light from your bulb will be tainted and the colors will no longer get a good grade. My walls are tan, so I need a higher color temperature blueish bulb to bring the reflected color up to where I like it. I wish I had a meter so I could measure the reflected light vs the light straight from the bulb.

The way I understand it is that the more accurate the light source is to D65 100CRI and the reflective surfaces to 18% neutral grey (inside & outside the display), the less you have to worry about calibration.

I believe Darin would be the go-to guru on this, but I don't want to get the thread off-topic.
The way I understand CRI is that it's a metric of how closely the color of a color illuminated with a light source matches that of the same color illuminated with a black body radiator of the same color temperature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

I think projectors would "fail" a CRI test misserably because they output only very narrow spectra once filtered for Red/Blue/Green. They also only need Red/Blue/Green from their light source. For example a Red LED/Laser would have a terrible CRI. I'm pretty sure to have a good CRI you need to have a spectrum that matches that of a black body radiator (ie output all colors of the spectrum relatively evenly). But we don't need that for a projector, we just need Red/Green/Blue.

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post #9883 of 9898 Old 12-10-2014, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
The way I understand CRI is that it's a metric of how closely the color of a color illuminated with a light source matches that of the same color illuminated with a black body radiator of the same color temperature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

I think projectors would "fail" a CRI test misserably because they output only very narrow spectra once filtered for Red/Blue/Green. They also only need Red/Blue/Green from their light source. For example a Red LED/Laser would have a terrible CRI. I'm pretty sure to have a good CRI you need to have a spectrum that matches that of a black body radiator (ie output all colors of the spectrum relatively evenly). But we don't need that for a projector, we just need Red/Green/Blue.
Yes, this is true. I may be wrong in my thinking here, but it just seems like a perfect projector lamp should output D65 100CRI for optimum reproduction of color (how it was graded post production), assuming you're not going to play with the CMS and/or calibration? If the lamp itself could output D65 100CRI (which none can that I have seen) and maintain that over the life of the lamp, we wouldn't need to worry about having a CMS or calibration. But some people don't like the image to conform to standards Rec.709 D65, some prefer oversaturated colors, so it's kind of a mute point I guess. This stuff fascinates me though.

Here's a good read that explains it a little better than I can. It's not in reference to display tech, but it made it all make "a little" more sense to me.

Verivide has some bulbs that are D65 98CRI, but they are for color grading suites.

And both of the wiki pages below have really good info. You already pointed out the top one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_illuminant

I don't think it really matters (projection works fine how it is now), I was just reading and the wheels got to turning so I figured I would pick some brains about it. Most people believe if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But I just like to try to think of different/better solutions to get the same/better results. But once you factor in cost, then it all goes downhill from there.

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post #9884 of 9898 Old 12-10-2014, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
For those interested, Cine4home just posted an informative look into the JVC DLA-X500 and how the unit drifted in color performance and gamma and how much light the unit has lost over a 600 hour period of use.

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...x500_test2.htm
I noticed that they mentioned a price drop of over 20% recently for the X500 in Euros. I wonder if the US has or will get a price adjustment.

Some good information there. Sure seems like JVC turned things around from when projectors were dimming fast. I was hoping to see what putting a new lamp in would have done to the gamut and gamma on the unit that had been run for 600 hours though.

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post #9885 of 9898 Old 12-11-2014, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Yes, this is true. I may be wrong in my thinking here, but it just seems like a perfect projector lamp should output D65 100CRI for optimum reproduction of color (how it was graded post production), assuming you're not going to play with the CMS and/or calibration? If the lamp itself could output D65 100CRI (which none can that I have seen) and maintain that over the life of the lamp, we wouldn't need to worry about having a CMS or calibration. But some people don't like the image to conform to standards Rec.709 D65, some prefer oversaturated colors, so it's kind of a mute point I guess. This stuff fascinates me though.
The difference is with a projector (or TV, or any color display device) you're not illuminating colored objects, you're creating colored light. The big difference is with a projector you filter have to filter the spectrum down to three narrow bands. Here's an example of a high CRI bulb spectrum:

https://plus.google.com/102520196326...ts/A6FroPHhSux
Note the dashed black body curve. This bulb is high CRI because it has a full spectrum that is smooth and closely matches that of a blackbody of the came color temperature.

Here's what a UHP lamp's spectrum looks like:


And an LED projector's spectrum:

http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/Viv...20Preview3.htm

Note how the projector's spectra have very high peaks and very large valleys, and do not follow a smooth black body curve at all. I'm not saying a high CRI bulb wouldn't work well for a projector, I'm just saying you really don't need one because you have to filter most of that nice smooth spectrum (what makes that bulb high CRI) out, to get the pure primary colors you need for creating color images.

Given that for projection (or any color video display) we need the three primary colors, I think native RGB LED and Laser light sources are the ideal light sources since they don't require filtering, and the massive amount of light loss that entails.

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post #9886 of 9898 Old 12-11-2014, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
The difference is with a projector (or TV, or any color display device) you're not illuminating colored objects, you're creating colored light. The big difference is with a projector you filter have to filter the spectrum down to three narrow bands. Here's an example of a high CRI bulb spectrum:
https://plus.google.com/102520196326...ts/A6FroPHhSux
Note the dashed black body curve. This bulb is high CRI because it has a full spectrum that is smooth and closely matches that of a blackbody of the came color temperature.

Here's what a UHP lamp's spectrum looks like:

And an LED projector's spectrum:
http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/Viv...20Preview3.htm

Note how the projector's spectra have very high peaks and very large valleys, and do not follow a smooth black body curve at all. I'm not saying a high CRI bulb wouldn't work well for a projector, I'm just saying you really don't need one because you have to filter most of that nice smooth spectrum (what makes that bulb high CRI) out, to get the pure primary colors you need for creating color images.

Given that for projection (or any color video display) we need the three primary colors, I think native RGB LED and Laser light sources are the ideal light sources since they don't require filtering, and the massive amount of light loss that entails.
Thank you for the detailed explanation and illustrations. That does make more sense now that I can look at it from your perspective. I definitely agree that should equate to better overall color with LED and laser light engines since they shouldn't have to be filtered (assuming they are using individual RGB light sources). The only thing I worry about with lasers is the sparkling. I'm sure LED has some cons as well. But it sounds like both should be all around much more efficient than current lamp based models.

And sounds like marketing gimmickry for manufacturers promoting that xenon is better than mercury lamps, since they will both be filtered down to only the primaries (RGB) anyways. Just one has to be filtered a little more than the other.

This stuff makes me want to go back to school to be an engineer. The longer I work in IT, the more I dislike it, LOL! I would much rather be doing A/V stuff, but it would have to be something with a quick return on investment. I just can't afford to take a pay cut. But I better decide soon while I'm young, motivated and passionate.
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post #9887 of 9898 Old 12-12-2014, 06:36 AM
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And sounds like marketing gimmickry for manufacturers promoting that xenon is better than mercury lamps, since they will both be filtered down to only the primaries (RGB) anyways. Just one has to be filtered a little more than the other.
I think if you look at the spectra of Xenon vs UHP, you'll see it's not really gimmicry, though the marketing itself probably is, it's probably easier to give a simple incorrect explanation than to explain the real technical details. Xenon has a "better" spectrum, yes they both need to be filtered, but unlike UHP, Xenon isn't starved for Red so it's easier to filter and requires less "post processing" to get the correct levels. I think it's also easier to get a wider gamut with Xenon (less light loss) since the "native" spectrum of Xenon is wider.

Quote:
This stuff makes me want to go back to school to be an engineer. The longer I work in IT, the more I dislike it, LOL! I would much rather be doing A/V stuff, but it would have to be something with a quick return on investment. I just can't afford to take a pay cut. But I better decide soon while I'm young, motivated and passionate.
I know what you mean.
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post #9888 of 9898 Old 12-12-2014, 07:21 AM
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I think if you look at the spectra of Xenon vs UHP, you'll see it's not really gimmicry, though the marketing itself probably is, it's probably easier to give a simple incorrect explanation than to explain the real technical details. Xenon has a "better" spectrum, yes they both need to be filtered, but unlike UHP, Xenon isn't starved for Red so it's easier to filter and requires less "post processing" to get the correct levels. I think it's also easier to get a wider gamut with Xenon (less light loss) since the "native" spectrum of Xenon is wider.



I know what you mean.
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post #9889 of 9898 Old 12-12-2014, 04:36 PM
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I found the next projector Zombie needs to review:

http://www.amazon.com/Luckies-2968-S...?tag=tmcave-20

Some interesting features:

*New 2.0 Model
*Comes Already Assembled
*New Brown Color
*Works with Android and iphone
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post #9890 of 9898 Old 12-13-2014, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I want one! I bet the native contrast of my S4 will smoke the JVC's in low APL content...
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post #9891 of 9898 Old 12-14-2014, 10:52 PM
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I want one! I bet the native contrast of my S4 will smoke the JVC's in low APL content...
Will you be selling your vw-1100es for this unit, that is the $10,000 question...?

This thread has 679k views, you must have a lot of IP addresses :P
(only kidding)


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post #9892 of 9898 Old 12-14-2014, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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you disappeared for a while, there was a lot of interesting conversations going on. There's a few more good topics coming up.
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I was here invisibly, I just didn't post much because I've seen almost NO new projectors this year in person, except for the hc7900 (which I liked a lot but didn't like the brightness for my setup). I actually thought it was very sharp (the model I had), very very close to the w7000, but it had to be mounted at farthest throw to get the max sharpness. It was sharper than the Mits hc4000. Also I'd rather have had the hc8000 instead.

That said, I kind of wish I had kept the hc7900 (got it on a firestorm blowout sale for $799 I think, but returned it). Now you cannot even find any 3D DLP with an IRIS under $2000 anymore except the Benq, so sad. The Sharps are still $3000+. The IRIS on the Mits didn't work very good, but I'd say it was better than the Benq Iris (Mits was more noticeable, but at least it did something). The Iris on the w7000 just sits there and goes "duh dum duh" until the scene goes 99.9999% black, then it goes OK down.

I hope the DLP makers come out with something new and worthy, but I don't have high hopes because LCOS has taken over DLP sales in the $1500+ realm, unless we are talking $5000+ in which no way am I paying that for a DLP.


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post #9894 of 9898 Old 12-15-2014, 09:03 AM
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3D is really a topic into itself, cine4home does not publish the L/R patterns. The actual details are often very technical, more-so than some other assessment, yet it really is nevertheless hard to gauge the 3D efficiency without the screenshots with the glasses such as we've carried out around the shoot-out threads. It's the 1 moment a screenshot can actually count regarding one thing.
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post #9895 of 9898 Old 12-15-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I think if you look at the spectra of Xenon vs UHP, you'll see it's not really gimmicry, though the marketing itself probably is, it's probably easier to give a simple incorrect explanation than to explain the real technical details. Xenon has a "better" spectrum, yes they both need to be filtered, but unlike UHP, Xenon isn't starved for Red so it's easier to filter and requires less "post processing" to get the correct levels. I think it's also easier to get a wider gamut with Xenon (less light loss) since the "native" spectrum of Xenon is wider.
Yeah, most people couldn't care less how this stuff actually works so it would be a waste of time and resources for manufacturers to even try to get all technical about "why and how" product A is better than product B. Most people just want to press a button and watch the magic happen. But yeah, I definitely understand what you're saying here as it does make sense. I just like to know what's going on behind the scenes so I can better understand and discuss this stuff. So I really do appreciate your time here.

Respectfully,
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post #9896 of 9898 Old 12-15-2014, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
Yeah, most people couldn't care less how this stuff actually works so it would be a waste of time and resources for manufacturers to even try to get all technical about "why and how" product A is better than product B. Most people just want to press a button and watch the magic happen.
Yup, just like trying to figure out Lumens / fL and other measurements, most people don't care.

If anyone does care, I just did some research on why F-Stop calculations do NOT match up to what people measure from shortest to longest throw, and I posted it in my Calc thread (thought about posting it in a new thread, but didn't feel like it).

Since this thread is kind of slow right now, here is the link to what I found for anyone interested:
Why F-Stop Calculations are inaccurate for projectors

...
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Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....


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post #9897 of 9898 Old 12-17-2014, 09:56 AM
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Those L/R 3D test images, where can I find those? Found the DDD website, but are they on some calibration disc?
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post #9898 of 9898 Old Today, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure if they are available on a calibration disk. A friend made me a 3D ISO which is full frame packed, no SBS which i've seen floating around the internet.

no non-DLP's can fully handle this test. I doubt the new Epson LS10000 will be any different. Just to which degree of x-talk will it display + 3D lumen output are some questions I have.

on the topic of 3D, this is an interesting older thread discussing passive setups.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopi...11320&start=80



this whole setup + screen requirements looks a bit painful and not worth the effort.

how much has this changed since 2011? It looks like there are going to be color anomalies for each eye that have to be corrected. This would drive me mad if I didn't see dead on color in each eye, especially since I calibrate behind the glasses.

the color cal workaround does not look fun and seems like the results ended up being 'good enough' but not sure what that will look like.

DIY DOLBY 1080p 3D, Color correction not really needed...

Then there is the topic of passive 3D glasses. I haven't met a pair I liked yet. Most theaters I've been to, including the real Imax @ KOP can introduce x-talk with head movement. especially while panning across the huge screen. With the theaters that use circular polarizers, I can easily see the reflections throughout the theater in 1 eye, blocked in the other. very distracting in my opinion.

overall, if it wasn't for a good active projector, I don't think I would be as big a fan of 3D. The reason I like the DLP's so much is that they can provide a rock solid image (no flicker) and no chance of x-talk. It's just not possible to see on any production 3D bluray out there. This makes the image very sharp and yet easy to view since the 3D image is solid.

I think the reasons some find the 3D discomforting is the flicker on the non-DLP's models. I know many state 'it doesn't flicker, it's not there' - but it is. and some are likely seeing it subconsciously where the brain is saying 'stop' 1/2 way through a movie.

I've posted these before and while the camera exaggerates the effect, it's easy to see why the DLP's look as 'solid' in 3D as they do in 2D. I can watch several 3D movies back to back and not feel the eye strain I would otherwise on some of my other projectors.



The obvious downfall on the DLP's is the contrast, but the majority of 3D content doesn't contain a lot of very low APL scenes. Most 3D enthusiast would agree the holy grail would be DLP performance with JVC contrast.

regarding active 3D glasses, I realize some people do not like to wear 3D glasses, especially over prescription glasses. I have seen and used countless 3D glasses over the last 4 years. To this date, the best so far are the Sharp G20 glasses. I wear prescription glasses and these are so comfortable and a great viewing area, they just disappear for me. The G30's perform equally well and are for smaller faces / kids. It's a shame these only work on the Sharp 30k, I would use them with every 3D projector I have if it were possible.

G20 upper left, G30 center




3D is dead. long live 3D.. Some of the best stuff has to be imported

David Attenborough's Natural History Museum Alive 3D
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post #9899 of 9898 Old Today, 11:24 AM
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"3D is dead. long live 3D.. Some of the best stuff has to be imported."

The bias in North America against 3D is the main reason I purchased the Teranex 3D processor. Homeland, Game of Thrones, Marco Polo, The Bridge, Hinterland, Broad Church, The Killing, etc., all look great in 3D. Many of Hollywood's 2D efforts also look great in 3D.

Fortunately, I now have the Teranex working with my HD-DVD player, which has given me some new 3D content.

Basically I've given Disney and others, who btw encouraged consumers to buy into 3D and then abandoned them, the middle finger. It kinda feels good!

Last edited by Deja Vu; Today at 11:27 AM.
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